The Alphaville Herald

56 Responses to “Stroker’s Bed Heads to Court”

1. 

   Tenshi Vielle
   

   Jul 3rd, 2007
   

   Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww… I’ll go back under my rock now. This is too rough for my skin.
2. 

   Alyx Stoklitsky
   

   Jul 3rd, 2007
   

   1. Who the fuck pays 45USD for some shitty animation to cyber with?

   2. This article is shitty. What exactly has Alderman done? Has he copybotted the bed? Or has he simply built and scripted a bed that offers the same for less cash?

   If it’s the the latter, then BOOHOO Mr. Serpentine. It’s called COMPETITION. Get with it.
3. 

   Pirate Cotton
   

   Jul 3rd, 2007
   

   Perhaps if they were more proactive in responding to these problems they wouldn’t face legal problems? Their response to these sorts of issues has been woeful in the past, I hope the threat of lawyers causes them to treat SL more seriously. That SL is Serious Business is something LL have been pushing for a long time. Now it looks like chicken roosting season has begun.
4. 

   Jessica Holyoke
   

   Jul 4th, 2007
   

   And so it begins…

   What is being alleged is that Catteno both copied the functioning of the bed, the copyright part, and sold the beds as SexGen beds, the trademark part. Catteno is not competing under either allegation, he’s stealing from Eros/Serpentine/Alderman.

   Based on what has been written in the Herald, why Catteno believes that no one will be able to track him down is not very accurate. The other interesting thing is that by declaring that he did not register his real name with the Lindens, he seems to be acting with a guilty mind, which lends more weight to Stroker’s charges.

   I’m more interested in seeing how quickly the Lindens comply with the court order and if it will open up more resident suits against other residents.
5. 

   Why Bother
   

   Jul 4th, 2007
   

   This has to be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read. This guy is a joke and he makes it funnier by taking himself so seriously.

   45 bucks for something you don’t really “own” nor can you use at all in any useful manner.

   I hope his case gets tossed, then his business crumbles.
6. 

   Sn4X15
   

   Jul 4th, 2007
   

   I hope u got 45 bux
7. 

   Tekki Wikki
   

   Jul 4th, 2007
   

   Apparently more SLH-heads together doesn’t make for better proofing of an article. The legal filing is here: http://secondlife.reuters.com/media/SDOC1202.pdf

   Note to Herald staff: Links are made with “href”, not “hred”.
8. 

   Ian Betteridge
   

   Jul 4th, 2007
   

   It’s a straight copy, using an exploit.
9. 

   Coincidental Avatar
   

   Jul 4th, 2007
   

   “the Amsterdam sim – which recently sold for $50,000 USD”

   I think that this is incorrect: an offer of 50 000 USD was done, but the deal was not closed. The Amsterdam sim was sold later at an unknown price.
   ********************************************************************************
   I wish some moron lawyer tries this: “Stroker Serpentine never had the copyright. LL had it all the time.”
   ********************************************************************************
   “SL begins to resemble real life”

   SL has always been part of RL, even if the sales pitch claimed otherwise.
   ********************************************************************************
   Gwyneth Llewelyn says that just stop talking about the dark side. There is nothing to see:
   http://secondslog.blogspot.com/2007/07/stop-sl-criminalisation.html

   Gwyneth Llewelyn says:
   “Put into another words, … there is no organised frauds and scams ..”

   There are.

   “there are no real money laundering schemes”

   I think that some successful casino owners co-operate with money launders. And money laundering explains nicely the inflated economic numbers. The most natural explanation for the 97% part of economy which doesn’t seem to materialize be closed circuit money laundering.
10. 

    weddy
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    IMO, if it can be proven that it’s a direct copy, then Volkov Catteneo should be stopped. Stroker Serpentine appears to have tried to go through proper channels, only to be blown off. If that’s the case, then good for the lawyers naming LL in the suit. They might take copying more seriously in the future if precedence is set, and the fear of someone lawyer’ing up again. I would think it would be much less expensive to have a better abuse team, than having to hire lawyers to do what should have already been done.
11. 

    Lewis Nerd
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    So… the end of sex stuff in Second Life beings?

    We can but hope.

    Lewis
12. 

    Khamon
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    My understanding Pirate is that LL would’ve made themselves more liable for not protecting the copyright if they’d gotten involved in the dispute. As it is, they’re only a service provider that hasn’t tried to do or enforce anything related to the case.

