Interview With Woodbury University’s Edward Clift
by Pixeleen Mistral on 03/07/07 at 8:39 am
“Universities should be made aware that Linden Labs maintains global surveillance on all the activities of their student members and monitors them both on campus and off-site” – Edward Clift
by Pixeleen Mistral, National Affairs desk
Over the last two days, I conducted an interview with Dr. Edward Clift via e-mail, seeking his opinion on the Linden Lab deletion of Woodbury University island from the Second Life metaverse.
I will give Dr. Clift points for affecting a certain style – his Second Life avatar goes by the name MC Fizgig. In real life he is the Deputy Director, School of Media, Culture, & Design and Chair & Associate Professor, Dept. of Communication at Woodbury University, so we can assume a certain level of media-savvy, and perhaps an interest in those that hack the media to advance their own meta-messages – such as the goons and griefers. Here is a transcript of our conversation
pixeleen mistral: Did you pre-pay for the use of the Second Life island? Has Linden Lab refunded the money?
Edward Clift:We did pre-pay for the first six months of the island and have not received a refund.
pixeleen mistral: Do you plan to fight the Woodbury University sim closure?
Edward Clift: Our plan is to fight the Woodbury University closure by a) appealing to Linden Labs and b) speaking out on behalf of academic freedom.
pixeleen mistral: Apparently, Linden Lab felt that there were problems with the activities taking place in the region and with Terms Of Service violations by troublemakers. Were you aware of any of these sorts of problems?
Edward Clift: Woodbury University is a minority-serving institution whose students are often relegated to the margins or unjustly castigated as troublemakers. The fact that Linden Labs waves Terms of Service violations around with no details or supporting evidence reminds me of the Salem Witch Hunt Trials. If people come to an educational island, they seem to say, then we know you are guilty! Let’s burn you at the stake! Look, one of the 11,000 daily visitors wrote a nasty script… Let’s turn their island to grey goo! The truth is we worked diligently to institute a security force including members of the Justice League in an effort to keep problems in check. There was never any communication from Linden until the disconnection as to whether they thought we were doing a good job or not and certainly no chance to take corrective measures in any kind of cooperative fashion.
pixeleen mistral: any other comments?
Edward Clift: The faculty here believes in its students and the positive differences they can make in society. I’m not going to turn away students because they don’t meet Linden Lab’s dress code or because they speak with a Spanish rather than English accent. More importantly, I’m not going to let Linden Labs dictate how students should be educated or what they should be allowed to know. The destruction of the Woodbury 2.0 campus is, in my view, an egregious shot across the bow of academia. All institutions of higher education are now put on notice that they better not do anything too ambitious or “enlightening” unless they want to risk being shunned and eventually expelled from the Holy Grid.
Universities should be made aware that Linden Labs maintains global surveillance on all the activities of their student members and monitors them both on campus and off-site. You will never see this tracking data but you will be held accountable for everything they say or do. Monitors at Linden Labs, by the way, will draw their own conclusions as to the meaning of any speech artifacts, scripts, or student activities. Power over the grid and possession of the surveillance tapes automatically makes them right and it is nearly impossible to dispute incorrect or arbitrary determinations. Meanwhile, the venture capitalists behind SL sit on their yachts off the coast of Panama enjoying the spectacle of hapless academics begging not to be expelled (so much for tenure!).
I urged my student group to engage the primum materium of SL and not simply recreate the traditional ivy-covered buildings and chalkboard lecture hall classroom found elsewhere. The invisible “matter” of SL is the creation and interaction of alters and apparently we were the first to study and creatively experiment with these social relationships in an educational setting. Such an approach, as we have seen, can potentially antagonize the owners of a media channel seeking to naturalize its own operations. The Terms of Service agreement used to vaporize our campus is a distraction designed to hide the insufficiency of the technical architecture of Second Life itself. Isn’t it time to stop blaming the customer?
pixeleen mistral: Were you aware that other members of the “security force” are alleged members of some well known trouble-making groups in Second Life?
Edward Clift: There is no way to know whether someone is a member of one of these trouble-making groups until they demonstrate it in some way. The “security force” actually became our “road crew” and was responsible for building features of the campus. They built a stunning campus in a matter of weeks. About 10% of our “road crew” was banned when it was discovered they were members of a trouble-making organization known as p/n. We did not tolerate, support, or condone p/n on our campus and were, in fact, attacked at one point by this group for our “zero-tolerance” policy. A second “secret service” team was constructed to monitor SIM use and maintain order on a nearly 24/7 basis. The members of this team were drawn from recognized security personnel in the world including the JLU and a variety of private islands.
pixeleen mistral: So you were not contacted at all after the initial warnings in mid-april?
Edward Clift: That is correct. The only other contact was a telephone message I received in late April from Robin or Nicole Linden reiterating their threat to discontinue the island. No action was taken, however, and a bill was sent to us shortly thereafter so I assumed everything was running smoothly again.
pixeleen mistral: How would you respond to the second life residents that say Woodbury acted as a rallying point for gangs of troublemakers? Do you feel you have a
responsibility to the SL society as a whole to police your sim?
Edward Clift: I think people may be misinterpreting the events based on the hyperactive spin machine created by certain reporters and residents with vested interests or connections to the Lindens. We take very seriously our responsibility to police the SIM and instituted every reasonable security measure we could without taking the island completely private.
it is unreasonable to invite universities into the world and then ask them to stop acting like a university
pixeleen mistral: So your concern here is the lack of due process and a clear appeals process?
Edward Clift: To say the least!
pixeleen mistral: Assuming that immersive social spaces are a new media and a place where many people will spend significant time and energy, do you see any alternatives to Second Life? What would you hope for from a metaverse service provider?
Edward Clift: I think it is unreasonable to invite universities into the world and then ask them to stop acting like a university. I am deeply repulsed by the eagerness of otherwise smart, well-intentioned people to try to solve all the underlying tensions of SL by banning residents or entire islands at the drop of the dime. This strategy needs to stop at the doors of academe whose whole existence is founded on the idea of educating others (presumed a priori to be lacking in the knowledge they seek) and exploring new ideas together in the open communication forum known as the classroom.
We created a living campus in Second Life where people of all stripes got together, shared ideas, and learned from each other. An art gallery had just been built that was going to house a student show on homelessness in LA and powerpoint lectures on Darfur were planned. Metaverses are a burgeoning phenomenon, and rightly so, but their controllers will need to assume a more relaxed stance before users give them full credibility. I see them in the future functioning much more like a utility or internet hosting company as more people become accustomed to living out their fantasies– and realities– in these worlds.
Reality
Jul 3rd, 2007
“Reality,
Do you even HAVE an account in Second Life?”
Yep – said account’s identity is information that is privy only to my closest friends from other services however. I’ve learned from experience that when you are going against even one individual there will always be people who will harass you in any way they can if they know who you are. Such is the way of the world.
All of that said though Pix? Frankly it really should not matter – this is a publicly read Blog.
Mark
Jul 3rd, 2007
Clift is an ass. An ass because like the griefers themselves, he thinks he’s so clever and so much smarter than the rest of us. It’s not very difficult to see through the smokescreen, Mr. Clift.
Nothing but red herrings and word salad. And Salem? Uh, real people died their. They were murdered jackass. Comparing LL taking action FINALLY against these ass clowns to having your neighbors KILL you for something you didn’t do is the most irresponsible thing I have heard come out of a “University” faculty member’s mouth in a long, long time.
It’s no small wonder these kids are such assholes, when they have assholes like Clift as mentors.
If anything, LL has been way too slow to move decisively against these punks.
Janelle Kyomoon
Jul 3rd, 2007
Hi, thanks for your comment! If you’d like a detailed response, you’ll need to provide a first and last SL name, and get two other SL residents with their names as well to second and third your request for a response to this accusation. See you in the ether
To satisfy dear Prokofy’s needs and demands… my SL name is Janelle Kyomoon, and those that back me are Nivek Hax and Lumiya Lane.
lol… this is just cracking me up that you have to repost your dear little imposed rule of people having an adult conversation with you
Home
Jul 3rd, 2007
Maybe Clift is a fake? I sent an email to info@woodbury.edu They said they had no clue what SL was and had no ties in it. So maybe this Clift is just stealing their name.
