Interview with Supercool Sautereau: Premier of People’s Soviet Communist Party in Second Life
by Alphaville Herald on 30/01/08 at 6:06 am
by Urizenus Sklar, National Affairs desk
Forward thinking Herald readers may have feared that Soviet Communism was decomposing somewhere in the dustbin of history. But take heart comrades! It is not dead, but advancing on new frontiers and has now claimed its metaversal bridgehead on the shores of the Jessie Simulator. In this interview, Soviet Prermier Supercool Sautereau informs us that while Soviet Communists today have not forgotten their traditional concerns of economic justice, in the metaverse they have new causes and new enemies. Today the enemies include not just fascists but griefer groups like the PN and other racist fucktards, and today their weapons include not just AK-47s, but orbits and other high tech tools favored by 21st century patriots.
Urizenus: Supercool, you are the Premier of the People’s Soviet Communist Party in SL. What is that and what is its mission?
Supercool: yes, I am. our mission is the liberation of the world, and a better life for the common people.
Urizenus: That sounds ambitous.
Supercool: yes, it is, but that is the nature of Soviet communism.
Urizenus: Well, if you want to liberate the world, what are you doing in a virtual world?
Supercool: the goal is to liberate the oppressed of this world — the poor, the landless, and those who cannot fight people who are begging to grief and to shoot the new or the unarmed. We wish to create a new society free of the capitalism that has sadly followed this world from the real one.
Urizenus: ic, well lets start with protecting people from griefers. that is part of your mission?
Supercool: yes, indeed. We have a set of laws, the Soviet constitution, which we use for attempting to work as justly as possible. They regulate, among other things, our behavior towards new people not yet with the Soviet cause. In terms of our land in Jessie, we try to ask questions first and shoot later. Many new people come here, for whatever reason, and we try to teach them how to get around in Second Life. We also do our best to arm them.
Urizenus: I notice that on your wall of enemies, in addition to Hitler and capitalist pigs you have the PN
Supercool: indeed; they are not a fixed enemy though, but their picture is a visual representation of all griefers. They are indeed a major problem. But in addition to them the common griefer, who harasses new people out of Second Life, is a big problem.
Urizenus: ic., have you had to take action against them?
Supercool: during our initial time here, they did harass Jessie. It’s rough tracking them down, but when we find them in Jessie, or in the sandboxes we sometimes patrol, we do our best to get them beaten. Or at least to get innocents out of there.
Urizenus: what do you do to them?
Supercool: those mutating devices, that deform avatars, we dont use them
but we give undeformers to victims. As for what we do to griefers, we try to stick to conventional guns when we are in Jessie, but in places where they are not workable, like sandboxes or something, we try to stick with tools of least disruption. If someone attacks us, or our new friends we meet, we try to stick with orbits.
Urizenus: ah yes, the old standby. So you are happy to orbit Pns?
Supercool: or any other enemies of the people. We use orbits, so as not to disrupt the whole sim, but it’s far more satisfying to use the people’s rifles.
Urizenus: Well let me get to the issue of economics. It seems that all of SL is just a hyper capitalist wet dream. Do you really think you can change that? and if you did change it what would the new SL look like?
Supercool: change the whole way the platform works? no.But we can, as individuals striving towards a new collective, work to build our own new society, one that we would run as we run this area here in Jessie. We do not sell anything, and try not to buy anything either. Land is of course a necessary evil but we work to share anything we have with one another.
Urizenus: So this is a gift economy?
Supercool: if you call “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” to be a gift economy, yes. We all do our best to work for the cause and to create devices and tools to further our goals, and to better our Second Life experience.
Urizenus: Well is the plan to turn all of SL into a gift economy?
Supercool: ideally, communism would be the prevailing system, but realistically we want to create a smaller part of it that functions as its own system so far as possible.The platform has limits, but collective ownership and production is our goal — a democratic, communist society. Some might believe this is a contradiction, but it is not at all.
Urizenus: Were you elected premier?
Supercool:In the initial stages, no. I did have to start the group, but we have a democratic process for approving laws and we do have processes in writing for deposing the Premier, should anyone wish to.
Urizenus: Assassination? ice pick?
Supercool: hahaha no, the committee of the Soviet Marshals, who act as another ruling group, can simply elect to boot me.
Urizenus: ic. How are the soviet marshals chosen?
Supercool: through consensus notices. It’s hard to ensure that everyone votes, but we sent out notices asking for advice and recommendations.
Urizenus: How many members are in your group now?
Supercool: we have a few separate groups and have even begun helping others form charter organizations but in total, probably 100 members or so.
Urizenus: how many members do you hope you will have at this time next year?
Supercool: next year? well we hit the 100 mark a few weeks back, and have focused on research, reorganization and construction since then. But if we were aiming for membership surely dozens more, if not hundreds. We hold rallies in cities across Second Life, Grignamo as an example.
Urizenus: Do you have an education and outreach program?
Supercool: yes, of sorts. We call it the Political Brigades — communists whose goal is to spread the word of the message. I myself enjoy teaching new members personally of course, as do other longtime comrades.
Urizenus: Some people would argue that the Soviet union is a good proof of the failure of communism. How do you respond to that?
Supercool: this is not the Soviet Union.
Urizenus: you call yourself the Soviet Premier
Supercool: yes, but Soviet is a word in and of itself. A “soviet” is a worker’s council — a democratic caucus, of sorts. We do support much of the Soviet legacy though; the Soviet Union was the first engine of global communism, and the nation that most helped in destroying Fascism in World War II. But to call us Russian, or Soviet, is misinformed; our members hail from around the world.
Urizenus: And it also imprisoned and killed tens of millions of inocent people and turned the lives of its citizens into a dungeon.
Supercool: turned the lives of its citizens into a dungeon?
Urizenus: yes
Supercool: let me tell you about Western views of the Soviet Union. I do not defend it to the death, but the West has viewed it in the past as, in much the 1930s, a “beacon of progress” for the whole world to follow. Clearly true in some ways but not in all. Today the opposite is popular as a view of the Soviet Union. But the Soviet Union has done far more good than bad, and the Soviet people are owed by the history of the world a great debt for their wartime sacrifices.
Urizenus: Did you ever visit the soviet union or one of its satelite states in the day?
Supercool: those days were long ago, but no.
Urizenus: Dude, life in the soviet block sucked shit.
Supercool: in some ways perhaps, though that is a blunt view.
Urizenus: Ask anyone who lived there.
Supercool: a secure state and a progressive, brighter future was the Soviet Union’s future in the 1980s and you make a strong point but communism is by no means reviled there.The communist party, for example, is the second strongest party in today’s Russia.
Urizenus: Maybe you would be better off rejecting the soviet union and observing that it was not a true socialist state but rather an aristocracy of sorts.
