If You’re Going to San Francisco…
by prokofy on 27/06/07 at 2:04 am
By Prokofy Neva, Dept. of Hippy Dippy Trippy Tips on Trips
You might be stuck on your laggy sim, with thousands of inventory items missing or inaccessible, with group IMs frozen, and your build mysteriously destroyed — or out in negative space or up in the air 2500 m2, something that the new wonky, scratchy First Look Voice thingie seems to do to me often. But that’s ok, because you can look up from your toil and trouble, pushing prims in one of SL’s worst business slumps, and know that your Betters are going to a better place. Yes, 8 lucky fanboyz and fangurlz have been selected from across the entire grid (Ok, from a Lindens’ friendship card list but you get the point) to go all-expense-paid to San Francisco, for their own personal Summer of Love, with our favourite fatty smokin’ phat friends, the Lindenz.
Oh, did you forget about the Octocracy? Well, it never went away, although it disappeared from view because the Lindens stopped publishing information about the agenda, the notes — and most important — the participants. Like the leader board that disappeared because the people on it didn’t like the publicity (accountability?), the list of the Lucky 8s is now kept hidden, likely at the request of the people who participate — who don’t want to be branded as part of the Feted Inner Core?
But thanks to our busy investigative reporters and the assiduous works of trusty tipsters, we’re building at least a partial list at the Herald. No, *you* aren’t going to be on the list, because the invitations already went out and it’s convening this Thursday June 28 in SF at Linden Lane in the town of trolleys.
Five of those going include not only the movers and shakers of the SL land biz and stock market world but representatives of the Metaversal Myrmidons and the super lucky recipients of the Orientation newbie stream.
Cory Edo, one of the top designers and builders of the Electric Sheep Company, known for her building and tekkie skills and her very early walk-through of Copybot for the denizens of Second Citizen, has been a staunch defender of her company’s Searchbot, the avatar Grid Shepherd, an invasive robot that spiders the grid, picking up all the information about stuff for sale and feeding it, unasked, to a master database — until you opt out.
Dirk Talamaska, formerly of Anshechung.com, is a land dealer who sells private islands, a member of SL Certification Devs (my God, remember THAT? it didn’t go away!), and maker of Orientation Station, a newbie training center that along with others in a select Linden project, is getting a cut of the raw newbie stream of secondlife.com as their companies’ loss-leader fodder. I argued with him for an hour about the principles of open bidding systems; we even carried the debate into an office hour with Philip Linden and long after, but I failed in getting him to see the benefits of not only having his company be handed newbie customers, but have an open system in a free market so that people could genuinely bid and compete with various innovations and services.
Shaun Altman, owner of Cyberlands, a island selling business, and also scripter of the World Stock Exchange — an outfit that he later cashed out large amounts from, and criticized for engaging in overvaluation of their builds and stock and self-dealing. Shaun still maintains a stock portfolio in WSE.
Huns Valen, a long-time resident and beta-era tester, cited by Philip Linden recently as inventor of an aircraft script that he found invaluable for the grid. Valen was once criticized on the old Linden forums by a number of residents for being photographed together with W-hat griefers in a post grid-crashing victory-dance. Huns continues to back W-hat and does not condemn its griefing members, saying that the whole organization shouldn’t be tarred with the same brush.
Angel Fluffy is a noted BDSM authority and master of the group Capture Roleplay, numbering some 2,000, a roleplay involving the chasing and raping of prey by predators, evidently mainly furries. It’s not likely to be found by the Lindens to be “broadly offensive” as Angel has taken care to keep his Linden connections flowing, alerting the anti-griefer S.L.A.M. group recently that he had a list of the online Lindens and would share it with those he deemed deserving of the privilege. Angel took over the reform of the Feature Voting tool and made a group with only himself as officer, three Lindens, including Jean Linden, and without the right to send notices out. Don’t try to vote “no,” however, as Fluffy opposes the effort some residents have made to convince the Lindens to enable the voting device to vote “no”.
Snapshot baron and Second Citizen maven Cristiano Midnight was invited, but said he had to get his nails done and won’t be going. If anyone has any more names to add — there are three more — you can write me at dyerbrookME@juno.com.
In addition to these residents, I understand some 14 Lindens will be in attendance.
I could start in trying to explain what picture of the grid the Lindens will get from these august personages, but I think my bios have in part done that job for you (you’re welcome to accuse me of subjectivity here at the Always Fairly Unbalanced Herald, and write in your own correctives). More to the point, what do the Lindens want to get across to these Captains of Industry?
While styled as a kind of very feted focus group, the Octocracy is actually as powerless as the Russian second secretary of the Grozny municipal administration. They have a power of sorts — to try to shape opinion, uphold the Tao of Linden and get their networks “on board” with various “projects”. But of course, server-side, they are referred to merely as “customers” if not “the load test”.
