Cyberprostitution in There
by Alphaville Herald on 05/08/04 at 5:08 am
Seems like just yesterday that everyone was all exercised by reports of cyberprostitution on TSO. But like, it *is* the oldest profession (if not the cyber part), so why be surprised? More recently we’ve learned about Cyber escort services in Second Life. And now, finally, There has what every MMORPG needs — a bald journalist with the nutty idea that MMORPG newspapers should be more than just boosterish fanzines. Mondo Kane, of the Caldera Sun Times in There dropped in on an escort auction, and gives us the skinny, so to speak. Along the way, he raises the issue of underage cyberprostitution, which apparently has been a topic on There’s message boards of late. Oh and apart from being a great writer, Mondo has some interesting observations to, such as…
…these remarks.
“The presence of escort agencies is not the problem here. Some mentalists, mainly the ones with the problem with people showing their underwear, might say they contribute to the social downfall of There. That though is naivety of the worst kind. The enemy here is the Thereian economy and our own greed, a double-whammy that knocks morals and ethics for six. If it was easier to make money here it might not be such a problem. But while we remain stuck with the choice of either hosting celebrity parties, trading our spare time out to strangers, swapping cybersex for money or peddling our brain matter to readers, we?ll just keep selling out. Morality, in the greater scale of things here, can only ever get bent over the board room table and given it, good and hard.”
Doesn't matter
Aug 5th, 2004
This is so BULLSHIT! The auctions in there is NOT for prostitution. You need to get your facts straight before you start posting crap like this! All this site is, is a damn drama site! *rolls eyes*
*signed…. a current THERE Escort*
Fallan
Aug 5th, 2004
I oblige you to get your facts straight and do some research the next tiem you slandor a perfectly respectable club. You can’t always go by the name alone. I have been working for the escorts for several months, we do not exchange sexual favors of anytype, in fact the most intimate thing I have ever heard of any of the escorts doing was sitting on a sofa and telling a bid winner her life story. The there escorts is a perfectly innocent and fun way for people to make a little money in a rather defunct economy, Much of this clubs revenue is also donated to there charities….Next tiem do your research before you do your slander.
Fallan
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
Well it’s not our article, but tell us: what are the facts that Mr. Kane and the Caldera Sun Times got wrong? He wasn’t there? There was no auction? They weren’t called escorts? Kaya didn’t go for 12,000 Therebucks? You know, if you call yourself an escort and auction yourself off to someone — even if it’s ::cough:: just ::cough:: for some lap sitting and life story swapping ::cough:: — well what do you expect exactly? A “perfectly respectable” club that hosts virtual female slave auctions. Good one!
Oh and the Herald a drama site????? Heaven forfend! This is a perfectly respectable virual newspaper!
Cocoanut
Aug 5th, 2004
“The Second Life Herald: Your Guide to the Seamy Side”
coco
doesn't matter
Aug 5th, 2004
Slave? WTF? Where did you get that information? Did this site interview any of the escorts and what we do? Hell no! You need to get your shit straight before you start posting idiotic statements like this Uri! You are a total ass and have relly made yourself look like one this time! Noone is Escorts is a slave. We are casual players and I have never been asked for a sexual favor. That is not the point to the club. If you go to the club’s website you will understand that, but you’re such as ass that you have to make stupid assumptions instead!
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
OK, you don’t like the word ‘slave’ (and presumably also ‘indentured servant’) so we’ll just call it an “escort auction.” Was there or was there not an “escort auction”? Was there or was there not a winning bid of 12,000 Therebucks for Kayla? Why are you ducking these questions? And I don’t doubt that the club web site says there is no exchange of sexual favors. That’s what web sites of r/l prostitutes say too.
The interesting conceptual question is when are you a r/p prostitute? Is it only when you drop into web cam and show your r/l stuff? Is it when you engage in ascii sex chat? or is it when you call yourself an escort and allow yourself to be auctioned off? Maybe you want to say that it’s not cyberprostitution until people start typing with one hand. Well, when you are sitting in that buyer’s lap, how do you know s/he *isn’t* typing with one hand.
But just for the record, I don’t believe this no cybering line for a nanosecond.
