The Bare Facts: Nudism in Second Life

by Alphaville Herald on 21/07/07 at 1:00 pm

by Lisae Boucher

[After the Herald's recent story on closer scrutiny by Linden Lab of images that might be considered "broadly offensive," we were contracted by Lisae Boucher (mentioned in the article), who asked to weigh in on a related issue: the practice of non-sexual nudism in Second Life. Here, she looks at how the virtual practice relates to the real thing, and bring up some cultural differences that prevail between Europe and America. Enjoy. Although not at work.
--Walker Spaight]

Let’s start with one important quote: “Nudity is a taboo in America because we primarily equate nudity or nakedness with sexuality and we have taboos about sexuality,” said Matthew Westra, a psychology professor at Longview Community College in Missouri. (All quotes in this article reference this National Geographic story. — Ed.) “A lot of it has to do, I think, with the Puritan and Victorian heritage that we have, which says that any kind of temptation will lead you into hell.” According to the same article, a recent national poll found that 80 percent of the U.S. public feels it’s okay to have a nude beach, as long as it is marked by a sign, while 25 percent of adults polled said they’d gone skinny-dipping in mixed company at least once in their life.

What do these statements mean? And what do they have to do with Second Life? It seems that Americans value the freedoms to live your personal lifestyle but also the right to not be offended by other people’s lifestyles. In addition, that’s about about 75 million people in the U.S. who have had some nudism experience in mixed company. Which is quite a lot of people.

Considering these numbers, it is no surprise that you would find similar numbers in the Second Life environment. Actually, since Second Life seems to focus on a mature audience, the proportion of nudity and even sex is probably a lot larger than in real life. In the virtual world, of course, mature areas are clearly marked. But how could Second Life implement a safe area for people who simply enjoy the virtual nudist lifestyle? Would it be appropriate to have nudist areas in PG-rated sims, for instance? After all, in real life, there are many family nudist resorts where you would have many families including young children having the basic clothes-less fun. There are even a few teens-only nudist resorts which are limited for teens only. These are just like regular summer camps but without the clothes.

Of course, there will be people wondering about how easily things could become sexual in those areas. What people tend to forget, however, is that nudity has very little to do with sex: you don’t need to be nude to have sex. It can happen anywhere. But one thing I do know from my own experience is that people in nudist areas tend to be a bit more aware of other people’s body language. There is an awareness that not all visitors are coming over just for the lifestyle. There are occasionally visitors who come over carrying hidden cameras so they can take all kinds of nude pictures. Then again, the same does happen at regular beaches with people using hidden cameras for the same purpose.

Would a PG nudist area in Second Life ever be allowed? It would, of course, need to have a clear sign to warn people that it is a nudist area. And it would need a lot of moderation from both the Lindens as the owner and other visitors of the area. A bit similar to the moderation that is going on in family nudist areas where simple things like tattoos and genital piercings are frowned upon, and where showing an erection in public is enough reasons for a person to be expelled from the area. The same would be required within Second Life, in that case. Since this would be needed 24/7 it just tends to become too big a task to be handled by volunteers. It is already tough for Linden Lab to prevent abuse in non-nude PG areas. Having a nudist PG area would probably add too much pressure. So don’t hold your breath, PG nudists.

Mature nudist areas might present fewer problems. But how to keep a distinction between a nudist area and the more sex-oriented areas? There will always be people visiting nudist areas to find someone to have sex with, with very little to stopp them from having sex in public. One way to prevent this is by reserving separate areas for visitors who crave their virtual fleshy lusts, making it clear to them that having virtual sex is okay, as long as it is not in public view. In real-life nudist holiday areas, visitors often just rent a room to have more privacy for those kinds of things. In general those rooms are just for people who stay for a few nights and need a place to sleep, but nudists are human too. Sex does play a part in the nudist lifestyle, but it’s still something that is done in private. After all, it’s where the baby nudists come from.

It’s an open question whether nudist areas in Second Life would have any chance at all to stay just nudist areas without changing into huge sex resorts. In real life, this is often a difficult task, but many areas have volunteers willing to take action when they see people having sex or taking pictures in secret. In Second Life, such monitoring is a bit more difficult since it would depend on many volunteers to keep the area clear. Even so, a Mature sim would not be appropriate for a virtual family nudist resort. In real life, nudist areas aren’t always easily accessible and are often kept out of view by having fences and groups of trees around them, and of course clear signs warning people about what to expect within. In Second Life, where you can just teleport to any location and where fences don’t make much sense, the task of obscuring a plot from view becomes difficult. Self-policing in virtual worlds, however, works fine. If certain kinds of material are offending you, then why even visit such locations?

In the end, it may only be a cultural difference brought on by the collision of geography that takes place in Second Life More facts drawn from the National Geographic article are instructive: There are a lot of different opinions about nudism in the world. Most European countries are far more open in their opinions about nudism than the U.S. While naturists continue to struggle for acceptance in the United States, in Europe it’s usually a non-issue. “France has more clothing-optional beaches and campsites than you can possibly number. Croatia has nude beaches up and down the coast. So does Italy and the southern coast of Spain. Germany has large city parks where you can hang out naked. The United States is the only Western country that is still struggling to figure this issue out.”

61 Responses to “The Bare Facts: Nudism in Second Life”

Prokofy Neva

Jul 21st, 2007

“Nudity is a taboo in America because we primarily equate nudity or nakedness with sexuality and we have taboos about sexuality,” said Matthew Westra, a psychology professor at Longview Community College in Missouri. (All quotes in this article reference this National Geographic story. — Ed.) “A lot of it has to do, I think, with the Puritan and Victorian heritage that we have, which says that any kind of temptation will lead you into hell.”

This is all bullshit, and merely one tendentious quotation and comment (community college? Missouri?!) that hardly represents sophisticated views on this question — it shows all the earmarks of selective Googlized research.

If Americans have any religious heritage that might give them taboos, hey, where did they get *that*? From their *European ancestors*, many of whom *maintain these points of view* lol and from other parts of the world that Lisae ought to pick on before she bangs on Americans for being prudish — how about countries where women are kept under the veil, or not allowed to divorce or inherit property?

And I don’t see that Lisae’s variant of cultic nudism is about freedom at all. In fact, in all her other comments (cleverly omitted here), she is very shrill on her belief that no one should become aroused by nudity; that indeed, to become aroused by nudity is “sick”. It’s part of that neo-geo geeky religiosity that espouses hatred of the body and wishes to eliminate organic life and its messiness.

And that’s just plain sick itself, repressive, and so typical of how political-correctism becomes as oppressive as the thing it tries to fight. I don’t see why we have to be mandated or coerced to neutralize nudity; it’s offensive to be doing that to other people.

Americans aren’t at all the prudes this writer imagines them to be; there are obviously nude colonies in America and surely many more people than indicated have had experience skinny dipping.
Neko Longduk

Jul 21st, 2007

Interesting article. You make the extrapolation that, since 25% of Americans have said they’ve gone skinny dipping in mixed company, the same percentages likely exist in SL. However, remember that less than 30% of the avatars in SL are controlled by US residents. The collision of geography you mention, and the attitudes outside the US regarding nudism, probably make the percentage of people in SL who are OK with nudism considerably higher than 25%.
dandellion Kimban

Jul 21st, 2007

This one is inspirative (in more ways than one ). It made me rumble about nudism here: http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2007/the-joy-of-nudism
Beside that, this post has some points that are very objectionable. I don’t know why it goes on with US stats and then transferring them to the SL, cause we know that there are more European than US residents (I am lazy to search for the link but I will if you really need it).

Then, I don’t see why nudist resorts should be placed in PG areas. Mature areas does not have to be related to sex, they might to but it is not mandatory. I’ve seen many parcels in mature areas that easily can be PG. I guess I am not the only one that feels PG like a resort for those Victorian people who are offended with a bit of skin. It is ok, they have their right for their fun, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of the grid must be filled with sex and violence. You build your nudist sim in mature area and regulate sex with your own policy. Skybox can be raised above the clouds if hot SL sun make our virtual blood running faster. I saw more than one place like that. And all were doing very nice.

One thing is very problematic in the post: “And it would need a lot of moderation from both the Lindens as the owner and other visitors of the area.” No! Lindens are not here to be cops for our policies! Lindes are here to care about the grid, not to patrol around if somebody forgot to hide their genital attachment or using pose balls where sim owners don’t want them to.
dandellion Kimban

Jul 21st, 2007

@Prok: Not all taboos has religious background. Though I agree that much of American culture is inherited from older sister Europe, it is to be said that European culture is diverse and that large part of those first Americans were very radical in their puritanism.
The statement that nudity should not arouse is a bullshit, but as a long term nudist I know that nude beach is not much of a sexual place.
Alaska Metro

Jul 21st, 2007

“There are even a few teens-only nudist resorts which are limited for teens only. These are just like regular summer camps but without the clothes.”

Where were these when I was a teen? :O

There is something to the idea that people in a nudist environment read body langauge better and aren’t as sexual with each other… where I live, I started going to the city’s nude beach. It’s the only beach where I live where I DON’T get constantly hit on. The other beaches are meat markets, but not this one.
Prokofy Neva

Jul 21st, 2007

@Prok: Not all taboos has religious background. Though I agree that much of American culture is inherited from older sister Europe, it is to be said that European culture is diverse and that large part of those first Americans were very radical in their puritanism.
The statement that nudity should not arouse is a bullshit, but as a long term nudist I know that nude beach is not much of a sexual place.

I’m not the one who said it has a religious background, though in part it does; it’s also simply practical in many parts of the world. IT’s the OP who cited “experts” claiming it is “Victorian”. The radical puritanism we’re seeing *now* is coming from Lisae who insists that nudism be adopted as the gold standard for civilization, and everything else is prudish, repressive, or “sick”.

I’m not certain that it is an accomplishment or progress to make nudity a neutrality. The people propagandizing this point of view seem to eager to suppress normal human feeling, and show themselves as masters of the universe.
Prokofy Neva

Jul 21st, 2007

This article on nudism is quite thoughtful and thorough and lists all the “situational ethics” — some of them quite rigid and even hysterical” — that nudists develop so as to avoid the charge that they are looking for an easy out to obtain erotic views of other human beings, and also to avoid abuse of nudity.