I heard some indication of the agenda — but of course none dare leak any documents out of the Lab. In fact, these people might be made to sign NDAs. However, one topic apparently of Linden interest is trying to get the “community” to be more “receptive” to corporations coming into Second Life.
Rather than file the usual b/tarded Griefer U rant, sycophantish fanboyz diatribe, or cynical blast about people who take games too seriously on teh Internets, why don’t readers, in a Terra Nova Terrabyte of 400 words or less, tell these good citizens on their way to CA what message they should deliver to the Lindens?
And let’s call on the Lucky 8 (or even 9?) to step up and tell the rest of the citizenry just what you’re talking to the Lindens about — how about an after-action report?
urizenus
Jun 28th, 2007
I like the idea of a cyberlebrity death match. A match between csven and prok to raise money for charity? We should arrange it before they get themselves banned from every blog in cyberspace. All we need is to decide on the charity. Yesterday I would have said raise the money for PETA, but what with their anti-furry policy, well we can’t have that!
Prokofy Neva
Jun 28th, 2007
My, the lady doth protest too much. Read my Ravenglass police blotter *shrugs*.
Shame on you, Uri, for promoting moral equivalency you know is not the case. Go and see what your Moet drinking buddies are doing at TN, it's atrocious. If you were part of that rogue's gallery hijacking the Metaverse and starting the Provisional Revolutionary Junta of Virtual Worlds this past week, for shame. You will be fought.
I loved how they first made a policy of 400 words or less and no personal attacks, looked the other way as it was violated by their own people, had Dan "Zhelezyakov" Hunter ("I'm tired) ban me in a fit of pique and Csven only as a forced and false moral equivalance, and then have GregL come along and remove the policy. I guess history does repeat as farce.
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
“and it creates fodder for a potential lawsuit”
hahahaha
Fodder like this: “the creepy stalker”, “who is completely unhinged”, “justify his curious indulgence of simulated child molestation”, plus *lots* of legally DEFINITIVE comments across multiple sites where there wasn’t the clearly ridiculous “Belief=Fact” qualification (other than in her own mind)?
hahahaha
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Looks to me like Catherine doesn’t like to play by her own Belief=Fact rules when they’re applied to *her*. Maybe the Russian translation works better dishing it out than when receiving.
But hey, maybe during the trial she’s threatening to initiate she can explain why she failed to contact the authorities after witnessing Real Life child pornography inside Second Life. I’d very much like to hear her explain that to a judge. I’d also like to hear how she knows details of my personal life which she’s inserted into her comments here and there.
Please, Catherine, file your “potential lawsuit”. Let’s drag you and all your alts and all your activity into the light of day.
shockwave yareach
Jun 28th, 2007
*sits in his seat and munches on popcorn*
Hey, this is getting good. Better than anything in the movies today, that’s for sure. Anyone else want some popcorn? No butter I’m afraid – gotta watch out for those Peta Stormtroopers in their pleather BDUs.
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
@Uri – for a good charity, I’d gladly tolerate the possibility of beating beaten by a virtual version of the real thing.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 28th, 2007
>Please, Catherine, file your “potential lawsuit”. Let’s drag you and all your alts and all your activity into the light of day.
My alts *are* in the light of day, and were long before Csven crawled out from a rock.
He is a creepy stalker, a menace, an unhinged. I think the People of the State of New York will agree.
I’ll see if I have time to get involved in launching a lawsuit, it’s expensive and time-consuming and only leads to the perception that you’re trying to suppress free speech, whereas in fact, what it’s about is trying to enlarge protections of free speech against insane assholes like Csven who try to intimidate you from commentary.
I’m happy to explain to any police, judge, or prosecutor the events of August 2006 regarding this “ageplayers’” house I saw in SL. There is no grounds for action against me there, only grounds for C. Sven being revealed as an obsessive and malicious crank.
I’m definitely not going to take part in any virtual wrestling match, I loathe wrestling and boxing as a spectator sport, real or virtual. I believe the virtual has influence on the real, and I don’t care to engage in virtual violence.
Cristiano Midnight
Jun 28th, 2007
I declined the SL Views invitation because of the ridiculously short notice and the fact that my mother was hospitalized for complications from knee surgery. Also, based upon what I have heard from past experience, the entire process is futile anyway.
urizenus
Jun 28th, 2007
Prok, I’m not asserting moral equivalency. I’m saying you and csven should settle this in the ring like real virtual men.
And for charity!
Kryss Wanweird
Jun 28th, 2007
“I have absolutely no interest in getting involved in any “RP wrestling” with the creepy stalker C. Sven, who is completely unhinged. And to do so would only fuel the false notion of moral equivalency.”
I disagree, Prokofy. The match would be an opportunity for a fist competition between you and Csven. After all, they (the fists) should be very powerful by now, with all the typing they have been exposed to. It has nothing to do with morality.