Coco: “The Second Life Herald: Your Guide to the Seamy Side”
lol, I prefer to think of it as the *steamy* side…
Doesn't matter
Aug 5th, 2004
Believe what you want to believe asshole but until you talk directly to us and make an appearance in THERE, then shut up. I don’t know you have only heard of you and you really need to stop the bashing until you know all of the facts and can post a true story instead of something second hand. You make assumptions on what you want to believe, not what you know. Yes, Kaya probably was auctioned that night for 12K but that DOES NOT mean that she did a sexual favor. To be honest it is just a fun way to trade money. Noone in the club has to do anything they don’t want to and I haven’t heard of one person doing a sexual act. It is all out of fun and games and you are trying to make it look like something bad and illicit. Why don’t you come buy a date, or a spades partner, or someone to just hang out and chat with and just see what we will or won’t do? Then maybe then you can post a true story. Idiot.
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
Look, I didn’t write the article. All I did was link to it, and you have yet to dispute one fact in the article. So again I ask: what were the errors?
And for the record, I really don’t care if it’s cybersex for pay, as long as the participants are adults. I don’t see why that would be either bad or illicit. All I’m saying is that your pleas that no cybering was involved just don’t wash. Now if it happens that there was no cybering then there was no cybering. You are still roleplaying as prostitutes. All that follows is that the dude who paid 12,000 Therebucks needs to get most of his money back.
Doesn't matter
Aug 5th, 2004
Well to get you to shut up… The club leader makes sure that members are adults.
What business is it of yours what that guy does with his money or what happens when the event is over? If you are not a THERE player, then I don’t see that any of this is your business in the first place.
And to add another note… the guy that did the original story spoke with Kaya and did an excellent article, unlike the trashing you have done. He is a little bit more open minded than you have been here. This is awful what you have done.
Also if you don’t care, then why in the hell are you trying to cause such problems? If you are not a member/player then leave well enough alone!
Kale
Aug 5th, 2004
12K for a “spades partner?” That’s rich. At any rate, this article linked to a report of interest from the Caldera Sun Times, and I would think your beef really would be with them. So why are hurling invectives at my editor? (Although, I must admit to succumbing to that temptation on occasion myself, sometimes for no better reason than ‘it tickles me’).
I’ve got it. Maybe it was because above he mistyped: “This is a perfectly respectable virual newspaper!” You have to understand. He’s a busy man. Ah, the ol’ journalistic conundrum: who is to edit the editor? Uri, my friend, I’ll help you out. What he meant is: This is a perfectly respectable virtual newspaper!” Sufficient?
(I spent all morning pondering this, and decided that was the best edit. There’s still a 50/50 chance that he meant: “This is a perfectly respectable viral newspaper!” Oddly, that seems to fit just as well— during my heavy editorial research, I consulted the dictionary on this crucial edit, and “viral” was defined as “pertaining to something that poisons one’s soul or mind.” So, Uri, if I got the edit wrong, I apologize. I had to do *something* to appease the readers. Oh, but this is a grueling business!)
-Kale
Doesn't matter
Aug 5th, 2004
Oh it is viral allright!
*runs off laughing*
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
Hmm I like the idea that this is a viral newspaper. Watch out for textually transmitted diseases. Which brings me back to…
Ms. Doesn’t Matter. What are you talking about “trashing”? All I did was link to the article, and since you obviously failed to read what I wrote, I give you the relevant passage here:
” Mondo Kane, of the Caldera Sun Times in There dropped in on an escort auction, and gives us the skinny, so to speak. Along the way, he raises the issue of underage cyberprostitution, which apparently has been a topic on There’s message boards of late. Oh and apart from being a great writer, Mondo has some interesting observations to, such as…”[quote follows]
That’s it. Now where is the trashing? Honestly, cyberbrothels are AOK in my book, especially since you guys do adult verification for Club members. Hmmm, wonder why you do that if there’s no cybering. But anyway, I say embrace your cybersexuality! Come out of the cybercloset!
And finally, why is this not my business? This paper covers events in all MMORPGs. There is part of our beat. Oh and by the way, I am a subscriber of There.
Cocoanut
Aug 5th, 2004
Which reminds me. Thrilled that I am that you have started taking more interest in other online games and have (basically) renamed your scandal sheet in favor of another online game rather than TSO, I think you should come up with a new name altogether.
