Updated: PonygirlSara Clapper Calls for Boycott: Linden Age Verification System is a Scam!
by Alphaville Herald on 06/12/07 at 8:42 pm
Community leader speaks out against Linden policies
by Urizenus Sklar, equestrian sports desk
PonygirlSarah Clapper, a Second Life ponygirl stable owner that was recently featured in an interview in the Herald, has sent out a message calling on her group members to NOT participate in the Linden age verification system. Citing security and privacy issues, she says she will not require age verified accounts and is calling on her group members to reject the system as well.
Following is her missive:
PonygirlSarah Clapper: As LL continues its scam, I am informing all my group members NOT TO VERIFY! I am not going to turn on the age verification program here, because this is a GAME. Also, I am not sure LL or the 3rd party verification system is secure. I already have seen a charge made on the card LL has on file for me, so in no way am I going to require anyone to have a verified adult account. Anyone who does verify, my advice is to keep your statements under close scrutiny. DOWN WITH VERIFICATION. SARAH CLAPPER
Update: PonygirlSarah is calling for a Dec. 11 Boycott of…something…
[15:11] PonygirlSarah Clapper: Boycott Called for DEC 11 – It has been determined that the following actions will take place here, and hopefully across SL on Dec 11 to protest the verification process: 1) no one buys or sells L$ (rent is still due, if your renting a place and tier fees are due) 2) NO ONE VERIFIES THEMSELVES! 3) NO SIM OWNERS FLAG their land unless forced by LL. PASS THIS ON TO ALL GROUPS! the more involved, the harder the hit to LL.
Pauleh Kamachi
Dec 6th, 2007
Don’t like it? quit SL.
Obscure Doodad
Dec 6th, 2007
Don’t have to quit SL. Just don’t verify. There is no reason at all to do so.
Keep in mind what is going on is not Age Verify. That is not the correct words. The correct words are Porn Access. They swagger about with pride that they are storing no information, but they are storing Y or N. That means Y, you did explicitly request Porn Access in a well known harbor of kiddie porn, or N you did not.
You can judge for yourself if you at any time in the future will ever face a situation where you don’t want it known in response to a background check or subpoena that you requested Porn Access. If you are 100% sure that at no time in the future will you ever face a situation where you would not want that known, then go ahead and RPA, Request Porn Access. There is absolutely no cost to you in not making such a Request that will be kept in their records.
Why risk it? There is small risk and zero return. No value at all in taking that risk.
Mark Mangino
Dec 6th, 2007
As an oldbie, I have NEVER had any unauthorized debits on my card I have on file with SL. The countless sim owners and business owners I know never have either. Ponygirl says in this “article” : “I already have seen a charge made on the card LL has on file for me, so in no way am I going to require anyone to have a verified adult account.” READ THAT CAREFULLY: She has seen a charge made on her card…she never mentions any unauthorized charges. She has seen a charge…from her own purchases (lindens, SLx , monthly land use fees..etc) We all have seen charges on our card….from our own purchases!..
Her unclear group message aside, her point is this: The voluntary age verification that sim owners can switch on for her island(s) will only allow residents with debit/credit cards on file to access her land. Presumeably, one has to be 18 to obtain a debit/credit card. Therefore, age verification simply relys on SL’s tried and true secure payment methods that virtually NOBODY has ever had any issues with.
PONYGIRL: simply do not turn on the age verification option for your land. However,If you want freebie accounts to have access to your land, then expect griefers.
Folks: Age verification is another tool to fight griefing as it does NOT allowing griefers with 10 minute old freebie accounts access to your islands and memebrs.
dandellion Kimban
Dec 6th, 2007
Credit card is also a good way to fight griefers. And it is not that dangerous for my privacy, identity and is not ILLEGAL for more than a half of residents.
Tom
Dec 6th, 2007
@Mark Mangino
Then they start phishing accounts.
Another stroke of genious right there.
Allana Dion
Dec 7th, 2007
It has been stated officially in a governance meeting by Michael Linden that flagging your land as adult and blocking unverified accounts will be completely voluntary. When asked what the penalty would be for not doing it, he said clearly that there would be no penalty. The chat log is here … http://www.gridgrind.com/?p=228 (sorry for making you follow a link but the chat log would be too long to paste)
On the Forum sim and Sala sim we will NOT be flagging the land using LL’s land tools. We will provide a clear warning to visitors in areas where adult content may be found and it is my opinion that is all that is necessary.