Imagine a place where you would have to forcefully suppress any natural inclination you had to look at a beautiful body, or be aroused by an erotic scene. In which you had to forego sunglasses as socially, these were viewed as suspect because you might be ogling someone behind them surreptiously. In which you couldn’t look at a breast while you were talking for fear they’d think you were being a lech, etc. etc.

It sounds totally totalitarian and cruel, and you wonder what freedom is left over to “enjoy naturism” after you’ve had to follow this hugely rigid code.

It sounds to me like yet another cult.

http://www.british-naturism.org.uk/pages/pages.asp?page_ID=288
Daman Tenk

Jul 21st, 2007

“If Americans have any religious heritage that might give them taboos, hey, where did they get *that*? From their *European ancestors*, many of whom *maintain these points of view* lol and from other parts of the world that Lisae ought to pick on before she bangs on Americans for being prudish”

Yes, the founding fathers were Europeans. But they were kicked out of Europe exactly for being too stuck, too prudish, fundamentalist christian bigots.

Just compare European and American christianity if you want to see who’s the prudes.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 21st, 2007

Prokofy, here I’ve presented a respectable news source (National Geographic) quoting the words of Professor Matthew Westra and within 90 minutes you have already decided that he’s beneath you. Just because you disagree with his opinion, you seem to think his opinion just doesn’t count.

Neko, I did refer to Western countries but that is still not the whole world. There is the whole African continent and Asia that probably will have different numbers. Same with South-America and a lot of other countries. My problem is that I don’t have exact numbers about those areas and to be honest, no one really knows. How many nudists are there anyways in a country like China? There are a lot Chinese people in Second Life but I can’t find reliable numbers about the number of nudists in many non-western cultures. I do know that it is very culture-specific. For some cultures showing even a little bit of female skin is considered offensive. In other cultures, women are naked all the time and men just wear a penis sheath because otherwise that thing would just swing in all directions.

Quote from dandellion: The statement that nudity should not arouse is a bullshit, but as a long term nudist I know that nude beach is not much of a sexual place.

Well, of course nudity can cause arousal amongst people. Looking at a pretty girl in bikini can already cause arousal. Even a woman in a long evening gown can cause arousal. But most often those are just spontaneous moments of arousal. It would be weird if a person continues to stay aroused for as long as he looks at a woman in an evening dress, right? The same is true about nudism. Especially guys who visit a nudist resort for the first time often fear that they won’t be able to control their libido. Their main fear is sticking out in the crowd, literally. But after a while they just forget about all the nudity.
There are of course people who just continues to stay aroused and when they visit nudist resorts, they do tend to be noticed sooner or later. There are people (fortunately, not many) who visit nudist areas just hoping to get some sex or maybe even because they just want to masturbate while looking at naked people. But many sooner or later realize that people in nudist areas are more aware of their presence which and that’s one thing that tends to keep them away.

But being aroused by nudes? It seems to be just another fetish to me. Some get aroused by dirty socks, others by short dresses, more just want someone to hit them with whips and use nipple-clamps upon them. And there are people who get aroused by piercings and tattoos. There are so many fetishes out there and being aroused by nudity just happens to be a common one. But for me this just seems so weird and unnatural. Just plain nudity doesn’t trigger such a response with me. So yeah, in my mind it appears to be a bit strange. Or sick, although that might not be the best definition for it.

Prokofy is right about one thing, though. Nudism did start out as just another cult with very strict rules. Nudists nowadays are divided in many different groups. You could refer to them as just a lot of small cults within one larger one. But you can say exactly the same about e.g. religion. For example, isn’t Christianity just another cult too? Divided into many different subcults and even smaller subsubcults? Let’s focus on Christianity then. You can divide it in Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, Anglican, Latter-day Saints, Evangelical, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Quakers and many more. Together, they account for about one-third of this world’s population. Nudism “only” has been practiced by 25% of all Americans. A higher percentage for other Westerners and unknown (to me) for the other parts of this world. Thus, if nudism was a religious cult, it would be quite a big one too.
So how is nudism divided into subcults? Well, of course you have the very traditional nudists whom still think nudism should follow some very strict guidelines. Then there are the family nudist areas that are suitable for the whole family. The teen areas that are just for teens. Nowadays there are even gay nudist areas for gay men since some nudist took offense to male couples holding hands at the regular areas. There are the home nudists for people who just want to be nude in the privacy of their own homes and garden. There are also the so-called hedonist areas which are adult areas only and where they do focus on sexuality, but also on other ways how people can please themselves including drugs and alcohol. But even for nudists such behavior is often considered extremely decadent. Then again, you can also visit a strip club and call that nudism too but the only part it shares is the nude parts.
Another related topic is of course women being topless. People can wonder about why women would need to cover their breasts in any area where guys can walk around topless. You can also wonder what role this will play in Second Life. In reality, women already have the same rights as guys in this regard. Thus if a guy can walk around in some location topless then women have the same rights. A woman who was falsely arrested for having a topless stroll in New york a couple of years ago, filed a complaint and received $ 29.000 as compensation. Since 1992 the state of New York concluded that women have the same rights as men to take off their shirts.

Is nudism a cult? Maybe it used to be but nowadays there are so many views on nudism that no one can consider it to be just a single cult. Just as no one can consider Christianity as one single cult.
Espresso Saarinen

Jul 21st, 2007

having worked in european countries alongside ex-pat brits and usa folk, the prudishness of these two groups is two standard deviations out from most of europe, but brits even more than usa. and prurience seems to go with the prudishness; can you say ‘hipocracy?’ canadians seem to have a bit of the disease as well.

asia varies widely, a whole different story.
Kryss Wanweird

Jul 21st, 2007

“The United States is the only Western country that is still struggling to figure this issue out.”

LMAO

Last time I checked USA was struggling over international politics, but, nudism?

For your information, apart from some French Caribbean Islands, in the remaining parts of the Americas, nudism is not a common practice, and is restricted do nudist beaches, which are totally unpopular. At least, in my country, only very few ugly people go there.

This article is crap in the most purest form.
Prokofy Neva

Jul 21st, 2007

>Prokofy, here I’ve presented a respectable news source (National Geographic) quoting the words of Professor Matthew Westra and within 90 minutes you have already decided that he’s beneath you. Just because you disagree with his opinion, you seem to think his opinion just doesn’t count.

National Geographic is almost a joke; the joke about National Geographic is that they always run pictures of native women from indigenous tribes who happen to be bare-breasted, and that’s the first look that many teenage boys used to get of tits before they could manage to get Playboy. That a professor in a community college in Missouri is suddenly the world’s expert on nudism or psychology or *anything* just because they have an appointment in a community college — and get mentioned in National Geographic — doesn’t mean a goodamn thing. It’s not a credible and recognizable source. It’s merely Googled up.

Nudism is not the norm in Europe; to pretend that because in the subset of sects in Europe there are more nudists than in the subset of sects in the U.S. is some kind of meaningful statement is just sectarianism, which we’ve come to expect from this source. I don’t notice any Europeans stampeding to this thread to cheer it.

BTW, that’s a clever trick, trying to get away with putting in what appear to be nake minors into this story.

>In other cultures, women are naked all the time and men just wear a penis sheath because otherwise that thing would just swing in all directions.

These are primitive cultures far in the minority in the world, and citing them is silly.

This is all so oppressive and controlling. It's merely about Lisae's own deep-seated fears, bad experiences, and youth that are dictating this desire to tell other people what to do; to find some rigid, controlling setting she herself can be in, and for her to decide "just how long someone gets to be aroused" is just plain fucking ridiculous. Just because someone hides behind nudism doesn't mean they aren't a prude lol.

>There are of course people who just continues to stay aroused and when they visit nudist resorts, they do tend to be noticed sooner or later. There are people (fortunately, not many) who visit nudist areas just hoping to get some sex or maybe even because they just want to masturbate while looking at naked people. But many sooner or later realize that people in nudist areas are more aware of their presence which and that’s one thing that tends to keep them away.

The fact that in SL, all the sex beaches where people go nude are almost exclusively about sex and having sex out in the open with strangers lets us know that nudism is merely one more form of human inhibition with its own set of ethics, prudities, rationalities for restrictions, etc. and that as soon as people are anonymous and unaccountable, this is one of the things they shed. That’s why a “proper” nudist beach never got started in SL.

>But being aroused by nudes? It seems to be just another fetish to me.

Let’s leave Lisae to her tiny, Puritanical sect, shall we? And sure, laugh yourself silly at her comparing fetishes like “dirty socks” with the norm most everywhere in the world, which eroticizes the nude. Never let the mainstream pass as the norm, however, see if you can turn that, too, into a wierd sect just because you’re contorted yourself into a pretzel ROFL.

For example, isn’t Christianity just another cult too? Divided into many different subcults and even smaller subsubcults?

No, it’s organized religion, and mainstream religion with many practitioners, and this or that rite differing from one denomination to another doesn’t detract from its overall similarity and organizing principle.

>Together, they account for about one-third of this world’s population.

Incorrect information, and not important, anyway, as Christianity is the basis for values, morality, and culture even in those countries where people have ceased to be practitioners per se.

No, that’s bullshit, Internet research, badly performed. Google some more ROFL.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 21st, 2007

Yeah, you’re right Kryss. Naturists are ugly. Lynn Redgrave is ugly. Bridget Fonda is ugly. Brigitte Bardot is ugly. Christy Brinkley is ugly. Amy Grant likes to go topless oversees so she must be half ugly. Bruce Willis is ugly. Helen Mirren is ugly. Uma Thurman is ugly. Jackie Kennedy Onassis was ugly. Kevin Bacon is ugly. And well, I could name dozens of other people who earm more cash in one hour than you in a whole life who all must be ugly because they not just approve nudity, they have also been spotted in nudist resorts and other nudist areas.

As if people would only go to nudist areas to see perfect bodies and beautiful people. Get real! Nudism isn’t even about how people look. It is about who we are and about just feeling comfortable with ourselves and out bodies. Going beyond the shame that people tend to have when it’s their first time. This is such a difference with the textile areas where looks tend to be so extremely important. Is that also why so many people feel so insecure about their own bodies that they just starve themselves to death simply because they think they’re too fat? Or why people have their breasts enlarged, their penises enlarged, implant lips and probably even have butt implants simply because they’re unhappy with their own bodies?
I’ve read that in 2005 there were over 10 million people having plastic surgery. This went up with another million people in 2006. I just wished I had similar statistics about Europe but I haven’t found a reliable source to quote for this. It would still be interesting to know, though. Without these numbers I cannot prove the fact that people in Europe are more comfortable with their own bodies. But based upon my own experiences, I think many people are.