    In that same vein Weddy, LL’s only citing is to provide real life information about the defendant. They’re not being prosecuted as participants in the scheme and will likely not be held liable for any wrong doing as long as they comply with the court orders.

    Frankly I believe we’ll see more and more of LL backing away from enforcing community standards as a governing body and shoring up their position as a simple Internet hosting firm with a bit of software development on the side. My personal project is convincing them to publish what types of abuse reports they will and won’t act on. We’re told that eighty percent of abuse reports are considered invalid by the governance team. That’s fine really, except that hundreds of people are filing these useless reports every day with no idea that LL will simply file it as non-actionable.

    It seems to me the very least they could do is publish a reasonable list of what they do enforce and tell us that nothing else will be considered. But I’m told *that* would make them liable for defence if a lawsuit pointed out that they admitted to not enforcing given standards of behaviour; so it all has to be very vague. Vive la’Community eh
13. 

    Csven Concord
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    “So… the end of sex stuff in Second Life beings?”

    No, Lewis. A while back I had an idea that I don’t believe has been done yet. I’m not really interested in doing it, but it’s only a matter of time before someone does. And when they do, I’m betting it’ll be very, very popular.
14. 

    Ian Betteridge
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    Khamon says: “My understanding Pirate is that LL would’ve made themselves more liable for not protecting the copyright if they’d gotten involved in the dispute.”

    LL is under no obligation to protect the copyright, but it has to respond to a DMCA takedown request(even if it’s response is “we don’t believe you have a case”).

    But people are getting the wrong end of the stick here. Stroker isn’t suing LL. He’s subpoenaing them in order to get information to pursue a case against a third party. That doesn’t mean LL is a party to the case, and it may simply choose to hand over the necessary records without any kind of resistance.
15. 

    Luca V
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    THE BED POLICE NEED TO ARREST THIS MAN!
16. 

    Anon
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    “A while back I had an idea that I don’t believe has been done yet. I’m not really interested in doing it,”

    Csven you are so full of shit you’ve been pulling that bullshit for years….. we laugh our asses off every time but it’s starting to get annoying … GIVE IT UP YOU GOT NOTHING LOSER
17. 

    Mark
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    “So… the end of sex stuff in Second Life beings?

    We can but hope.

    Lewis”

    For as long as you have that huge stick up your ass, there will be “sex stuff in SL beings”.
18. 

    Csven Concord
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    “Csven you are so full of shit you’ve been pulling that bullshit for years….. we laugh our asses off every time but it’s starting to get annoying … GIVE IT UP YOU GOT NOTHING LOSER”

    Apparently you don’t even believe what you’re saying, if you’re posting anonymously. If you think I’m full of shit, claim that opinion. I won’t be offended.

    For all I know it’s being done and I don’t know about it. It really is a rather simple idea.
19. 

    FlipperPA Peregrine
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    Way to go, Stroker! This isn’t some little game or something, this is Stroker’s full-time business that’s being impacted. Every person has the right to make a living and to protect their intellectual property: anyone saying otherwise, move to China! Stroker is doing exactly what he should do.

    The thief’s arrogance is what is most unsettling: “I didn’t use my name, I don’t have a permanent address.” Let me ask him this: did you have an IP address when you connected to Second Life? Did you have an ISP when you connected to Second Life? It might take another subpoena, but if so, your real life info will be available soon enough. Also, on a personal note: your lack of morals and backbone will soon be on display for everyone to see, and tied to your RL identity. This isn’t some lawyer who “popped up” – he and his firm have been involved in Second Life for close to three years now, doing every thing from helping residents incorporate, negotiating software sales / deals, file patents, and help with the SLCC. He understands the workings of Second Life.
20. 

    RZ
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    “This isn’t some lawyer who “popped up” – he and his firm have been involved in Second Life for close to three years now, doing every thing from helping residents incorporate, negotiating software sales / deals, file patents, and help with the SLCC.”

    I appreciate the point you’re trying to make, but in all honesty, the tasks related to SL that you’ve cited the lawyers being involved in mean precisely nothing in the world of commercial litigation.

    Helping people incorporate, filing patents, etc. is considered monkey work in lawyering circles.
21. 

    Anonymous
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    Wait a minute.

    Isn’t this a simple matter of filing the DMCA with LL, then they make the person remove his stuff?

    That’s the way it’s always worked before.

    SO . . . is this lawsuit now just to retrieve damages, as the stuff is already removed?