CheeseburgerX
Jul 3rd, 2007
Second Lulz Vigilante doesn’t sound old enough to be in SL, and never before has leet speek sound so forced and fake.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Jul 3rd, 2007
Secondlulz Vigilante:
Woodbury wasn’t a griefer base, and the only people permabanned after the sim’s removal were PN alts – which were replaced minutes later.
Conclusion? No greifers lost out atall, and you’re still gonna get crashed and caged and orbitted. Have fun.
Wingless Redgrave:
The race card was played AGAINST us long ago. Moreover, Clift’s comment was metaphorical.
Prokofy:
Sherpa sherpa narodna lenina bolshevik sherpa sherpa soyuz.
MeatloafX
Jul 3rd, 2007
@Second Lulz Vigilante
Sounds like you’re a butthurt greifer to me (aka you do things that are bannable), the kind that doesn’t have fun, just obsess over people that grief for fun.
BTW, Ive never heard of a vigilante or any non linden that actually was a threat, just whiny lolcows that threatened to report everyone, If I ever saw you ingame, I probably couldn’t tell the difference, an imaginary league of vigilantes with pushguns won’t stop people like PN or W-hat.
BTW, WU isn’t a griefer group, some griefers just like to visit there, if you want someone to cry to because a black man in a afro ruined your yiffing, you’re in the wrong place.
HamsandwichX
Jul 4th, 2007
Mark, you can tell yourself that WU is some kind of massive griefer headquarters, and that Edward Clift is some kind of secret griefer conspirator, but I doubt anyone’s going to believe you, with that kind of thinking you may as well accuse LL of creating the griefers.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 4th, 2007
>To satisfy dear Prokofy’s needs and demands… my SL name is Janelle Kyomoon, and those that back me are Nivek Hax and Lumiya Lane.
Hi! I’m not able to come to your personal attack right now, but please restate your question and/or denunciation coherently and I’ll be happy to give you a detailed response soon!
Anon
Jul 4th, 2007
Blacks and latinos are being thrown into the fray as either an excuse for Woodbury’s lax standards, or scapegoats for whatever is going on there. I can’t believe that a Woodbury University representative is using the racial composition of its student body to excuse disruptive and/or irresponsible behavior. The implication is really disturbing– that somehow Woodbury needs to allow this type of behavior to educate blacks and latinos. The hell? If this is part of what you do to serve the interests of your minority students, stop.
Also, Mexican Americans and Blacks are minorities in the United States based on the popular definition (based on percentage of the population), despite comments above re: how blacks and latinos can “outrun” “white people.” Not quite sure what that means…at worst, its a sucker punch, and at the very least an unfortunate choice of words with stereotypical overtones.
Sn4X15
Jul 4th, 2007
>To satisfy dear Prokofy’s needs and demands… my SL name is Janelle Kyomoon, and those that back me are Nivek Hax and Lumiya Lane.
in b4 prokofy griefs you and blames it on poor innocent afro-wearing black people, that’s the real conspiracy here
Mark
Jul 4th, 2007
“Mark, you can tell yourself that WU is some kind of massive griefer headquarters, and that Edward Clift is some kind of secret griefer conspirator, but I doubt anyone’s going to believe you, with that kind of thinking you may as well accuse LL of creating the griefers.”
I do tell myself that, and ah, more people than just myself believe that. Probably more than those who don’t. And a lot of those that “don’t” are merely being facetious Eddie Haskells or apologist enablers.
LL didn’t create them silly, but they do become impressed by them at times, and many times (and this is from direct involvement with the idiots and LL employees over racism issues) look the other way and provide loopholes for them. Hell, there are “reformed” griefers working at LL, and LL employees celebrating well known griefers by wearing their avatars. It’s no secret that they have a soft spot for the Little Dickenses.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 4th, 2007
I’m so glad people here are calling “Professor Clift” on his really atrocious playing of the race card here. You can’t see people’s races in SL, and his and others’ use of the black avatars and “Pool’s Out” icons is really dubious and racist itself at times.
His claim that the promotion of minorities through Woodbury’s programs can be invoked to silence criticism about his group’s bad behaviour is really political correctness of the absolute worse kind. I wish we could hear from others at Woodbury — really, this PC stuff has gone absolutely wild.
Janelle Kyomoon
Jul 4th, 2007
>>Hi! I’m not able to come to your personal attack right now, but please restate your question and/or denunciation coherently and I’ll be happy to give you a detailed response soon!
*claps hands together slowly*
Prokofy… have you learned that my statement is true???? That if you constantly push this guys they will constantly push back. My dear dear Prokofy. You are too amusing for words. You won’t answer me because you know my words are right and it stings you to the very core. You even lump me in with a greifer group the other day for the sheer fact that I am on Second Life and join a group that made a stab at you with its title. The only thing I do is walk around in Second Life and enjoy the fashions and try to make them myself.
Grow up dear Prokofy. You are over 50 years old. Its time to stop going out looking for people to blame.
Botticelli Velazquez the Horrible
Jul 4th, 2007
Cliffy said: “it is unreasonable to invite universities into the world and then ask them to stop acting like a university”
You guys blow – that’s not a university, it’s a school for miscreants no matter how you sugar coat it with Eddie Haskell-isms (as Prok would say). “Gosh, Ms. Cleaver, we weren’t doin’ nuthin’ but messin’ around.”
Maybe it should be asked of this bogus “university” to start acting like ADULTS before being granted the same treatment.
Cliffy said: “Woodbury University is a minority-serving institution whose students are often relegated to the margins or unjustly castigated as troublemakers.”
So, brainiac Cliffy here pulls the racist card before admitting that his woodburied group is a bunch of troublemakers – probably an alternative to jail or summer prison camp for teens. How many of them have a police record, Cliffy? What’s your criteria for enrollment? Felonies? or just general thuggery?
If I were LL, I’d call for a full investigation into this bogus school for criminals. I can name a few investigative institutions that would be *VERY* interested in this criminal organization posing as a “campus” on American soil.
If you guys are smart, you’ll shut your mouths, deny everything and hide your explosives in a deep bunker so it won’t burn down your compound when the ATF comes in with battering ram tanks, stun grenades, and armor piercing bullets.
SomebodyImportant
Jul 4th, 2007
Your little world has you delusional “NobodyImportant” – you said “There are /b/-tard managers at your fast food restaurants, your pizza parlours, your Blockbuster video store, your Wal-Marts, even your ISPs.”
…at your McDonald’s, your Labor Pools, your Unemployment Line, your Prison Detention Cells, Chain-Gangs, Asylums, on your short bus, in your Janitor’s Broom Closets…
Haha – yeah, and there are b-tards in my pants pwning my dingleberries. Hahaha
You guys need better jobs, haha.
You need to get out more, punk. You and your little schoolhouse playground bullies ain’t shit.
Janelle Kyomoon
Jul 4th, 2007
I apparently found out today that Prokofy is just as prejudice and racist as she makes others out to be. Because I belong to a group I was immediately banned from renting a home, where I only wanted to play with my prims. Guess Intlibber will be getting my business now. I actually found Prokofy’s land quite reasonably priced. But apparently given her 400 lindens is enough reason to be consider griefing. Here is the lovely chat log that follows. Notice the adult behavior demonstrated by Prokofy
[16:48] Janelle Kyomoon: so why exactly did I get banned from your land for just renting a home?