And nudism not being a common practice in the USA? Well, that explains one reason why so many Americans like to have holidays abroad, in foreign countries. Then again, California tends to be a popular place for nudists. On the other hand, Alaska is for some strange reason very unpopular. People don’t seem to warm up for the idea of walking around butt naked. Another state popular for nudists is Florida. A bit in Indiana too. And Michigan. And Missouri. And New York. And North Carolina. And Ohio. And Pennsylvania. And Texas. All these states have at least 5 or more MAJOR nudist areas within their borders.

I have to admit that the number is quite low compared to the European Union but let’s compare a few things. Europe is 4,324,782 square kilometers compared to 9,826,630 for the united states. Europe has a population of 490,426,060 compared to 301,139,947 in the USA. So, Europe has a population density of 113 people per square kilometer. The USA has a density of 30 people per square kilometer. So what do these numbers mean? Well, in the USA there are still so many unpopulated areas left that people can do things in certain areas without anyone ever noticing things. In Europe, the density tends to become so big that privacy tends to become an issue. Thus where people in the USA can just go skinny dipping in some deserted area, such a thing would be a lot harder in Europe. So nudism has been more accepted here.
Brennan

Jul 21st, 2007

Lisae, a cult is defined by a group of people who do not accept outsiders and have different practices from the Norm, most Religions are not Cults, because they want Outsiders to join them, being nudist isn’t a cult either since outsiders can join too.

The Amish are classified as a cult, as they do not let outsiders join there community and they have different practices outside of the norm.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 21st, 2007

Quote: Nudism is not the norm in Europe

Yeah, right… Barcelona in Spain happens to be one major clothing-optional city. There are no rules there against public nudity. Actually, Spain barely even has any laws against nudity. And with over 500 clothing-optional beaches in Spain, it’s no surprise that this country has been such a popular holiday location for the rest of Europe.
Greece is also a country where naturism is practiced widely. Legally, it is restricted to certain areas but reality it is practiced on almost every Greek island.
In France there’s Cap d’Agte which just happens to be one complete nudist village. You won’t find many clothes there. Believe me, I know.
And the list just continues but I won’t bother continuing since how does this even relate to Second Life?

You just don’t know a thing about this topic, do you? You’re just typing words hoping they are true facts. You have nothing to back up your statements! Your examples about Christianity, for example. Organized? All I have to do is look at Northern Ireland where Catholics and Protestants are doing their best to reduce the population of the other side. Then again, those priests who abused little boys in the USA did seem to organize things somehow, especially the way they organized to pay off the victims after this organization failed to keep things covered up.
And apparently you’re just seeing more naked teens somewhere. What is it with you and your obsession for naked teens? I’m finding this extremely suspicious… Prokofy, I have to ask this. Are you a Catholic Priest?
Kryss Wanweird

Jul 21st, 2007

Lisae:

Scroll up.
Where did I say that nudists/naturists were ugly?

You are a disaster as an “artist”, a boring and poor “writer”, your arguments are vague and illogical, and now we learn that you also lack basic reading and comprehension skills.

Are you trying to blame yourself for you general incompetence by making a complete fool out of your pitiful self?
dandellion Kimban

Jul 21st, 2007

Nudism may be considered as one of the reactions on one if the inhibitions, but that inhibition is not much about sex. It is about clothes. One who swimed naked once in a lifetime knows what I mean.
Cocoanut Koala

Jul 21st, 2007

I don’t think it’s “sick” to be aroused by nudity.

I don’t think it’s a “common fetish” to be aroused by nudity.

Those seem like . . .pretty weird statements! We are built to be turned on by visual cues, as well as tactile and those of the other senses. You might as well say wanting to have sex is sick or a fetish.

Surely you don’t mean people should feel guilty by being aroused over nudity?

I think what you mean is, arousal is normally defined by social setting, which also varies by culture. For instance, gynecologists are not in a setting for arousal, generally speaking. And what’s acceptable in a bath house in Japan would not be acceptable on the street (to my knowledge).

Cultures differ. I don’t see how you can define your viewpoint as superior to others. What you would consider free and uninhibited, I would consider immodest.

coco
Salzie Sachertorte

Jul 21st, 2007

If you’d be more work friendly,photos & text, you’d have a much larger readership. All of us who can’t get into SL at work, yet can read about it.
Perkin Witherspoon

Jul 22nd, 2007

I walk around in SL naked nearly all the time and no one notices. The reason is I normally wear a 50% “human” 50% “machine” cyborg avatar and the skin of the human bits is textured to resemble kevlar rather than pinkish flesh. My avatar does not have genitals and has a fairly androgynous body shape to futher remove the focus of sexuality away from it. To be honest when I bought it I didn’t realise it was naked.

Nearly all the sims I regularly visit are Mature rated but not sex sims as such (e.g. Toxian City, Dark City) Dispite them being very adult at times I cant think when I have seen a naked person apart from myself. No one comments on my nakedness and to be honest it had not occurred to me. There are also other cyborgs and even more bizzare creatures like demons, nekos and werewolves wandering around which helps.

Last week I got a pm from an old friend from SL who I rarely speak to any more. She suggested we meet up for a chat in the Shelter as she still likes to hang out there. Within a few minutes of teleporting there several people had commented on my avatars nudity. Several people there found it highly offensive. Others seemed to find it funny that you can be nude in such a way. In the end my friend and I left to avoid confrontation. We ended up in a more mature club where two women noticed and commented on my nudity one asked me if I had a robot penis tucked away somewhere.

Second Life is a new place. It is evolving. It allows you to do things you would not be able to do in real life. These include flying, becoming an anthropomorphic animal, breathing underwater, shooting people in the head at point blank range with a shotgun and many other things. Most people in SL are tolerant of all of these most of the time.

If you don’t like to see people getting shot you avoid combat sims, if you dont like to see furries avoid luskwood. If you dont like to see naked people stick to PG areas. Its not hard. SL can accomodate everyone. Thats why we like it.
Flack Quartermass

Jul 22nd, 2007

Well said, Cocoanut.

Arousal, and indeed sex, are natural. Without them we would not exist to bullshit about this very topic. How is it we’re supposed to embrace nudism while oppressing our very instincts? That doesn’t sound very ‘natural’.

The topic itself has interesting ramifications with norms of various cultures and nations, and in particular, SL rules. Unfortunately, the article and commentary quickly descended into culture vs culture and a philosophy vs a religion.

SL already has a system in place to accommodate nudists/nudism/nude beaches. If you want to be nude, you can be nude in a mature area. If you don’t want any part of it, you can hang in PG areas.

It’s not perfect, it’s not an even keel that makes everyone happy, but it functions and I don’t see any great alternatives, certainly not the ones put forward in the article. A nudist island would probably make for a more controlled atmosphere that could work if well-managed (like anything else).

I just wish I could get a good explanation of what the rules will be for the upcoming “Adult” flagged areas.. but that’s another topic for a good opinionated flame-fest.

BTW, I’m not offended by nudity, and hey, if you dig it, go for it.

(Disclaimer: 1 American’s view among 300 million+, results will vary. Oh, and IANAL either.)
Lisae Boucher

Jul 22nd, 2007

Quote: We are built to be turned on by visual cues, as well as tactile and those of the other senses.

Which is oh, so true! Again, yes of course you can get aroused by nudity. But either it is under special conditions like a strip-tent or some porn magazine. But in a nudist resort? How about people who get aroused while traveling in the bus? Or sitting at work? Doing groceries? Or other normal-day activities? Well, maybe people do have short moments of arousal at such moments. But is is normal to get aroused every time you step into the bus? Or do groceries? Sitting at work?

Quote: Surely you don’t mean people should feel guilty by being aroused over nudity?

I don’t really know since I was never raised in a texture-required environment. But it sounds a bit like a trained condition to me. People learn as a child that clothes are good and nudity is bad. And for some reason, people consider doing bad things as exciting. Isn’t thins how people start drinking, smoking and doing drugs? Peer pressure? Something like “all my friends are doing this so I have to do this too?” So should people get aroused by nudity simply because others are?

And two quotes from Kryss Wanweird:
Quote 1: At least, in my country, only very few ugly people go there.
Quote 2: Where did I say that nudists/naturists were ugly?

No, all you said is that nudists in your country are ugly. Am surprised that you actually visited a nudist area to check that fact for yourself.
Prokofy Neva

Jul 22nd, 2007

Like I said, *nudism is not the norm in Europe*. And citing this or that beach here or there in a few countries does not mean it is the norm; it is not the norm. Oh, are we to define "norms" to mean "the existence of at least one beach in a country"? Then we can pronounce it the norm in the U.S. too, then ROFL.

One of the things I find absolutely hilarious about those who love to bash the Catholic Church of their child abuse lawsuits is that these are *the same people* who are willing to tolerate, and not get terribly worried about, gay relations between teenagers, and even between an adult and a teen, or a teen of an age of consent. And...that's what most of the Catholic cases are about: gay males who joined the priesthood because they were outcasts from all of society back decades ago, and their preying on gay teenagers or teenagers not yet formed in their sexuality. So if you are going to declare age of consent as a norm everywhere, what difference is it if a priest who is gay has sex with a 17-year-old? But if you are against that (as I would be), then you must declare it across the board, everywhere, and not raise consent when you feel like it when the cases aren't Catholic, or bash the Catholics in particular.

No, I'm not a Catholic priest, nor do I have to be anything of any sort to express concern about the publication of naked teenagers given that it falls under the laws of obscenity even for the U.S.
Seraphine

Jul 22nd, 2007

I have no problem with nudity as long as it’s not mandatory. I’m all for choice and full disclosure.
Frankly, after seeing some European men’s bathing suits, I understand why nude beaches are so popular.
Nina A

Jul 22nd, 2007

People can steal your skin if you go nude in SL. No one has mentioned that.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 22nd, 2007

Quote: those who love to bash the Catholic Church

True. However, it is a proven fact that Catholic priests have sexually abused altar boys. It is also a fact that the Catholic Church in the USA has to pay an enormous amount to the victims. At wikipedia (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases) there is a whole page dedicated to this topic. People aren’t bashing here. They’re only referring to the facts.