Supercool: perhaps, but this is not our policy for two reasons.Firstly, it is wrong to discredit all of the Soviet Union’s policies. For example they did provide a strong social safety net, and were very advanced in t we are not all about the Soviet Union’s history. It is a part of communism; unlike the weak, decadent communists of today, we do not apologize for man’s first attempts at communist utopia. Todays communists often times are nothing more than leftists who enjoy the logos and terminology.
Urizenus: Are you familiar with other attempts to create socialist societies in SL — Neualtenberg for example?
Supercool: yes, indeed. They are very interesting. I am not too well versed in their socialism, but after visiting their lands they were well-built at the very least, and looked functional.
Urizenus: Will you reach out to such groups? — form strategic alliances with other leftist groups
Supercool: oh, of course, but many of them are disappointing. Leftists are too often just “caring” people who do not have the conviction to see things through to their end.
Urizenus: you consider them weak?
Supercool: not at all, but many of them are simply more interested in talking than in doing.
Urizenus: Do you think some day it will be possible for the people to seize control of SL from Linden Lab?
Supercool: haha, no, and this is not particularly desirable, unless the new party were interested in lowering land tier fees, which are outrageous, and lend themselves to land barons choking off creativity in the world and creating a boring, suburban world online. But I digress;
we only wish to create a new society, and to expand it so far as possible. One where rule of just and democratic law, written enforced by the will of the people, ensures fairness for all and where profit is not the end-all, be-all of life.
President Bushwacker
Jan 31st, 2008
I laugh out loud at the JLU. First of all, Green Lantern was the lamest (non)super hero ever. Without his ring he was nothing but a guy in tights. Which pretty much sums up the abilities of GreenLantern Excelsior; a guy in tights.
The only reason why the JLU gets away with what they get away with is because they are every day sucking at the Linden tit. They remind me of Roz from the movie 9 to 5, “Mr. Hart, I’ve noticed some of the girls in the office are putting plants on their desks. Should I send out a memo on that?”
Supercool Sautereau
Jan 31st, 2008
We all deserve to be banned? For doing something besides maintaining a blog with which to complain about how avatar rights are human rights (are you serious?) and other assorted nonsense? You call us kiddies – I’d sooner be a “kiddie” than a deluded fool with a superiority complex and a drive for extreme melodrama.
We deserve to be banned for wanting to do something more…dare I say…interesting, than whining and moaning about everything everyone else is doing?
You are a prime example of what is ruining the Second Life platform – a call to “order” that is steadily ensuring that nothing but the blandest, most pointless suburban housing developments are allowed in a game run by people who feel that being offended, or being heckled or even harassed, is a mortal crime that is ruining their whole life.
If you disagree with communism, that’s your business. If you want to ban us for our beliefs, that’s your problem. We all have our own ideas of what we want Second Life to be like for ourselves and our friends. We personally want our own, separate society, and thats what we are working toward.
Your problem, and that of the JLU and other crypto-fascist wannabe police groups, is that you want to enforce your beliefs on everyone else through some warped interpretation of the Terms of Service. Honestly – get over yourselves.
Kalel Venkman
Jan 31st, 2008
Imagine my surprise to find responses to “Kalel Venkman’s” post in this article – and once again, I had to have it pointed out to me.
I won’t even bother to address the points in this article, or the replies to posts apparently made in my name. I’ll guess that this is just more sock puppetry, and that dialog back and forth between “myself” and my detractors here is actually all one person posting. The editors of the Herald should be able to confirm this and put this matter to rest.
Once again, the only authentic statement from Kalel Venkman in this thread is the following:
Posts appearing to have been made by me in this thread are not mine, save this one. Neither I nor the League threaten others. No statement appearing to come from me in this thread before or after this post is authentic. I do not endorse interference in anyone’s real life activities, and never will. I have no illusions that I am empowered by any real world authority to do so – if there is a matter for the police or the FBI, then beyond reporting a matter to them, there is nothing concerning me there, nor should there be for anyone else.
Vendetta and hate are a waste of energy and consume the spirit. Move on.
GreenLantern Excelsior
Jan 31st, 2008
Just FYI, folks:
“It pains me to see such slanderous words written about our group yet again. I think our record of fighting griefers should speak for itself.”
That’s Kalel.
“I am warning you for the last time now, to stop this immature childish streak, or I will call your university and speak to them about disciplinary actions for your online behavior.”
That’s not Kalel. He would never say something like that. And he would never capitalize a word in the middle of a sentence. The second post was written by an imposter using Kalel’s name.
“You crypto-fascist dog!”
THERE’S that supercool 60s Soviet-style rhetoric!
“If you cared about anti-griefing, you’d be holding seminars for everyone, giving them pointers on how to protect themselves the right way, and how to report people trying to crash their sims.”
There was a security seminar held last year, and another one is being planned for this year.
“I know you already give pointers on ARing people. But you don’t give them pointers when it comes to griefers and trolls. which is very simple and it makes you useless! The trick is, you ignore them and boot them out and don’t give them any satisfaction!”
You’re exactly right. If there’s a griefer causing problems in your area, you should eject him. But what if you’re visiting another sim where no one present has eject or ban powers? Or what if you’re in Linden-owned land like Sandbox Island? You won’t be able to boot out the griefers, and in that case all you can do is write an AR. Five ARs and the Lindens come running. Make that your personal motto and you’ll have the griefer problem solved.
“But we all know you don’t actually care about the evil griefers, In fact you need them, because without them, you’d have no point and would have no power.”
No griefers in Second Life? That would be great! We could turn New Oa into Gotham City West and sit around role playing all day, fighting against Sinestro and the evil Qwardians. Unfortunately, like criminals in real life, there will always be griefers in Second Life, so there will always be a need for public-spirited citizens to call 911 when necessary. As for having no power without griefers, don’t tell anyone, but…
(we don’t really have special powers – we’re just regular SL residents who like to dress in colorful e-spandex and fly around looking cool)
Shhh…if people find out they can write their own ARs, they might decide to teach others to do it too, and soon everyone would know how. And we wouldn’t want THAT, now would w?
DaveOner
Jan 31st, 2008
/me raises his hand “I don’t like Kalel too much! And I haven’t even met him in SL!”
JLU is as fascist as the Justice League in the comic books. A friend broke the comic down for me once and it makes perfect sense.
Think about it. They feel that their judgement of what is good and evil is far and above that of the world’s governments to the point that they construct facilities and technology for the sole purpose of monitoring the world and interfering in events they feel aren’t going the way they should regardless of if they’re summoned or not.
The only difference between the comic book JL and JLU is that the stories are written to show the average mortals as grateful for their divine intercession. The same isn’t true of SL by any means.
JLU is not neccessary. Their philosophy is a step in the wrong direction for society, RL or SL.
Wiretap anyone?