[16:48] Prokofy Neva: You’re in a griefing group, goodbye, do not harass me by attempting to join my group and paying rent, you will only be banned and lose the rent
[16:51] Janelle Kyomoon: I have no griefers with me, I was just searching for land since Woodbury has been destroyed I liked the mainland and these rentals… so being a part of a group makes it possible to not rent your land? That seems prejudice
[16:51] Prokofy Neva: cry me a river, bye
[16:51] Janelle Kyomoon: whoa thats awfully mature of you
[16:52] Prokofy Neva: like it’s mature being in a kids’ griefing group and provocatively renting in order to grief and cause havoc? please, cut the bullshit, and move on
[16:52] Prokofy Neva: go play in the sandbox
[16:53] Janelle Kyomoon: I am in Woodbury Universty group to further learn about clothing in the metaverse and I am in the Prokofy Fan Club just because I find it humorous.. how is that childish? And just how am I a griefer?
[16:53] Prokofy Neva: *bursts out laughing*
[16:53] Prokofy Neva: MUTE
[16:54] Janelle Kyomoon: I am a griefer because I paid you money to use your land to play with my prims? Such adult behavior
Prokofy Neva
Jul 4th, 2007
>Prokofy… have you learned that my statement is true???? That if you constantly push this guys they will constantly push back. My dear dear Prokofy. You are too amusing for words. You won’t answer me because you know my words are right and it stings you to the very core.
Hi! I’m not able to come to your personal attack right now, but please restate your question and/or denunciation coherently, accompany it by two signed posts of persons with SL names on separate IPs, and I’ll be happy to give you a detailed response soon!
Reality
Jul 5th, 2007
“Hi! I’m not able to come to your personal attack right now, but please restate your question and/or denunciation coherently, accompany it by two signed posts of persons with SL names on separate IPs, and I’ll be happy to give you a detailed response soon!”
Ah yes, when all else fails- hide behind bullshit and cowardice eh dearie?
I hate to break it to you dearie, but the world does not dance to your tune.
Jessica Holyoke
Jul 5th, 2007
Prok, If Janelle complied with your original request for two avatars backing her up, why do you feel the need to change the requirements for responding?
Alyx Stoklitsky
Jul 5th, 2007
Oh look, Prokofy has resorted to sticking her fingers in her ears again – just like she does every other time people have ever disagreed with her.
I hope you gave Janelle’s money back, and if you didn’t, I hope she reports you for fraud.
You are acting like an immature little crybaby and what’s worse is that you have treated her like scum for no other reason than that she is in the Woodbury group.
That is your ONLY reason. Because she’s in the woodbury group.
Great work, Prok. Awesome standards you have.
This looks to me like an exact repeat of what happened over at Second Citizen.
NobodyImportant
Jul 5th, 2007
Dear “SomebodyImportant”
First of all, are you really so uncreative that you must parody my name? I call myself NobodyImportant for the sole reason that I am not important. I’m not a president or an admin or anything of the sort, hence I don’t try to delude myself into thinking I am.
Secondly, I do know – for a fact – that there are /b/-tards and /b/ lurkers all over. If you hang around /b/ long enough, you will see threads about “where you work” and the like. In fact, I have a friend who works for an ISP address – both she and her boss are /b/-tards.
I’m not saying this to be cocky, I’m saying it because it’s a simple truth. When you take a normal person and give them anonymity, human nature kicks in. That person has a good chance they will act like a complete asshole, because they have no reputation to lose when nobody knows who they are.
This is the very reason you can know even a single /b/-tard and not truly know what they are. Jack, that guy who lives just two houses over, with a stable daytime job and a steady girlfriend could be a /b/-tard, and you’d never know. All he has to do is browse /b/ enough for him to consider himself a ‘regular’, and he pretty much is one. If Jack’s good at keeping his internet dealings and his real life separate, you might never find out.
This is my point. This is why I agree with what Clift said, and this is why I agree under certain conditions: As I stated earlier, Anonymous can be a dumbass. If some idiot /b/-tard is running around spouting /b/ memes regardless of context, they’re not staying “under the radar”, so to speak.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 5th, 2007
Jessica, you really should apply your keen sense of justice and conformity to law and practice to *Woodbury University vis-a-vis the TOS and CS of Second Life* and stop pecking at me.
Janelle is not in good faith here. Surely you studied good faith and bad faith in your law classes? She’s part of a conspiratorial griefer group, “The Prokofy Fan Club” whose sole purpose is to annoy, harass, heckle, enter groups to rent for the purpose of harassing, griefing, etc.
I urged her to find 2 other people, and that means she doesn’t just get to invoke them out of thin air, they have to post. Ok, so she brings two of her Siamese twins from her griefing group, and let’s say they even both post, and both have separate IPs, i.e. they aren’t her alts. So…then what? I asked her to frame her attack/question coherently. Because so far, all I hear her saying is “Woodbury University didn’t do anything” and I reply by saying “Woodbury University is in fact a conspiracy to commit crime and lie about it”. So there isn’t much to respond to, really, I’ve responded in the previous posts.
Please *do* try to apply your keen sense of law *to crimes* and not to people who expose them. Thanks in advance!
IntLibber Brautigan
Jul 5th, 2007
I received a very civil phone call from Professor Clift today in response to my phone message left at his office at the real WU campus. He was civil, courteous, well mannered, respectful, and rather obviously passionate about teaching his students skills in the virtual world that they can take on to meaningful careers in the real world. He was rather upset that his pilot project intended to look at the feasibility of a virtual campus was so badly wrecked by non-university miscreants, and further that it has brought the university’s dedication to online education into question.
It also cost Tizzers her job with the university.
I have suggested that Woodbury University might be able to come back to SL if it were under the authority of an estate that cared about keeping residents secure, such as those of Brautigan & Tuck Holdings (AVIX: BNT), and if the university imposed standards of admission for online avatar students, such as av age requirements of 30 days or more and/or payment status, to demonstrate an individual is a dedicated SL resident and not an invading raider.
He was very enthusiastic about these suggestions and plans on pursuing them with the university administration and Linden Lab to resolve this situation. I expect to teleconference with the administration and then LL to discuss this proposal, and invite serious suggestions from the SL community, as well as volunteers from around SL who would be willing to teach on campus.
If WU were to return under these auspices, I can guarantee that the campus will be covered by the Banlink system (www.slbanlink.com) as well as our own Ng Security’s Rat Thing agent profiler system, which has integrated banlink capabilities. In addition, our well respected operatives and agents infiltrated within griefing internet sites will be vigilant for any sign of further attempted infiltration of the campus.
It will not become a haven for griefers, and it will fulfill its mission to educate.
Jessica Holyoke
Jul 5th, 2007
First, I didn’t make a motion and have two people post to support me,but you responded. So you will respond to some people.
Second, you are the one who created the rules as to how you would respond and then you changed them. Providing two Second Life residents with first and last names is not the same requirement as having them both individually to post to second and third a request from two different IP addresses. I almost feel that if Janelle did comply with your requests now, you’ll say that IP addresses can be changed or dynamic and you wouldn’t count the seconding postings as well. In other words, you still left yourself an out for a reason not to reply.
Third, you ejected and banned Janelle not because she was involved in griefing activity, but because she was associated with those who grief. And maybe you were completely reasonable in your rejection of her rental and banning her from your land. Perhaps that was the best way to protect your tenants from potential griefing activity. Also, in light of what happened to Woodbury and the responses Robin Linden gave you, banning Janelle was likely the proper thing. But calling Janelle a griefer or saying a group that doesn’t like you is a ‘griefing conspiracy’ out to get you doesn’t win you points.
Fourth, no I’m not contradicting myself. I’ve always stated that a landlord does not have as wide responsibility for their tenant’s actions as you previously implied. Renting to someone who you have a reasonable suspicion might engage in illegal activity is something a landlord is responsible for, because its his own actions being called into account. You may call it nit-picking, but that’s what the law is about.