You are right that it sounds weird when people seem to approve minors having same-sex relationships with each others and/or with adults, yet disapprove those relationships of those priests. But the whole deal is that those priests are supposed to be celibate. That means: no sex. Furthermore, those priests are authority figures and thus they had a psychological advantage over their victims that they misused. Finally, the Catholic church seems to have a strong opinion against homosexuality. It’s a straight way to go to Hell. And yet it seems to happen so often. It is more than just gay men having sex. It’s about misuse of power and trust.

Quote: what difference is it if a priest who is gay has sex with a 17-year-old?

Misuse of power…
However, an average adult who has no direct influence over the teen and a teen having sex together? Gay or straight? Because sexual preference should not matter. You could wonder about that. But in reality? There are teens who chose out their own free will to have sex. Teen pregnancies are a very common problem. Actually, want to hear a sad case? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina Lina Medina holds the record for being the youngest mother ever, being pregnant before her 6th birthday. And she never revealed who the father of her child was.
If you follow that link you’ll also find a list of youngest mothers, all age 12 or younger. It is some disturbing reading, I admit that. Because it means that each and every girl in that list has been sexually abused.
Look a bit further and you’ll find a page related to teenage pregnancies, including some statistics. Teenage birth rate per 1000 women age 15-19 is interesting. For the Netherlands, only 5. For the USA about ten times more. In Niger the number is absurd. But still only 4 times higher than the USA.
Anyways, it is clear that there are either a lot of people abusing children or there are a lot of teens looking for sex. More likely, it’s a combination of both but knowing where one changes into the other isn’t easy.

One more thing… Since in several states, the age of consent is 16 or 17, not 18, it would thus be legal for a person age 17 to have sex with any adult of his choice. This is even lower for Canada.
Cocoanut Koala

Jul 22nd, 2007

Lisae’s QUOTE: Again, yes of course you can get aroused by nudity. But either it is under special conditions like a strip-tent or some porn magazine.

Well, that strikes me as a somewhat odd thing to say, too, for sure. Strip-tent or porn magazine?

How about – when you go to bed with someone?

It is not a perversion, or even “special conditions,” to respond to visual cues under such circumstances.

Moreover, those as the body becomes aroused, it changes, and those visual cues are further arousing.

QUOTE: “But in a nudist resort?”

No, I think that arousal there would be classified as as innapropriate, just as it is in the gynecologist’s office.

QUOTE: How about people who get aroused while traveling in the bus? Or sitting at work? Doing groceries? Or other normal-day activities? Well, maybe people do have short moments of arousal at such moments. But is is normal to get aroused every time you step into the bus? Or do groceries? Sitting at work?

I’m really not sure what you are getting at here. At all.

QUOTE: I don’t really know [if people should feel guilty by being aroused over nudity] since I was never raised in a texture-required environment.

I’m not sure you understood me at all here. People are aroused oby the bodies of the others; those are visual cues it is natural to respond to.

Not to get too personal, but what you have said would seem to imply that in sexual activities, you are never/would never be aroused by the nude form of your mate. Surely that would not be the case.

QUOTE: But it sounds a bit like a trained condition to me. People learn as a child that clothes are good and nudity is bad.

No, I think people learn as a child (ideally) that clothes are good and nudity is good, in the proper circumstances. (Those circumstances vary, depending on culture, as well as on individual differences.)

QUOTE: And for some reason, people consider doing bad things as exciting.

Well, I can agree with you here insofar as something forbidden is always more enticing. The thrill of the chase also heightens the ecstacy of the ultimate union. Revealing portions of the body not previously seen is also exciting.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with “bad,” really. And again, in different cultures, what can be seen (or often, done) with anyone versus with one’s choice of intimate partner does have a lot to do with what is particularly exciting.

I don’t think, actually, I have ever seen a culture wherein SOME part, however small, isn’t covered among adults. For those, the removal of that tiny part of clothing would be considered arousing.

I think people are aroused by nudity because it is built-in that they will be, to varying degrees.

But visuals are only a part of it. Chemicals, I think, actually play a much greater part in arousal. In any case, I see no more reason to feel guilty about the visual component than over the chemical one.

[QUOTE}Isn’t thins how people start drinking, smoking and doing drugs? Peer pressure? Something like “all my friends are doing this so I have to do this too?” So should people get aroused by nudity simply because others are?

I am getting the idea that – and forgive me if I have this wrong – you consider people who aren’t nudists (and perhaps a number who are) to be somewhat unenlightened in the area of sexuality.

However, what I read is that you might actually be discounting the visuals in your own experiences, and thus might be somewhat inhibiting yourself from full enjoyment, because of a refusal to acknowledge the visuals.

I could be wrong of course.

coco
Via

Jul 22nd, 2007

Prokofy Neva, I read you quite often here and in many other places. You are a prolific writer, and I like that you are passionate about your opinions. I agree with you more than half the time, and I generally believe in your fight and vision for SL.

Here and in so many other posts I am so fucking sick of your scathing, take-no-prisoners attempts at humiliating those you disagree with. Despite your intelligence, you’re often an annoying child.

Stop for a moment and take that in. You are so thin-skinned yourself, yet you escalate arguments beyond belief with hateful ad hominems and innuendo. By the way, don’t you notice that once you begin to go nuclear with your fuming, your logic often tends to falter?

You badly need to learn some humility and compassion, I feel.
Prokofy Neva

Jul 22nd, 2007

Oh, so now Lisae is celebrating *celibacy* as a value?! Just because the Catholic Church promotes it? That’s something that the rest of society should affirm as a value and hold them — or anybody — to it?!

Sex abuse by priests is wrong because it’s abuse *of minors* and indeed is a crime involving abuse of *power* of an authority figure trusted by children and young teens. It’s not prosecuted because the priests are supposed to be celebate. That’s irrelevant. If they were Episcopalians or Russian Orthodox priests, they could be married and this expectation would be moot.

So it’s silly to single out Catholics here, is indeed about bashing Catholics simply because I myself am Catholic by background, and is merely a cheap distraction and cheap form of bigotry. Catholic priests who molest children are committing crimes, and should be prosecuted. The crimes they commit are ones that Lisae seems willing to allow others to commit, however. Is it ok for adults in charge to allow one older teen to press another teen into sex prematurely, just because they are of “the age of consent”? Or jut merely get “a little concerned” if a 14 year old has sex with another 14-year-ld?

Laws involving child pornography don’t appear to rest on the issue of what state has which “age of consent”. In fact, in the U.S., pornographers have to provide by law written pledges that all models are 18 or over.

Lisae is merely distracting once again. Priests are simply irrelevant to a discussion of child pornography, the focus of the original report. Her works are what are at issue; either they meet the test of European law on child pornography or not. What others do or don’t do in their crimes are irrelevant to whether her art has been a) cleared by the Lindens b) cleared by EU legal standards.
Prokofy Neva

Jul 22nd, 2007

Since in several states, the age of consent is 16 or 17, not 18, it would thus be legal for a person age 17 to have sex with any adult of his choice. This is even lower for Canada.

See, this is an example of the fractured, unformed, and sectarian thinking of Lisae Boucher. ANY adult is a person in power; it is not merely “Catholic priests”. Why would it be ok for a 42 year old man to have sex with a 17-year-old in Canada (so she imagines) but then suddenly a crime “only for priests”? The law doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work that way. The law doesn’t say “priests are supposed to be celibate and supposed to be figurse of authority; random 42-year-old men are not supposed to be; therefore they get to have sex with 17-year-olds”.

That Lisae actually imagines the law to work in such a laughably juvenile fashion — prosecuting people she doesn’t like — Catholics — whom she thinks deserve to be bashed and selectively prosecuted because they set standards for sex she doesn’t like — whereas random 42-year-olds should NOT be prosecuted — that’s a good example of how the uneducated Internet-made mind works.

In fact, the law must prosecute both the priest and the 42-year-old random males because they are adults using their position of power as adults against an unformed teen, who must be protected by law until he is 18 or older.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 22nd, 2007

Quote: How about – when you go to bed with someone?

Well, that too, of course. But in general people would be actively looking for arousal. For a visitor in a strip-tent the visit would be to get aroused. But the lady dancing on a pole in her bare ass is just doing her job and I don’t think she’s aroused. Does anyone have some statistics about how many strip club dancers are aroused by their jobs?

Quote: It is not a perversion, or even “special conditions,” to respond to visual cues under such circumstances.

Depends on how it happens. I’ve seen guys at the nudist beach who suddenly had to excuse themselves and covered up with a towel for a few moments of discomfort. That just happens and often lasts a short moments. But in general when such a thing happens, it is frowned upon. And in some nudist areas people will be removed from the area if they don’t get their penis under control.

Quote: No, I think that arousal there would be classified as as innapropriate, just as it is in the gynecologist’s office.

Yeah, those are the most discomforting moments. Because of some medical problems I’ve had to spend way too much time in the chairs of gynecologists already. For some reason, having someone feel around your most private organs tends to be upsetting sometimes. For some, it’s actually some kind of fetish and rumor has it that there are women who can’t help it but just get an orgasm every time they have a visit of the gynecologist. It is just one of those situations when things are a bit hard to control. It is not something I would like to discuss further anyways. I’m just glad that I do have enough self-control at those moments.

Quote: I’m really not sure what you are getting at here.

Wel, I just wonder about how appropriate it would be to be aroused (for more than a few moments) when they are in a bus, at their office, buying groceries, while serving dinner in a restaurant or maybe even teaching in front of a class. What would you think of someone who suddenly gets sexually aroused in front of a school class with young children? I think I feel the same about people who get aroused in a nudist area. It’s definitely inappropriate.

Quote: People are aroused oby the bodies of the others; those are visual cues it is natural to respond to.

But what does cause this trigger? It seems to me people can just as easily become aroused at regular beaches. Actually, I think people are more likely to get aroused in textile areas but I can only judge that from the amount of times guys try to seduce me or any others. Sometimes, when I’m in the textile areas I see guys look at me as if they’re undressing me with their eyes. That’s one thing I don’t have to think about in the nudist areas…

Quote: you are never/would never be aroused by the nude form of your mate.