Since this rag covers potentially all online games, why not come up with a new title that reflects that? Something that more accurately depicts the fact that all games can be covered in your paper.
And then, of course, use the subhead, suggested in my previous post (either as originally written, or with your variation), in the title. It wouldn’t hurt, in terms of amount of readership attracted, and would also further delineate the thrust (so to speak) of this web site.
coco
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
thought about that, but if you think about it most papers that cover the entire world have home town names: New York Times, Washington Post, etc. Second Life is of course the name of the MORPG,but it also has a more generic meaning. Some people think that Alphaville was generic enough already. I dunno. Now the name is what it is.
Ian
Aug 5th, 2004
Why not just, MMORPG Herald, It does have a wrong to it after a while. But I do like how you point out, prostitution is the oldest profession, which it is, it dates back to “biblical” times. So you can only expect it
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
Actually, before there were prostitutes there were kvetchers. They used to come into your caves and bitch about your cave paintings. Nowadays, they just come to your blog and bitch about the articles.
Ian
Aug 5th, 2004
LOL
Mr. T
Aug 5th, 2004
I swear you all have no life. It cant be prostitution if nobody meets each other in real life. Who cares if young teens (or lonley30 year olds) act like pornstars and pimps, its just a game. Just be like me and laugh at all the pitiful morons who have a fetish for a digital avatar who gets “naked” and dances around. There is no sex in cybersex, you would get rid of more sexual tension (if thats what u call it) by watching fat people do yoga.
And thats that……..
VIPERESS
Aug 5th, 2004
Boy oh Boy oh Boy…. well ya know i dont normally venture in to these type of game bashing, ppl bashing forums BUT…. many of MY Escorts of There, and yes this is MY club you are talking about, have sent me many emails in regards to this crap about what my club intails… well here ya all go for your injoyment… There Escort Services in There has been run now for almost a year and the only escort club IN THERE that has lasted… why you may ask… well the reason is avies of There make good money with me. We dont cyber unlike many OTHER Escort clubs that have tried to make a buck or two inside the game. as for the review at CST you DID NOT read it very well did you? if you had you would have seen that the reporter did come to one of our auctions to confirm there was no harm in what WE did and the reason he chose us is we have been running the longest and have the MOST members. you are very well free to contact any of my escorts and ask what they do with their dates and the customers that attend EVERY week at our auctions….. oh wait did i not read some where that your not a member of THERE? i could be wrong…. oh well regardless, i have read this kinda missinformed crap before in the THERE forums and have set the record staright so yet again here i am doing it with this place…. and for your information we do not JUST have female esorts we have many MALE escorts too. and let me tell you some of them make way more money than the females so lets not get all iffy on the fact that my females are in anyway sleazy. here is my email for any one to contridict me or what i or my CLASSY escorts do in There. viperess_ourtease@msn.com. Maybe you should have one of your snoops venture into There some time and have alook at what accually goes on, go ahead feel free I have nothing to hide. if you ask around you will see that any of my escorts found cybering or whom is under 18 is automaticly REMOVED from my club this club is run as if it were a real RL company with a board of directors, and payslips with earnings sent to those who wish it records are kept and names are marked. So believe me i take There Escorts Services seriously due to the fact that this is how some of us make an earning insiide the game we are not all designers nore are we all great at other ways of makeing money in the game and wish not to spend our hard earned Real Life money on a game in order to shop of buy new items inside so before you allbash something you do not have the facts on maybe you should contact the inventor, owner etc of the topic you are thrashing before you print the crap you do. Im sure there will be a few cyber haters commenting on this post i made faster than you can say baby get your clothes of so i can fondal your AVIE butt!!! LOL LOL LOL but i realy dont give a crap LOL
Later!
Viperess Out,
OWNER of There Escort Services.
(Untill There is off-Line)
UrAnus
Aug 5th, 2004
Every virtual world has to have a Jerry Springer. Just be lucky that Uri has decided to be an ass in all of them, and limits the need for others to try and mimic.