    This business about LL refusing to do the DMCA thing doesn’t ring true, considering all the people I know who have filed them and had them acted upon.

    coco
22. 

    FlipperPA Peregrine
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    I’d hardly call patent law “monkey work”, heh – some of the most respected lawyers in the nation specialize in patent law. This guy is also a trial lawyer, not a paper pusher. Here’s a link to his profile that’s popped up around the SLosphere:

    http://www.bipc.com/professionals.php?PeopleID=501

    I’ve worked with him for about 6 years now, and can’t speak highly enough of him; I was, as you saw, just trying to point out that he’s uniquely qualified as a trial attorney, given the work he has done with some of Second Life’s better known companies and residents.

    Regards,

    -Flip
23. 

    Obscure Doodad
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    Folks,

    I hope the fundamental reality of this case is not lost on people. LL will provide RL name and every bit of identity information they have on anyone whatsoever in response to a subpoena. Read that carefully and KNOW what that means when their insane Age Verify finally triggers.

    Come Age Verify, it means You Are Putting Yourself Into A Database Of Pervs Who Requested Access to Adult Content, and do not EVER delude yourself into thinking divorce attorneys will not show up with subpoenas to use against you in any future settlement. Do not think this won’t be used in any background check that might be done on you. LL will not hesitate to offer up your name and destroy your life.

    This is just another step on the road to understand what Age Verify is going to mean if/when LL triggers it. File it away and watch. You either age verify, or you are banned from almost everywhere — because the parcel owners will have to set Adult just to protect themselves from kids seeing something they should not.
24. 

    Buckaroo Mu
    

    Jul 4th, 2007
    

    Obscure, change your name to Obtuse. ANY company is required by law to answer a Subpoena, if properly filed and ordered by a judge. SL, your ISP, your employer, YouTube, Google, anyone. This has nothing to do with Age Verification. Right now, what they’ll do since this idiot is NPIOF is give an IP address – and another subpoena to his ISP will get his name, and then he’s toast. The only thing Age/Identity Verification would change is remove one step.
25. 

    Obscure Doodad
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    Buckaroo, all you said is correct, but it makes my point. Cooperation with eventual age verification has potentially crushing long term ramifications on your life. You WILL be tagged as having explicitly asked to access adult content, and this information CAN and very likely WILL be used in many different ways against you in years to come. I don’t want to divert the thread. It is about copyrights and this case, but the derivative reality of LL complying with subpoena, as they must, points to the enormous danger of signing on to AV, if and when they impose it.
26. 

    janeforyou Barbara
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    To me it seam that its some lawyers wil make a lot of $ on a 45$ case.But i can understand Strokres etemt to stop this copy thing, if he dont win this case tho it wil be a desaster for any creator in SL. The problem for Linden Lab are the TOS tho, can thay rely leagaly say ” you dont own it” ? Copyrights and trademark law are ok RL, but had it realy been tryed out in a court on a creation in a VR?
    If a Web page owner let a users create a item and thay on a paper agees that the web page owner got the user and owner rights for it, then it is ok.But did we agree on that Linden Labs owns all we users create? I never got a goos answer on it other then what Daniel Linden say : ” Do you own the rights to it? I dont know,, you need to claim it as creator, maybe you own it, maybe not”…
27. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    My God, I’d have to worry about Stroker’s case, if he’s using the same lawyer Flipper used to inform him about contract law for SLCC. Yeesh, are they going to wind up with a lot of angry beavers on that one.

    It’s unfortunate that this article got sort of cobbled together quickly merely to be timely in a sort of wiki way that is a good example of why wikis are for shit. People should write articles, put their names on them, and editors should edit and check facts — but hey, it’s commensurate with the pay around here I guess. Yes, links to the complaint would have been nice, and a lot of other things. Like the rest of my interview with Stroker? Like other questions I have?

    Given that Stroker has a very bad track record bullying girls at yardsales for merely *reselling* (not copying, not illegally stealing, but merely *reseling*) his bed, as was amply discussed last year before SLCC, I have to really wonder about the legitimacy of this case. I hope this case really isn’t about first-sale doctrine and Bobbs-Merrill, and really is about *copying*.

    http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2006/07/consider_yourse.html

    I simply refuse to be bullied and intimidated as I was last year when Stroker tried this gambit, and will go on asking very probing questions about what he’s up to here. We have to, because he and his friends like Flipper and the rest of their little cabal think they are setting law to their taste and liking for the entire Metaverse, and we’re supposed to just follow along like sheep.