Well, personally? I’ve known my girlfriend for a few years before we started doing something sexual. It wasn’t love at first sight for me. I knew her preferences and I have to admit that she’s good looking so yeah, that helped a bit. But it’s her character that I’ve fallen in love with. It is a bit different for her, though. She has had several lovers before me but she mostly judges them on stamina, not looks. I happen to have good stamina.

Quote: No, I think people learn as a child (ideally) that clothes are good and nudity is good, in the proper circumstances.

I can’t speak for others but for me that’s true. My parents made it clear to me when to wear clothes and when I’m allowed to go naked. As a child, it was okay to be naked all day inside the house and topless in the garden. (Except for my fathers office but I wasn’t allowed access to that place anyways.) However, I also had to put my clothes back on when there would be visitors or when I’d go outside. It’s all just a matter of proper education. But my parents never told me that nudity was bad. They just made it clear that some people would take offense and that it’s bad to offend people. Which is a major difference. I like to be nude. I don’t like to offend people. So clothes tend to be a requirement. But if it was up to me, this whole world would be clothing optional and no one would be offended if someone else was naked. Nor would anyone be offended if someone was dressed.

Quote: Revealing portions of the body not previously seen is also exciting.

Here’s something missing at a nudist area. There isn’t much that can be revealed anymore.

Quote: I don’t think, actually, I have ever seen a culture wherein SOME part, however small, isn’t covered among adults.

Well, that would be mostly primitive cultures in most of the tropical areas. Although in many areas the men tend to wear penis sheaths but I think that’s more as protection than from modesty. The view on nudity has changed a lot during the centuries. But I’ve mentioned Barcelona already in one of my previous comments somewhere. Large city in Spain located to the Mediterranean sea and with really great weather. And for whatever reason it’s also a clothing-optional city where people are allowed to walk naked. Police can still ask you to put your clothes back on and they don’t give much attention to this either. But it is legal to be naked in Barcelona in all public places. It’s just that because people now have a choice, they tend to do what feels more comfortable. Which means that you won’t see that much nudity except near the busier beach areas.

Quote: Chemicals, I think, actually play a much greater part in arousal.

Imagine: You are at a nudist beach and your body starts producing arousal chemicals. How long would your body be able to do this? How will the body responds when you still have had no sex after half a dozen dozes of this arousal potion?
People who are new to nudist areas will spend some time being aroused but after a while that will go away for everyone, I think. (Unless people are having sex at nudist areas which I consider highly inappropriate.)

Quote: you consider people who aren’t nudists [snip] to be somewhat unenlightened in the area of sexuality.

No, I know non-nudists who happen to be very enlightened in the area of sexuality. It’s just that some people here are playing around with my words. I do think some of the people who did respond need some more enlightenment though, although you seem to know things quite well already. I also think there’s a huge cultural difference between me and some of the others here. Maybe it has something to do with education and how people in the Netherlands educate teens about sexuality. This compared to the USA where the President seems to think the best way to teach teens about sexuality is by teaching them abstinence.
When I was 12, my school handed out condoms to students. Just one per student so they all know what they look like. I kept mine until I was 13, then filled it with water to throw at some friends. It could hold a lot but I never managed to even lift it and while trying, it did what people fear the most out of condoms. It broke… So afterwards I decided to get some dry clothes and realized why balloons are much better for this. Never used a condom myself, though. As a lesbian, I don’t really need one anyway and they’re not very useful as water balloons.

Quote: and thus might be somewhat inhibiting yourself from full enjoyment, because of a refusal to acknowledge the visuals.

Oh, I like good visuals. Long legs, a B or C cup, not too heavy… A good body is a joy to look at, and a true piece of art sometimes. But for me it’s just not enough to be aroused. I need more than just visuals. A tender kiss, a nice hug, a touch in certain places. Those are the things that turn me on. I also like to flirt a bit, even with guys, but that’s just part of a game. In the end, I always end up in the arms of my lover. The flirting is just to hear from others that I look great. Nudist or not, I still like it when people admire my own looks. But only in locations where I think it’s appropriate.

I also have to admit that I care more about my looks when I’m at the textile beach than at the nudist beach. Visiting the textile beach means I’ll wax my legs, shave off my pubic hair and armpits, apply some oil and lotions on my skin to make it shinier and looking for a nice dress to wear over my bikini. Visiting the nudist area is just a matter of packing food and drinks and then wear whatever I’m wearing. Hairy or smooth doesn’t matter for me in those cases. Maybe it’s just me but I consider the textile area to be sexier than the nudist area.
Town Crier

Jul 22nd, 2007

Prok makes the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC sound like THE WEEKLY READER with saggy tits!

What about the Smithsonian Institute? I suppose their publication is like HIGHLIGHTS with GOOFUS and GALLANT theories of evolution and connect-the-dots pictures of dinosaur nipples.

MENSA? A bunch of sex-crazed juvenile zit-poppers playing with colorful slide ruler toys (and themselves).

And EVERGREEN MAGAZINE was just a load of latent homosexual gibberish written by illiterate wanna-bees.

NEW YORK TIMES? Feh – their reporters are amateurish fabricators of fairy tales about some kindergarten reality that goes on outside of SL, so they don’t even count.

SHAKESPEARE? An immature plagiarist who stole all of Prok’s writings and ran them through a Google Translator several times. Didn’t even bother to change the names.

THE SISTINE CHAPEL? Michelangelo is a retarded little nose-picker who wouldn’t know what a penis looked like if one was slapping him in the face! Artsy wallpaper is sooo 1950s.

The GREAT PYRAMIDS? A soft construction with Boiled Beans, Lincoln Logs and Mucilage compared to Prok’s Mashed Potato Surprise!

JENNIFER LOVE HEWITT? Ever seen Prok nekkies? Hommina hommina hommina! Growf! Hu-hu-grrr-stompa, stompa! ’nuff said!

We, dear friends, are in the presence of undeniable greatness, but we’re all stupid little snot-eating, juice box drinking short bussers without the basic default cranial capacity to appreciate it. I, personally, am ashamed of ourselves.
dandellion Kimban

Jul 22nd, 2007

“You are right that it sounds weird when people seem to approve minors having same-sex relationships with each others and/or with adults”

I don’t think that it is the same case when teens have sex with each other and with adults! It is not and/or. And yes, it is even worse if an adult is a priest. Priests/ess have significant role in every society, abusing their social position is less tolerable than it is the case with other adults. Just the same as police officers should be punished heavilly for breaking the law.

“the Catholic church seems to have a strong opinion against homosexuality. It’s a straight way to go to Hell.”

LMAOL
Lisae Boucher

Jul 22nd, 2007

Quote: I don’t think that it is the same case when teens have sex with each other and with adults!

But where do you draw the line? Just ignoring gender and sexual preference, would you approve sexual relations between:
1) Two 10 year olds
2) Two 12 year olds
3) Two 14 year olds
4) Two 16 year olds
Now, you will probably have selected a minimum age from the list above. And I do mean a full sexual relation for this discussion. The kind that can make people pregnant.
Now, with that age in mind, how much older can their sex-partner be? 2 years? 4, years? 6 years? 8 years? 10 years? More?
Then how about adults? For example, a woman age 26 marrying a guy age 89? Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall happened to be such a couple. An extreme age difference but in this case many people felt that Howard was the one who was abused. But what if she had been 10 years younger? Or 12 years younger?

How about Bill Wyman? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Wyman if you’ve never heard of the stones. My father happens to be a huge fan. But this guy at age 47 married Mandy Smith when she was 19, after a relationship of 6 years. But from a previous marriage, Bill already had an adult son who at age 30 married the mother of Mandy. Her mother was 46 at that moment. Weird family relations there…
Prokofy Neva

Jul 22nd, 2007

>Prok makes the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC sound like THE WEEKLY READER with saggy tits!

Right. Good call. NatGeo is not an expert on human sexuality, known for its study of psychology or culture. It’s a travel magazine with a scientific bent that has pictures of native women with bare breasts. Quoting a story from this magazine in 2004 shows how the author is merely google-researching and really, really reaching to show “experts”. Anyone with sense, intelligence, and education can see this.

nd yes, it is even worse if an adult is a priest. Priests/ess have significant role in every society, abusing their social position is less tolerable than it is the case with other adults. Just the same as police officers should be punished heavilly for breaking the law.

The law created by adults and experts by democratically-elected experts mercifully disagrees. The law is the law. You don’t get worse punishment because you are a priest who vowed celibacy. You don’t get punished worse because you are a police officer. You are punished if the *deed* is wrong, regardless.

Thank God people like you in Second Life aren’t in charge of justice.

Or of Herald coverage.

Oops…
Cocoanut Koala

Jul 22nd, 2007

Well, Lisae, I wasn’t talking about being aroused by one’s OWN nudity. Clearly, the people watching the pole-dancing might be expected to be more aroused than the one on the pole, though I certainly wouldn’t discount that possibility, either.

—–

QUOTE: (my quote) It is not a perversion, or even “special conditions,” to respond to visual cues under such circumstances.

(Lisae’s quote)Depends on how it happens. I’ve seen guys at the nudist beach who suddenly had to excuse themselves and covered up with a towel for a few moments of discomfort. That just happens and often lasts a short moments. But in general when such a thing happens, it is frowned upon. And in some nudist areas people will be removed from the area if they don’t get their penis under control.

Well – I don’t think I would necessarily call THAT a perversion, either, as much as I would call it sudden lack of control. The younger the man, the less control they have over this, and I don’t think it is a perversion at all (even though it is inappropriate at the nudist area), but a natural part of biology.

—–

QUOTE: Yeah, those are the most discomforting moments. Because of some medical problems I’ve had to spend way too much time in the chairs of gynecologists already. For some reason, having someone feel around your most private organs tends to be upsetting sometimes. For some, it’s actually some kind of fetish and rumor has it that there are women who can’t help it but just get an orgasm every time they have a visit of the gynecologist. It is just one of those situations when things are a bit hard to control. It is not something I would like to discuss further anyways. I’m just glad that I do have enough self-control at those moments.

Well, again, I was thinking more of the gynecologist him/herself being appropriately unaroused at the mere sight of nudity, rather than someone becoming aroused simply by exposing their own nudity.