IntLibber Brautigan
Jan 31st, 2008
Supercool sez: “Who wants to participate in Second Life just so they can write abuse reports together with other people?”
Sorry, you fail. If theres anything soviet communists love to do is write reports and inform on others so they get sent off to the gulag to work until they die. You fail at being a soviet communist, your resignation is hereby requested.
lulzinator
Jan 31st, 2008
I nominate Supercool as the new biggest lulzcow in SL. I swear half the comments here are by him, that breaks even Prok’s record.
Machiavelli
Jan 31st, 2008
Kalel: “But by hook or by crook, this will end.”
Ah, conversion to the dark side is now complete!!! The ends justify the means, always!
I hearby declare you Darth El, my Sith Apprentice!
Penny Sautereau
Jan 31st, 2008
@Kal – I’m not anyone else but me Kal. You spoke to me in person once in my old shop, deep down you know this. But by saying I’m Nikola every time I add my two cents about how YOUR OWN WORDS are shooting you in the foot, you just prove everybody right. Predictable Kal; Trying to discredit or MacCarthy someone whose opinion differs from yours.
@Penny Blowmyass – Awww did you think that load of tripe up all by yourself? Here, have a cookie. Most of your rambling attempt to flame me speaks for itself in it’s lying stupidity, but I will note that you thinking my laughing at my trolls’ ineptitude is “raging” against them just shows how little you really understand any of this. The only one looking dumb in your little failpost there is you. I mean christ, I haven’t talked about E-Rape in an article since the one and only article I wrote about it, and that article was actually about Rape FANTASY and how it should be kept private. But then the feeble brained do love to latch onto one point and beat dead horses with it ad-nauseum don’t they?
@Chav Paderborn – I’m mystified how stating I’m unimportant and don’t matter to SL, and that the trolls are just proving their utter patheticness, by wasting valuable time trying and failing to annoy me, when they could be finding things to do that actually mean something, instead of obsessing on getting a laugh at my expense and only getting laughed at instead is stroking my ego, but hey, your entitled to your opinion, however warped.
@sheesh – Blow it out your ass sunshine. No, I don’t care what they THINK of me. I only care my opinion be posted, since god knows everyone else’s is. And since yes, they often do post about me first, I’ve every right to post a reply laughing at them. YOU obviously care or you wouldn’t get your panties in such a bunch screaming about whether or not I care.
As for the religion articles? Neither of them slandered anyone, but you my dear idiot just showed one reason why I gave up on continuing the series; Idiots like you that completely missed the point of the positivity and tolerance I was hoping to foster who get up on soapboxes and rant like delusional idiots about slander that is completely non-existant.
Whether you not you think I care Mister or Mrs. Sheesh, how about you prove how superior you are to me by showing you don’t care and just shutting the hell up about it. The trolls just amuse me, but you? You get on my nerves you pompous ass.
Except for the articles I have in the Queue, I’m taking a break. Maybe if I stop posting my glorious self-aggrandizing rants, all these twits who could care less about me will get bored without their cow to milk and go find something better to do.
And yes, that was sarcasm.
Artemis Fate
Jan 31st, 2008
@Kalel
Wow, Kalel, I used to see you as being a fairly reasonable man though a bit of an over-inflated sense of self when it came to importance and ability to “combat griefing”, but these last two posts of yours have plummeted your standing to somewhere below “batshit crazy” and somewhere above “Prokofy Neva”. Still accusing Penny of being Nikola despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Saying that anyone not in your group is “no better than griefers”? Threatening to call Nikola’s university over something that a.) may not (and almost certainly isnt) Nikola, and b.) is a stupid online bout, not to mention c.) is the same kind of violation of disclosure and stalker kinda behavior that you bitched about with Tizzer.
“Funny how there never seem to be neutral groups that go against us. That should speak well enough for our credibility. Those who are truly doing good are with us, and those against us, well, the record should make that clear.”
I may not be a group, nor do I speak for a group when I say this, but I think you are an insane dickweed of massive proportions, and the JLU are little more than a useless secretative elitest nosey neighbor group. What concoction of griefing can you dream up for me? What conspiracy theory are you figuring out as I do this? I’m not an anonymous name, and i’m not a griefer, what does that say for your credibility.
Take off the cape and drop the god complex, you’re not Superman, and every thought you have on morality and ethics in the grid isn’t automatically the baseline from which all others are judged.
Kalel Venkman
Jan 31st, 2008
Keep it up, Supercool. Keep denouncing those of us trying to do some good in this world, and continue in the shadows of Woodbury. We’ll be more than happy to pull some strings and shut you down just like them.
anonymous, or should I say again, Nikola, no matter how you try to deflect blame from yourself, it won’t work. Everyone can read these comments, and I will be forwarding them to the proper authorities. I guess you just can’t seem to learn, so I will be calling your university today.
Levi Anansi
Jan 31st, 2008
First off, it’s unfortunate that “anti-grieving” even came up in this article since the sim our group resides in is Jessie. I have not personally seen these guys grief, or anti-grief anyone. That goes to the extreme in SC Sautereau’s case, because I have personally seen him lecture others on the fallacy that either group has a place in SL. The PSCP does not sit in the welcome area with a “sl police” tag over their heads telling people to put away this, change that, or regulate their speech to SL code under the threat of violence if they do not comply. The JLC, amongst many other want to be Linden groups cannot say this without the polygraph exploding. We live in Jessie, which means certain freedoms are bestowed upon those that visit the sim, even those with the idea of “owning” the sim. The PSCP may be the friendliest group to newcomers in Jessie since Opfor, perhaps even more so since we don’t have a financial stake in them staying, fighting, and buying weapons in Jessie. There is a gun store in Jessie owned by “East Ecuador” (whoever the hell they are) and it is currently a complete failure. There is no community, no purpose, just an empty building sitting on a formidable land holding that does nothing for the sim what so ever. Most educated shoppers visit, see their weapons are little more than expensive versions of old opfor guns and move on to purchase their weapons in Apollo Case’s island. SPCP is not an anti-grieving group, and it never has been. And true to his word, Sautereau is giving clothing, weapons, and advice away for free to group members in Jessie, there is no hook. When a member tried to build a for profit shop on our land it was quickly shut down.
As to anti-grieving in Jessie. There is no anti-grieving in Jessie. There are land owners, with group land, and those that seem to drop by once in awhile with the idea that their new gizmo/script entitles them to “take the land” for as long as they see fit. They want to treat it like old Rausch, which barely exists anymore, well it’s not Rausch, and unlike Rausch, existing, legitimate groups still have rights in Jessie. Most of these rights are not covered by ARs, and the first and foremost of these is to be able to access group land. PSCP will report the self replicating prims, and those reports are usually successful because they extend into Clyde and Stanford which are script controllable areas. Jessie? No, all scripts are turned on, so if returning script for script in our (partially our) sim means we are localized AGs then fine, but that is a narrow view of what it means to live there. To my knowledge, I know of no PSCP attacks outside of Jessie using these tools.