Kitia
Aug 5th, 2004
An fyi myself and a few of my djs are memebers of the there escort. I fully support what vamp is doing not if you look up in a dicttionary the meaning of escort and prostiute you will get tow different things prostitute- someone who sells there body for money (sexually)
escort- someone who sells time for money etc like spending time with someone who just needs someone to talk to I have been affilated with this club for a while now and not once have I ever seen someone cybering etc sorry you are just upset because you have not been invited to join this great club and great family of people. oh btw we do occascionally do live broadcasts of the auctions at the radio station I own, if it was a prostitution ring so to speak I would not be giving them my full support
toy
Aug 5th, 2004
Viperess, one would easily assume, since you use the term MY, that you own them? are they slaves? if not why oh why would you refer to them as YOURS?
falara kajira toy
urizenus
Aug 5th, 2004
Kitia, in the real world the difference between a prostitute and an escort is this: the escort is a prostitute that *claims* to just supply companionship *wink* *wink*. I mean seriously, look up ‘escorts’ in the phone book or on google and see what you find. Call one and see what shows up at the door.
Viperess, you’re not the greatest reader yourself, since I said that I *am* on There, and secondly all I did was link to the article without editorializing (except to say that the article was well written), so what is your beef with me anyway?
Honestly you guys, your panic attack over a simple link to an article is really starting to make me wonder the ladies aren’t protesting a bit too much. Whether “your girls” provide cyber or not really doesn’t matter in the least to me. I certainly don’t think they would be “classier” if they didn’t cyber. Cybering between adults is OK in my book. Honest! And if you think you are “classier” than someone who choses to cyber you are just deluding yourself.
Finally, let’s say that there is no cybering and that you can pay 12K Therebucks and get a nice game of Spades with a female-presenting avatar companion. You call that an experience with a classy escort. On TSO they call that getting scammed.
Lada
Aug 6th, 2004
>>>> Finally, let’s say that there is no cybering and that you can pay 12K Therebucks and get a nice game of Spades with a female-presenting avatar companion. You call that an experience with a classy escort. On TSO they call that getting scammed.
Hey, I could make that game of cards, HOTT and STEAMY, if you know what I mean. *wink wink* haha.
Honestly, I would feel jipped if I didn’t get a good hour of it (assuming of course I won a male)
Lada
Aug 6th, 2004
>>>> Finally, let’s say that there is no cybering and that you can pay 12K Therebucks and get a nice game of Spades with a female-presenting avatar companion. You call that an experience with a classy escort. On TSO they call that getting scammed.
Hey, I could make that game of cards, HOTT and STEAMY, if you know what I mean. *wink wink* haha.
Honestly, I would feel jipped if I didn’t get a good hour of it (assuming of course I won a male)
Candace
Aug 6th, 2004
I think this thread has brought up quite an interesting point, which Uri alluded to in his last comment. Whether one takes a particular game very seriously or adopts the “chrimminy, it’s *just* a game” attitude, the role-playing in these games may at least give us insight into how people view things in the world. In particular, the hullabaloo here seems to come down to what I see as a disturbing passing of judgment, or maybe an outright prejudice, against prostitutes. They are a “lower class” of person, so lowly that great pains have been taken by ‘VIPERESS,’ ‘Fallan,’ and ‘Doesn’t matter’ to distance themselves from that occupation, and by using terms like “classy” and “respectable” to describe their escort service, the implication is that those terms don’t properly apply to (cyber) prostitutes. What does it say that a group of people are treated in such a manner? In the real world, problems with legality and dealing with some of the stigma that it seems is appearing here, make it understandable that someone selling sexual services would want (or need) to distance themselves from admitting it. It’s also an unfortunate fact, that men and women may end up selling sexual services because they’ve been pressured or coerced into that option. (This, I believe, is deplorable only for the same reasons that it’s wrong for anyone to be forced/pressured into anything they would rather not do). In-game, (here, we’re assuming only adults are involved) these real-world issues shouldn’t have any bearing. Yet, still noone seems to want to be associated with prostitution. (Despite the misconception here to the contrary, the one exception I’m certain of is Uri who has spoken out publicly for the legalization of prostitution w/ appropriate medical access regulations). If truly free (absent coercion), rational, adult men and women make a conscious, careful, deliberate decision that such a lifestyle is right for them, then why the hell don’t they deserve absolutely as much respect as any individual? Whether one decides that such a lifestyle if for them or not, do we really want to end up treating anyone like a social pariah? Why is a large portion of this thread *so* vehemently trying to make the point: “we’re not like *those* people?” In a game where tricky real life complications are absent, a whole group of people *still* are apparently often granted inferior status. We should think about this and how it might relate to (or what it may disclose about) the equal treatment of individuals in society.