—–

QUOTE: Wel, I just wonder about how appropriate it would be to be aroused (for more than a few moments) when they are in a bus, at their office, buying groceries, while serving dinner in a restaurant or maybe even teaching in front of a class. What would you think of someone who suddenly gets sexually aroused in front of a school class with young children? I think I feel the same about people who get aroused in a nudist area. It’s definitely inappropriate.

We are in agreement there; it is socially inappropriate to become aroused at a nude beach or other similar places. With enough exposure to nude areas, it becomes easier to detach sexual significance from the nudity.

—–

QUOTE: (my quote)People are aroused oby the bodies of the others; those are visual cues it is natural to respond to.

(your quote) But what does cause this trigger? It seems to me people can just as easily become aroused at regular beaches. Actually, I think people are more likely to get aroused in textile areas but I can only judge that from the amount of times guys try to seduce me or any others. Sometimes, when I’m in the textile areas I see guys look at me as if they’re undressing me with their eyes. That’s one thing I don’t have to think about in the nudist areas…

Well they CAN become aroused at regular beaches. But they can become more aroused when confronted with more nudity than they are used to coping with.

The nudist beaches I have been at, though (very few, long ago, and I kept on my suit!), I saw plenty of guys with plenty of very interested eyeballs, so I don’t think those are immune.

I think guys would be less likely to come on to you at a nudist beach, though, because there is that stigma against sexual behavior there, where there is not at a clothed beach.

—–

QUOTE: Well, personally? I’ve known my girlfriend for a few years before we started doing something sexual. It wasn’t love at first sight for me. I knew her preferences and I have to admit that she’s good looking so yeah, that helped a bit. But it’s her character that I’ve fallen in love with. It is a bit different for her, though. She has had several lovers before me but she mostly judges them on stamina, not looks. I happen to have good stamina.

I agree, the “looks” aren’t the hook at all, for most women, anyway. I meant, once you are in love with someone (for their character, etc.), then becoming aroused by their bodies – nude – including the sight of them – is natural, for most everyone. (And many people of course, don’t need to be in love, either, to be aroused by the body.)

—–

QUOTE: (My quote) No, I think people learn as a child (ideally) that clothes are good and nudity is good, in the proper circumstances.

(your quote)I can’t speak for others but for me that’s true. My parents made it clear to me when to wear clothes and when I’m allowed to go naked. As a child, it was okay to be naked all day inside the house and topless in the garden. (Except for my fathers office but I wasn’t allowed access to that place anyways.) However, I also had to put my clothes back on when there would be visitors or when I’d go outside. It’s all just a matter of proper education. But my parents never told me that nudity was bad. They just made it clear that some people would take offense and that it’s bad to offend people. Which is a major difference. I like to be nude. I don’t like to offend people. So clothes tend to be a requirement. But if it was up to me, this whole world would be clothing optional and no one would be offended if someone else was naked. Nor would anyone be offended if someone was dressed.

Well, I think that’s normal. That was how I was raised, and my children raised the same way. The difference between you and me was after a certain age, we also stopped having male/female casual nudity. (By which I mean, it wasn’t the end of the world if you saw one another, but it was understood you would be not be nude as an around-the-house sort of thing.)

I have friends, though, who were brought up in homes where nothing was thought of it at all – family nudity was just a natural thing.

Right now, there are vastly more people who would take offense at public nudity among strangers in the U.S. than not; me among them. But all these mores change over time, obviously. Those who feel like I do don’t feel that nudity is bad; it’s just we have different ideas of where it is and isn’t appropriate.

—–

QUOTE: Here’s something missing at a nudist area. There isn’t much that can be revealed anymore.

Quite so! hehe

—–

QUOTE: Well, that would be mostly primitive cultures in most of the tropical areas. Although in many areas the men tend to wear penis sheaths but I think that’s more as protection than from modesty. The view on nudity has changed a lot during the centuries. But I’ve mentioned Barcelona already in one of my previous comments somewhere. Large city in Spain located to the Mediterranean sea and with really great weather. And for whatever reason it’s also a clothing-optional city where people are allowed to walk naked. Police can still ask you to put your clothes back on and they don’t give much attention to this either. But it is legal to be naked in Barcelona in all public places. It’s just that because people now have a choice, they tend to do what feels more comfortable. Which means that you won’t see that much nudity except near the busier beach areas.

I’m thinking that even in the primitive cultures, there are THINGS – little tiny skirts in the g-string area, special jewelry, etc. – that people wear to be considered dressed, for the most part. (Think of Snoopy being naked without his collar.)

There may be some cultures where all adults are always naked, even of adornments, but there, there would surely be strict prohibitions about what could be done – activities – in what areas (similar to the prohibitions in nudist resorts). I’m just going by those cultures I have seen.

It would be interesting to have an eye into history, to determine at what point people actually started feeling they had to be dressed, but I’m afraid that was so long ago no one will ever really know the answers. I need to look it up and see what is known, or believed.

—–

QUOTE: Imagine: You are at a nudist beach and your body starts producing arousal chemicals. How long would your body be able to do this? How will the body responds when you still have had no sex after half a dozen dozes of this arousal potion?
People who are new to nudist areas will spend some time being aroused but after a while that will go away for everyone, I think. (Unless people are having sex at nudist areas which I consider highly inappropriate.)

Regarding arousal, chemicals, and all that – we are, at base, animals at the mercy of or biological composition and purposes. So I don’t think guilt is appropriate for acting and reacting naturally. In the nudist areas (and practically any other social place), one would of course be expected to excuse oneself should one start unvoluntarily emitting chemicals and exhibiting other signs of arousal, lol.

—–

QUOTE: No, I know non-nudists who happen to be very enlightened in the area of sexuality. It’s just that some people here are playing around with my words. I do think some of the people who did respond need some more enlightenment though, although you seem to know things quite well already. I also think there’s a huge cultural difference between me and some of the others here. Maybe it has something to do with education and how people in the Netherlands educate teens about sexuality. This compared to the USA where the President seems to think the best way to teach teens about sexuality is by teaching them abstinence.
When I was 12, my school handed out condoms to students. Just one per student so they all know what they look like. I kept mine until I was 13, then filled it with water to throw at some friends. It could hold a lot but I never managed to even lift it and while trying, it did what people fear the most out of condoms. It broke… So afterwards I decided to get some dry clothes and realized why balloons are much better for this. Never used a condom myself, though. As a lesbian, I don’t really need one anyway and they’re not very useful as water balloons.

You are from the Netherlands? When I was talking about “people I have known,” I was particularly remembering this one girl in my dorm at college, tall, blonde, beautiful, who was from the Netherlands and thought it was pretty silly having to wear her towel down the hall. We all talked to her quite a bit about it, and that’s when I learned about how this is quite natural in other cultures.

I wouldn’t blame President Bush for just EVERYTHING, though. Sex education is quite the hotbed of controversy in this country, and would be whether or not he’d ever been born.

The two cultures – where you are from, and where I am from – are quite different.

My experience is that for most people, it is difficult to trade one in for another – just not natural, as it were. My family, for instance, would never be able to get into a communal bath together, or want to, in the slightest, even if we were in Japan. But I don’t see that as a bad or a good thing; it’s just our culture.

—–

QUOTE: Oh, I like good visuals… for me it’s just not enough to be aroused. I need more than just visuals.

Not enough for me either. I’m just saying that nudity is a valid part of eroticism.

—–

QUOTE: I also have to admit that I care more about my looks when I’m at the textile beach than at the nudist beach. Visiting the textile beach means I’ll wax my legs, shave off my pubic hair and armpits . . .

Ain’t it the truth!

One quibble: Why don’t you just call it the “clothed area,” rather than the “textile area”?

coco
dandellion Kimban

Jul 22nd, 2007

@Lisae: Having to choose between all those minors…. well, you will agree that that question is not the question of law and jurisdiction. No civilised country would take kids to the caurt for being intimate, not even for having sex. It is us adults who have to decide if their behavious is ok. And, by doing that, we actually decide how good parents are we. Have we done our parenting job well? Have we teached our kids all the things they should know so we can leave them to play without us watching over their heads? And in which age? Were our doughters surprised when got their first periods? Are our sons aware that they can make a mess since a certain points of their lives? Or we skipped the part of edication that makes us blush and left them to learn about pregnancy the hard and dangerous way? Setting the minimum age is nothing but giving ourseves a mark about raising our kids. There is nothing wrong in two kids aged 6 that plays mammy and daddy. But it can be wrong if their parents are missed to teach them what means to be mammy and daddy.
About a woman age 26 marrying a guy age 89… she is adult, right. So is he. Their relationship is nobody’s business but theirs.
Yes, I have heard of th Rolling Stones, though never been a fan. Missed the episode with 13 y. o girl. That one is problematic, yes. From my point of view, he is sick. Girl too, but she is minor at the point so we cannot blame her. Her mother is sick too, and she is the one to blame the most BUT! who am I, or you, to tell anybody what to allow or not to allow to own child? I am aware that this is problematic, but where to put the line?

@Prok: You are right saying that the law is the law. But for each crime there is a minimum and maximum penalty. That is because different acts happens in different circumstances. And those circumstances makes judge decide about penalty between max and min. Otherwise we wouldn’t need judges, one script would be enough to handle all the cases. And I am sure that in cases of priestes, policeman and some other professions that plays significant role in determining the penalty.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 23rd, 2007

Quote: Quoting a story from this magazine in 2004 shows how the author is merely google-researching

Actually, I happen to have a subscription on that magazine. And what I just did was check if it was still available on the Internet. As you noticed, it still is. So yeah, I googled for some article that I’ve read in a magazine.

Quote: Well, Lisae, I wasn’t talking about being aroused by one’s OWN nudity.

I personally mean both. Not just being naked but also looking at nudity in a nudity environment. Arousal is okay in the proper context in my opinion. Just like anything else needs to be put in a proper context. There are actually a few nudist areas where people are allowed to be aroused all the time. Jamaica has some places like and the practice is called hedonism. It’s only practiced in adult-only areas and even nudists get proper warnings that there’s more going on than just nudity. It does seem to be interesting to visit such a place once or twice and if I do visit a hedonism area, it will be because I want to be aroused. But in regular nudism areas I’m just me.

Quote: The younger the man, the less control they have over this, and I don’t think it is a perversion at all (even though it is inappropriate at the nudist area), but a natural part of biology.