As to SC’s claims of ARs having little affect for non-paying players, I am afraid I have to concur. I have seen PSCP members thrown all over the grid for days on end, filing abuse reports like Ronald sells McMuffins, with no response. On the same day, I carry a sign into support island, get orbited by an Anti-Griever (a real one, police tag and all), file an abuse report and within 2 hours get a message from that said “officer” that I am a made man, because LL responded to a single report! I am a landowner, a subscriber, my friends in the group were not at the time, but they were on group land getting spawn camped and crashed.
Really, this whole thing is silly. Uri fell behind the WWIIOLers like a French conscript in WWI commanded to charge the German lines. He ate every single word they said and gladly regurgitated it online for all to read. He also happily ignored history in his criticisms while they jumped all over Jessie wearing swastikas on their arms, and while they grieved many outside of Jessie. They were part reality hack, part fun loving, part conservative reactionist, and part racist trolls. The least he could do is extend a neighboring group with better mores a fair shake.
Proteus Hand
Jan 31st, 2008
Wow… so much testosterone flung about in one forum… maybe there really aren’t any women on the internet. Anyways, grading this comment box, I’d have to say that the actual article has you guys beat.
No, seriously, Anonymous has actually come forth and said shit actually valuable in it’s intellectual promise, and has merit in being heeded.
Of course, the caped crusader’s posts initially began as helpful, as well as true, the air of a self proclaimed unblemished moral persona combined with a self-generated sense of clout and expertise in this matter over everyone else brings back memories of the old Alliance Navy, before they decided to just stop trying to police people.
Now, your bit of instruction on how to “properly” handle a griefer in an area such as a sandbox through the use of abuse reports evades punishment grounded in their clause of citizen behavior. (Or whatever, I’m too tired to scroll back up to read that shit.) However, the logic is completely fallable because the “violent” actions would be taken in response and equal moderation to the griefer, not to mention, if what you say about constant abuse reports hitting LL en masse is true, then I seriously doubt that they would be titled “mah naybur has dum shooz”. Simply because even the stupidest animal can evolve through trial and error, and lindens are kind enough to send feedback on your AR’s.
- Personally, I find the two bits you wanted to put in there not so much a bit of helpful criticism, but more of an advertisement that there are also people out there, who, based upon their statements spend no time at all in sandboxes, yet still know how to deal with griefers in a civilized manner.
Of course, the Soviets here, are also being put to the test because they know jack shit about Marxism/communism/socialism, and decided to try to make sense out of whatever it was that everyone was shouting at the beginning of Call of Duty 2, and when criticized by Raideur, they quickly changed the subject to “oh, well, ur jus mad cuz wen i wuz breakin ur militareez combat and lan agreemunt, U GOT MAD AN U LIEK SONIK DA HEDHOG SO UR DUM.”
Nice publicity stunt there, Soviets, you almost had EVERYBODY fooled there for awhile.
And of course, there’s that fucking argument that keeps shifting between Codec and somebody else, usually an imaginary intlibber or “dickgirl” as he’s commonly referred to. Really, go find each other, in real life, and… grab some knives, and hack at each other’s fingers until you can no longer type this shit.
As for those of you who are freaking out because this article is about “soviets”… go back to 1950, dumbshits. They’re dead, quit pissing your pants. Besides, this is just a gimmick to stir up the public with shock value to get more people to talk about them, just like Anon when all the gaiafags ruined them.
anonymous
Feb 1st, 2008
OH OKAY “KALEL”
No Name
Feb 1st, 2008
“Keep it up, Supercool. Keep denouncing those of us trying to do some good in this world, and continue in the shadows of Woodbury. We’ll be more than happy to pull some strings and shut you down just like them.
anonymous, or should I say again, Nikola, no matter how you try to deflect blame from yourself, it won’t work. Everyone can read these comments, and I will be forwarding them to the proper authorities. I guess you just can’t seem to learn, so I will be calling your university today.”
Ok, I’m calling bullshit on this and the other “off” comment by “Kalel Venkman” (not the real Kalel Venkman who posted above with his disclaimer) I know the real Kalel Venkman inworld and THIS IS NOT SOMETHING HE WOULD SAY. This is an obvious, and typical, SLH comment impostor, most likely a PN member. Also the typing style is strangely unKalel like, the real Kalel is far more eloquent and HE WOULD NOT STOOP TO THIS LEVEL.
This has to be a PN or Channer for look how quickly one of them jumps on the comment, as though they typed both fake Kalel comment and the response at the the same time. Whether I’m wrong about it being PN or not, this differently NOT Kalel Venkman.
Kalel Venkman
Feb 1st, 2008
Supercool, abuse reports against your confessed orbiting have been filed. Perhaps when you return from your suspension, you won’t be nearly so hostile to good people.
Linden TitSucker
Feb 1st, 2008
I am a spandex wearing fagola. I am part of the justice league. When we are not on “patrol” in our SLPD alt avies, we are rubbing our tiny spandex encased penises against n00bs and telling them how we are super (duper) important.
It is not enough that we are fags, we are spanfags. Weekly, I go to Kremer and suck michael linden’s gorilla tit and tell him how our group is saving second life from all of the evil people who are trying to create interesting things.
my rant is done, and i gotto go. I have to file a abuse report against the cock bite who turned off scripts in the jessie sim.
d3adlyc0d3c
Feb 1st, 2008
“And of course, there’s that fucking argument that keeps shifting between Codec and somebody else, usually an imaginary intlibber or “dickgirl” as he’s commonly referred to. Really, go find each other, in real life, and… grab some knives, and hack at each other’s fingers until you can no longer type this shit.”
Dickgirl refers to the retarded bitch who writes for SLH and not intlibber, fucktard. No one ever referred to intfaggot as dickgirl. lurn2read.
Where did this idiot come from? lols.
Penny Sautereau
Feb 1st, 2008
@Levi Anansi – I’m a paying member and my AR’s last year were ignored. It isn’t just that you pay, you also have to own hundreds of USD’s worth of virtual land too. THEN they notice you.
@Proteus Han – I’m a she, regardless of twits who insist to the contrary. And I don’t argue with the unnamed one, I mock his inept obsession with me, and even that I’m giving up on, there’s no point in it.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 1st, 2008
We give out free weapons as well as clothing, defense items, and anything else we can to people who might be able to better enjoy the game with it. This isn’t freebies – it’s reasonably good stuff that passes, in the nearby shop, as something worth upwards of 1000L. Of course, depending on how much people pay into the system, they start to think everything else is a freebie, so that’s your call.