Viperess
Aug 6th, 2004
LOL I knew there would be somecomments made and and i had a thought that Urizenus would make a mark once again in defence. so here i am again. I think this is funny myself.
Urizenus quotes: “Viperess, you’re not the greatest reader yourself, since I said that I *am* on There, and secondly all I did was link to the article without editorializing (except to say that the article was well written), so what is your beef with me anyway?”
Viperess quotes: “oh wait did i not read some where that your not a member of THERE? i could be wrong…. oh well regardless”
Listen hun i have no “beef” with you i have aproblem with the fact that There Escort Services gets targeted EVERY time this kinda topic gets brought up, wht not bring up the ones that clearly have made their club prostiting in the boneyard for T’s in exchange for cybering and some of the members are found to be under 18, and when that club was brought up, my club was accused of said acts. No one ever seems to want to get to the truth and just takes on the assumption that ALL escorts clubs in There are the same we are not! Also i say “MY” because yes the club is mine and yes the escorts be long tome and the club but NO by no means do i own them they are free to come and go to the events they are not held to attend the auction every week, and they are deffently FREE to leave the club at any time. So dont go assuming that i own these avies. You know i sat there last night with my husband (RL)talkling about this issue thats once again been brought to light and i am so friggin sick and tired of ppl going around and talking like they know all when none of these ppl have ever once talked to me first to find the real deal… this is sad that ppl have no life yet to gossip about others and putting them down i see this also in RL and i feel bad that those that do really and clearly have nothing better to do.
As for the “simple Link” its not the link you connected to its your post in regards to said link, that clearly had ppl talking and gave an opion on. Everyone has the right to free speach i have no problem with this. I quote my husband when i say “shit…they should saty off the net if they so hate the cybering, look at MSN chat, look at ICQ, look at almost everygame out there when male and female come together there is going to be some form of cyber, flirting etc”
You know just to piss everyone off and give everyone something good to talk about im going to march into There and i am going to be the slut of all Avies i am going to flirt with every darn male and female Avie i come accross, and cyber till my toy’s batteries runs low, for hell….why not i am supposed to be a sleazy prostitue anyways right. who knows i may have FUN!!!
now… where the hell are those new batteries i just bought????
Doesn't matter
Aug 6th, 2004
Very well said Vipe!
*tu and blowkiss*
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
Viperess, *of course* you are going to be lumped in with cyberprostitution if you call yourself an escort service. I mean, just what do you think a real life escort service is??? Change the name or something. You’ll get less “bad press” and fewer customers who feel they bought something under false pretenses.
But again, and coming back to Candace’s comment, just what is so bad about cyber-prostitution in the first place? Your revulstion at the notion of being lumped with prostitutes and insistance that your escorts are “classy” suggests a kind of moral (or social) superiority over r/l prostitutes that I just don’t think is warranted, and is more than a little creepy.
So here we are. You’ve made a distinction that doesn’t exist in the real world — between escorts and prostitutes — and you want to r/p as escorts but not prostitutes, and you wonder why no one can see your invented distinction. Then you cop a bizzare attitude of superiority over both prostitutes and cyberprostitutes, not seeing that *we* don’t have a problem with either prostitutes or cyber-prostitutes. Then you crash our blog and start ranting at us for a simple uneditorialized link to an article that you claim to have no objection too. I mean your position is so many ways unstable I’m suprised you can mangage to stay on your chair when you post here. You must be dizzy from your phantom distinctions, inconsistencies, and plain old confusions.
Doesn't matter
Aug 6th, 2004
Just shut-up already uri-ass.