Fifth, Janelle, I hope you got a refund. That was not made clear by Prokofy or yourself, but he doesn’t have a requirement to rent to you if he has a reasonable belief that you would bring in griefer activity. Actually, he doesn’t have a requirement to rent to you at all. In SL, there’s no fair housing act or similar law. Its all based on who you want to deal with.
shockwave yareach
Jul 5th, 2007
It cost Tizzers her job, eh? Well now — I guess the internet IS serious after all. Hmmm?
Oh, but no worries. There are plenty of LULZ now, and those members of SL who manage to enjoy themselves without harrassing others are collectively having an excellent laugh. Thanks so much for the entertainment.
I love it when bullies discover that they aren’t as untouchable as they think. If one acts like an ass, one eventually gets buried in one’s own s**t.
shockwave yareach
Jul 5th, 2007
Janelle:
While I certainly have no fondness for Prok, I have to side with her on this. She’s quite in the right to do with her land (emphasis: HER land) as she wishes to do. And if she doesn’t want to do business with you because of your connections with griefing groups, then so be it. You can just go find someone else to rent from. Maybe this will cause you to reevaluate your being part of certain groups, considering their well-known activities. Even if you yourself do nothing but sit back and laugh, if you are a part of the group, then you share the group’s reputation. And you can’t be surprised when people who dislike certain troublemaking groups have a less than glowing impression of you because of your allegiances to them.
Besides, why do you care in the first place? It’s only the internet. Aren’t you feeling the LULZ now? Copying logs and posting them into public, clearly against the TOS… someone is taking stuff way too seriously.
Buretin Peart
Jul 5th, 2007
Wait, so why did Tizzers lose her job at the university? Was Tizzers in charge of the school’s Second Life project? After Linden Lab terminated the island, surely Tizzers could gather enough documentation, correspondence, screenshots and notes that would provide evidence that the school funds were being correctly appropriated to pay for proper academic pursuits instead of being used as a griefer base for repeated TOS-violators? Did the school not take too keenly to the fact that a personal phone call from the Senior Vice President of Linden Lab to discuss these TOS violations went ignored?
Second Lulz Vigilante
Jul 5th, 2007
I see there were a bunch of replies yesterday. Don’t you guys have anything better to do on the 4th of July than reply to blog threads? :p
@all who say WU isn’t a griefer base
Yeah right. I suppose you’re going to tell me next that Paris Hilton is a good role model or some crap like that.
@ Alyx
“and the only people permabanned after the sim’s removal were PN alts – which were replaced minutes later.”
Yeah griefers make alts and show up again minutes later. Big deal. Just another guy to super orbit. They keep coming back for it which makes it even funnier. >:D
“Conclusion? No greifers lost out atall…”
Then why are all the griefers whining about WU being closed? Like I said suck it up and deal with it. Jeez, internet…SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!111!!! :p
“…and you’re still gonna get crashed and caged and orbitted.”
1) I don’t own any land so I don’t care if you crash a sim or not. Just so long as I get to hold a griefer down and drop prim turds on his head is fun enough for me. Besides sims crash when you guys aren’t around anyway thanks to LL incompetence. It’s a far cry from the days when one guy with a replicator script was able to take down the entire grid by himself. Ho hum. Old meme and therefore unfunny.
2) There are defenses against being caged and orbited. That’s why most griefers go after really new looking people. Because they’re usually unarmed and don’t know how to do things like turn off a particle beacon.
Have fun with your griefing until somebody holds you down, kicks you in the nutz, and posts the video on YouTube.
@ Meatloaf X
I don’t yiff(it’s disgusting) but go ahead and believe whatever makes you feel better.
“if you want someone to cry to…”
I’m not crying. I’m just trolling the trolls. For the lulz of course. Get a sense of humor willya?*chuckles*
“Sounds like you’re a butthurt greifer to me (aka you do things that are bannable)…”
Butthurt? Nah. More like amused. Griefer? Hey I’m not going to deny that there’s a very thin line between a griefer and a real vigilante. Both of them do it for laughs and the reaction we get from our targets. The main difference between a griefer and a true vigilante is that the vigilante’s targets are quite obviously begging to be super-orbited and worse. And their usual hypocrisy when they get de-balled just makes it all the funnier. Next time you get griefed you ought to give it a try.
“…the kind that doesn’t have fun…”
Yeah like there’s a LOT of fun things to do on second life besides chatting, making things, and humiliating a griefer when they show up and shoot you with a freebie weapon that bounces off your shield. And no, your cybersex and gambling habits don’t count because they’re about as boring as counting holes in the accoustic ceiling tile. Quit being a moron. *chuckles*
“…just obsess over people that grief for fun.”
I don’t have to obsess or go hunting for griefers. That’s the great thing about it. These griefer assclowns will show up sooner or later without me having to look for them(there’s a lot of them remember?) I just go about my usual business until one or a gang of them show up, punch them in the e-mouth, and get an interesting diversion. But most of the time I don’t even think about them until they actually show up.
“BTW, Ive never heard of a vigilante or any non linden that actually was a threat, just whiny lolcows that threatened to report everyone…”
Yeah there’s a LOT of chameleons out there who think they’re real vigilantes. I lol at them just like you do. Some of these amateurs go on “griefer hunts”. But like I said you don’t need to go looking for griferfags. They’ll show up once or twice a week without looking for them. And we don’t threaten to abuse report them. We just sit back and laugh our asses off when the grieferfags threaten to report us though. Typical griefer illogic is hilarious!
“…an imaginary league of vigilantes with pushguns won’t stop people like PN or W-hat.”
I never said we were a “league”. Way to try and put words in someone else’s mouth. We’re actually as disorganized as anything on SL and we’re few in number next to those fake vigilantes. About the most organized thing we ever do is get together and trade stories. We’re more of a mindset than an actual internet culture and it’s most likely going to stay that way because getting organized is too much work.
And the aim isn’t to “stop” PN, W-Hat, or any other griefers. We know we can’t “stop” them as you put it. The aim is to give them a taste of their own medicine and laugh at their reactions. We do it for laughs just like they do. But our lulz are funnier. The griefer and the vigilante will never “stop” each other permanently. It’s not like shooting someone in RL for fuck’s sake.
BTW, a real vigilante doesn’t use a pushgun. Freebie weapons off the shelf from Yadni’s are for beginners. Our weapons are hard to spot and use point and click select or a channel command. We don’t need to go into mouselook to hit our targets.
But for real, be open-minded and try dishing out some vigilantism before you criticize it next time. Then you’ll at least be able to state an informed opinion about it.
IntLibber Brautigan
Jul 5th, 2007
I’m not going to get into whatever politics there are at her school. Suffice it to say that you’re making a lot of assumptions without evidence, something one is so used to seeing here on the Herald.
As reiterated before, Woodbury University group had been policed for more than two months by not just myself and my security staff, but members of JLU. Any persons attempting to promote griefing, coordinate griefing, or brag about griefing were promptly and swiftly ARd and banned from SL or banlinked. Tizzers Foxchase volunteered to invite us into her group to help police it. The vilification of her here by Prok and her minions is both unwarranted and unfair, but what we’ve all come to expect from the Prokasaurus. Of course Tizzers, being a young person, seems to enjoy torquing off 50+ year old crazy cat ladies, about what one expects from folks of that age. Hell, a lot of the rest of us enjoy it too.
Also, Shockwave: copying and pasting chatlogs OUTSIDE SL is NOT a ToS violation. Copying and pasting them in-world is. LL has no authority or right to control what chat content is posted elsewhere in the world so long as the client allows chat logging on ones own PC. The chatlog text files on my PC are my property, not LL’s. LL can claim neither authorship nor posession at any point of custody.
Prok can do what she wants with her land. She is free to defraud her tenants of their duly paid rent or rental period. Such is the nature of SL. The rest of us are also free to publicize and judge her on her behavior, and let the market decide if they want to risk their rents on her properties. That is how truly free markets work. The ladies have a right to publicly complain about Proks behavior. Just cause Prok CAN steal peoples money doesn’t mean the market should LET HER.