I’m with some others on this. I say do NOT flag your land. Do NOT “verify” your information. If you feel the need to provide some kind of warning or block access, use your own tools, create your own warnings.
Age “verification” is a lie, it’s nothing but a data mining scam and it does nothing to either keep out minors or provide warnings of content.
European
Dec 7th, 2007
I LOVE the idea of age verification in itself. HOWEVER, the way it is implemented by Linden Labs id disgusting. It is racist, it is discriminatory and it will lead to a Virtual Apartheid where you need to be American to access adult areas. Europeans are limited to PG areas only because of the Lindens.
Griefers can easily verify using information stolen from Social Security Death Index databases. Just do a search on google. I managed to verify a 5 minute old alt using the name John Doe, residence: non existing adress in Philadelphia, Birthdate: 1909, Date of Death: 1978, 4 digits of SS-number 6765.
HOWEVER, using my real life information I can’t verify my main account. I tried to use my ID-card, I tried to use my driver’s license. NONE worked.
Linden Labs have shown their true colors here. As a racist company trying to find their endlösung to purify the grid of Europeans.
janeforyou Barbara
Dec 7th, 2007
The problem are if you dont set ageverifi on your mature land and a underage repport you LL will shut you down
Merlin Oddfellow
Dec 7th, 2007
But we already CAN allow only residents with debit/credit card on file. So why this age verification stuff ? With a third party we can’t trust. And giving personal information (passport/ID is definetely NOT something to take lightly)… I won’t comply, i won’t flag my land, even if i have adult material. My region is “mature”, people who come it get rules. If they are not adults they are in infraction with SL TOS. If they are adults and they’re shocked, well, they can go somewhere else.
I am not sure that a movement asking people not to spend L$ is pertinent though. Knowing how individualist, playful and mostly uninformed SL residents are, it will just mobilize a tiny number of people. And give the Lindens one more argument to say that their age verification system is widely accepted.
PonygirlSarah Clapper
Dec 7th, 2007
To clarify, the charge i saw was unauthorized. It was a charge to Itunes, and it was billed from an email account linked to SL. for the security of the investigation ongoing, I will not divulge it here.
To those of you who say “Don’t like it, quit” I respond I will, if and when I find someone willing to pay to take over my 2 sims, and the initial capitol investment of $2925 USD plus an additional $500 USD in the ammount of toys and other items purchased for this supposed game. With the way the land market is going, that would be…..never, more than likely.
The argument, “Don’t turn on the verification check” likewise sounds good in theory, but thanks to the AR’s people can file under the new TOS, only 1-2 can in pratice shut down a sim with NO RECOURSE for the sim owner. The alternative for us is to see the people we depend on disapear because, for one reason or another, they can not be verified.
And if your thinking that this verification thing is only asking for a credit card, I am sorry to tell you, the form is more complex. I was invited to participate in the initial rollout, but when I saw the questions asked, it seemed more like an attempt to link a RL person with an SL account. Here is the information required to be verified:
First name:
Last Name:
Address: Mailing, City, country, State, ZIP
DoB:
ID Number from a select source: (SSN, Drivers licence, passport)
Do you really want to give all that information out, just to “play a game”?
All of the porn sites on the web only ask for a CC# or just have a user click on an “Im over 18/21″ Acknowledgement button to access their sites.
So my argument to all of you who say “oh, this is nothing”, think again. LL is attempting to link an account to a RL person, for the purpose now of saying your really an adult. But it is my belief, and the belief of other Sim and large parcel owners that this is in fact the first step to bringing in a TAX to any SL money that changes hands.
Let the rants and such ensue.
PonygirlSarah Clapper
Dec 7th, 2007
An update to the boycott. To clarify the boycott, I am calling for everyone not to buy or sell L$ on the 11th.
Coincidently, LL has also closed the gird that day, for what they are calling a maintaince program. Probally got wind of the boycott, and decided to cut everyone off from the gird, but in any case, doesn’t matter.