LMAO
Tutu
Aug 6th, 2004
Where the hell do you people get off calling us “prostitutes” and “slaves”. IF you have ever been to an Escort Auction then you would see that those 2 terms are way off base. And not to mention slanderous. You should know better then to state something that isn’t true, or supported by hard core evidence. Let me guess, actually going out and getting the facts is a little too much work. I happen to be an escort and a Board of Director and can state for a fact that the There Escorts is as clean as the driven snow. The only sexual goings on that happens is a little flirtation. Which I might add is human nature, NOT, prostitution or slavery. I can’t figure how someone like you can post something like this when you can’t even get the facts right. It all comes back to the facts. And if there are people out there that share the same mindless dribble as you and have themselves NEVER been to an auction are just as clueless as you are. AND THAT’S A FACT. So now in front of everyone…I’m calling you out. I dare you to attend an auction, and all you other haters, and face the facts as they truly are. Then maybe you’ll have half the brain to retract your statement and apologise for your half witted views that you deem to stand by. Maybe you’ll find that the There Escorts dont equal cyber sex and prostitution. Or Slavery as Urizenus stated. BTW, Urizenus, that cough might be helped if you took your foot out of your mouth. You told how much you knew when you stated female escorts instead of escorts in general.That just showed us all how much you DON’T need to say anything on the subject. So please do us all a favor and pick your face up doll. You look rediculous. So in closing my “Calling Out” still stands for those who posted on something they have no idea or proof to base these posts on. And I’ll be looking for retractions very soon.
I mean really people…GOD blessed us all with brains cells…USE THEM. Common sense goes along way in the real world and in the virtual world.
Darbi
Aug 6th, 2004
OMG!! I own bunnies??!!! I am the club leader for Playboy Bunnies in There!!! Does that mean I have to set my bunnies free!? And do bunnies cyber???? IF they do, do they only cyber with other bunnies or do they cyber with other animals? For the people that DON’T have a RL maybe you can answer these questions. Because I don’t know, I just have fun in There! It’s a great place, and I ALSO am an Escort in There! I wanna know why no one has asked me to cyber. I’m getting a complex now…sheeeesh!! Viperess has a great club, and does an awesome job with it. In fact, I am going to get with Viperess and set up an Escort Auction to combine with Playboy Bunnies in There. Doesn’t everyone want a “bunny” for Easter?!!
Viperess you keep up the great work!! I am proud to be a There Escort!!!
Proudly signed,
Darbi
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
You Therians need a remedial reading course or something.
You think: we are saying that you are prostitutes and that this is bad.
We in fact are saying: we don’t agree with the attitude of moral superiority to prostitutes (r/l or cyber) that you are copping.
How many times do we have to repeat this point before you are able to grasp it?
Fallan
Aug 6th, 2004
Well, I have’nt posted here again because I truelly have better thigns to do then concern myself with mindless ramblings. I just had to High 5 my sisters, Vipe and Tutu for their elequent entries. I always find it rather humerous to watch people stumble over themselves, and insult others to make them selves seem liek a better man after they realize they’ve made a complete moranic ass of themselves. I am most certainly sure that Urianass has learned his lesson and next time will do a much better and concise job with his research before making such assinine assumptions.
~Fallan
Over and Out
Fallan
Aug 6th, 2004
Wow Uri, playing a little heavy on the word “WE” there. It seems to me that most posts here are in disagreement with your close minded self important ramblings. You really do need to jsut get over yourself, run back to your TSO, play your little game and let live let live…Now I really am out.
~ Fallan
Lara
Aug 6th, 2004
I’m in “we”
Candace
Aug 6th, 2004
“Aye” to what Lara said. However, guess noone is willing to look at the issue *we* wanted to move onto here and Uri concisely summed up in the last post. Bummer. I think it’s a good one.
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
“we” meaning the Herald staff.
You guys still don’t seem to be able to grasp the point. we are not judging you. we are asking you to stop judging r/l and virtual prostitutes. You are not better and you are not ‘classier’, in spite of all your mutual back slapping.
Cocoanut
Aug 6th, 2004
They are morally superior to people who have sex for money. They are better and they are classier.
I’ll continue to make that judgement, just as you will continue to make the judgement that your judgment that no judgements are applicable is the morally superior judgement.
coco
Candace
Aug 6th, 2004
In what way are people who choose not to have sex for money “better” and “classier”? What sort of system of moral judgments, what initial presumptions, are you accepting to arrive at that conclusion?