    The first thing I asked about is whether this guy just had 50 copies from yard sales. I was told no. But I’d like to hear more about this, and observe the object.

    The next thing to get details about is the nature of the exploit. Sure, be coy and not give thieves ideass. But we all know that poseballs are notoriously problematic for needing to be copyable to go into furniture, and that there is always this problem with the copying of stuff related to them once it’s dismantled. Is that the exploit, the poseball issue? Or? Is the alleged thief taking out just those copyable poseballs that in fact weren’t put on copy because they could not be, or the furniture wouldn’t work? (this requires determining whether Stroker uses his own scripts and poseballs or buys the scripts/poseballs from somebody like Craig Altman).

    Next, I’d like to ask why this anonymous plaintiff? Is this the best they could come up with? There’s nobody else copying the SexGen bed in SL? This is it? This guy? Who no one can find? Who is almost guaranteed to be unfindable by Lindens and even RL police with search warrants breaking into ISPs with warrants and all the rest of the shenanigans that all the Internet fanboyz fantasize about? Because the Lindens can just shrug and say, “We have nothing here, IPs are dynamic, we have no name, credit card, nothing, move along.”

    So that leads me to ask: could an anonymous unfindable guy have been chosen so that this allegation about the SexGen bed never really has to be scrutinized, and the chill factor can be put over by the creator fascist lobby to harass and bully people never, ever to sell this object at a yardsale again?

    If Stroker hadn’t bullied and harassed yardsalers last year, I’d be in a much better position to accept his claims now. And he might really have a good claim here. And if his original creative content has been unlawfully copied, then his case is a good one, and he should go for it, and cut through all the bullshit that so many people who create in SL engage in. But…I have questions, and I don’t care about fancy lawyers, and Lindens, and SLCC bully puppits, I think the public has a right to know the facts here.

    Another thing I find sad about this is that it fronts the whole sex “perverts” stuff in the media again. And I simply won’t stand for another round of bullshit about how the Web 1.0 and the early Internet was all about sex too, and that’s just how new technology is, and shut up. No, boys and girls, that was not how it was. The early Internet was about scientists, nerds, the Well, shopping sites — it wasn’t all pornography then…in its later years…and even now. To claim that is just retarded, and people claiming that have very selective, specious memories. I happened to have observed the early years of the Internet and know that even when the porn did come along, it wasn’t the overwhelming thing it is now in SL, where in a 3-D world, streaming, it has more shock value anyway. You don’t haev to be a prude or have no life or be a born again fundamentalist to find this the case. Even people who use SL for sex don’t find it appetizing to have all the furry diaper bukaka shit shoved in their faces 24/7.

    So once again, the media leading up to SLCC will be filled with stories about sex beds and lawsuits. And once again it trivializes Second Life. Sad, but there’s nothing for it.

    Obscure’s point is also exemplary of the feds-under-the-bed mentality we’ll be pumping up with this stuff too, where verification through a third-party service organization will be seen as some kind of publication of your online cybering habits for the government and corporations to plunder and harass you and fire you from your job and obtain you unfavourable divorces. It’s as if there’s no ability to *fight* stuff like that when/if it happens, which of course there is.

    Could Obscure and others who keep making up this fantasy about Linden Lab serving up their personal data and its relationship to sexbeds and adult parcels please illustrate this claim with some bona fide RL cases where divorce lawyers/the government/corporate employers were able to gain the records of Internet porn sites in the same fashion and use that information to deny people their rights?

    There’s another issue to mention in closing: Linden Lab’s liabililty. They provide a set of permissions: no copy, no transfer. What do those permissions mean? Does the granting of them imply secure products and designs? Does the inability to stop exploits yet the presence of a permissions regimen imply negligence? That’s what the other side in this case will be examining.
28. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    >Right now, what they’ll do since this idiot is NPIOF is give an IP address – and another subpoena to his ISP will get his name, and then he’s toast. T

    No, what’s toast is your Internet policing and lawyering. With a dynamic IP address, with the use of Internet cafes or various temp work places or wireless laptops, he’s not toast, he’s a soggy cracker in milk.
29. 

    Coincidental Avatar
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    I think it is just fantasy talk “how easy it is hide your true identity in SL”. There has been the talk about following the IP addresses but wouldn’t following the money be easier?

    About “licensed sex”.

    It is unclear what the lawyer means with “a copy” in the lawsuit. Is it an object which has Stroker Serpentine as a creator or is “a copy” made by Copybot-family? (Note, the original Copybot stopped working “long ago”).