Plus, the event would be for a noble cause like, just suggesting, **Anti-Child-Porn in RL**. The money raised would go to charity specialized in sexually abused children.
Csven already considered the possibility (“@Uri – for a good charity, I’d gladly tolerate the possibility of beating beaten by a virtual version of the real thing.”).
So, what do you say?
Think of the innocent ones!
Joshua Nightshade
Jun 28th, 2007
Team of investigators?
All of the people you listed posted on SC that they were going. Wow, your crack team can use Google.
Artemis: I <3 you so much.
And for anyone watching at home I want to point out that I’ve had absolutely nothing to do with Prokofy at all for about a month and a half now, have barely even discussed her Bag-of-Vitriolness, yet I’m constantly getting my own hotline of anonymous tips that she’s lying, harassing and badmouthing me at every turn, even on places that have nothing to do with me or SL. Most recently being her bullshit at her faux-community meeting in Sutherland.
Just wanted to mention this since there’s that whole adage of “if you don’t talk to her, she’ll leave you alone.” Except she won’t, because she’s a gassy stalker.
Cristiano Midnight
Jun 28th, 2007
It’s hard to settle anything as man while conveniently wrapping one’s self in the cloak of persecuted female blogger who is fighting back against the evil males and claiming solidarity with Kathy Sierra.
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
And I think the People of the State of New York will find your behavior much, much more interesting.
So find that time, Catherine.
Until then, I’ll continue to reply in kind to every baseless, libelous comment you initiate.
(Except this one, I got a laugh out of you – of all people – calling me “insane”)
shockwave yareach
Jun 28th, 2007
Christiano:
My best hopes and prayers for your mother.
Joshua Nightshade
Jun 28th, 2007
Csven, don’t worry about Prok beating you; it’s not just vitriol she’s engorged on, if you get my drift. If it comes down to it just go for the knees. The effort required for her to bend over will be so intense she’s liable to blow an aneurysm on the spot. I don’t think she’s touched her toes since the Nixon administration.
Sooner or later Prok’s going to insinuate that we’re the same person, if she hasn’t already. Can we donate your deathmatch winnings to “Pathetically Impotent Male Forum Terrorists Against Child-Pornography in RL for Jesus?”
Anonymous
Jun 28th, 2007
There IS no settling something with Cven.
He’s all over the place, dragging these idiot things into any conversation – such as that incident with the people in the age-play place, which if anyone knows the details of, you know it is ABSURD to hang that on Prok, or in any way criticize Prok’s reaction to it.
Prok happened on it as they were dragging the photos DOWN, and saw only that there were some photos that blinked away before you could look closely, and he reported it to a Linden, who came there.
Cven is using this MOMENT – of glimpsing photos – to somehow come up with some sort of deal that Prok is promoting sexual age play and all this other nonsense, and that is just only one thing Cven is on about.
And he’s on about that and similar ridiculous stuff everywhere, constantly, including here, where I’m trying to discuss something else, and it’s tiresome and distracting.
There IS a topic to be discussed here that is important, and I did have another post to make, but bleh.
coco
Anonymous
Jun 28th, 2007
P.S. NOT to mention it is a long-lived standard that we don’t refer to people by their real-life first names, unless they insist on it, and he does that constantly, which is HUGELY distracting and irritating in a discussion, and even makes it seem like being female is something to be ashamed of, and THAT makes me mad.
Cven, is that your real name? If not, give me your real name so I can always say IT with disgust like you say “Catherine,” as if it is some kind of swear word, you chauvinist you.
Joshua Nightshade
Jun 28th, 2007
“There IS no settling something with Cven.
He’s all over the place, dragging these idiot things into any conversation – such as that incident with the people in the age-play place, which if anyone knows the details of, you know it is ABSURD to hang that on Prok, or in any way criticize Prok’s reaction to it.”
Pot, meet kettle.
For example, I’ve never, ever posted on Terra Nova and barely even read it. You’ll be surprised, then, that Prokofy brought me up several times in attack despite the fact that the discussion wasn’t about me, the people there didn’t know me, and the entry had nothing to do with me.
In fact, Prok’s very MO is to bring up irrelevant details and arguments in EVERY DISCUSSION on EVERY MEDIUM as an effort to dismiss someone’s argument when she dislikes them.
Joshua Nightshade
Jun 28th, 2007
For what it’s worth I think Csven is wrong and his argument is a little juvenile; however given whom the recipient of it is, I think it should be considered that Prokofy’s never shied away from repeating over and over and over and over information she knew was false and/or a lie herself, even when she’d been corrected publicly by others and shown proof that she was wrong.
urizenus
Jun 28th, 2007
Josh and Coco, you guys can be in the boxing match too. It can be a tag team event.
If it comes off, I’ll match all donations up to 50K L, provided the charity is somewhat worthy.
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
@Coco
“He’s all over the place, dragging these idiot things into any conversation”
Please relay for us how many places I’ve *initiated* this issue after our run-in on Clickable Culture. As you’re making a claim, support it.