I will try ot keep everyone updated as to the progress of the efforts to get this LIE out into the open.
Sarah
Prokofy Neva
Dec 7th, 2007
I’ve been in Second Life for three years with multiple accounts and have over time used various kinds of payment, credit card, debit card, Paypal. I have never seen any unauthorized charge appear. That seems a total red herring, and merely a scare tactic to try to garner support.
As the Lindens have explained, you’re not required to flag your parcel as “mature content” or provide access only to those verify accounts of people who wish to access your parcel. As they say, it’s all voluntary. They put the emphasis on this to deflect the static.
BUT you *are* then liable for that adult content you didn’t wish to flag, and the Lindens make it abundantly clear that they will make *you*, not themselves, liable for any moral, social, or legal consequences. This is explained in crystal-clear fashion on the blog and reiterated in all office hours.
So what does that mean in practical terms? The Lindens are basically saying they are not going to go out looking for adult content that isn’t flagged. And Michael Linden also claimed that the volunteers are not going to be encouraged to go form posses to abuse-report people whose content they find “broadly offensive” (that remains to be seen: remember Lisae Boucher?!)
However, any real-life law enforcer, RL media, or SL group or person, can abuse report you or call in real cops if they think you violate the law in their country or community, and if they think you have allowed minors in. And here Michael Linden also made it clear how you protect yourself from that unwanted fate: you point out that you had the content flagged as adult and didn’t allow in unverifieds.
Since the Linden default is basically to say, “We have a teen grid for minors and discourage access by minors when it is reported but we can’t claim there are no minors on the adult grid,” this age verification exists NOT to keep minors out — it can’t, and they don’t claim it does. It exists to make adults with adult content *accountable* if a situation arises where minors *are* gaining access. And if you have verified your ID, and checked off your parcel, then you can claim you made a good-faith effort to avoid access by minors which will go far in your social and legal protection. It’s all about verifying adults, not kids.
So in practical terms, what this means if that if you have extremely graphic activity, you are vulnerable to reporting by your fellow residents, who have long been schooled in the anonymous police-state informant culture, and you are vulnerable to any review by the RL media or law-enforcers. That means you’re vulnerable to undercover and sting operations.
Calling for a boycott may make you feel as if you are taking charge of your simulated property and striking a blow against the Lindens, but it doesn’t make you any less vulnerable. You are on the hook; they have put you there.
Ponygirl Darkfoxx
Dec 7th, 2007
I am afraid I wont have a choice, running an adult club, I will have to become verified.
I am also against this method of verification, but more because I trust the 3rd party company LL has for this, about as far as I can throw them.
Personally, I don’t mind if anyone knows I requested porn access, that’s not an issue for me.
Anonymous
Dec 7th, 2007
Eh, unless they’re an employer (and even then, LL is asking for more info than an employer could legally ask for in some cases) or a social services department that I need something from, they do not have the legal right to request that info, which is why it isn’t mandatory, if it’s ever made mandatory, heads will roll in San Francisco.
one thing if they have your credit card, at least you can cut them off from that, once they have your real info, you cant disassociate yourself with that info.
Which is why I dont plan on buying a private sim in the future, they require that same info for you to “own” (aka lease) a sim.
Fuck Second Life and Linden Labs, get a basic account, get some money, build shit people will buy, collect as much money as possible, cash it out via SLX, and disappear.
That’s the best way to play SL, milk it dry on an economic level, dont dare put any real money into it.
Some days I can see the justification behind some griefers’ actions.
To those who see this as a literal “second life”
slap yourselves in the face and wake the fuck up and better your real life with any money you made in second life. The graphics are way better and make windlight look elementary.
FormerTundraKoba
Dec 7th, 2007
I agree with PonyGirl. Its intrusive and makes Secondlife feel like a police state. (Like it doesn’t feel that way already.) I’m not sure on the whole ‘scam’ idea, because LL still must abide the national laws in the countries that use there product. But it is intrusive and I’m not age verifying.
