But Does That Make Me Gay?
by Alphaville Herald on 11/05/09 at 10:31 pm
by Lapis Philosophorum
Reading "The Wanderer's" Gor series, there is an overarching concept that truly bothers me. The Wanderer writes that he will not besexually using or abusing the female slaves of Gor because it is morethan likely that there could be some gay guy fapping in the background — an all too common concern for those considering cybersex.
Is the person who you are cybersexing the person you thinkthey are? Are you sure? Really?
You might think s/he's dreamy, but s/he could bereally ugly, a different religion, too old, too young, the wrong race, species, or even a Tory. Despite these frightful possibilities, many people are even more concerned with the gender of the typist behind the avatar, worrying that if the person onthe other side of the screen is not the same gender as presented it makes you something else – either forcedhomosexuality if the typist matches your gender or forcedheterosexuality if the person behind the avatar does not. Horrors!
Of course, this is one ofthose issues that being bisexual solves – but perhaps are not bi — now what?
Take a deep breath and think. For the personconcerned, how does any of this change things? Just because the Master youthink is sexy turns out to be a woman, it doesn't make you lesbian. Women real-life typists role-playing Gorean mastershas happened more frequently on Gor than the other way around. Take a deep breath and remember youwere attracted to the image of a man on your screen. Thata woman was writing his lines doesn't magically change who you are attracted to. This also appliesif you are attracted to someone who you think is a woman, but turns outto be a man — it doesn't make you less gay and magically straightbecause the person you thought you were in love with was a man.
Ihave heard comedians joke about how if they were a female escort andtheir client was a woman running the male avatar, that's the onlyheterosexual sex that they have.
The important point is that for each participant, the sexualexperience is different. If the man on the other side immerses himselfas a woman, then when he has cybersex with a man, its not gay sex, itsheterosexual sex, a woman having sex with a man. That immersed woman,when having sex with a woman, doesn't make it straight, it makes itlesbian.
Of course, if the man on the other side of the screen is justmanipulating the woman to have sex, then he isn't gay, he's a pornwriter/animator — if a man was gay in RL and wanted to havesex with men on SL, he would have sex with men on SL as a man.
This simpleconcept is largely ignored due to the scare of finding outthat your girlfriend is really a guy and that might make you gay –except it doesn't. There would be feelings of betrayal andhurt, but in the end, that person who you had cybersex with is areal as anything else on the Internet. Just because they might notmatch your gender expectations doesn't change you or your identity.
Satan
May 11th, 2009
Ugh! This is so frustrating because when I try to engage in a philosophical discussions in your comments section, only a few of many comments get through. But then you write philosophical articles and of course, I am compelled to respond because I rather enjoy this sort of thing.
I basically agree. But what is the cause of gayness and straightness? Is it biological or is it social conditioning? I realize that in many cases homosexuality is just hedonistic and about ‘forbidden sex’. Forbidden sex is kinky. Maybe it isn’t usually more complicated than that.
But what about love? I identify most with Plato’s writings on Eros. Love is not reproduction, so is it not reasonable to assume that people have the ability to overcome their conditioning under certain circumstances? Why is it that people are threatened by this idea?
It all goes back to my theories of the human mind. Your consciousness evolves when you adopt new perspectives (also called learning). Beings with the same cognitive faculties have the same potential. You decide the rate at which your consciousness evolves by your willingness to consider new perspectives logically, without prejudice. The human’s tendency to embrace non sequitur thought-processes limits evolution of the mind. This is tragic. Almost every single one of the problems we see in the world (excluding natural disasters such as disease,etc.) can be traced back to this tendency. You may say, ‘it’s just simulated rape’ but the implications of this sort of thinking are actually far-reaching. It used to be that an ignorant person acted ignorant. Now we have ignorant people acting like they’re intelligent, tricking hordes of other imbeciles into following their lead. This is a perfect example of why this sort of thing is detrimental to the world. When idiots are intelligent enough to trick others into following them, their stupid ideas spread. Not only do they spread but they evolve and people extrapolate more bullshit from bullshit and then it eventually impacts the rest of us. It isn’t just Second Life. This is a problem everywhere. I’m going to make being ignorant unpleasant however, by continuing to ridicule it wherever I find it. This is part of the natural order that keeps the kooks in check to a degree. Tolerating ignorance is the same thing is fostering it. Ignorance is willful and it is insidious.
For more information on the philosophy of love, however, I suggest this link: http://www.iep.utm.edu/l/love.htm
smarmy
May 11th, 2009
Did reading this make me gay?
…
…
kidding!
Susan Tsuki
May 12th, 2009
It’s a little known fact that the original Turing Test as described by Alan Turing wasn’t supposed to be for discerning between a human and an artificially intelligent computer, rather it was described as trying to tell a man from a woman over a teletype.
Rabid Barkley
May 12th, 2009
While this might not work for all, I’ve constructed a list of tips on avoiding such situations:
1) Don’t e-hump, fag.
2)
3)
Whiteboy
May 12th, 2009
If yu look at it another way, its like if you fap away at some amazing 3D digitally created pic of a woman, you might turn gay because the artist created it was a MAN!!!
Oh the moral dilemmas of stupid!
Adric Antfarm
May 12th, 2009
yes
you are gay
a/s/l?