Similarly, Prok is free to discrminate against people based on group affiliation. We all are. However those we discriminate against are also free to publicize how they are treated at our hands to signal the market, and to let it decide our fate in the marketplace. Again, this is how the market works.
Until avatars are identity verified, we must operate by the most serious laissez faire principles: trust by verifying, secure your assets, don’t depend on others, take care of yourself, etc. That is the lesson of SL: to teach people self responsibility again, a skill that our modern nanny-state has so strenuously tried to strip from us (a state that Prok wholly supports and is attempting to implement here in SL).
Griefing is IMHO tacitly permitted to occur on the grid by Linden Lab because it appears that they believe that conflict maximizes creativity and imagination. Those who grief are also being taught lessons and tested: learning to behave themselves within the ToS via a carrot and stick of opportunities and penalties, griefers pass or fail this ‘game’. Living is winning. Joining the B& is losing.
Those who are griefed are also being taught lessons and tested: Prok continues to rant and accomplish nothing because her behavior is another type of losing the ‘game’. She refuses to use the tools at hand to implement her own security: using Abuse Reports, SLBanlink, or commercial security products like those produced by Ng Security. When you refuse to take personal responsibility for the security of your own property, you lose, and get griefed. You also cause damage to your neighbors when your negligence results in their property being griefed by sim crashing, spamming, etc.
When I was a new estate owner, I was taught this lesson. I don’t like it, it costs me money, and IMHO people who are not landowners should be free to enjoy the great features of SL without suffering in the combat zones known as sandboxes. People should be free to rez cars on roads, drive around, fly around, etc. It should be LL’s responsibility to keep non-residents out of the grid. Getting an account doesn’t make you a resident.
However if SL is to become the next phase of the internet, it must grow remarkably fast, and it must open the grid. Solving issues of security now will make an open grid in the future much more secure. Landowners therefore must assume responsibility for their own land, even at the cost of turning off features to the general public that are exploitable for destruction. The lack of ability to use such features may encourage non-payment users to get legitimate premium accounts.
Janelle Kyomoon
Jul 5th, 2007
Jessica, no I did not get a refund but I expected no less.
While I do agree with some that it is her land and she has the right to ban, it was her final decision, so be it. No sweat off of my back. I will find another rental some place in the metaverse.
The thing I do not agree with is my being lumped in with others b/c of a title. The only title that has been linked with a griefer group that I am in is Woodbury University.
I was part of Woodbury University before any accusations of griefing. I used Woodbury University as a place to learn about the clothing and clothing aspects in Second Life. Woodbury was a place for learning and many refuse to see that.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 5th, 2007
First, I didn’t make a motion and have two people post to support me,but you responded. So you will respond to some people.
Jessica, I know you love to word-parse and literalize all day — it’s a power thing. But it makes you look stupid. If you got a response, it was merely to clarify my overall rule in a generic way. People who mount vicious personal attacks and make false claims about me have freedom of speech at the Herald. I’m not *obliged* to answer them. I’m tired of answering them in full; so is everybody else. So I’ve created a simple rule that should reduce this problem handily — SL names and real posts seconding and thirding these accusations that always appear. If you can’t understand the spirit in which this was done — and its clarification — and have to word-salad and parse and comment-fisk everything — then you’re the problem adding to the annoyances of these boards.
BTW, TN has revived the concept of “comment-fisking”; here’s an essay on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking
>Second, you are the one who created the rules as to how you would respond and then you changed them. Providing two Second Life residents with first and last names is not the same requirement as having them both individually to post to second and third a request from two different IP addresses.
I didn’t change the rules. You are comment-fisking. The INTENT of the rules was clear: to have two OTHER people SHOW UP in the comments. People can make up two alts, or claim two friends before they’ve actually brought the friends on, or sign with the friends. It’s only because people are cunning and malicious and oh-so-clever — like you’re being, Jessica, that one has to clarify rules in this fashion. So I have. Suck it up, and stop whining and fisking.
>I almost feel that if Janelle did comply with your requests now, you’ll say that IP addresses can be changed or dynamic and you wouldn’t count the seconding postings as well. In other words, you still left yourself an out for a reason not to reply.
If I wanted to endlessly bully her with specious additions to my requests, I surely could, eh? It would be EXACTLY in the spirit in which YOU behave on these boards and which SHE behaves, and which all people NOT IN GOOD FAITH behave. But what’s important now is to get her COHERENT claim. What is her claim? That Woodbury isn’t a conspiracy? I’ve explained how it is, through parody, through direct speech, through comments. I really don’t see WHAT more could be explained, but hey, if those two friends of her REALLY show up here and post and REALLY make a coherent attack/assault/question that can be answered, I don’t mind cluttering up the Herald comments some more — but I do wish people would cooperate in cluttering them up less with this kind of FISKING.
>Third, you ejected and banned Janelle not because she was involved in griefing activity, but because she was associated with those who grief.
Absolutely. Because she’s not acting in good faith, Jessica. Could you PLEASE review your law-school notes on GOOD FAITH and BAD FAITH. She’s in a griefing group — a conspiracy to commit a crime. It’s not a “guilt-by-assocation” problem you can plead and bleat about with liberal concerns that in fact are turned on their ear by these very griefers. They come to the rentals with intent to grief. Three other members of this group: — Hazim Gazov, Tizzers Foxchase, Runny Panacea — all came to low-cost Ravenglass Rentals home to rent so that they could then plead that they weren’t joining the group to harass, but to rent. But of course they proceeded to grief. Runny even brought in an entire posse. So they can and should be expelled. Hazim prim-littered and put up hate signs. Tizzers scouted out targets and then whistled to send in Woodbury Security to attack innocent tenants — furries — they hated. If a *fourth* comes along and then rents, they get the BAN/EJECT button faster than you can say “griefer”. Intent to grief is an easy thing to read.
If someone wants to mount a lawsuit on housing discrimination through a RL court, they’re welcome to do that. My rentals remain open to the public, regardless of payment status or lifestile. Some people who have griefed in the past, if they show real signs of having genuine remorse and understanding, are let back.
But you don’t let back the constant parade of griefers and their alts.
I guess you failed to understand property law and torts in your courses, or slept through the lectures. It’s fair to say that these people have cost me HUNDREDS of U.S. dollars in literal property damage, tenant move-outs, and waste of time cleaning up and preventing them. It’s truly a problem, and I’d love to see a class-action suit mounted by all the people who have been griefed by this group to try to obtain justice.
>And maybe you were completely reasonable in your rejection of her rental and banning her from your land. Perhaps that was the best way to protect your tenants from potential griefing activity. Also, in light of what happened to Woodbury and the responses Robin Linden gave you, banning Janelle was likely the proper thing. But calling Janelle a griefer or saying a group that doesn’t like you is a ‘griefing conspiracy’ out to get you doesn’t win you points.
What doesn’t win YOU points is your gullible, airheaded extremist viewpoint that people should be “granted good-faith benefit of the doubt” forever and anon, even though they are in a CONSPIRACY, which is a group of two or more people INTENT ON COMMITTING A CRIME. Go back to your law books.
Janelle *is* a griefer; she has joined a group whose sole purpose is to grief. What is griefing? Singling out a person by name; creating a group just about them; harassing them in the charter and activities of the group; coming to annoy them on their land; harassing and taunting them. Trust me, this can be abuse reported and Lindens will act on it.
Janelle isn’t “driving while black” or “renting while being a furry”; she’s a member of a conscious, deliberate harassment group that has its members constantly IM me and constantly send me teleportation invitations all night in the hopes that I will stupidly click on them (as Intlibber and all the rest of this group were doing all last night). That’s harassment. The Lindens treat it as harassment.
The idea that you’re supposed to espouse some sort of liberal civil liberties notion here of “not guilty until proven so” or “don’t judge by past crimes” or “don’t discriminate against the group due to affiliation” are laughable. I’m not even going to argue this on the basis — as others would — that people can deny access to land for any reason or no reason as is their right.