MilosZ MilosZ
Dec 7th, 2007
So, ponygirl Sara doesn’t want people finding out –she– is really a man and under age. These are typically the people with the most outcry against the age ver system.
watch out
Dec 7th, 2007
It’s a trickle down effect….police state measures are implemented in real life on a global and national scale and they soon trickle down….down to the state level, governors and state reps….down to the local level, mayors and aldermen….down to the personal level, interactions between neighbors and friends…and then down to the family and individual levels….where suddenly everyone is out to ruin your day and cause you as much stress as possible and they’re all terrorists and kiddie porn addicts and molestors and underage unverifieds out to ruin your day and people with alts that just want to scream obscenities and terrorize the populace with their psychotic mental problems because the world is a dark and evil place and we need to sacrifice our liberties and common sense just to feel safe in a world that’s out to get us where you can’t trust a single soul and if someone is acting abnormal you should report them to the government so they don’t affect the normal church going peace loving president supporting people.
This is what the world has come to people, wise up and follow the system or be laid low and turned to dust.
dandellion Kimban
Dec 7th, 2007
I am quite ok for Sara be whatever wants to be. This is the world of imagination, it should be closed for you poor beggars that lacks it so have to play moral police on forums.
Integrity is what integrity lacks
Dec 7th, 2007
You hear LL repeat over and over and over again that they won’t save any data other then a yes or no verified tag on your account to see if you can enter flagged parcels.
You dont hear them say that Integrity, the company that collects the data for the residents that get verification, doesnt save that data.
Because they cannot guarantee that, because Integrity DOES save all that data.
Integrity is a daughter company of a self admitted data farm, that sells the info it collects to anyone willing to pay for it.
Another daughter company of the same datafarm, is a political advice bureau for American politics, they provide voter lists etc, linked with whatever they can find about people (trough the datafarm) like political opinions, etc etc etc
EG, if you get verified, all your personal data and any other data linked to that (a.o. that you visit adult sims in SL AND what your account name is) is available to whomever is willing to pay a few dollars for it.
MilosZ, not only underaged genderswitchers dont want this system. Anyone who doesnt want all this data being available to anyone with money, especially the American political machine, doesnt want this verification system.
Mr. Dictionary
Dec 7th, 2007
@MilosZ MilosZ:
“a man and under age”
The word you were looking for, is boy.
DaveOner
Dec 7th, 2007
This is both hilarious and very sad at the same time. And who would have thought English cats living in a socialist state would claim this infringes on their privacy when they have cameras watching them on just about every corner?!
Here are a couple things for ya…
a) While I don’t know why LL is going this route when they had a reasonable setup in late 2005 with using your CC or cel phone info to validate your account, the fact is something like this is going to have to happen eventually. LL’s goal is to make this thing an extension of the internet and all that. Well, in the internet you can find just about anyone’s personal information especially if you are trading money with them in any way. The internet has people’s RL identities linked to their screen names in some capacity because there are real transactions going on and the internet won’t police itself.
In order for SL to someday become a viable business platform (which it isn’t now) something like this will have to go into effect.
b) “Racist”? “Virtual Apartheid”? “Data being available to…the American political machine”?! You people are fucking nuts. No wonder corporations and semi-elected officials are getting away with whatever they want! You assholes are too busy complaining to try to protect your rights IN A FUCKING GAME so you can pretend to have sex with cartoon animals and pretend rapists to notice or act on any actual injustices! They’ve got you right where they want you; too distracted with your gadgets and consumer products to pay attention to what’s really going on and doing something about it.
All your claims of oppression by a FUCKING VIDEO GAME COMPANY is an insult to all the people who have felt REAL discrimination and oppression in life. Go to India or Brasil or many parts of Europe and see what discrimination really looks like.
c) A boycott in the manner discribed above is laughable. Not buying or selling L$ won’t do shit as long as you’re still paying your tier costs. LL doesn’t make money off of L$ like they do for land costs. And not enough people will do any of this to make it worth while because when it comes down to it you’re all still going to log on and do what you’ve been doing. They’ve gotten away with doing plenty of things and you people just complained for a week on the internet then went back to giving LL money like the lemmings they are.
SL is the ADHD Nation personified.
Nacon
Dec 7th, 2007
While 72% of people has been ASKING for age verified system in SL to put off the greifers.