If you honestly think we know nothing about communism, then just come by and talk to me about it. Or you can listen to some gun-happy reactionaries who say that’s the case and agree with them. Communism at its heart is about sharing all things with all people and eliminating the concept of something being “all mine.” I figured I would avoid the bigger terminology in the interview because they would likely bore people. If you wanted to hear a discussion about Marx and Engels – sorry. Come by and you can get one.
We only attack griefers in Jessie. This is perfectly legitimate because firstly, its legal to shoot anyone you want there, and orbiting is legal too, though its usually avoided in favor of shooting because its also a form of griefing. When we used to work in sandboxes we would help people there to undeform and give them orbiters and so on.
Most of our members will probably never file another abuse report again. They have never achieved anything, regardless of the gravity of the situation, and likely never will. The genius IntLibber says they should be fun for communists; conceivably they would be, if they achieved anything. Writing a page out and throwing it into the fire is no fun at all.
Proteus Hand
Feb 1st, 2008
“Where did this idiot come from? lols.”
Every article on the damned herald that involves you, Intlib, Penny, Intlib arguing with imaginary codec, Penny arguing with anyone, Codec arguing with anyone, or Imaginary Intlib calling you out.
Does anyone else miss the days when Harlequin Salome would verbally thrash Prok up and down the herald in an intellectual argument that was more or less, entertaining to read?
Chav Paderborn
Feb 1st, 2008
Sitting on a prim is the cheapest defence against orbiting griefers.
I can has JLU membership nao?
Jim Schack
Feb 1st, 2008
IntLibber said: Sorry, you fail. If theres anything soviet communists love to do is write reports and inform on others so they get sent off to the gulag to work until they die. You fail at being a soviet communist, your resignation is hereby requested.
If there’s anything that you like to do is file DMCAs, squeal to U.S. Congress about online gambling to squash competition, have immigration checkpoints, want a wall on the Mexican border, run a police state, and a snitch society. YOU fail at being an anarchist and a liberty activist. You’re resignation is hereby demanded.
Jim Schack
Feb 1st, 2008
Also, IntLib, you say that John Sununu is more libertarian than Ron Paul. The guy voted for the Iraq War Military Commissions Act (his excuse for voting for it was “The Constitution is not a suicide pact”), National ID Card, to allow ease dropping without a warrant, a 2000% increase on cigar taxs, increse minimum wage, and on and on and on.
here’s a video of real libertarians protesting Sununu’s presence at the New Hampshire Liberty Forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVCH8RxwJZ4
Also; kill yourself.
d3adlyc0d3c
Feb 1st, 2008
“Every article on the damned herald that involves you, Intlib, Penny, Intlib arguing with imaginary codec, Penny arguing with anyone, Codec arguing with anyone, or Imaginary Intlib calling you out.”
Yeah I kinda like it that way. Also lets not forget about the imaginary Proteus Hand who came and imagined that we wanted to hear his 2cents.
Vegna Fouroux
Feb 1st, 2008
FAR MORE GOOD THAN BAD?
ARE YOU ON CRACK!
the german wehrmacht killed 5 times as many russian troops due to the soviets poor training only be sheer numbers did they finally overwhelm the germans
interesting stalin killed more and was worse than hitler
yest why is it okay to write communist articles and have hammer and sickles and yet deeply wrong for swatikas to be shown
history it seems is truly written by the victors…..
Greefin Oh
Feb 1st, 2008
Wow, so they’re basically throwing all griefers into the “PN” pool, and declaring war on them? Yeah that’s a real bright idea there Mr Supercool. Heh, this cat has no idea what he just opened. And if my memory serves me well, “orbiting” in retaliation is against the ToS. In fact, everything and anything done in retaliation is forbidden, unless in a Combat Sim… except lolcubes, and things of that nature that bring down sims with lag.
That’s what these cats don’t get. You can’t fight fire with fire. And even if you could, it won’t solve griefing.. It just encourages it more.
It encourages me even more to meet these awesome people. I think I will pay them a visit. Let the games begin! >:)
PS. I didn’t bother to read the rest of the article, because I frankly don’t care for people trying to be “scary e-cool with scary cool Communist Militant Outfits” do on the internets.
Han Fei
Feb 1st, 2008
What droll humor! Stalin and the good old days! Everyone I know in the Russian community lost family members to the evil regime that this group of idiots is imitating in SL. I wonder if you, as a journalist, would have such a friendly interview with Nazis in SL? Can you explain the difference between Hitler and Stalin? Ah, one got on the winning side of the war after the other attacked him? Well, that’s a hell of big difference, isn’t it.
You should be ashamed of yourself for publicizing these thugs and their humorous nostalgia for the days of murder and starvation that the Soviet regime produced.
Vegna Fouroux
Feb 1st, 2008
well said han seriously its disgusting these bloody soviets just because they won they somehow are above the equally disgusting nazis
you disappoint me SLH i dont expect real news but i do expect some humanity
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 1st, 2008
To start things off, no symbols should be banned. If you want to goose step around Second Life with your swastika armband, you should be allowed to, because that’s freedom of speech and so on. You are right. Communism is controversial too and I am very well aware that many people, quite mistakenly, believe Stalin is a simple, murderous despot. But rather than banning all controversial symbols, all should be allowed. If someone wants to spend their money buying land for a temple to Hitler, let them. Go protest them or something. Shout them down or argue with them. Don’t ban anyone’s symbols. Let the marketplace of ideas decide. I mean, unless someone surrounds your plot of land with land of their own and fills it with swastika prims, but its clear what I mean.
That said, we shoot the Nazis we come across in Jessie, because that’s also a right in that sim.
If you want to talk about the Soviets and how “evil” they were, then you can continue to talk about casualty counts and whine about how Hitler wasn’t as bad as Stalin and so on, but that’s complete bull. Hitler killed far more people than Stalin did, even though Stalin’s deaths were due to a war, a famine, and an assault on political enemies determined to bring down the new regime and who were left over from a civil war, and he managed to start a world war on top of that. Stalin acted in military self defense. You can belittle the skill of the Russian fighting man and woman, but the truth is that they won the war with the help of some Allied bombing and an invasion at the time that the war had already been decided anyway. It is also unarguable that the Soviets, toward the mid and latter stages of the war, had learned how to fight and were not merely winning by numbers either.
As for knowing people who had personal losses, okay. Everyone says that. You start a debate about Nazis, and someone always claims they had grandparents who were killed at the hands of Hitler. It’s easy to say you’re connected personally to something because nobody will call you on it for fear of seeming heartless. The fact remains that Soviet casualties have always been over exaggerated by Western sources biased at their core. Communism is still widely revered by many in Russia; the second biggest political party in Russia is the Communist Party, and the Putin government has acted increasingly like the Soviet governments of the past, for better and for worse.