I’m going to argue it merely as a classic conspiracy problem. “Guilt by association” doesn’t extend forever as a concept. “Collective responsibility” isn’t endlessly prohibited. Once criminal intent — conspiracy — enters into the equation, groups have less rights.
If a group of Irish tenants who belonged to a softball club regularly got roaring drunk and broke the doors and windows of their apartment, would the landlord who evicted them be charged with discrimination against Irish people, or against the softball club, if he had record after record of multiple persons with Irish surnames in this softball club drunk and disorderly and damaging his property? Of course not. If their sister, or girlfriend, or new club member with a Spanish surname came in, would he be charged with “discrimination” if he looked cross-eyed at them and denied them a rental? Of course not.
The ability to endlessly cite liberal concepts like “no guilt by association” and “no collective responsibility” is limited when it comes to groups with track records of criminal intent and criminal action. There’d never be a mafia prosecution, Jessica, if the dons could endlessly claim they were merely an Italian family.
>Fourth, no I’m not contradicting myself. I’ve always stated that a landlord does not have as wide responsibility for their tenant’s actions as you previously implied.
Yes, they do. When you grow up, and have to *be* a landlord and own property or when you have acquired more experience as a tenant or property owner in RL or SL, you’ll come to see this. Your eagerness to avoid and evade responsibility is part of the folly of youth.
>Renting to someone who you have a reasonable suspicion might engage in illegal activity is something a landlord is responsible for, because its his own actions being called into account. You may call it nit-picking, but that’s what the law is about.
What’s your point here? That’s what *I’m* saying. I’ve just laid out that argument, and asked it of Robin. Robin made it clear for SL: if you have refused to manage your island, when confronted, and given the tools for management, then you are negligible and the Lindens seize your island.
>Fifth, Janelle, I hope you got a refund. That was not made clear by Prokofy or yourself, but he doesn’t have a requirement to rent to you if he has a reasonable belief that you would bring in griefer activity. Actually, he doesn’t have a requirement to rent to you at all. In SL, there’s no fair housing act or similar law. Its all based on who you want to deal with
No, Janelle gets no refunds. I am holding all payments made to me in bad faith by griefers because I’ve suffered damage of property, lost work time, and lost access time for my tenants to their stores. Sorry, but you don’t get to weep tiers for evil land barons on this one. You’re failing to realize the set-up. I maintain OPEN rentals. Open groups, open boxes, that people can openly come and openly pay on self-service, without that daunting array of invitations, ban-lines, and GULAG security notices about having 15 seconds to clear the area. It’s precisely because I have a liberal OPEN society here that the griefers exploit it. I continue to maintain that openness is the best policy. Intlibber spends gadzillion amounts of hours and Lindens on security, armed forces, ban-links, and all kinds of insanity, and in the end, become so insane about his failure to ban people from these determined groups that he decided to capitalute to them and join them, in the belief that if you can’t beat them, join them, and bore from within. It’s pathetic to watch.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 5th, 2007
>The thing I do not agree with is my being lumped in with others b/c of a title. The only title that has been linked with a griefer group that I am in is Woodbury University.
>I was part of Woodbury University before any accusations of griefing. I used Woodbury University as a place to learn about the clothing and clothing aspects in Second Life. Woodbury was a place for learning and many refuse to see that.
Did you forget that you’re in the Prokofy Neva fan-club, a conspiracy to grief? Woodbury was not a place for learning; this is a lie. Show us the clothes you made for sale or for giveaway? It’s all fake.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 5th, 2007
I love it when the extreme right and the extreme left make common cause in conspiracies, because it helps discredit them both!
>I received a very civil phone call from Professor Clift today in response to my phone message left at his office at the real WU campus. He was civil, courteous, well mannered, respectful, and rather obviously passionate about teaching his students skills in the virtual world that they can take on to meaningful careers in the real world.
I found him to be rude, evasive, and lacking in any website, publications, or reading list, making me seriously question his professorial bona fides. That really IS troubling — a course with no website, reading list, nothing?? No publications except that one Marxist one???
And if he were sincere about “teaching virtual skills,” where was he for six months? Nobody saw him log in hardly at all. These kids griefed around and he was either oblivious or secretly egging them on in some wierd conspiracy or experiment. This is all as bogus as the day as long.
>He was rather upset that his pilot project intended to look at the feasibility of a virtual campus was so badly wrecked by non-university miscreants, and further that it has brought the university’s dedication to online education into question.
Perhaps that’s because he and Tizzers were in on this from the beginning? Funny how his radical chic language of yesterday to Pixeleen, about minority rights and sticking it to the Man has evaporated, and in this phone call with Intlibbery, he is Eddie Haskell incarnate! Suddenly, these people doing the griefing are “non-university miscreants,” where only yesterday, with Pix, they were um…Hispanic and black minorities shunned by RL society whom he was providing an urgently-needed educational opportunity for, defying um….Linden dress code.” I mean, which is it? This is bogus.
>It also cost Tizzers her job with the university.
I think this is a good lesson for all the kids at W-hat, b/tardistan/v-5, un-v-5, Prokofy Fan Club, or whatever they call themselves: yes, the Internets is serious business. Yes, people take the Internet seriously. Yes, what you do online which you think shouldn’t be taken seriously is in fact taken seriously by people in RL.
>I have suggested that Woodbury University might be able to come back to SL if it were under the authority of an estate that cared about keeping residents secure, such as those of Brautigan & Tuck Holdings (AVIX: BNT),
Given that these entities have shown that they take care of griefers by excessive security, espionage, infiltration of griefer groups, and then acceptance of the criminality of griefer groups as long as they only grief people they don’t like, I wouldn’t advise WU to go with this.
>and if the university imposed standards of admission for online avatar students, such as av age requirements of 30 days or more and/or payment status, to demonstrate an individual is a dedicated SL resident and not an invading raider.
v-5 and w-hat and all the rest are quite capable of getting 30-day accounts with payment information available to commit griefing acts — seen it done all the time. NPIOF is not the only guise they use.
>He was very enthusiastic about these suggestions and plans on pursuing them with the university administration and Linden Lab to resolve this situation.
I *do* fervently hope that neither his bosses or LL falls for this gambit, which is merely a metastisized griefing operation.
>I expect to teleconference with the administration and then LL to discuss this proposal, and invite serious suggestions from the SL community, as well as volunteers from around SL who would be willing to teach on campus.
My suggestion would be to close it, and for Woodbury to find another department or professor unassociated with this nihilist griefing ideology to manage the program. I’d also urge them to stay away from security and espionage outfits like Intlibber, and to make a careful examination of all his investment claims and projects in SL.
>If WU were to return under these auspices, I can guarantee that the campus will be covered by the Banlink system (www.slbanlink.com) as well as our own Ng Security’s Rat Thing agent profiler system, which has integrated banlink capabilities.
What happened to Intlibbers’ claims that he can’t beat w-hat/v-5/goons with these tools, that he had to concede defeat, so he now goes and buys out the criminals by offers to teach them how to use spacebux? Huh?
>In addition, our well respected operatives and agents infiltrated within griefing internet sites will be vigilant for any sign of further attempted infiltration of the campus.
This entire security-state mindset is the problem. The infiltrators become one with the griefers. They use the same illicit methods as the griefers. They allow the griefers to make attacks on people they don’t like. This is the same dynamic we see the world over, whether with the death squads of Latin America or the KGB’s successors.
>It will not become a haven for griefers, and it will fulfill its mission to educate.
I have no doubt that if this affair proceeds as Intlibber wishes, we will see a repeat of Satyr and Woodbury U 1.0 within 6 months.
shockwave yareach
Jul 5th, 2007
IntLibber:
When you crash the simulator, you cause problems with everyone and everything in it. Builds get lost and inventory vanishes. You also cause a ripple of problems as the sim comes back online and has to restore data from central servers and reconnect to the neighboring servers. There is NO GOOD EXCUSE for deliberately causing a sim that YOU DO NOT RUN to go down. None. Just because you CAN is not good enough — we CAN push the button and start a thermonuclear war, but that doesn’t mean we should.