    There are similar allegations on those horse islands about the recent use of Copybot-family.

    Technically the “creations” of SL are as badly protected as any HTML-page.

    Legally other VRs have acceptance procedure for the items to be sold, which reduces the risk of illegal items being sold. But who wants to regulate items sold at pennies.

    In the future it becomes possible to steal items from other SL sibling grids to be sold in other SL grids, because LL won’t be the only service provider.

    According to LL visions, peeps would pay $$$ USD for SW to produce sculpties sold 60 pieces at 10L$. I see some price deflation here. The price of “licensed sex” and other simple mass content too will approach zero. So, this is the last chance to steal, sell and sue, so that it makes economically sense.
30. 

    shockwave yareach
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    If it is an exact copy, then the poses and the scripts will all be identical. If that’s the case then I hope Stroker rips Volkov a new one and uses the old one he gets in court to clean off the poseballs when they get crusty after repeated usage.

    But, I have an issue with someone suing just because “hey! He made a bed too!” Unless he’s infringing on a trademark, he’s just as much right to make and sell his own sexbed as anyone else. Look and feel is not sufficient for a suit, or we’d all be running an Apple OS instead of Windows. (Actually, it would be a Xerox OS, getting right down to brass tacks.) So if it is NOT an exact copy, if Volkov wrote his own, then Stroker’s butt should be the one in the polishing position.

    I think LL should consider creating an IP Conflict board. They can look at the facts, history, code and simularities of two conflicting items and decide if one is a copy or not. If so, the thief, his item and all his inventory get thrown out permanently. This isn’t preventing anyone from going to court, but merely sets up a condition where court isn’t necessary because illegal dupes of an item won’t be allowed to exist in SL in the first place. It also makes clear and harsh penalties against those who would steal others work.
31. 

    Khamon
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    “The problem for Linden Lab are the TOS tho, can thay rely leagaly say ‘you dont own it’ ?” – Barbara

    The question is whether or not LL can legally claim that we *do* own it. The recent court and corporate statements, more than anything, seem to be calling out Linden Lab for speaking out of both sides of their corporate mouth all these years.

    Yes you own the land, except when we change our mind. Yes you own your creations, unless we close your account and allow you no access to them. Linden dollars have no value, unless we need them to secure a payment, oh and *we* sell them for USD of course. We’re not the government, but we are. File an abuse report, but eighty percent of them are non-actionable. The Grid All Hail The Central Grid is stable, if you don’t log in, or read the BOG.
32. 

    prettyboy fred
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    First off.
    I’m smart enough not to stake my family’s lives for SL ventures. You don’t own shit in SL, folks. Period.
    You can believe what the LL says or what you like, but thats the fact.

    (As Mr Alderman’s reason for lawsuits is not to crucify the dude, but to protect his family’s livelihood. *rolls eyes)

    For god sakes… Whats wrong with being a plumber?
    (Aside from ever-existing ass crack.)

    IF you can buy luxury truck with the sale of a sim, fine. But I never, NEVER risk the livelihood of my own family on SL. NEVER. and did I say never?
    And why would I advertise my stupidity with lawsuit?
    (Remember, Micky D coffee lawsuit? How can we further dumb down American society? O I know! SL lawsuit!!!)

    But then again, I ‘m not in for Sexbed biZ, and my grand piano cost more than 50K US$… so , oh well… It wont work out for me… *smirks
33. 

    prettyboy fred
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    Oh, but I love Sexgen beds. Make no mistake. I own like 3 or 4 different kind.
34. 

    Obscure Doodad
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    In reply to above:

    >>
    Obscure’s point is also exemplary of the feds-under-the-bed mentality we’ll be pumping up with this stuff too, where verification through a third-party service organization will be seen as some kind of publication of your online cybering habits for the government and corporations to plunder and harass you and fire you from your job and obtain you unfavourable divorces. It’s as if there’s no ability to *fight* stuff like that when/if it happens, which of course there is.
    >>

    There is extrapolation there that was not said. One is not fired. One is, rather, not hired, if a background check uncovers something you would rather it did not. And one could most certainly find oneself with an unfavorable divorce because an aggressive divorce attorney subpoenaed LL to find you in their perv database of Age Verified. But the most important part of that text above is the final sentence:

    “It’s as if there’s no ability to *fight* stuff like that when/if it happens, which of course there is.”