…and you haven’t shown a proof that it’s a scam.
You’re an idiot, get over it.
corona
Dec 7th, 2007
25 million child support agency records -
QED
a very good reason not to give more details thna the minimum necessary
SqueezeOne Pow
Dec 7th, 2007
I won’t verify because I don’t participate in any of the sex stuff in SL so I won’t miss anything. I personally would like to see people leave SL because of this. It’s that much more server and land space for me and the people out there that go to SL to be creative!
Also, one thing you guys are missing is the fact that people in LL have mentioned in passing the notion that someday the teen grid and main grid will be merged together. If and when that day comes only a system like this would work to keep kids out of areas they shouldn’t be in. Parents give kids their own credit cards all the time these days so CC info won’t be enough. That is IF that was actually to happen.
And what does it say about what you’re doing if you’re afraid of anyone finding out? It kind of shows your opinion of sex in general and the activities you take part in specifically. If you feel guilty about doing what you do then maybe you should review what it is you’re doing.
Age verification is the least of your worries if you think so little of yourself and what you’re doing to feel ashamed if you were to be exposed. The first step in any real social movement is getting over any feelings of shame involved. The way to do that is to figure out why it is you feel that shame in the first place. In the case of an actual social movement like the civil rights movements of the 60s and later people started figuring out that the shame they felt was forced upon them by a flawed institution and had nothing to do with anything they actually did. Can you honestly say the same applies to you?
I don’t know what each person is doing but it could be you’re supposed to feel ashamed of some of your actions. That’s for you to figure out.
marilyn murphy
Dec 7th, 2007
ahem. my husbands’ work involves finding people. his comment when i told him about this is… it’s to late. all that means is you might get on some list somewhere, and more than likely, you are already on it. there is no privacy if you ever bought something on credit or have an address or have a drivers license or own a vehicle or have utilities or a email addy.
good luck to us all.
Obscure Doodad
Dec 7th, 2007
People, LL is doing nothing more than ongoing reaction to the terror that hit them 9 mos ago with the child porn scandal. The were very likely contacted by law enforcement and told to do something to stop it or face both civil (money) liability and/or criminal charges.
And so they take action to absolve themselves of responsibility for anything and transfer all risk of exposure of having explicitly Requested Porn Access (that’s what a Y means) to you. They care about them. They care not a whit about you.
This tidbit above, however, is incorrect:
>>
BUT you *are* then liable for that adult content you didn’t wish to flag, and the Lindens make it abundantly clear that they will make *you*, not themselves, liable for any moral, social, or legal consequences. This is explained in crystal-clear fashion on the blog and reiterated in all office hours.
>>
The Lindens do not decide who is liable. The courts do. The do not “make” anyone liable because they have no say in the matter. They can put verbage in the TOS you click and even that does not matter. Pretty much everyone who knows anything of law knows that you cannot absolve yourself from liability due to negligence. With negligence pointed at, (the ability to cam into adult parcels, the sheer fact that LL has made it voluntary (they know if it’s mandatory their customer base will crash)) they are going to be liable themselves.
So ignore the talk about LL dodging legal liability and putting it all on you. They can’t do that. They ARE liable for what is on THEIR servers. They are explicitly negligent in deploying a system that pretends you have control of their servers. Negligence trumps the TOS and anything else they might say.
Don’t Age Verify. Don’t flag your land. Publish in writing that all liability for what exists on hardware belongs to the owner of that hardware.
Ari
Dec 7th, 2007
What an F*ing joke.
All the knee jerk reactions are a real hoot and so laughable.
I WILL flag my entire sim.
You don’t want to verify – good riddance.
Tired of n00bs and uneducated boneheads wandering around with all there bling and nosy busy-bodies thinking my showroom is another fee-sex area.
And, if you’re thinking ‘ooh, gonna lose sales… restricted access… boycotts…”
heh. Go for it.
That’s what On Rez and SL Exchange is for. And a vendor or two elsewhere in world.
The point I’m making is I think Age Verification is the best griefer and idiot n00b defense yet.