Your point that we’re all engaging in making judgments is well taken. I don’t wish to deny that. That is, in fact, the very issue I’d like us all to consider. So, I think it’s an inaccurate statement to classify our position as “no judgments are applicable.” My position is that all individuals deserve to be accorded *equal* moral status without regard to whether they have decided to sell sexual services as an occupation.
Cocoanut
Aug 6th, 2004
I would not judge everyone to be of equal moral status because doing so would render the word itself meaningless.
This notion that nothing can be judged is predicated on the assumption that we are all nincompoops anyway.
Moral: a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one’s conscience or ethical judgment
If you wish to excise the word from your vocabulary, fine – I’m not going to argue with you about it.
coco
Cocoanut
Aug 6th, 2004
Don’t know why part of that is in gold; didn’t intend it to do that.
coco
toy
Aug 6th, 2004
hmmmm. toy doesnt remeber calling anyone a slave, did ask a simple question about it is all
I dont need to resort to name calling to get my point across 
BTW… Just what the hell is wrong with being a slave anyway 
falara kajira toy
Candace
Aug 6th, 2004
coco,
I believe you’re still misunderstanding me. I have conceded that we’re both engaging in making moral judgments so I haven’t “exercised” that notion from my vocabulary or this discussion. I want to understand better why you’ve come to the conclusion that selling sexual services should lead to a judgment that one has a lower moral standing and you’ve failed to give me principles that you are employing to come to that conclusion. Let me give you an example. Some occupations, say being a “hitman,” might lead me to make a moral judgment that such a person is to be held in lower regard, despite the general principle that I hold to that people deserve equal moral respect, regardless of occupation. This would be because I also hold the principle that it is wrong to kill and injure people for profit. You (and many others, it seems) regard people who sell sexual services for money in low regard. What moral principle are you using in forming that judgment?
That is the crux of what I’m trying to understand.
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
lol, too funny Toy. I think if we asked the Therians if they were bipeds they would be offended by that too. “How dare you call us bipeds! We are two legged!”
Coco, we need to be very careful to distinguish between adopting a set of mores that is outside the “mainstream” and rejecting morality all together. Candace and I aren’t rejecting morality; to the contrary we are saying that in addition to many other things (most of which the three of us would agree on), the moral person would treat the sex worker as equal and not as someone who is evil, lower class, or a moral inferior.
Cocoanut
Aug 6th, 2004
Exactly, Candace and Uri.
If you were to maintain that you made no moral judgements whatsoever, you would probably not be posting here, since you would have been thoroughly lobotomized.
And here is Uri’s judgement:
“You guys still don’t seem to be able to grasp the point. we are not judging you. we are asking you to stop judging r/l and virtual prostitutes. You are not better and you are not ‘classier’, in spite of all your mutual back slapping.”
In your judgement, you consider the question of prostitution (whether in contrast to a squeaky-clean virtual escort service or to anything else) not up for grabs for making moral judgements about, period.
And why not? Because – YOU have decided it’s not up for grabs. YOU don’t think they are any better or any classier for not offering sex services along with their escort service.
Because you, yourself, consider prostitution a morally neutral practice, you judge anyone who doesn’t agree as being unnecessarily judgemental.
Ironic, huh?
And now you and Candace would like to make sure everyone accept this as the premise from which we should all operate. In fact, you apparently can’t see any reason why everyone doesn’t automatically accept your moral viewpoints. Apparently you think yours are better, more enlightened.
You judge them to be “sex workers.” I judge them to be prostitutes. You demand we all accept the stance that what “sex workers” do is morally equivalent to what “non-sex workers” do. You browbeat these people from There for daring to think their escort service might be a cut above the classic prostitution escort service, because – YOU don’t think it is.
You apparently think they don’t have a right to their own opinion. You think we all have a right only to your opinion, and to your judgement.
You further think that your judgement is somehow superior to mine. Apparently I have a right only to make moral judgements which manage to correspond with your own moral judgements.
Sorry; no can do.
coco
P.S. Candace, read more carefully – I said “excise,” not “exercise.”
Candace
Aug 6th, 2004
coco,
I apologize for bracketing “exercise” when you used “excise”— I meant no offense; it was *my* mistake.