    You appear to misunderstand the process of subpoena.

    From Law.com (http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1138961111185)

    The relevant text is the final phrase in:

    “But before you breathe a sigh of relief, remember that the feds could ask Google for your search history. And so can any private litigant with an axe to grind and a subpoena in hand. If someone does deliver a subpoena to Google for your records, there is no law that requires that you even be notified, much less be afforded an opportunity to object.”

    The last phrase there is operative. The article was about Google, but the same is true of a subpoena to LL. You are not notified of it until the results are submitted to the court. I am not sure how you think you “fight” it at that point, but however you think you do will cost you legal fees.

    Further, also from that article, and again the final phrases are operative:

    “The recording industry has already served more than 19,000 subpoenas on Internet service providers (ISPs) seeking the identities of those accused of infringing copyrights by downloading music. And Apple Computer has served subpoenas on ISPs seeking e-mails to unmask anonymous sources relied upon by journalists for rumors about future Apple products. What’s to stop local law enforcement authorities from routinely sending subpoenas to search engines in criminal cases? Or divorce attorneys? Or civil litigants?”

    Make no mistake about it. LL’s responding to subpoena and providing full personal information, as they must, places anyone foolish enough to Age Verify at enormous future potential risk.
35. 

    Yo Brewster
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    Who cares how much the guy is asking for these toys? Who cares what he’s actually selling? I think some people are missing the point here. Forget about how big of an asshole this guy is and what he’s actually selling. If somebody was able to sell exact copies of his creations, then that needs to be stopped. Again – Linden Lab needs to act faster when DMCA’s are filed.
36. 

    Lynette Radio
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    I see all this as two points. One, this guy is using the Eros LLC name (Sexgen) in selling the beds he got in whatever manner (reproduction, copybot, whatever). I’m guessing he’s not authorized to use the name Sexgen. Second, who cares what the object does in-world, the fact is, if it is an exact copy he stole **software code** to make it work.

    If you ripped off code from M$, sold it under their name, and pocketed the money, would they not sue?

    And as a consumer, I’d be pissed if I thought I bought a real Sexgen bed and found out it was a knockoff, or not supported by Eros LLC. This impostor is not just affecting some pin money that Eros makes, this is his F/T job (correct me if I’m wrong)?

    As far as LL, I didn’t read into any of the articles (or legal papers – yes I did read it ALL) that LL was being sued, just asked for the RL info of this avatar so legal proceedings can follow.
37. 

    FlipperPA Peregrine
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    Don’t forget, it isn’t just IP addresses. Paypal is also named – so, clearly, the money went from L$ to US$ on Paypal. No Internet Cafe in the world will help keep that from being traced, as Paypal requires more verifications of real life identity through automated means than any financial institution I’ve ever seen. Toast indeed.
38. 

    DaveOner
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    I don’t understand why more emphasis hasn’t been put on the only relevant fact in the case. That is the issue of the trademark and Eros’s's allegations that this guy has been using it without permission.

    Whether or not he made similar beds is irrelevant.
39. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    >Yes you own the land, except when we change our mind. Yes you own your creations, unless we close your account and allow you no access to them. Linden dollars have no value, unless we need them to secure a payment, oh and *we* sell them for USD of course. We’re not the government, but we are. File an abuse report, but eighty percent of them are non-actionable. The Grid All Hail The Central Grid is stable, if you don’t log in, or read the BOG.

    Yes, Khamon, you’ve summed up the problem very well!
40. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    Let me repeat what I said again, Obscure, with emphasis added:

    “Could Obscure and others who keep making up this fantasy about Linden Lab serving up their personal data and its relationship to sexbeds and adult parcels please illustrate this claim ***with some bona fide RL cases where divorce lawyers/the government/corporate employers were able to gain the records of Internet porn sites in the same fashion and use that information to deny people their rights?***”

    I don’t care if Google search histories can — and are — searched or subpoened. So? That’s quite an order of difference here than SL, where there are additional layers of anonymity. And I don’t think a generic article with scare stuff in it from law.com flies — I need cases, not Internet lawyers.

    This is merely scare stuff, with no backing of CASES and DECISONS: “Make no mistake about it. LL’s responding to subpoena and providing full personal information, as they must, places anyone foolish enough to Age Verify at enormous future potential risk.”

    If you’re going to make a claim that verification is “enormous future potential risk” then I want to see REAL, LIVE CASES NOW. I want to see chapter and verse of subpoenas that *stuck* and *were used in a court of law* to win decisions unfavourable to privacy.