UhNope
Dec 7th, 2007
1. SqueezeOne Pow is right in the sense that the ashamed are those who are seemingly ashamed of being human, offended at adult content in the first place, to be reminded that humans are merely animals and not sacred beings committing sacred acts as a creator god intended. The ashamed are those who legislate against sodomy, against homosexual marriage, against interracial marriage, against “obscenity”, against “unnatural” acts (any sex act not involving missionary position and solely the genitals), sex out of “wedlock”, distributing masturbation devices, and sexuality in general. All of these were at one time institutionalized as illegal in the US (and some still are), to say nothing of the rest of the world, and usually made illegal based on the somewhat disappointing inherently exploitative human-egocentric reasoning known as “moral grounds”. Whether or not SqueezeOne Pow intended to make the point, I would agree that moral oppression is indeed shameful.
2. Though often used as an oppressive sociological method of control, guilt and shame have potential aphrodisiac qualities, making proper use of the feeling of them potentially an overall positive with respect to one’s sexuality. Whether or not it was SqueezeOne Pow’s intention to make that point, it could be beneficial to learn how to harness and exploit both for personal sexual fulfillment if that is a goal, in any event.
3. Realistically, I doubt SqueezeOne Pow would voluntarily open up every aspect of his or her life to the public knowledge (note: not necessarily even public “scrutiny”), whether sexual or not, so I imagine he or she is capable on at least a fundamental level of discerning the difference between human sociological desire for privacy and the human sociologically induced emotion of shame. In this sense, the two should not be confused.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Dec 7th, 2007
>> “Fuck Second Life and Linden Labs, get a basic account, get some money, build shit people will buy, collect as much money as possible, cash it out via SLX, and disappear.
That’s the best way to play SL, milk it dry on an economic level, dont dare put any real money into it.”
This is EXACTLY what I have been doing. I haven’t put a single penny into SL. Not one. Nothing.
All I’ve done is build stuff, sell it, and shove the money into my paypal account.
Obscure Doodad
Dec 7th, 2007
Ari can flag his entire sim. And he can pay tier out of his own pocket.
What is happening here is about numbers. It’s about money. It’s always about money. LL thinks it can dodge legal fees and have you pay them instead. The rampant discussion of all the flaws in their approach will be delightful fodder for the plaintiff’s attorney who comes after them and points out their KNOWN inadequacies.
So flagging your sim restricts your traffic. If you don’t care about paying tier out of your own pocket, go ahead. Restriction of traffic is going to cut the numbers. LL knows it will. They are so terrified of the alternative that they are gambling that the costs will not drive them under.
One thing is for 100% certain at this point. Whatever smoke and mirrors Phillip Linden was briefing to his investor consortium and Board of Directors about anticipated growth rate has collapsed. The in-world economic stats have made it clear that the slope of growth is nothing at all like what it was and may be only scarcely positive. Come the next RL recession, LL probably won’t survive.
.
Dec 7th, 2007
I don’t have a problem with age verification, I’m just suspicious of how it’s being implemented..
Maria Leveaux
Dec 7th, 2007
~Lifts my head, looks for a moment, Yawns, Picks up my Nail file and returns to something More important~
Maria
Prokofy Neva
Dec 7th, 2007
Alana,
Age verification isn’t a data mining scheme or a “lie” — any more than *your own product which you are trying to sell by scaremongering about the LL system* is a “lie” — and of course it is, because you say you don’t retain data — just like the Lindens say they don’t retain data but evidently that’s not enough
You really are totally spinning this concept of “it’s ok to do nothing and it has no consequences”. That’s really the BDSM ethos shining loud and clear, eh?
Anyone can see from this chat log, that when I probed further on this, Michael Linden made it clear: there *are* consequences. You are responsible morally, socially *and legally* for what goes on your land. The Lindens will hold you to that. They will not be taking the heat; you will. That’s why they’ve set this up — it passes the buck to you. Your not accepting this passed buck doesn’t mean that it isn’t on you — it is. By going with their system, you avoid liability, pure and simple.
Your home-made system won’t be acceptable to that RL law-enforcement because it involves taking pledges from anonymous avatars who can really lie, as their statements aren’t checked with any public data bases.