Well, I do realize that men don’t always have control over their own penis. I’ve seen it happen often enough and I know it is a great discomfort for them because their penis seems to betray what they have been thinking about. I still remember one incident from my own youth when I was sitting on my fathers lap when my mother walked by and he immediately dumped me off his lap and picked up a blanket. Yeah, I know what he was thinking when he saw my mom at that moment. A couple of moments later everything was back to normal and I could just continue coloring in the coloring book I had back then.
My dad called it a sudden cramp, btw. Yeah, right. My mom gives him cramps.

Quote: I was thinking more of the gynecologist him/herself being appropriately unaroused

Lol. I realize that but lying there with your legs up when someone plays around with your genitals… Well, there are women who don’t have much control at such moments. It is so extremely inappropriate to have an orgasm at such a moment but the reality is that it does happen sometimes. Has it ever happened to me?
No comments…

Quote: I saw plenty of guys with plenty of very interested eyeballs, so I don’t think those are immune.

Yeah, that tends to be more likely in clothing-optional areas than complete nudist areas. Or in places where there are a lot of newbies at the same moment. It can also happen to nudists who haven’t practiced nudism for a few years. People have to desensitize their eyes again.

Quote: I think guys would be less likely to come on to you at a nudist beach, though, because there is that stigma against sexual behavior there, where there is not at a clothed beach.

Again, that depends a bit on the area where you’re visiting. Family resorts tend to be real strict. Clothing-optional places are more similar to textile areas. But I still think people go to textile areas to be seen and to look pretty while people go to the nude areas just to enjoy themselves with total freedom.
Another cause could be that many teen nudists realize that they’re having problems with their hormones acting up. Yeah, the puberty problem. Teens can also have a few textile friends who would not even dare to visit the nudist areas to begin with. It is weird but if you look at the numbers, the number of teens in nudist areas tend to be lower than textile areas. Many teens seem to prefer some other location only to return again as young adults.

Quote: Right now, there are vastly more people who would take offense at public nudity among strangers in the U.S. than not; me among them.

It tends to be different in the Netherlands and other European countries except for the UK. In Barcelona, Spain, nudity in public places is legal although people can ask you to put some clothes on again. In the Netherlands it is not uncommon for people to change from clothes to bathing suit without using a towel to cover up the short moment of nudity. Things like breastfeeding in public doesn’t upset many people either but then again, that doesn’t happen that often anyways. And I think the punishment in the Netherlands is a fine of €50 and a request to not do it again. And again. And again. But it’s more likely you just get a warning.

Quote: There may be some cultures where all adults are always naked

I think there are a few. Don’t know how well they are organized, though. I do believe their behavior is just natural just like for all other people, which means that when they want to mate, they’ll just search for some quiet area where others won’t disturb them. It seems that the natural behavior for people who want to have sex is to find a spot away from all others.

Quote: It would be interesting to have an eye into history, to determine at what point people actually started feeling they had to be dressed, but I’m afraid that was so long ago no one will ever really know the answers.

Rumor has it that it was all triggered by the Victorian age. As I understood it, during the dark ages even something like marriage was quite uncommon and more like a privilege for those who had the money to pay for a wedding with priest. For the lower-class no one really cared who was married to whom since these people had no influence, no power, nothing. The only difference between them and slaves was that slaves had a master who would feed them.
But I never fully researched it myself either.

Quote: In the nudist areas (and practically any other social place), one would of course be expected to excuse oneself should one start unvoluntarily emitting chemicals and exhibiting other signs of arousal, lol.

Yep, especially the guys. As a woman it’s much easier to hide any arousal. Just call it a bit chilly when two little points start to become slightly larger and well… Not much else that we have to do. Guys however will point themselves out easily when aroused. Nothing that a well-placed towel can cover up again. Plus some complaints about cramps.

Quote: We all talked to her quite a bit about it, and that’s when I learned about how this is quite natural in other cultures.

Well, maybe interesting to know that I share a small house with several other female students. We’ve declared it as female-only territory and visits from guys first need to be announced. As a result, everyone can just make themselves feel as comfortable as they like, which does mean that we all tend to walk naked to and from the bathroom before and after a shower. Nudity in the house is no issue. Still, we do tend to cover up in general, wearing warm bathrobes when it’s chilly or kimono-like things during warmer weather. But that’s more from a hygienic perspective than modesty. When you’re naked and you press your ass against a leather couch, you don’t want to leave any traces behind…
Which is why nudist always tend to have a towel close by.

Quote: The two cultures – where you are from, and where I am from – are quite different.

Which makes it for a company like Linden Labs quite difficult to determine what they can and cannot allow. Especially since Second Life is quite popular in Europe too.

Quote: My experience is that for most people, it is difficult to trade one in for another

I agree with that. Being raised as a nudist since the day I was born it’s a bit difficult for me to understand why people are so obsessed by clothes. In my opinion, clothes just keep you warm and make sure you don’t leave track marks after sitting somewhere for a while…

Quote: One quibble: Why don’t you just call it the “clothed area,” rather than the “textile area”?

In general, I used both. But in the Dutch language it’s often referred to as the textile area or the common area. The Dutch word for clothing is “kleren” which sounds a bit like a dutch swearword “Klere”. Klere is an Dutch bastardization of the word for Kolere, but nowadays people use the English spelling (cholera) in the Netherlands. Well, can’t help it but in the Netherlands we tend to use diseases when we swear. We just wish the other to get some nasty disease like cancer, the plague, pox or cholera. So when we talk about a clothing area, it doesn’t always sound like a nice place. So textile areas are nicer.

Quote: No civilised country would take kids to the caurt for being intimate, not even for having sex.

In the Netherlands anyone under the age of 12 cannot even be held legally responsible for his actions. I think other countries have similar laws. There were some upset people in the Netherlands about a month or so ago when it was discovered that two or three toddlers ages around 5 or 6 has sexually abused a few other toddlers. As it turned out, they’re still investigating how many of the toddlers were “perverts” who abused the others. And they’re still investigating the case too since the only witnesses of these crimes are the children themselves. Rumor has it that it all started with one boy pulling the pants down of some girl. Later stories talk about sticks and paper being stuck into vagina’s and anuses and whatever more but no one knows what the truth is and where these children start to make up their own stories since it seems to give them a lot of attention.
More common are cases of boys ages 8 to 14 who decide it’s fun to touch girls in very inappropriate ways. However, when they report about such stories in the newspapers they often don’t mention what they did exactly.
A hot news items seems to be something that happened in Texas, though. “A teacher has accused a 4 year old boy of improper touching and sexual harassment.” The boy just wanted to give a hug, the teacher calls it sexual harassment.
What are people thinking nowadays?…

Quote: Yes, I have heard of th Rolling Stones, though never been a fan. Missed the episode with 13 y. o girl.

Well, she’s 37 now, I think. The relationship started in 1983. It did give her a lot of fame and she’s known for her singing talents nowadays. She’s also a former model and wants to become an actress now. She doesn’t appear to have suffered much from this all, though. Although like many other famous people, she tends to be unlucky in love…
If I have to chose between love and fame and wealth, I would chose for love myself. It’s the one thing you cannot buy anyways.
Still, a general idea is that girls are sexually adults when they start menstruating. In some cultures that indicates the moment that a girl is ready to be married and in those cultures it’s not uncommon to have a future husband ready and waiting for that exact moment to happen. You might consider that sick but it is just a cultural thing. Which one is better? I don’t dare to answer that but I prefer our European ideology on this.
DaveOner

Jul 23rd, 2007

I never thought I’d say it but I have to agree with most of what Prok said in her first comment. I can’t vouch for the rest of her comments, though.

Why do people feel the need to come up with statistics and deep sociological/scientific reasons to make what they like to do okay? Why can’t you just feel comfortable NOT wearing clothes and are comfortable around others that feel the same? The question of sexuality need not even be addressed. Maybe it’s out of some sort of guilt?

While I am all for Lisae’s freedom to express herself in SL in the manner deemed appropriate by LL (since this is LL’s world, you’re just living in it) I am not for justifying what floats your boat with a quase history/sociology lesson which ends up being somewhat derogatory towards Americans. How can we be prudish?? We invented Rock, hip hop and Woodstock!!

The fact of the matter is you’re trying to justify having pictures of nudists like the one shown above. That’s fine if you roll like that, but I don’t get it. If your facts and figures are correct then it shouldn’t be any different than the rest of us having pictures of people wearing jeans and shirts…and yet the only time you see that in most peoples’ homes is when it’s pictures of people they actually know!

You have to admit that it’s a very reasonable conclusion to come to for most people that having naked, non-artistic photos of nude people (in this case it looks like teenagers) is a matter of arousal…regardless of what you actually do with them.
Flack Quartermass

Jul 23rd, 2007

Choice phrases from Lisae Boucher really helped highlight things for me (emphasis mine):

—————————————————-

“..suddenly had to EXCUSE THEMSELVES and COVERED UP with a towel for a few moments of DISCOMFORT.”

“..it is FROWNED UPON.”

“..people will be REMOVED from the area if they don’t get their penis under CONTROL.”

“..those are the most DISCOMFORTING moments.”

“..there are women who CAN’T HELP IT..”

“..one of those situations when things are a bit HARD TO CONTROL.”

“..I do have enough SELF-CONTROL at those moments.”

“I just wonder about how APPROPRIATE it would be to be aroused (for more than a few moments)..”

“It’s definitely INAPPROPRIATE.”

“But only in locations where I think it’s APPROPRIATE.”

“But either it is under SPECIAL CONDITIONS like a strip-tent or some porn magazine.”

“..men don’t always have CONTROL over their own penis..”

“I know it is a great DISCOMFORT for them..”

“..their penis seems to BETRAY what they have been thinking about.”

“..there are women who don’t have much CONTROL at such moments.”

“Family resorts tend to be real STRICT.”

“..so EXTREMELY INAPPROPRIATE to have an orgasm at such a moment..”

“People have to DESENSITIZE their eyes again..”

“..many teen nudists realize that they’re having PROBLEMS with their hormones ACTING UP.”

“As a woman it’s much easier to HIDE any arousal.”

—————————————————-

I respect and defend your right to live your life how you choose, nude or otherwise, as long as others aren’t harmed, and vice versa.