I can point to four blogs and even more threads where Prok has dragged my name initiating further confrontation.
Other than documenting *some* of this stuff on my brand new Second Perspective blog, I’ve not written anything else about her or the real life child pornography she decided to ignore. I’ve not initiated any posts or comments anywhere; including this thread.
So do us all a favor and provide us some *real* facts. Do you think you can do that? Is that something little Coco can do?
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“that incident with the people in the age-play place, which if anyone knows the details of, you know it is ABSURD to hang that on Prok, or in any way criticize Prok’s reaction to it.”
All I’ve done is use Prokofy’s own words describing what she witnessed. Was she lying when she posted those details?
More importantly, do *you* know the details? If so, it sounds as if you were *there* too. Were you? Were you the one who IM’d Prokofy?
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“NOT to mention it is a long-lived standard that we don’t refer to people by their real-life first names, unless they insist on it, and he does that constantly, which is HUGELY distracting and irritating in a discussion, and even makes it seem like being female is something to be ashamed of, and THAT makes me mad.”
Apparently you missed my earlier comment. Care to explain why Prokofy is using my “real-life” name? repeatedly? When *this* thread is the first time I’ve used it on the Herald after she’s been using mine repeatedly?
And exactly where do I “insist” on using my “real-life first name”? Neither CVEN nor CSVEN are my real-life first names.
So if you’re getting mad, might I suggest calling Denny Crane. He thinks he’s going mad too.
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“you chauvinist you”
Oww. Now that stings.
Oh, and btw, are you *ever* going to answer my previous questions, or do you ignore what you can’t explain? or what you’re afraid giving an honest answer to will displease Mama Prok.
Joshua Nightshade
Jun 28th, 2007
Sure, I’ll tag team Coco.
Wait….
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
@Uri
Josh and I get to have Putin and Yeltsin avies, okay? And maybe wear those cool Soviet-era red spandex wrestling uniforms!
urizenus
Jun 28th, 2007
I like the idea of Yeltsin and Putin avies, but it would be so much more visceral if people used their quotidian avies.
I was thinking we could get Dan Hunter and Tony Walsh as celebrity referees, but um, I don’t think Prok will go for that.
We can get Marilyn Murphy to come up with some ring girls.
What am I forgetting?
Yo Brewster
Jun 28th, 2007
>It’s an evil system of corporativist favouritism and should be discontinued. If the Lindens cannot be transparent about the criteria for selection and offer a hell of a lot more rotation and variety — at the very least — they should discontinue it.
I doubt many will agree with you that’s it’s an evil system. I mean, you might not like it but evil? What’s so evil about inviting members over to visit Linden Lab? Also, it’s kinda obvious what Linden Lab’s selection criteria is – they’re simply selecting people that in one form or another are helping Second Life grow.
>They invite people not to hear what they think, but to evangelize to them as developers to get them imbued with the party line to go out and preach some more and gain whatever handfalls or windfalls are to be gained. Lindens, with this system, don’t seem to want to hear about the failures; they want to consolidate their few successes with fervent loyalists. It’s not how you grow a country, let alone a company.
You’ve clearly never been there so I’m not sure where you’re getting your information. Do you really think that everybody that goes there suddenly agrees with what Linden Lab is saying or doing? Wrong – you can take my word for it. And no, you do talk about their failures. That’s part of why you’re there – to tell them what you feel is broken and to help them guide in the right direction.
Kryss Wanweird
Jun 28th, 2007
“What am I forgetting?”
The food!
Scripted bananas would be dropped to the audience, as thank you gift, for coming.
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
Fair enough. We can have Boris Yeltsin and Vladimir Putin ringside assistants instead. But we’re *not* caving on the Soviet spandex.
And do we really need referees? I intend to claim victory if I escape being skewered with a strap-on and hearing a husky voice scream “squeal like a pig”.
hmmmm. Maybe we need a Burt Reynolds avie too?
Joshua Nightshade
Jun 28th, 2007
My avatar is a tiny robot, I don’t know how you’re going to emulate that outside of SL.
Wrestling outfits though, hm… kinky.
urizenus
Jun 28th, 2007
Joshua, you do understand that this is going to be at SL Boxing?
Anonymous
Jun 28th, 2007
Prok didn’t “decide to ignore” any real-life child pornography!
That’s the point! It’s hard to discuss the topic at hand here when you keep throwing up these red herrings that have nothing to do with the topic and aren’t defensible anyway!
Then people have to stop and go back to that situation, which you keep insisting on describing inaccurately, and anyone with half a brain KNOWS it is ridiculous to accuse people of these things, just because they called a Linden instead of getting on the phone on the spot and calling the police about NON-EXISTANT PORN.
But we just HAVE to keep on discussing that ad infinitum anyhow, don’t we. That’s why I say there is no winning with you.