Your system may make you feel like you beat the Lindens, and they may avoid conflict with you by saying that you are free to do what you want with your own scheme, but it is not a protection against liability, and they have said that. You just aren’t hearing it.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 7th, 2007
The Lindens request the last 4 digits of your Social Security number, which is something routinely required in the US as a security quesiton for validation of your credit card or your banking access.
Asking for a drivers’ license or passport number is also routinely requested by any store or bank that is taking your check to cash it or accept it for a purchase.
So this idea that it is “illegal” to demand presentation of SS# or passport or drivers’ license in the US is silly — it is done all the time for banking transactions.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 7th, 2007
Obscure, you are merely reading this information with rampant wishful thinking.
The Lindens do not decide who is liable. The courts do.
The Lindens can easily deflect the attention to the resident by cooperating with law enforcement. There are already several precedents for this, when Lindens have turned over account names and cooperated with lawyers and prosecutors in the US and Europe. So you’ll all wrong here. The law-enforcers then investigate the parties under suspicion, i.e. for child pornography or copyright theft — they don’t keep banging on the Lindens’ doors, they’d have no reason to.
The Lindens have sealed themselves from liabilty through litigation.
You have not, unless you sign up for this verification scheme.
The Lindens have real lawyers and law-enforcers advising them and crafting this policy; you have only Internet lawyers indulging your opposition defiance syndrome.
Pretty much everyone who knows anything of law knows that you cannot absolve yourself from liability due to negligence. With negligence pointed at, (the ability to cam into adult parcels, the sheer fact that LL has made it voluntary (they know if it’s mandatory their customer base will crash)) they are going to be liable themselves.
The Lindens have crafted this pretty carefully as they aren’t playing at Internet law; they have real lawyers, consult with real authorities, and run a real business. If you make a good-faith effort to comply with a regulation that is as good as it gets on the Internet, that will go far in your defense.
Again, the actual cases so far have proven this in spades — they don’t keep drilling on the Lindens, they drill on the actual suspects.
>So ignore the talk about LL dodging legal liability and putting it all on you. They can’t do that. They ARE liable for what is on THEIR servers. They are explicitly negligent in deploying a system that pretends you have control of their servers. Negligence trumps the TOS and anything else they might say.
No, they’re no more liable than tripod.com is liable or Verizon.net is liable — they will invoke the safe harbour and common carrier statuses. I don’t notice any police, lawyers, judges using in defense against any parties the idea that they aren’t really guilty, but the Lindens did it.
>Don’t Age Verify. Don’t flag your land. Publish in writing that all liability for what exists on hardware belongs to the owner of that hardware.
Nice try, but the Lindens have shifted the onus for this on the customer just as handily as the porn site shifts the owner on whomever clicks “I AM 18″ on their websites and gives a credit card.
Anonymous
Dec 7th, 2007
Also, if people wanted to stop griefers in the same manner, they’d just deny people without payment info on file!
a feature that has been around for a while now!
“but we dont want to put off potential newcomers” is the other thought. no one uses this because of this reason.
because a new user who’s testing the waters may not have that info.
Also, if I were just testing the waters, I wouldnt want to give my real information to linden labs or any other company that grabs it.
So really, the joke’s on the people who blindly sign up for this and freely give their info to a company that cant promise, with an unbreakable contract that can be tested in a court of law, that they, or any 3rd party companies that handle the data will not use the personal data for more than just verification.
If they can offer a contract that at least says that, then I MIGHT hand over some info.
but tbh, this iwll be yet another unused feature, except for some ultra paranoid people.
Tristin Mikazuki
Dec 7th, 2007
I have to aggree with Merlin Oddfellow the tax man cometh with a shotgun and a baseball bat… Look at VAT and how it was handled..no one knew intell people started getting billed.
I dont trust LL not even a little so I’m not get get the rubber stamp that I’m a good boy and follow well..cause I’m not
Nulflux Negulesco
Dec 8th, 2007
I think half of you are nuts, completely nuts. No payment info on file = griefer? Aye then you MUST have been a griefer when you started playing too. I emphasize the word PLAYING – owning a business in SL does not make it any closer to RL than someone selling WOW gold and weapons on Ebay. Can you buy and sell WOW items / gold for RL money? Of course you can. Does that make WOW an extension of real life? Hell no it doesn’t. The problem we face now was created by those of YOU who take this game too seriously. YOU who have continuously said that SL is not a game have caused this. YOU have changed the public opinion and now YOU are paying the consequences.