But I’m seeing a trend in your comments, and as much as you may think that non-nudist arousal from nudity is a trained condition (which I *partly* agree with), I’d like you to consider that perhaps you’ve been conditioned (you mentioned family-life briefly) to not find nudity as arousing as others might, and to find arousal to be inappropriate in most places.

You mentioned people needing to become desensitized when returning to nudist areas. Is that not a kind of (self) conditioning?

It’s as if someone is trading one set of conditioned behaviors for another, both seemingly opposing nature at some level (the human body=natural, arousal and sexual desire=natural).

I’d like to add that personally and subjectively it sure seems a lot easier for me to throw some clothes on than try to force myself not to get an erection, which still happens (even at INAPPROPRIATE times) at my ripe old age of 30, thank Darwin.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 24th, 2007

Quote: You mentioned people needing to become desensitized when returning to nudist areas. Is that not a kind of (self) conditioning?

I also mentioned that this happens to people who haven’t practiced nudism for a while. Because they get conditioned to wearing clothes all the time. And it doesn’t happen to all but it’s just the excitement of being able to bare it all again. Just compare it to a guy who has been locked up in prison for 5 years and then gets free again. Because that’s basically what nudism is about: freedom of choice.

Then again, I think nudism is best practiced in clothing-optional areas so people also have the freedom to wear clothes. Unfortunately, those areas are slightly more sexual than nudist areas and textile areas. That’s because people start to think there are no rules in those locations.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 24th, 2007

Quote: I’d like to add that personally and subjectively it sure seems a lot easier for me to throw some clothes on than try to force myself not to get an erection, which still happens (even at INAPPROPRIATE times) at my ripe old age of 30, thank Darwin.

Well, as I understand it, this can happen to guys everywhere and it seems real uncomfortable to me when you suddenly don’t fit your pants anymore. Although at the textile beach some guys do seem to like to display the size of their equipment through their clothes. Seems to make them feel more secure. Just like there are women out there who feel the need to fill their bra with paper tissues and whatever more to look more impressive.
But at the nudist area you can’t hide the way your body really looks. Big or small, thick or thin, you can’t hide it anymore. Yet people will accept you the way you are. And reality? Yeah, guys do get the occasional arousal moments which become visible for others. But they do have the decency to cover it up again instead of parading around.

Quote: Why do people feel the need to come up with statistics and deep sociological/scientific reasons to make what they like to do okay?

Because otherwise people can just say that nudism is only practiced by a small cult of ugly people. Now they have to prove such claims with facts.

Quote: The fact of the matter is you’re trying to justify having pictures of nudists like the one shown above.

Well, the image inside the second picture has only been used to create that screenshot. It’s meant to show how Second Life can reflect to Real Life. It’s there to support the story. Because the story is comparing real life with Second Life.
Anonymous

Jul 24th, 2007

WTF are we talking about here?

If you’re enjoying being nude, go ahead, have a blast at the nude beach, or at home, or wherever you want where it’s not frowned upon.

If you don’t enjoy being nude, then DONT go to the nudist beaches etc.

Bickering about it is completely ppointless. A waste of time, and bytes.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 24th, 2007

Quote: WTF are we talking about here?

Well, what I just wondered about was if it would be appropriate to have nudist areas within Second Life. In reality there are many Family nudist areas which you could consider to be PG. In SL it would be too troublesome to have similar nudist areas in the PG areas because people will abuse too easily in such areas. You would need a lot of moderating and very strict rules and even that would not stop people from being abusive.

In the mature grid, opening a nudist area will just be sexual to some visitors and it could well happen that some avatars start having to have sex in view of all others. That has nothing to do with nudism yet since the area is mature, it’s not against the rules as set by LL. So you would still need a moderator to kick out offenders.

So it’s not easy to set up a normal nudist area within Second Life. It helps if you reserve some area for sex which will encourage those who want to have sex to go to that area instead. But it will differ from nudism in real life.

It’s how nudism in SL reflects on RL nudism…
Coincidental Avatar

Jul 24th, 2007

About this nudism thingie, which is rather artificial and became possible in urban culture. I assume that it means that people of both sexes gather to a public place to be naked. It is not a cult because nudists do not form a community. It is not required that they know each others.

I didn’t read all comments but did anybody mention those places in which people are naked but segregated by their sex?

In principle clothing is optional here everywhere where there are no other people. On their own land in the country side or slightly out of town center people traditionally have done what they have wanted. It is mostly the problem of the passerby what he sees.

In practice that means that the landowner is swimming naked and the people passing by should watch some other direction. I remember that there was a policeman doing that and his neighbors complained about it. Good that the policeman didn’t sue them for the invasion of his privacy.

On the nude beaches there are no guards because they are not needed. The sex thing happens occasionally but behind the dunes or bushes. That applies to non-nude beaches too, I have been told. For comparison, I have been told that sexual acts occur in the church yard too when the bars close.

What comes to the religion in Europe and in the USA, the best explaining factor on the difference is the privatization and commercialization of the religion in the USA, not the archaic heritage. Generally, Europeans know much more about the religion than Americans and thus are more inclined to ignore it. I’ve been shocked by those “Marrage” Certificates sold by a SL reverend. I wonder how many were sold.

Being aroused by nudity? The sensitivity to sexual impulses varies between individuals. Those who are easily aroused by nudity avoid it, of course.
DaveOner

Jul 24th, 2007

I just still wonder what purpose having pictures of complete strangers that are naked serves. Is it part of some “nudist awareness” program? Are you just into looking at naked strangers? I’m really curious to know!

And what if bro got aroused by some girl at the nudist colony and started liking her? Is that innappropriate? Does he dress her with his eyes?? How is something like that handled?

There’s a lot of repression of natural instincts going on with nudism from the looks of it…too many conditions and special rules to keep everyone feeling “comfortable”. I’m all for being comfortable with your own body (my g/f and I sit around the house mostly naked when it’s hot out…and it’s not always in a sexual way. It’s too hot out!) but not at the expense of my own freedom to find a naked chick arousing!

I think there is something else going on under the cover of nudism here (how ironic is that!?!). I really don’t want to find out, though. That’s a job for a counselor…
Lisae Boucher

Jul 24th, 2007

Quote: I assume that it means that people of both sexes gather to a public place to be naked.

Nowadays, yes.
In the past? No. There were times when men and women would be separated from each other. Also, the first nudist areas were based on some religion-based rules so if you were an atheist, you’d have no access. It was more about a healthy lifestyle than freedom when the first nudist camps were created. But what made the biggest change where the 60ths. People started to disobey certain laws that they disagrees with. People demanded the right to smoke certain stuff, have free love without marriage, burned their bra’s and best of all, went naked whenever they wanted to. They were referred to as hippies and their impact on the Western world was huge. But in the USA they were less effective because of their protests against the Vietnam war. That was considered unpatriotic and did alienate the generic public. In Europe people were less involved by those internal US troubles so the Hippies had more effects here.

Quote: On the nude beaches there are no guards because they are not needed.

Actually, that’s partially true. The guards just don’t wear uniforms. Well, it’s just that some people in nudist areas will be very protective about the area and thus take actions when something inappropriate happens. People tend to behave more social, especially in the more family-oriented areas.

Quote: The sex thing happens occasionally but behind the dunes or bushes.

That’s also partially true. It depends on the area and the number of people visiting it at that moment. It will occur in the clothing-optional areas but it’s not comfortable since they put thorny bushes between the regular ones. So if you see someone with several small wounds then you know what he has just done. If it’s quiet then you’re also more likely to encounter mating couples, although in the Netherlands you also have a huge risk of seeing two or more guys having sex. There’s also a suggestion explaining why so many gay men have sex in such open places. Many of them might have girlfriends or wifes and are just cheating on their partner with another guy. They can’t do it at home, nor at work so they just say they’re going out with some friends and well…
Which is one reason why people have sex in the open air. They can’t have it at home or else their partner will know about this.
Mike

Jul 25th, 2007

Well, I think Westra is wrong. First, the association of visible sexual characteristics with sex isn’t accidental, it’s deep rooted in our biology; removing these signals from daily interactions is a good thing. Even if nudity weren’t associated with sex, I’d like people to cover up because the majority of bodies simply aren’t very pretty to look at.

In SL, the second reason goes away, but the first one still remains. Overall, I think that means that nudity is fine in more places in SL than RL, but there should still be some restraint.
Anonymous

Jul 25th, 2007

“Well, that would be mostly primitive cultures in most of the tropical areas. Although in many areas the men tend to wear penis sheaths but I think that’s more as protection than from modesty.”

Clothing in “primitive cultures” has been reduced to a minimum out of practical necessity, but they often retain the taboos associated with it. Some tribes have reduced clothing to a little string around the waist, but being seen in public without that is considered as outrageous and immodest as strolling down 5th Avenue in the nude.
Lisae Boucher

Jul 25th, 2007

Mike, those signals that you receive and make you want to have sex doesn’t come from seeing genitals. It comes from seeing a person from the gender that you’re mostly attracted to. Which in some cultures, women are not allowed to reveal anything of their body including their body shape. They have to wear these long, all-covering Burqa’s or else men would go nuts from seeing even the smallest part of women.

Crazy? In our Western culture it is. Here we’re not afraid of seeing even some nude female skins. But go visit Iran and you’ll notice a huge difference in culture. There anything female is already considered sexual, which is against the Qu’ran or whatever and thus women have to keep their bodies covered at all times.

About clothing in primitive cultures. As I understand it, women don’t generally cover up their genital areas although they might have a piece of string around their bellies so they can hang some things on it. Many children will likely walk naked most of their lives in those cultures until they’re becoming adults. Again, according to their culture. In those tropical cultures wearing clothes tends to be a big problem since they don’t wash their clothes very often. Thus something simple as underwear becomes a source of skin infections. A penis sheath is therefore easier to protect something vulnerable. So such decorations might be just something simple as displaying their adulthood. Without it, they might become children again in their own eyes. It’s a cultural thing.

Makes me wonder if people would consider me naked if I walked around with a piece of string around my belly. Oh, well. I’ll be honest. I have my bellybutton pierced and I feel more naked without that small piece of jewelry my girlfriend gave me than whenever I would take all my clothes off, shave off all my hairs including on my head and just wear that silver piece there. Call it a security blanket or whatever. I think most people have such a thing.