    Where are they?

    Don’t forget, it isn’t just IP addresses. Paypal is also named – so, clearly, the money went from L$ to US$ on Paypal. No Internet Cafe in the world will help keep that from being traced, as Paypal requires more verifications of real life identity through automated means than any financial institution I’ve ever seen. Toast indeed.

    No, Flipper, not toast. Because cut-aways, relatives, friends, all kinds of things can be done to prevent any direct line from showing up. In fact, dummy corporations aren’t THAT hard to set up on Pay-Pal and a “boiler room” could be closed precisely because heat has been applied from this lawsuit, and you will never be able to toast this person.

    The vindictive spirit in which you are discussing this lets us know that this is all about aggressive posses trying to control the economy in SL for their own benefit, not about protecting the rights of creators in a generic way for all.
41. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    >Who cares how much the guy is asking for these toys? Who cares what he’s actually selling? I think some people are missing the point here. Forget about how big of an asshole this guy is and what he’s actually selling. If somebody was able to sell exact copies of his creations, then that needs to be stopped. Again – Linden Lab needs to act faster when DMCA’s are filed.

    Because it does matter whether he is selling copies that in fact were legitimately resold because they are copies with “resell/transfer” on them, or whether he used an exploit to make the copies.

    And it matters whether he is making a “knockoff” of a design, a cheap fake, or whether he’s literally cutting and pasting source code, i.e. scripted poseballs — and I’ve raised the issue of whether these poseballs in fact didn’t have “no transfer” on them in order to be able to sell with furniture in the first place.
42. 

    Cocoanut Koala
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    I still want to know if the Lindens made this guy remove his stuff after Stroker filed the DMCA on him.

    Or not.

    Which is it?

    coco
43. 

    Obscure Doodad
    

    Jul 5th, 2007
    

    Okay, let’s make it clear I am posting here just to participate in generic discussion and to warn people of what seems to probably most folks an enormous potential danger. Beyond that:

    “And I don’t think a generic article with scare stuff in it from law.com flies — I need cases, not Internet lawyers.”

    First, of course, it does not matter what you, personally, think or want or “need”. Nor I. As for the law.com article’s writer, he is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_von_Lohmann

    He is EFF’s senior staff attorney. This makes him a lawyer writing articles that appear on the internet. I guess that equates to “internet lawyer” as you labeled him, but I do not understand how such a label challenges his knowledge and accuracy when he pointed out in his article (that I referenced above) how subpoenas from civil litigants (like divorce proceedings) are used to uncover damaging information.

    The point of the rebuttal was to address *your* text:

    “. . . It’s as if there’s no ability to *fight* stuff like that when/if it happens, which of course there is.”

    Which I did in what I thin we can agree was conclusive fashion in the post above.

    As to the new issue of what you *want* . . . it is possible you do not have a good understanding of risk management. One generally takes action to indemnify oneself from future risks without having already endured the damage from them. There probably ARE cases and decisions to quote on Lexis Nexis and Westlaw of subpoenas used on third party internet entities to uncover damaging internet information in divorce proceedings, and I will leave it to you to spend the time finding them. I trust your integrity to post them when you do.

    But the point is, of course, that one need not do so at all because . . . risk management is taking low cost action to avoid high value damage in the future that has a probability that is at least minor and significant. The mere fact that the attorney above discusses such a thing elevates the probability to visible and significant level. Even more favorable for all of us, the action required to avoid the life destroying consequences of LL complying with such a subpoena is essentially zero cost. Simply don’t Age Verify. This is a decision that would constitute superb risk management.
44. 

    Coincidental Avatar
    

    Jul 6th, 2007
    

    And never underestimate the entertainment value of the crooks in SL. One of the most entertaining things you can do in SL is to follow the boiler room operations and gossip and speculate if the crooks get busted or not.

    Well, there is certainly a need for crime betting markets: How soon a business disappears from SL? How soon an avatar?

    “The problem for Linden Lab are the TOS tho, can thay rely leagaly say ‘you dont own it’ ?” – Barbara

    The front page says that SL is owned by its residents. The text is much bigger than in the infamous TOS. Thus, as soon as LL starts to make money, I assume that I own a piece of LL. As long as they operate on loss, I definitely don’t own LL.
45. 

    shockwave yareach
    

    Jul 6th, 2007
    

    Obscure: Whether or not you give said data to LL is irrelevant. You are ALREADY a pervert for the simple reason that you own a computer with broadband. Any lawyer worth his salt will immediately claim that you download the very worst of pornography. You can, of course, object to this as unsubstantiated hearsay. The lawyer will then smile and ask you to disprove his claim. While no, you can’t prove a negative, and yes, you can have the judge strike the whole thing, the damage will have been done.