Allana Dion
Dec 8th, 2007
Prok,
I’m not spinning anything here, or trying to sell my system on this post, I haven’t even named my system here. I’ve only stated what I will and won’t be doing on my own land.
You’re right that I am responsible morally, socially and legally for what goes on on my land. Therefore I prefer to use my own methods of security on my land, keep my own records, and defend myself if and when it is necessary. I know that I can not depend on Linden Lab or Integrity and I don’t intend to.
I’ve made my intentions clear to the Lindens, I’ve asked what the penalty would be for choosing my own methods of protection, they’ve told me that there will be no penalty from them directly and that I am responsible for what goes on on my own land. That’s exactly what I expected them to say and I’m fine with it. I am hoping they stick to that.
I’ve made my choice. I choose to trust myself, my partners, and the system we’ve created for ourselves rather than trust a company that calls itself “Integrity”. I am fully prepared to accept the consequences if and when they come.
@daveOwner
Dec 8th, 2007
@DaveOwner:
go ahead, surf to Integrity’s homepage. Follow some links around, see where they are coming from.
I’m not being crazy, they state on thier mother company’s website themselves, that they do sell all the data they collect, it’s their buisness.
The fact that I don’t want my info to end up in certain agency’s databases, is a whole different story.
dandellion Kimban
Dec 8th, 2007
Nulflux, if somebody sells SL items or WOW gold for RL money, that makes it a RL business. Ask Anshe if she considers her company virtual….
Melanie Milland
Dec 8th, 2007
Oh, I wish everybody would stop whining and stop closing their eyes to reality.
If Aristotle/Integrity get the data, and sell it, so what? I have no political affiliation on file. My data is pretty useless to them. At worst, I get some more junk mail to bin.
I can not understand why some people want their avatar names, or the fact of their involvement in SL kept secret – what a strange notion, really!
If you do something in SL that you don’t want known in RL, you should rethink what you do in SL.
SL is NOT A GAME. With a bothway interchangeable currency, no set goals, quests, tasks, no score or health/stamina/agility, and no winning/losing, it is definitely not a game.
SL is a virtual world with a very real economy.
The fact that many residents cash out money frequently proves that. SL is not a way to live your deviant fantasies in the context of a “game”, not anymore.
Get REAL!
– Verified, but not flagging (yet!)
Suu Miles
Dec 11th, 2007
Mhm… as much as I appreciate a big gridwise boykott of the Lindens to just show we don’t want to be fooled over and over again and we don’t like the new shinies at all… I read in the official blog feed and on their downtime calender that there is a scheduled downtime for TODAY, day of the boycott
Surprise, surprise!
So I don’t think we will be able to get it done, since the Lindens still have their means to shut us all down and since they are never listening to what we have to say I think they are really fucked this time if they really dare to take the grid offline… More and more people, not only forum rats, but the normal sl sheeple start to become aware of the Lindens’ recent failure… just to name three: child avis, wonderland and age verification…
Good luck Lindens, as soon as other majors (oh hang on LL isn’t a big player) as soon as a big player open its doors for us to their new and shiny virtual worlds I am off and so are a lot of others…
PonygirlSarah Clapper
Dec 11th, 2007
Just as an update,
It seems that the LL issues that have “appeard” today as normal grid down time, have also played hands into the boycott. While I am not saying the boycott really did reach anyone at LL, I do find it ironic that almost the same time we announce the boycott, LL announced a downtime.
And, while I never did want to hurt the merchants, I can’t help but laught that LL is their own worst enemy. Not only did they bring down the grid, they also seem to have forgotten some big computer confrence in Paris (no, im not a techno perosn, but I did see a cross post to a confrence), they also are down during some of the best times for computer service providors to sign up new customers. And, on top of it, I had theorized we wouldn’t get a lot of participation in the boycott…..but now, everyone is involved, thanks to LL
Can this have been any more hilarious?
Oh wait…yea, it could be. Not going to speculate on how, but I am sure some of the more creative here could think of something.
Long live the revolution!