To return to the larger point, I’m not asking anyone to cast out morals (which was the thrust of your first response), and I’m not asking people to adopt my exact code of ethics. I can respect many points of view, but I don’t yet understand yours. You’ve provided no reasoning (and it’s not incumbent upon you to do so, but it would help me perhaps to understand you better). I can absolutely see why many would not want to engage in prostitution because they hold beliefs (religious, for instance) which are contrary to that practice. I don’t think such people are unethical; that’s ridiculous. People have a right to a variety of postions and views, and I can respect that and I don’t wish to challenge *that* notion. I take that as fundamental, and I have to let you know that does not follow from my argument so again we’re talking past each other and I don’t see the point of your last message. I’ve repeatedly set out this proposition as fundamental: regardless of occupation, all persons should be accorded equal moral status. I tried to give you a clear example of how I could understand how that principle may be overridden by another principle (i.e., “hitmen/women” kill and it is wrong to kill for profit……”). You repeatedly have stated that people who engage in prostitution are inferior. You say we’re demanding that “sex workers” are morally equivalent to other workers, and we refuse to accept any other stance. Given my earlier proposition (that I would hope many would except): “All people should be granted equal moral standing, regardless of occupation,” then sex workers indeed shouldn’t be discriminated against and are not inferior. You have every right to a different opinion, but you still haven’t given me any *principle* that you use to form your judgement. Without such a principle it seems that we have a form of prejudice/discrimination that seriously conflicts with notions of equality that many hold deeply and I think it’s really worth exploring that, and how these role-playing games might reflect that and give us insight into that.
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
Coco says: “You apparently think they don’t have a right to their own opinion. You think we all have a right only to your opinion, and to your judgement”
Where on Earth is this coming from? Not only do I think you have a right to your opinion but I obviously think you have a right to share it here on *my* blog.
More Coco: “You further think that your judgement is somehow superior to mine. Apparently I have a right only to make moral judgements which manage to correspond with your own moral judgements.”
Coco, all I said was that there is a big difference between rejecting a moral claim about the alleged evils of prostitution and having no morals whatsoever — which seems to be what you were imputing. I wasn’t even defending my position or criticising yours. I was just saying that rejecting one of Coco’s moral claims is not the same thing as rejecting morality totally, or even a little bit. It is just to say that we are endorsing a different set of values. Nor is it to say that there is not one set of correct values, nor that one couldn’t have a sensible debate about this nor that you couldn’t persuade us that we are wrong. It is just to say that rejecting the alleged evils of prostitution is not equivalent to rejecting morality. It is not even close to that.
Seriously Coco, you reasoning skills today are soggier than usual. Have you been hanging out on There?
12k John
Aug 6th, 2004
LOL..you people are such losers.For your information,and since your facts are non- existent..and you have no clue wtf you are even talking about…I was the one who paid 12k for Kaya that night.I have a few million ThereBucks at my disposal..and since Kaya is my girlfriend…I bid on her in the auction just for fun and for “role play”.And since me and her are well over 30,what we do is our OWN business.LOL what a bunch of douchebags.
p.s.If you know any underage girls for cyber-prostitution..send them my way…like I say..I have extra ThereBucks.
signed 12k John.
Cocoanut
Aug 6th, 2004
And I’m not going to give you any explanation about why I or anyone else would consider prostituting to be morally inferior to non-prostituting.
Since yours is distinctly the minority opinion, it would be more your responsibility to provide an explanation of your view.
As for whose views on morality are morally superior, Uri said:
“the moral person would treat the sex worker as equal and not as someone who is evil, lower class, or a moral inferior.”
This is an interesting observation, but apropos of nothing we’re discussing here.
We’re not talking about how one treats an individual, but about how one views an individual in moral terms.
Uri’s comment, coming as it does in the context of this conversation, suggests that neither should we view a prostitute as morally wrong in any way; otherwise we are not being moral individuals ourselves.
I believe both you and Uri consider prostitution to be an amoral thing and that to think otherwise is immoral in itself.
Seems to me that when it became pretty clear to the average reader that no sexual services were exchanged in the There escort club, you switched tactics.
You decided to focus instead on their indignation at being considered prostitutes, and to suggest that they aren’t good people for feeling indignant at the suggestion that they were prostitutes.
This is not only a low tactic; its rationale is coming from a pretty wacky corner in the first place.
coco