I’ve seen you on about it before Csven, and I don’t have to document it for you; you know you’ve been on about it for what, a month now? Enough for me to be sick of it, and it has nothing to do with this topic!
And don’t call me “little coco,” you self-important chauvinist piglet, you.
I think I have your number now; I think you are about twelve years old, and full of yourself. Full of hot air and condescension, along with a complete inability to discuss a topic at hand.
coco
Nacon
Jun 28th, 2007
“Um, dragging an SL name into a discussion isn’t at all like dragging a RL name, Nacon”
Yeah, I know it’s not…. but why are you calling me Nacon now? Again… I know it’s not like dragging out the RL names but… you are the only one that does it.
So what happened? You’re attracted to Nacon instead of Vincent that you once were screaming about? So what’s the hold up?
Maybe you do admit you were an idiot?
Sure, all these times you believes I might be trolling but never thought you might be? Well sorry Prok, I’m not the one who got banned from LL’s blog and many other blogs that I may never know. Hell… You outnumbered me in banned count from most of the places and that make you a bigger troll than I am, but makes you right to call me a troll? Interesting.
Now if you will excuse me, I’m gonna not watch your stupid fight with Csven, but surely will place my bet against you.
“based upon what I have heard from past experience, the entire process is futile anyway.”
Cause there’s no one willing to step up the pressing matters. Which they have been expecting you to.
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
@Coco
“Then people have to stop and go back to that situation, which you keep insisting on describing inaccurately, and anyone with half a brain KNOWS it is ridiculous to accuse people of these things, just because they called a Linden instead of getting on the phone on the spot and calling the police about NON-EXISTANT PORN”
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From Prokofy Neva’s blog: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/05/the_pedophiles_.html
Exhibit 1
“I got there and found a house full of pedophiles hastily clearing out the *real-life very graphic child pornography” off their walls — they were photographs imported from real life porn”
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Conclusion:
a) Prokofy witnessed real child pornography
b) The real child pornography was removed from view, but whether it was deleted from inventory remained unknown and was unknowable.
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What did Prokofy do?
“Nobody followed up — nobody felt like following up, the people sold their land and disappeared and the story was over.
I forgot about the subject then with the crush of other stories,…”
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What does Prokofy give as an excuse?
“Possibly if the Lindens had decided to change their policy, and Lindens like Guy were empowered to act, the outcome might have been different. But they weren’t, and here we all are.”
I’m sorry, does Linden Lab have a policy on Real Child Pornography? Do they NEED one???
No.
It’s illegal. Period.
That Prokofy uses Linden Lab’s lack of a policy for VIRTUAL child pornography as an excuse for inaction, or that the images were “deleted” from view when she full well knows neither “Take” nor delete from the parcel necessarily removes something from inventory, is inconceivable to me. I can only imagine she was more upset about adults *pretending* to be children than the plight of *real* children. From the things she’s written, that wouldn’t surprise me at all.
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Now, you claim I bring this topic up. Did I?
Who brought up child pornography in this thread???
Prokofy Neva: “Indeed, fitting for someone who can promote virtual child molestation, and then falsely accuse a neighbour of having a “kiddiepark” on Flickr.”
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Now that we’ve established you’re an imbecile, forgive me if I simply ignore you from here on out (unless you care to answer whether or not you were actually in Yongchon and were the person who contacted Prokofy about the protest; a question you refuse to answer).
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Are we now done talking about child pornography which Prokofy dragged into this thread?
Csven Concord
Jun 28th, 2007
Oh, and btw, by “little Coco”, I was referring to mental capacity. Didn’t realize I’d written that; it’s just how I think of you.
Jessica Holyoke
Jun 28th, 2007
Hey everyone,
I noticed that no one commented on Angel Fluffy’s role in the “Octocracy.” I remember being at an office meeting where “forced sex slavery” is not viewed as utopian, but one of the main proponents of such consentual playtime actions, Angel Fluffy of CARP, is included in future utopian talk.
Prokofy laid out a case that Angel may be in a different class because he has extensive Linden connections, but that makes the response to the blogpost puzzling. If Angel was a “Chosen One”, why didn’t any Linden stick up for his main contribution to SL? The Lindens could have quelled a fair amount of the uproar by saying that they don’t mind Angel’s role in SL. It is also difficult to say that BDSM activity is never allowed in SL if a primary proponent is getting airfare to San Francisco.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 28th, 2007
Just to reply again to C. Sven Johnson’s tendentious and hysterical misportral of my recount of this incident last summer:
1. I was summoned to this sim by people not known to me, who were on the parcel next door demonstrating — I don’t recall their names. They were crusaders on this issue. The scene was chaotic, and the sim was laggy and crashed a few times. I saw pictures that looked like RL porn to me, and graphic, but they were being deleted even as I arrived and as I tried to rez in the scene. I can’t report something that is deleted; there’s nothing to report. Again, C. Sven wishes to either a) claim I am lying about this sighting or b) ascribe to me some perceived “responsibility to report” but both are wrongheaded, malicious, and vindictive. I can only recount what I saw in good faith; I can’t explain anything more than what I saw. And I am not obliged to make any report anywhere, whether to the media or to RL authorities, especially when I see that the Lindens have arrived and are handling it, and the material is being deleted.