As for general griefing, under some circumstances, it can be funny. If you are doing some of these things in regions marked as combat zones, I’d have no problems with most of them (except orbitting – that crashs clients and must stop). Done correctly in places where people expect to find combat, things like a poodle gun, jello swarm or wang crossbow would be a riot.
Trouble is, most of the griefers aren’t into it to be funny. They aren’t here to cooperate and to play, no. They like being anonymous badasses and enjoy ruining other people’s work and good times for their own enjoyment. They view everyone else in the metaverse as having no other reason for being except to entertain them. May as well put chains around our necks and fire guns at our feet while yelling for us to dance, it’s the same thing. We aren’t here to entertain the PN or the Btards (or any other friend of Woodbury). And by forcing others to play with them, regardless of what others want, the griefers make their low regard for their fellow creators abundantly clear.
shockwave yareach
Jul 5th, 2007
Janelle, if you didn’t get the rental, then Prokefy owes you your money back. Publicizing that is quite proper, I’ll agree with you there. But as to her personal reasons why, I don’t see that that has anything to do with it.
Prok, if you are the sort of person who takes money but fails to deliver the goods, and won’t refund the money if you are unable or unwilling to complete a transaction, then you are a crook, plain and simple. And the screeds and beliefs of a known crook have zero weight or influence upon me, if I bother to read them at all.
Why Bother
Jul 5th, 2007
Intlib I believe that if you bring Woodbury back there will be such a public outcry against it. It seems the majority don’t want it on the grid. You stand arrogantly against everyone spouting your business. You are simply in this for the free publicity and for the money. You smelt it a mile away and came running. You have no idea how much of your reputation you have eroded lately.
I suggest this to everyone out there willing. If Intlibber brings back Woodbury, has any part in it, that his business should be boycotted in protest. No one should deal with him and any tenants willing should leave his land.
Keep this in mind, no where have I seen any other University and educational body in SL coming to Woodbury’s defense. No where have I seen them come to Woodbury’s aid. Don’t you think this has an affect on them? Well, it seems like they were sick of the way an educational sim was used and the way it sullied all the other Universities in SL.
The majority don’t want Woodbury back. Yet you Intlibber seem hell bent on restoring it. Go create your own grid as you’ve talked much about before. Go create it, and sit there with your cronies, with your arms around Tizzers and your “reformed” PN. I don’t want you on the LL grid anymore, and I’m pretty sure more people are starting to feel the same way.
SomebodyImportant
Jul 5th, 2007
“NobodyImportant” – sorry to attack you so personally, its just that the small clique of people that peruse 4chan, /b/tards, and similar message boards tend to think the entire world revolves around their little memes and cliches.
In fact, many of the memes and cliches claimed by members of those message boards have actually been imported from more popular sites like SomethingAwful.com, Fark.com, SlashDot, etc…
Just because you have a bunch of friends that dress and talk alike, it doesn’t mean you have any influence outside of your little koffe klatch message board. In reality, it’s nothing more than a circlejerk of a few loosely affiliated juveniles.
See you at Wal-Mart.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 5th, 2007
shockwave, no, sorry, Janelle does not deserve shit.
When this conspiratorial griefing group deliberately rents from me with intent to grief, they can’t expect refunds. I refunded Tizzers the first time she pulled this shit; after her reconaissance missions, whistling to her goons to grief my tenants, and her *partner* Runny Panacek renting in order to grief an hour after the sim was crashed went down, no, sorry, I don’t do refunds with shit like that. And I don’t refund people who, even after those obvious rounds of griefing from this conspiratorial group, come and rent *again* for the purpose of provoking and annoying. No. Maybe the kids will learn to stop poking and provoking by spending $300 or $400 on rentals this way : )
Alyx Stoklitsky
Jul 5th, 2007
>seconlulz vigilante
“Just another guy to super orbit. They keep coming back for it which makes it even funnier. >:D”
Until someone like me reports you for assault. Lulz.
“Conclusion? No greifers lost out atall…”
The *griefers* aren’t whining. Have you read ANY of Mootykip’s posts? He doesn’t give a shit, and why should he?
anon
Jul 5th, 2007
>>Besides, why do you care in the first place? It’s only the internet. Aren’t you feeling the LULZ now? Copying logs and posting them into public, clearly against the TOS… someone is taking stuff way too seriously.
Prok has done this numerous times. And I thought that only applied to the Second Life forums?
>>Yeah griefers make alts and show up again minutes later. Big deal. Just another guy to super orbit. They keep coming back for it which makes it even funnier. >:D
Now this is a funny comment. I’d pay to see you try and do that to a member of the PN. You’d probably get your ass handed to you in the process, since they aren’t the average moron with a cage gun. lol I just hate these kinds of guys who use proTEC or some similar gadgets and think they are tough shit. At least develop some of your own stuff, sheesh.
Reality
Jul 5th, 2007
“When this conspiratorial griefing group deliberately rents from me with intent to grief, they can’t expect refunds. I refunded Tizzers the first time she pulled this shit; after her reconaissance missions, whistling to her goons to grief my tenants, and her *partner* Runny Panacek renting in order to grief an hour after the sim was crashed went down, no, sorry, I don’t do refunds with shit like that. And I don’t refund people who, even after those obvious rounds of griefing from this conspiratorial group, come and rent *again* for the purpose of provoking and annoying. No. Maybe the kids will learn to stop poking and provoking by spending $300 or $400 on rentals this way”
Dearie? You know quite literally nothing about individual users. You literally have no way of knowing what purpose a user is renting your land for (,b>until they actually have the land rented – not rocket science dearie.
Someone belongs to a group you do not like? Big deal.
Here’s a thought for you though dearie: Ban all of second Life from your rentals! after all, there is no telling if each and every user will ever become a part of a group you dislike now is there? Best to play it safe! (since i know for a fact that you are daft enough to miss this … I am being sarcastic dearie).
shockwave yareach
Jul 5th, 2007
Prok: Morally and legally, you have no ground to stand on. Someone paid you for something and you declined to do business with them. That’s fine – I’d love it if somehow nobody wished to sell any griefcausing punk anything ever again. Make the little bastards have to pay a penalty for the messes that they make. But other than “you don’t like them”, you have no real reason to refuse her refund. No doubt if you prepaid me for one of my elevators and I told you to get lost and held the (considerable sum of) money, you’d be very irrate. What you are doing is no different.
So you are going to stop wrongdoing by exacting a bit of wrongdoing yourself. Yes, yes I can see how that would work. After all, the approach has been SO successfuly implemented in the real world. Take the middle east, for instance…
What you do or don’t do is fully your own affair. But until now, I’ve only thought of you as longwinded and a little paranoid. Crooked never entered my mind, with all your high vaulted idealism. While not shocked — I haven’t been shocked since 2003 — I am somewhat disappointed in how readily you jumped into the gutter and played right into their hands by making them the good guys who were ripped off by the Prok. They played you masterfully.
Oh, your A string is a little flat, btw.
Jessica Holyoke
Jul 5th, 2007
Prok,
You really taught me about fisking. I’m glad that you were able to give me such a good lesson on it.
I thought Ravenglass contained a series of rentals and that most rentals in Sl are open to the public at large. You don’t have people filling out renter’s applications. They go to a home and pay for a rental box. Isnt’ your open door policy the way everyone on SL leases out apartments?
You also really need to stop quoting law to me and others, because you might be misleading other people in what is the law. Conspiracy needs more than intent, you need an agreement to commit a crime, the intent to enter into the agreement, an intent to acheive the purpose of the agreement and, typically, an overt act in order to have a conspiracy. However, you might have enough circumstantial evidence to show that Janelle was part of a conspiracy. But its not definate. Maybe she joined the group because she doesn’t like you. My problem is why is it that you get to decide to keep her money. Aren’t you biased on that point? (not that Janelle is completely blameless. If you joined an “I hate Prok” group, why would you give him money in the first place?)