And if you really want to come by and grief to prove a point or something, then feel free. PN already harass Jessie without us. Since the Lindens responded to our abuse reports by turning off scripts in Jessie, the place is now worthless to griefers anyway. But it is interesting how griefers of all kinds still talk about the ToS like it’s some kind of holy law, whether they are declared griefers or JLU police griefers.
Our outfits are not scary either, or at least I didn’t think so. Unless you consider uniforms to be scary regardless, ours don’t even have insignia on them. They’re meant to be simple and easy to distribute.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 1st, 2008
And by the way, the Red Army of the Soviet Union was responsible for saving Eastern Europe from the completion of the ravages of the Holocaust by liberating the death camps. The Allies wouldn’t even bomb the train tracks that led to them. You don’t have to declare the Soviets to have been angels, as no great power is, but to call them pure devils is to be blind to the sum total of their history.
Artemis Fate
Feb 1st, 2008
Whoever is forging my name is not doing a very good job of writing.
- “may not…Nikola” – Something that may not Nikola? What does this mean?
- “is a stupid online bout” – Are you a wannabee Shakespeare, or what? I would say “battle,” but never “bout.”
- “a useless secretative elitest nosey neighbor group” – Do you mean “secretive elitist nosy?” Are you smarter than a fifth-grader?
- “what does that say for your credibility.” – Normally we English-speakers place a question mark at the end of a question.
- “plummeted your standing to somewhere below “batshit crazy” and somewhere above “Prokofy Neva”.” – This is the worst mistake of all. Regardless of what I might think of a person, I would never stoop to personal insults. Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone who reads for comprehension that NONE of the comments signed by Kalel Venkman were actually written by him.
I know Kalel in SL as well as in RL, and I know for a fact that he did not post any of the comments here that bear his name. The next time you read one of these threads and prepare to post a reply, keep in mind that anyone can sign any name to any comment.
Raideur Ng
Feb 2nd, 2008
Supercool, despite our former meeting and resulting issues, I have a legitimate question:
How do you implement communism in a capitalist game, or world for that matter? I realize you described manners to spread the ideas the USSR developed, but it may requires thinking outside the Bloc.
anon
Feb 2nd, 2008
>The Allies wouldn’t even bomb the train tracks that led to them
Had they done so, the Nazis would have just forced their captive Jews to repair them. Durr.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 2nd, 2008
It’s not quite possible to implement an ideal communist society on the platform, but you can do much of it. All it requires is running things equally and sharing things free of charge. Communism is, regardless of the truth of historical disagreement, in theory, just a system where the workers own the means of production and where everything is distributed equitably on the basis of need. We can do that economically by, for example, asking members to contribute whatever they can personally to the collective group for purposes of upkeep or expansion.
We can also abolish private property in the sense that everything on our land can be operated by the group in a democratic fashion.
And we can indeed run things democratically. As I said, a “soviet” is a worker’s council. It’s like a representative body, but we organize the whole group as one, and take votes. The council system also means that we can organize smaller ones as necessary; we have organized a council chosen by consensus of five members who are very active and they are given the power, according to our democratic group constitution, to enforce laws among the group.
So its about the sharing of all goods and resources at ones disposal with everyone else,the abolition of private property so far as possible with the platform, and the building of democratic institutions to run it all.
The portraits, the flags, and the colors are used to provide some flavor to it and make things interesting. Furthermore, the uniforms do this too and provide a replacement for group members whose clothing might otherwise look completely ridiculous in a communist society. The group isn’t about replicating the USSR; maybe parts of it, but it is about “soviet democracy” which did indeed exist, in some form, in the USSR and which we work on recreating in a fair sense.
Harlequin Salome
Feb 2nd, 2008
When the Soviet Union was first formed, Lenin privatized the farms. Millions died as a result, starving to death as sacrifices on the altar of Communism. THey were minimized and forgotten by the Russian Soviets, and all of you pathetic, bile-inducing, poorly educated children that want to emulate a failed system. They died of starvation, some turning to desperate measures such as eating the dead, similar to occurances in North Korea, another Communist Paradise.
Added to that, there was of course Mao Tse Tung’s Great Leap Forward. Another paragon of Communism (though again forgotten by you dumb children who wish to only idolize Russians because you want tow ear the neat little hats and call yourselves “Commissar”), Mao tried many reforms to shove the people into the modern age, like it or not. Such as having towns and villages melt their steel, to be shipped to factories and turned into raw materials for manufacturing, thus assisting China to enter into a new golden age.
Sadly, Mao knew jack shit about what he was talking about, leading to metal that was useless for forging… costing peasants their tools and utensils. Plus, the usual effect of a Communist ruler, which is widespread famine and death.
I’d say you need to do your homework, but your kind are basically the same. You want to claim to “help” others, with this pie in the sky concept of utopia, but you can only offer repatition of long-dead and disproved communist ideals. Logic isn’t what matters, what matters to you is saying you helped everyone, whether they like it or not. You want to feel like you know the true way, and the rest of us are just blind. Its an ego-trip, albeit one couched in Communist rhetoric.
Hmmm. Total ignorance of the facts… glorifying of those that don’t deserve it… defense of those that victimized others…
Shit, this guy is perfect. I give it under 6 months before he’s a regular reporter for the SLH.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 2nd, 2008
Communists don’t privatize farms. Furthermore, there is a giant picture of Mao up in the headquarters, though its down now since we’re remodeling. It will be back though.
As for famine and death, it’s nice how you say famine in a communist country is the cause of communism. India had a famine in the 20th century; was that the fault of democracy? Famine is caused by overpopulation and technological backwardness, not communism.
You got pretty defensive for nothing. I didn’t say awe want to conquer anyone. Just that we are trying something new. I didn’t call anyone blind, but I guess saying you have a different idea automatically means you’re insulting everyone else. Why is it that everyone on this board claims to have a monopoly on the “truth?”
Archie Lukas
Feb 2nd, 2008
Is that a penis I see growing on your forehead?
Nuff said
lolcommunists
Feb 3rd, 2008
Well, if you look at history, Nazis were much better for the German economy than Communists were for the Russian economy…
Nazis win! Fascism forever!
Just Me
Feb 4th, 2008
Quote “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” Unquote
Well, I “need” a house and a sex bed and I can’t afford them or afford any land. Please help. Thank you very much.
PS .. how can anyone take seriously someone who made the decision when signing up to use “Supercool” as his name? LOL
Artemis Fate
Feb 4th, 2008
@GreenLantern Excelsior posting under my name
I actually concede to your point that Kalel here might not be Kalel, since even though these are things I think Kalel would say or has said, it’s taken to the next step of extreme, which is why I was surprised at first and just thought he’d taken a nosedive off the deep end. While I’m still not entirely convinced that that is infact someone other than Kalel, I can’t really prove otherwise, nor think of a good reason why you’d even want to set up something like that, so I’m just going to stay out of it.