2. I’m not a crusader against child pornography. It’s simply not a cause I wish to take up. There are many who do a good job of this — it’s a difficult issue that earns you enormous spite and hatred and it’s simply not an issue I’m willing to take on. I’m also not a crusader *for* avatar child pornography, either, as I believe it morally wrong, and it’s legal prohibition in some countries is enough to persuade me that it’s a seriously criminal matter.
Others can get involved in parsing the meanings of this area; I’m not interested. If I forgot about a topic that is unpleasant, about which I personally cannot do anything or wish to do anything about, that’s not lack of care, or lack of consideration about the seriousness of the issue, but it’s a declaration that I personally am not taking it on as a crusade. It’s an ugly, hateful, criminal topic, with many ugly passions on both sides of the issue, as we can see from C. Sven’s repeated astoundingly nasty and vicious postings on the subject. If he would like to be a) a crusader against RL child pornography and b) a crusader for the right to make child avatar pornography, hey, the field is clear, it’s wide open for him to occupy, I’m not interested.
If C. Sven believes a serious crime took place a year ago, and anybody is negligent in reporting it, he needs to call the proper authorities, and start with Linden Lab, which owns the servers. If he feels they are indifferent or uninterested, and he believes it’s a matter of actual negligence and criminality not to report it somewhere, by God, he has to take it to any RL authority he feels will take on the case.
3. The Lindens own the servers, have the RL credit card information of the people who own land, and are in a position to check for trashed material that may still be on servers. I am not. I’ve received a clear-cut answer from Linden Lab on this matter recently. If any resident sees child pornography in SL, they need to contact LL immediately and report it, and LL cooperates with RL authorities to address any allegation of this criminal act. So that’s what C. Sven needs to do about this matter or anthing similar that recurs.
4. Had the Lindens had a policy against sexualized ageplay with avatars last year, and declared it as obscene and broadly offensive the way they declare swastikas to be broadly offensive, those protesting this matter would have had more response from LL. Those who use RL child pornography would not have found any enabling environment in SL — which indeed they *did* find by the despicable tolerance for avatar porn. But they didn’t have such a policy, and only developed it now.
LL definitely does need such a policy on RL child porn — and they have one. That’s why they need to be contacted. The idea that they are irrelevant, when only they have the facts server-side, and the credit cards or at least some kind of sign-up information of the possible offenders, means they are the ones who must take action, and residents need to abuse- report these allegations to LL.
5. Since sexualized ageplay in SL is identified as illegal both directly by RL media and authorities in Europe, and by LL as an area where RL authorities might act, I think we all have very clearcut instructions here. That’s why I don’t permit any representation of sexualized ageplay on my properites. A swingset, or a person in a child avatar, is not sexualized ageplay. If someone has concerns that they might be, they should report it to LL.
6. C. Sven is dredging up these tendentious claims again and again because he feels he has some sort of provocative topic he can “stick me with” or something, and he imagines it has endless value as a nuisance factor. He’s used it to make false claims about me over and over again, and even used the outrageously indefensible tactic of claiming my tenants are engaged in unlawful activity and even violating their privacy — and making false claims about me — by putting a picture called “Prok’s Kiddieland” on Flickr — then later word-salading his way around this heinous act with a dozen dodges and feints that are utterly ridiculous.
In short, C. Sven, who ostensibly began his crusade out of the motivation of securing the Linden Lab resident-rented servers for freedom of creativity and freedom from overbroad and overreaching restrictions on creativity, such as might occur by people falsely reporting a swingset as “ageplay,” has in fact ended by being guilty of the very offense he supposedly sought to avoid.
Therefore we can see the truly reprehensible bad faith in which C. Sven Johnson is operating, and understand what’s at stake here: he refuses to admit the capacity of virtuality for criminality, and wishes to hold it in reserve as some imaginary, totally “free” zone of absolutely uninhibited activity, never to be regulated as it is all “fictional”. I disagree. And for that disagreement, C. Sven is prepared to use the deadly methods of stalking, harassing, libeling, falsely accusing, and even dragging into bans from other blogs. That’s what giving the criminality of virtuality a pass does to you.
I think readers can make their own judgements about this kind of behaviour, and the totally unhinged mentality that accompanies it. And not find moral equivalency between me, a person prepared to keep pointing out the potential for criminality in virtuality, and him, a person prepared to use criminal means to achieve the ends of proving that supposedly virtuality can never be criminal.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 28th, 2007
>For what it’s worth I think Csven is wrong and his argument is a little juvenile; however given whom the recipient of it is, I think it should be considered that Prokofy’s never shied away from repeating over and over and over and over information she knew was false and/or a lie herself, even when she’d been corrected publicly by others and shown proof that she was wrong.