    I do not live my life in fear of what someone somewhere might do. If my wife wants to destroy me, all she has to do is claim I molested my daughters. Simple as that; goodbye job, goodbye home, goodbye friends. So any potential danger of being on the Adult Cert list is so far down on my threat board that it’s in the noise level. Whether I join it or not is soley a matter of what data they want from me and what company will get the “honors” of handling the task.
46. 

    Coincidental Avatar
    

    Jul 6th, 2007
    

    About cracking limitations:

    A Copybot descendant can’t copy scripts. Thus, if those are present in the illegal copies,
    there are some alternatives:
    - the scripts have been reprogrammed even if the rest of the bed has seen Copybot descendant
    - there is a new exploit targeting no-copy. I doubt this.
    - a Linden has used God mode to crack the bed. And possibly an alt to deliver copies to a reseller
    - a password of a Linden has been phished and the phisher is technically competent enough to compile the open source viewer with God mode command menus visible

    These beds like the horses I referred earlier are pricey items.

    Has anybody an idea how competent or incompetent this Volkov Catteneo is technically?
47. 

    Obscure Doodad
    

    Jul 7th, 2007
    

    shockwave, I understand your perspective, but it doesn’t work that way in civil litigation. The divorce judges have already seen all the ugly accusations that children were molested. They hear them every day, just like they hear claims of spousal abuse. It’s part of the norm now in divorce filing hearings. The judges know that and they won’t sign onto it without evidence. That is why the subpoenas and Age Verify will be so profoundly dangerous. It is concrete, undeniable evidence that you did seek access to the darkest portions of SL. The accusations that you did this doesn’t get your settlement skewed. The evidence proving the claim, obtained by subpoena, is what kills you. And don’t delude yourself. By the time you’re in your 30′s or 40′s and you have your assets gutted like this, your life is destroyed. You won’t have enough years left to recover. There will be no retirement for you. You will work until you die.

    But enough of this. The issue is the copyright focus of the thread. The reality of LL subpoena response is what led to this tangent.
48. 

    Pamela
    

    Jul 9th, 2007
    

    IMO I know that first of all Linden Labs never ignores a complaint on the DMCA, Its the ONLY thing they are good at and I know for a fact that those products have been pulled because why I looked. There is no way he could get an exact copy unless uh oh people He gave it to him and if he did he got what he deserved to give it away. now he is crying. Copy bot or those other copy scripts dont let you access scripts so he cant claim some magic formula got his items stolen from him. So in order to have a exact copy seems to be the question here. To give someone something you created then cry if they use it, your own fault sounds to me someone has got greedy especially if he is asking for 3x the amount he lost AND that the items are pulled. Everyone gets copied in this game but MOST of us are satisfied with the pulling of the duplicate copies of our products some people just want the money I for one am boycotting Sexgen and all his products and will be encouraging others to do the same. Someone who would do something this underhanded is not to be trusted or worth my hard earned dollar or linden for that matter. THIS IS A GAME and if you are making your living in a game you should already know that its never stable or ever going to be there forever. sounds like he needs to go get a job and quit depending on a game to pay his bills
49. 

    Coincidental Avatar
    

    Jul 11th, 2007
    

    @Pamela

    Game or not, RL legislation “applies” in SL. It is just the US law enforcement which occurs rather randomly.

    ***************************************************************************
    According to Reuters, LL and PayPal have received subpoenas. This US subpoena process is interesting and problematic. The judge does a fishing expedition with them to learn more about the case. I’m looking forward information how LL reacts to subpoena. I’m not commenting more, because I don’t intend to help any side.

    Volkov Catteneo basically says that all the information he(?) has filed about himself is false and doesn’t lead to him in RL. I think that Volkov Catteneo is still in SL, just in case if somebody from LL is reading this and now starts to feel being ridiculed.

    I guess that the real person behind PayPal account etc. will claim that he is very surprised and never heard about SL. Yawn.
50. 

    Coincidental Avatar
    

    Jul 12th, 2007
    

    I forgot that a Copybot descendant could copy scripts for a while.

Leave a Reply