P.S.: I’m an awful writer, and thus don’t attack people for grammatical mistakes and errors unless it’s txtspk.
P.P.S.: I don’t like to bullet point things.
P.P.P.S: Bout is a fun word.
P.P.P.P.S: My points outside of Kalel being crazy still stand.
P.P.P.P.P.S: I like making these postscripts.
P.P.P.P.P.P.S: I’m doing science and I’m still alive.
Darken Spire
Feb 4th, 2008
This makes me weep. Millions were killed by soviet rule – not just from famine(brought about by typical communist mismanagement of resources) or war with the Germans, but by massive purges and persecution of their own people. This brutality and horror was not limited to the Soviet Union. In almost every instance, where communism has been tried, massive numbers of people were killed by their own government or starved to death as a direct result of government policies.
Communism, as a system and an ideology, was a miserable failure responsible for suffering on an unimaginable scale in the last 100 years. How many millions must die before people give up on this flawed utopian dream?
The handful of places that still cling to this system are horrible hell holes where people starve, have almost no freedom, and risk their very lives to escape. These communist nations build walls and have security forces devoted to keeping people from leaving. I think it is telling that those living under communism risk everything to escape it. If life is so wonderful there then why do they run away?
By contrast – western nations, with their free market capitalism, have so many people trying to get in that they must build walls to keep people out! Millions risk their lives to enter these nations every year. Food is so abundant in these nations that obesity is a serious problem, even among the poor! You have the freedom to live life as you choose in these nations. Heck, you can even build a commune on your property if you want.
We can get into a discussion of the finer points if you like, but the example above should be all the evidence needed for most people to realize that communism is simply a bad idea who’s time has come and gone.
For the reasons I list and for many more, I find the glorification of the old Soviet Union to be deplorable. But, because SL is based in the US where free speech is protected, these people can play communist and promote the idea all they want. They are exercising a freedom of ideology and belief that would not have been tolerated in the communist states they adore. They are free to do as they wish, just as I am free to decry it as despicable, tasteless, and indifferent to the millions slaughtered in the name of communism.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 4th, 2008
You link poverty and communism for some reason. The poorest nations of the world have no experience with communism – rather, they have experience with the capitalist imperialism of your precious Western nations. If life is so wonderful in them, why did they not leave the rest of the world alone? Why do they continue to bomb and kill across the world? If they are as wonderful and enlightened as you say, then perhaps they should keep to themselves and stop spreading their glorious system at the point of a gun.
The Soviet Union was not a horrible hell-hole; it was in the beginning, and leaders like Stalin tried to turn things around. Unfortunately, in doing so, his rightful attempts to bring his nation to strength were decried by their very beneficiaries – the Western nations, who, thanks to a strong Soviet Union, could leave the majority of the dying in World War II to the Russians. Had he not reformed his country, it would have been annihilated. Communism takes root in countries struck by capitalism’s imperialistic back hand – those countries are poor because of their previous administration.
Blaming communists for the immediate condition of their countries in the first few post-revolution years is ridiculous; they inherit a bad situation and must try to better it. Which is no easy task in vast nations like Russia and China, either, for example.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 4th, 2008
In addition, the poor in America are obese because their cheap food is garbage. Not because they simply have too much good food to eat. This problem is going global too, thanks to the export of “superior” Western culture and diet.
Darken Spire
Feb 5th, 2008
I link poverty and communism for good reason… Where is a rich communist nation? They don’t exist.
Why have so many nations given up on communism? China, Russia, Vietnam, etc… are all moving towards capitalist market economies and are experiencing great wealth creation as a result. They are abandoning the communist system because it doesn’t work.
Is North Korea poor because of what took place before the communists took over? The fighting stopped 55 years ago – the south recovered and became an economic powerhouse while people in the north rely on food and fuel shipments from the west to survive. The people are the same in the north and south, but communism dominates the north. Look at this photo from space: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm – For the most part, the North Koreans live in the dark.
Stalin was one of the biggest mass murders in history – he killed more people than even the Nazis. Most of the people he killed were his own countrymen. Yes, I’m sure the “beneficiaries” did decry his purges. Millions of people were killed or sent off to work camps in the east – many of them were loyal and committed no crime other than being marked for persecution by Stalin. Other soviet leaders may have been ideologically pure, but Stalin was simply a monster.
There are no food lines in Russia today – food is available where it once was scare under soviet rule only a coupled decades ago. Russia has adopted some market reforms and has benefited from it. Remember, it collapsed under communist rule, not capitalist.
You seem to believe that the west spreads by the force of arms…. The western allied forces returned the nations they liberated to their people after WW2. The soviets, by contrast, kept all the territories they captured during the war – forcing those nations to become satellite states – building walls to keep the people from leaving. Remember the Berlin wall? I seem to remember other wars of expansion of the communists – Tibet, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc… Left wing groups also launched attacks in western Europe between the 1960s and 1980s. However, I suspect nothing I could say would sway you from the belief that the current wars fought by the US and its allies are imperialist actions, so I will not even try.
Free market capitalism is not without problems to be sure, but the evidence suggest it provides the most good for the most people compared to other systems. Capitalism does not steal wealth – it creates wealth by unleashing man’s potential and improving efficiency.
Yes, the food for the poor may not be top quality, but by your own admission , it is cheap and plentiful.
Capitalism also allows for something very dear to me – freedom. I can choose where to live, what kind of house to live in, what car to drive, the type of job I want, etc, etc…. The centralized economic policies inherent in communism invariably lead to absolute control over people’s lives. They become totalitarian states with little to no personal freedom. This has occurred in every communist nation.
While I will assume you have read the works of Marx, I would like to suggest Friedrich Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom. He explains all of this far better than I could ever hope to.
Lastly, my comments should not be interpreted as anti-Russian. I have great respect and admiration for the Russian people. My comments are solely about communism as a economic and ideological system. Take my words for what they are worth.
Take care,
Darken
Penny
Feb 5th, 2008
Artemis is my new Lord & Saviour.
And I asked her in-world, and she confirmed the post accredited to her that began with “Whoever is forging my name is not doing a very good job of writing…” and was bullet pointed and defending Kal was in fact not her. Artemis rules.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 5th, 2008
“I link poverty and communism for good reason… Where is a rich communist nation? They don’t exist.”
Indeed. But you could link communism in poverty in the same way you could link the fact that communist countries traditionally faced overwhelming roadblocks from the West during the beginning of their development. China and Cuba, for example, were immediately embargoed by the United States and much of the West almost as soon as they went communist. Granted, countries should not use embargoes as excuses for poverty, but they do indeed make things harder for developing economies.
“Why have so many nations given up on communism? China, Russia, Vietnam, etc… are all moving towards capitalist market economies and are experiencing great wealth creation as a result. They are abandoning the communist system because it doesn’t work.”