Perhaps Nightshade is referring to his false claims that he didn’t stalk me, and wasn’t involved in distributing a picture of my RL doorway. I stand by my characterization of those incidents; his claim they are false has suffered less and less “credibility” the more he is shown to be a stalker of others on SC.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 28th, 2007
>I declined the SL Views invitation because of the ridiculously short notice and the fact that my mother was hospitalized for complications from knee surgery. Also, based upon what I have heard from past experience, the entire process is futile anyway.
That’s not what you said originally on SC. You said you might have trouble getting off from work. I’m sorry to hear about your mother. Many people have difficulties in their lives. Your failure to appear in public at any event, while your sacred right in SL, does begin to raise the question of what you are afraid of, especially when you are keen to force disclosure on others or do nothing when they suffer disclosure.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 28th, 2007
>Prok, I’m not asserting moral equivalency. I’m saying you and csven should settle this in the ring like real virtual men.
>And for charity!
No, I don’t engage in fictionalized violence “for charity”. It’s just not what I do. And to claim that engaging with C. Sven on any sort of activity isn’t to affirm false moral equivalency is irresponsible, Uri. C. Sven needs a lawsuit, not indulgence with roleplay in a game.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
I noticed that no one commented on Angel Fluffy’s role in the “Octocracy.” I remember being at an office meeting where “forced sex slavery” is not viewed as utopian, but one of the main proponents of such consentual playtime actions, Angel Fluffy of CARP, is included in future utopian talk.
But I did comment on all these issues. It’s just I’ve commented exhaustively on my blog already, and it seemed relevant only to indicate the broad outlines of the problem here. I just didn’t have time to put in all the links.
The problem with Angel Fluffy is that he takes the mores and ethos of capture roleplay and brings it into the civic arena, into things like the voter tools and groups. His fiercely oppressive BDSM control techniques are used on other people in groups — he gives elaborate instructions for how people are supposed to talk to him; he ruthlessly suppresses any free speech and chat within groups; he puts only himself as officer, etc. That’s why BDSM is such an alarming cultural phenomenon — its methods, supposedly merely donned for private roleplay, bleed and seep into the civic space and become the mode by which people behave with others who do not share their views, do not consent to their roleplay, and find it absolutely reprehensible to use controlling and coercive methods on other people.
The Lindens, for all kinds of reasons, including the fact that some of them are likely into BDSM on their alts, and including the fact that they have a good chunk of customers and sex businesses favouring BDSM, wish to write it as big a pass as they can get.
You would think that Broadly Offensive — if it includes sexual violence — might include predatory capture roleplay. Evidently it doesn’t, or they think their absence of abuse reports “from the community” means everyone gives it a pass, when it fact many are made uncomfortable by it and even feel it is wrong. They’re willing to concede that it is people’s private business, but they don’t favor it, and worry about what it means for the image of Second Life.
See, this is why having a non-transparent system where the abuse reporters are never named is so bad.
The Lindens’ blessing of Angel Fluffy with this NDA-signing affair is really awful stuff, I agree. It means a blessing for capture roleplay; it means a blessing for hijacking of the voter tools. It means they approve of those methods. I find this terribly distressing for its implications.
urizenus
Jun 29th, 2007
Here’s an idea. You guys can all box in SL *and* sue each other! They are not mutually exclusive. But let me say this: box each other or sue each other, but please will all of you just shut the fuck up about your stupid stalking/kiddie-porn-non-reporting/libelous/whatever. No one wants to hear about it and no one cares about it. Go to fucking court but please do everyone in the blogosphere a big favor and STFU with this nonsense.
We.
Don’t.
Care.
And no one is giving a prize for the last post either. You are all just making yourselves look like total ass clowns.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
Uri, you may decide to duck the moral challenge here — I’m not surprised you’re doing that. You’re cynical about it; and you don’t care. You simply are tone deaf to the issues at stake here — and that’s your right, but it’s also my right to call you on it.
I have no desire whatsoever to trivialize these issues by being in some lame-ass “boxing match” in a game-like atmosphere. Hell no.
So look, Uri, YOU have a choice. If you don’t want to see me answer line by line every time C. Sven Johnson falsely portrays me in SL, libels me AND drags in my RL name viciously to try to silence my critique of his views, then you need to delete his posts or stand up to him. Perhaps a policy on RL disclosure is needed at the Herald?
You could declare that a) constant tendentious portrayal of my actions in SL — which you KNOW are tendentious and wrong and b) dragging in my RL name are wrong. Or even just b) and not a). You know they are wrong. You don’t do things like this yourself, do you? You don’t *encourage* people on the Herald to lie about other people AND dig up their RL name and speciously insert it, do you? So why give it a pass?