And just because Robin Linden says something, doesn’t make it true in the RW. I would like to hear what situation happened to you where you were held responsible for the actions of your tenants outside of the RW premises.
In ending, good faith doesn’t mean accepting everything that you write as true solely because you wrote it. Like your use of the words ‘good faith’, which deal with honesty in facts and dealings. How am I not being honest Prok? I’m basing everything I write on the law and the facts provided to me here, which is the only place that I frequently post. Just because they don’t agree with your version of the facts, doesn’t mean I’m acting in bad faith.
Second Lulz Vigilante
Jul 5th, 2007
@ Alyx
“Until someone like me reports you for assault. Lulz.”
That’s what they always say they’re going to do. If any of them have actually reported me I honestly can’t say. But grieferfags have certainly threatened me with it doxens of Times and lo and behold…not so much as a slap on the wrist for my vigilantism. Double lulz.
Which leads me to think that either a)the griefers don’t really mean it when they threaten to AR me or b)there are so many skirmishes going on per day that LL can’t keep track of it all or c)LL doesn’t really give a damn unless a sim crashes.
I’ve heard of a few cases where a Linden did show up though to break up a fight between griefers and vigs after an overly concerned third party showed up. They give little homilies to any griefers and vigilantes involved, then the griefer feigns innocent noobism about the rules, and nobody gets banned. So I’m not worried about AR threats any more than the griefers are. Got to crash or lag whole sims before the Lindens take notice it seems like at least on the mainland. You’ll come to understand this seeing as how you’re going to be stuck in the mainland sims for quite some time. *chuckles*
“Have you read ANY of Mootykip’s posts? He doesn’t give a shit, and why should he?”
I didn’t mention mooty specifically. And you’re probably right about him not giving a shit. It’s all the OTHER griefers boo-hooing over this series of reports that are the scource of my amusement. Especially also the griefers an enablers who are screaming to high Heaven that they’re innocent like you and that Tizzers chick. mootykips just happens to be a little smarter than you. Hell maybe he’s played you guys from the get go. *shrugs*
Anyway this whole business is Comedy Gold no matter how you look at it. :p
NobodyImportant
Jul 5th, 2007
“SomebodyImportant”:
Actually, I don’t go to Wal-Mart.
You are correct about SomethingAwful, and from what I understand of /b/’s history, many people who first populated /b/ came from SA – hence why we share many memes. /b/ has created memes of its own, though, through the magic of Original Content and GETs (though more often than not, it’s simply a FailGET or Forced Meme like Milhouse).
And by the way, you’re stereotyping. Assuming everyone who visits /b/ is a “juvenile” is a stupid thing to do – and it seems like you’re following suit with the traditional ‘butthurt trolled user’ response of attempting to demean the trollers by calling them children or teenage neckbeards who live in their parents’ basements.
Mark
Jul 5th, 2007
“[16:51] Janelle Kyomoon: I have no griefers with me, I was just searching for land since Woodbury has been destroyed I liked the mainland and these rentals… so being a part of a group makes it possible to not rent your land? That seems prejudice”
This is what I meant about these fucktards thinking they’re so very clever.
These ARE Eddie Haskell tactics if I have EVER seen them. Out of literally 1000′s of places offering rentals, Janelle goes WHERE to rent? Ravenglass. Then she tries to sell the line that she just happened to “like these rentals”. Gee, that’s kind of odd! What a COINCIDENCE!
-1337 Plausible Deniability Points.
You have run out of Plausible Deniability Points.
You have died.
Game over.
Prokofy Neva
Jul 5th, 2007
>Prok, if you are the sort of person who takes money but fails to deliver the goods, and won’t refund the money if you are unable or unwilling to complete a transaction, then you are a crook, plain and simple. And the screeds and beliefs of a known crook have zero weight or influence upon me, if I bother to read them at all.
I’m hardly a crook. When these assholes attacked me the other night, in the course of trying to eject them and return the shit they were trying to rez, I accidently forced into return some of the parking lot in the build — something I can’t get replaced because the oldbie who made it is no longer in SL, which means I’ll have to pay to get it textured and replaced again.
My tenants’ stores were off limits while I struggled to contain all the bullshit they were rezzing and particle blasting everywhere.
I had to close my group to new tenants as they abuse the open group by joining so as to set prims.
I had to waste and hour of my precious time trying to contain this gross and major griefing attack on my sim by a dozen people.
And that’s not to mention all the pain and suffering and material damage these same people have caused to me and my tenants in the past year. I had one set of furry tenants who were long-time customers who rented 3 large lots who suddenly decided to move out and refunded a large amount of advance payment because Tizzers and her anti-furry goons came and shot them and their scripted animals — they are furries — and even wrecked some of their property.
Sorry, but they’re the crooks here. If I have some lousy $700 from these people to even begin to offset the phenomenal damages they’ve caused me over the last year, it’s all to the good.
The only transaction that should be completed in regard to these people is the filing of a lawsuit against them for harassment and destruction of virtual property and denial-of-service attacks.
Janelle Kyomoon
Jul 5th, 2007
Dear Prokofy,
You automatically assume that if something is not to your liking then it is griefing and/or a conspiracy. You really need to go to the point that its a conspiracy theory. You have no true fact supporting your claims. And without facts it remains a theory. Everyone has an opinion in this and everyone is entitled to one. You, me, Jessica, everyone on this forum is entitled to their opinion. You believe its a conspiracy. I believe its a true college that allowed me creative freedom in a virtual world that I could take back into real life. I live in a very small town with a very small community college that offers no real creative freedom, but it is my only option in colleges if I would like to stay near my husband and child. Woodbury offered me a way to express my creative freedom through clothing design and you will not see my clothes for sell because my reasoning for creating clothing in second life is to use it as a drawing board for real life. You see, I am not an artist I am a student of Information Systems and Networking. I can barely draw a stick figure let alone a design for making my own clothing in real life. My clothing and costumes I made in real life where creations out of my own mind and plays on already made patterns. Which in turn had alot of failures b/c I was only seeing what was in my mind. Not really having a reference point to go off of. My use for clothing in Second Life was purely artistic and educational you see. For I was playing with what was in my minds eyes and forming actual reference points to bring back into real life. Woodbury offered me a home and office to learn more of making clothing with prims and what was allowed in the second life universe, a creative freedom which is needed for students. I am part of the Woodbury University group FOR educational and creative purposes. You CAN NOT call me a greifer just because I am in a group. I was in the Woodbury group before any knowledge of griefing and never particpated in griefing. While I give to you that the Prokofy Fan Club is a silly group, its just that, a silly group. I think what truly needs to be defined here is what griefing is. What the Lindens see as greifing, what the general public on Second Life sees as greifing. You have attacked me on this forum, so does that mean you have griefed me? How does joining a club that pokes fun at being your fan mean that I have griefed you? I think what really truly needs to be defined here in my situation is what is griefing. I have no intent to grief anyone. My intent in Second Life is my own love of fashion. I have spent NUMEROUS lindens on fashions that have interested me. I have slaved over trying to learn the prims so that I can truly find a way to bring my ideas to life in the real world and virtual world. We have unfortunately only received one viewpoint of Woodbury in the Herald and that is yours Prokofy. I for one want to show that Woodbury is not a conspiracy and I am taking the steps to do so. I agree with you, there were griefers that came to Woodbury, but I myself saw them banned. I HAD someone grief me and the WERE banned. Woodbury is not the evil demon you make it out to be. It as institution that wants to give life to the creative seed that is in students everywhere.
Rock Ramona
Jul 5th, 2007
lets see here…director of school reads Time article about new world called SecondLife…gives money to set up his own sim..lets immature students run rampant without guidence…immature students get in trouble,duh……victims of immature students raise hell contact school…director realizes his immature students have gotten out of hand goes into spin mode……………………….siigh