None of them has abandoned it completely, except perhaps Russia, which is sliding into authoritarianism and whose second most popular party is the Communist Party of Russia. They have used market forces to a degree because – and I will agree with you here 100% – they DO create wealth much faster. But they do not equitably distribute it. This is our conflict.
“Is North Korea poor because of what took place before the communists took over? The fighting stopped 55 years ago – the south recovered and became an economic powerhouse while people in the north rely on food and fuel shipments from the west to survive. The people are the same in the north and south, but communism dominates the north. Look at this photo from space: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm – For the most part, the North Koreans live in the dark.”
Saying Kim-Jong Il represents communism or socialism because he claims to is like saying he supports democracy because he calls his country the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Yes, he’s crazy. We don’t defend him.
“Stalin was one of the biggest mass murders in history – he killed more people than even the Nazis. Most of the people he killed were his own countrymen. Yes, I’m sure the “beneficiaries” did decry his purges. Millions of people were killed or sent off to work camps in the east – many of them were loyal and committed no crime other than being marked for persecution by Stalin. Other soviet leaders may have been ideologically pure, but Stalin was simply a monster.”
We don’t universally defend Stalin either, but we do not agree with the ludicrous claims that he killed 70 million people that some float, though. We think he was a great leader for leading his country to industrialization and to victory against Nazism which would have simply not been possible for the world otherwise. Stalin took power in a country with almost no industry or infrastructure, and that had, from 1914 in World War I to 1924 after the end of the Civil War in Russia, gone through a decade of war that destroyed what little industry and infrastructure there was. When famine struck in the 20s and early 30s, it was hard to deal with because the Soviet Union was simply unable to effectively respond to much of anything at this time. It was weak, and Stalin turned it around through his guidance of the Soviet people.
I do not like to get into casualty debates, but after taking out the 20-30 million civilians killed by Nazi action, the people who died in a famine, and those genuine traitors who wanted to bring down the Soviet regime, there were perhaps 4 million people in Soviet prisons, and in a country of 200 million people, while this is a high number, America has 3 million prisoners for 300 million people. There were labor camps, indeed, but this is because Soviet philosophy ran under the idea that labor could be redemptive. If you think the Gulag was harsher, you’re right. It was probably too harsh. But if you’re going to neglect the rest of his achievements because Stalin was harsh on criminals and enemies of the regime, then that’s a bit unfair.
“There are no food lines in Russia today – food is available where it once was scare under soviet rule only a coupled decades ago. Russia has adopted some market reforms and has benefited from it. Remember, it collapsed under communist rule, not capitalist.”
The Soviet Union collapsed after Gorbachev’s market reforms. It also collapsed because it foolishly tried to compete with America’s military before it could compete with the size of America’s economy. Soviet leadership after Stalin went southward, or at least after Khrushchev. Russia’s economy may have benefited, but its society – thanks to having a higher rate of births than deaths, a growing problem with alcoholism, for example, is not.
“You seem to believe that the west spreads by the force of arms…. The western allied forces returned the nations they liberated to their people after WW2. The soviets, by contrast, kept all the territories they captured during the war – forcing those nations to become satellite states – building walls to keep the people from leaving. Remember the Berlin wall? I seem to remember other wars of expansion of the communists – Tibet, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc… Left wing groups also launched attacks in western Europe between the 1960s and 1980s. However, I suspect nothing I could say would sway you from the belief that the current wars fought by the US and its allies are imperialist actions, so I will not even try.”
All empires spread by force of arms. The Allies did indeed liberate their European conquests, but what of the rest of the world? Did the British, French and Americans liberate North Africa and Asia, or simply restore it to rule by West European empires rather than the empires of Germany or Japan?
Tibet was a war by China to reassert control it already had in another part of its country. Korea and Vietnam were attempts to reunite unjustly divided countries. Both were proxy wars as well. Afghanistan was under siege by Islamic extremists in 1979. Just like in 2001, when the U.S. went in. Both were justified. The Soviets did do a terrible job there, though.
Not all wars of the U.S. or West are bad. Many are just. But the capitalist societies have, especially in the colonial heyday of the 19th century, conquered most of the world through military force.
“Free market capitalism is not without problems to be sure, but the evidence suggest it provides the most good for the most people compared to other systems. Capitalism does not steal wealth – it creates wealth by unleashing man’s potential and improving efficiency.”
Here again, we disagree that it does the best for the most. It is efficient in a way and it is powerful in another. We’re talking about spreading the wealth among all rather than among a comparatively concentrated few.
“Yes, the food for the poor may not be top quality, but by your own admission , it is cheap and plentiful.”
McDonalds is cheap and plentiful, for example. It will kill you. Cheap and plentiful is not necessarily a good thing 100% of the time.
“Capitalism also allows for something very dear to me – freedom. I can choose where to live, what kind of house to live in, what car to drive, the type of job I want, etc, etc…. The centralized economic policies inherent in communism invariably lead to absolute control over people’s lives. They become totalitarian states with little to no personal freedom. This has occurred in every communist nation.”
Soviet democracy did not pan out as it should have; Stalin was no democrat. But, the idea of workers running industries democratically is no less valid as a result of what happened as is the idea of governments being run democratically just because many of them collapse, too. We believe you can combine the best of the Soviet Union with real, grassroots democracy too. But in a society where equality is important, there are indeed strict constraints of some kind to ensure this is the case.
“While I will assume you have read the works of Marx, I would like to suggest Friedrich Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom. He explains all of this far better than I could ever hope to. Lastly, my comments should not be interpreted as anti-Russian. I have great respect and admiration for the Russian people. My comments are solely about communism as a economic and ideological system. Take my words for what they are worth.
Take care,
Darken”
Comrade, I am indeed happy we could have a reasonable argument that did not involve you calling us kiddies or terrorists or griefers or what. We’re just people with different ideas. We don’t plan to force them on anyone, and nor could we if we chose to. I know you are not against Russia or anything; equally though, I hope you do not just see us as Russians, since we are not all Russian either. Either way, thank you for the discussion – whenever two people are challenged to defend their points, both people come out better for it.
Thank you,
Supercool Sautereau
Joe
Feb 5th, 2008
“Comrade, I am indeed happy we could have a reasonable argument that did not involve you calling us kiddies or terrorists or griefers or what. We’re just people with different ideas. We don’t plan to force them on anyone, and nor could we if we chose to. I know you are not against Russia or anything; equally though, I hope you do not just see us as Russians, since we are not all Russian either. Either way, thank you for the discussion – whenever two people are challenged to defend their points, both people come out better for it.”
We agree on something!
Yes, the reasoned exchange of ideas is truely beneficial for all.
Archie Lukas
Feb 5th, 2008
Thread with most comments of the year……
Enter SL Herald staff rubbing hands with glee,
the more controversial, the more people read and react.
Job done.