There is something that can be done in these situations, something that you’re often very good at doing, and that’s posting a simple comment like, “Posting Prok’s RL name here is abusive and cowardly, take it to your own blog.” That’s it!
So if you give it a pass here at the Herald, in the interests of free speech, then you’ll just have to look the other way while people like me fight it line by line, and inch by inch. Because it’s wrong. And you know it’s wrong.
The failure of Tony Walsh to stand up to this wrongfulness; the failure of the Terra Nova professors to stand up this wrongfulness — that led them to the cowardly, despicable actions of banning me and morally equating me falsely with C. Sven by banning him.
If you don’t wish to do that same thing, then STFU yourself, big guy. Seriously. I don’t need to be told to STFU when I am defending my good name here — since you are ducking the moral task of defending it, as are most people, except Cocoanut.
Believe me, if it were happening to you, and you were being harassed by a stalker who thought you should have “reported kiddie porn” that was deleted, or if you were having a picture of your yard put on Flickr and called “Kiddieland” or if you were facing some idiot obsessive fucktard chasing you from blog to blog claiming you were guilty of a serious offense of not reporting a crime, trust me, I’d defend you.
I know I’m *not* looking like an ass clown; I’m providing thoughtful, methodical replies to the very serious problem of people trivializing criminality in virtuality. These issues are real, and not trivial.
It’s as if you’ve forgotten Evangeline. That’s really sad.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
Prokofy, grow up, M’kay?
The administrator of this site has made it clear he does not want any more of this bullshit here – That does not open up a debate. You, CS, Josh and others have just been told to knock it off by the one holding post access controls.
Be the adult in the situation and know when it is time to walk away: There is nothing here for you to defend. There never was.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
Oh and dearie?
“I know I’m *not* looking like an ass clown; I’m providing thoughtful, methodical replies to the very serious problem of people trivializing criminality in virtuality.”
I hate to break it to you but real crimes involve real people – not Avatars. If you have concrete proof to the contrary (not a study, the results of those change constantly, nor any examples of people being shaken enough by some online action to commit suicide … Those individuals had problems to begin with and could not separate real from fantasy) then provide it.
mootykips
Jun 29th, 2007
hay doesn’t anyone want to e-box me?
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
Uri, you’re encouraging the barbarians, when you need to stand up to them, that’s what’s at stake here.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
“Uri, you’re encouraging the barbarians, when you need to stand up to them, that’s what’s at stake here.”
You know dearie, there is only so much anyone can take before they decide keeping certain elements around is no longer worth it.
From what I can see – you’re pushing the administrator, not wise.
Kryss Wanweird
Jun 29th, 2007
Hey, if sl boxing is too violent, how about sl soccer or even sl chess?
Cocoanut Koala
Jun 29th, 2007
Well, then, Csven, if you think my mental capacity is “little,” that just shows what a poor judge you are of others’ intellect.
In addition to having a grossly inflated (and skewed) idea of your own.
coco
Csven Concord
Jun 29th, 2007
“endless value as a nuisance factor”
I guess this explains why Catherine keeps dragging this topic all over the internet, just as she did in this thread and in others.
One example: http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/05/unconscionable_.html#comment-71290292
(that one’s like watching the movie “Scanners”… with Prok’s head exploding)
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“he needs to call the proper authorities”
Again?
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Uri, you mean there *isn’t* a policy against using RL names? Damn. That’s why – until *this* thread and in response to Prokofy’s continually using my RL name every chance she gets – I refrained.
Well now I know.
urizenus
Jun 29th, 2007
@reality
Prok and Sven and Joshua can carry on with this all they want. I could care less. The problem is that all three are intelligent and can make outstanding contributions here when they aren’t standing around taking turns shooting themselves in the feet in a circle jerk orgy of idiocy.
And Prok, this isn’t about who’s right or wrong. Trying to redress grievances here is like John Stewart trying to use the Daily Show as a platform to redress hi personal grievances. It’s just not an effective place to do it. If you’ve been wronged go to court, or find an online dispute resolution court.
@ all: I understand the idea that “he charged me and must therefore be answered”, but it doesn’t work like that. Every time you answer a stupid idiotic charge here you just bring it to the attention of a bigger audience. My advice: stfu.
Like I said, there is no prize for the last post.
Csven Concord
Jun 29th, 2007
@Joshua
Robot avatar, huh? How about we go back-to-back to protect our… *ahem*… asses? You can face micro-brain* and I’ll deal with exploding-head lady (putrid liquids being bad for gears and whatnot).
And maybe mootykips can help train us and stand in as either Putin or Yeltsin.
(* Note effort to improve judging intellect)
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@Uri – Another revelation. I thought the Herald was all about “a circle jerk orgy of idiocy”. If it’s not about that, then… what???