The Grown Ups
May 12th, 2009
I couldn’t read much of the article because it’s horrible, but three questions immediately came to mind.
1) did the herald really pay for this?
2) how is this different from the article a couple of days ago about second life women being men?
3) does the herald edit for grammar anymore? (“its not gay sex, its heterosexual sex” seems to be missing some apostrophes)
The Wanderer
May 12th, 2009
Glad this came up (so to speak) because it did bother me that a guy–gay or straight–might be that hot little kajira, and the Goreans do not seem keen on voice (which I use regularly otherwise).
As for fapping….I guess it would be easier to fap about a woman who is a guy IRL if 1) she’s not playing my slave and 2) I were really too drunk or stoned to care.
Those would increase the coefficient of fappitude.
The author of I, Avatar, who had a RL female friend who became a kajira (and got stalked IRL by some of the other RPers) claims that she (and he, when he became a kajira too) found that a number of kajirae they met are submissive gay men IRL.
I don’t feel any more gay after writing about Gor, but who knows what will happen…maybe GOR MAKES YOU GAY! Now that would get the Religious Reich all over SL.
If I become gay from all this Gorean experience, I’ll come out it here, along with my success of making my house look less like a swamp as I redecorate tastefully (I admire gay men’s ability to find just the right decor).
Meanwhile, if it makes you happy…just don’t ask / don’t tell as you fap away
Chav
May 12th, 2009
“The Wanderer writes that he will not be sexually using or abusing the female slaves of Gor because it is more than likely that there could be some gay guy fapping in the background — an all too common concern for those considering cybersex.”
Nice to see he has his priorities right. Accidental homosexuality is obviously far more disturbing than supporting sexual slavery and helping a woman belittle herself.
Ajax
May 12th, 2009
There is always the stooges test. Take them to a location that is playing 3 stooges shorts. If they laugh, male. If they say how stupid it is, female. This test is proven to be 100% accurate by the science lab of Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
LOL
May 12th, 2009
I actually vometed in my mouth a little while reading this article
Alyx Stoklitsky
May 13th, 2009
ITT SLfags come to the shocking revelation that people may be nothing like their avatars.
Thank you, Captain Obvious!
Jessica Holyoke
May 13th, 2009
Its interesting to note Chav’s comment. One being taking part in a roleplaying world with slave girls means supporting sexual slavery. I wish someone here would write an article about how a game is not the same as real life.
The other being did you notice how she said you’re not helping *women* belittle themselves?
Scylla Rhiadra
May 14th, 2009
Chav’s comments are actually very much to the point, although she might have elaborated more on what precisely she meant. There are all sorts of ways of “supporting sexual slavery” that don’t involve believing that a simulation is real. One of these involves acceding to a representation of women in this kind of submissive role. I hate to draw the obvious parallel, but if I took part in a simulation that involved the virtual slaughter of Jews, would this not say something about my own values? Would it not be communicating an utterly obscene message? After all, it’s not “real,” is it? The comparison I make is not as far fetched as some of you might wish to believe: the documented incidence of violence against women in the USA alone on a yearly basis is staggering. Undocumented are the vast majority of cases where the repression of women is more subtle, or doesn’t lead to criminal investigation.
As for Jessica’s comment about a “woman” being belittled, I will agree. Someone who is taking part in this sort of thing, in whatever role, is indeed belittling all women. A woman participating may have very real personality issues that are being expressed this way; a male player, whether simming a man or a woman, has much less excuse.
Finally, Chav’s point about the inversion of priorities here struck a nerve. I am reminded of the way that SL’s new classification scheme will apparently make it perfectly allowable to simulate killing someone in a “mature” zone, but not making love to them. As a culture, we really get things ass-backwards sometimes, don’t we?
Corona Anatine
May 14th, 2009
two points
first
it is not possible for anyone to ‘become gay’(or lesbian)
homosexuality and transexuality are a result of variation in brain structure / chemistry as embryoes
a hetro male might perform 100000 homosexual activities and at the end they would still be a hetro male
likewise a gay man might have sex with 1000000 women and at the end would still be gay
second
a hetro male inviting another male round to share the watching of a porn video is basically no different to two males having diff gendered avatars and playing on a pose ball
that both are male does not matter
they are both getting enjoyment from veiwing a male and a female performing sexaul activities
what matters is the mind behind the avatar
consider a sitaution in which a two male to female transexauls indulged in pose ball manipulation
one as male the other as female
now given both in RL have female brains in male bodies
does that make the activity they are performing
hetro bi gay or lesbian
in RL bodies are either male or female
brains however are a continuum of grey not B/W
in RL people can be judged by the phyisical sex of the body
however in SL it is the brain behind the avatar that matters
if the avatar comes over as female in their personality then that person is female brained
and in SL that is the only part of anyone that you are connected with
at least til they day technology allows humans to electronically send sperm or other body fluids over the internet
Jessica Holyoke
May 14th, 2009
oh my head….Gor turns on gender politics, but so does a lot of other things. Why not instead of being upset about a fantasy role playing game based on a series of novels that are decidedly anti-feminist but arguably not anti-woman, why not complain about real slavery? Or how about television shows that glorify how many children you can give birth to? Or how about how the US and its allies are sending more troops to Afghanistan to support a government that is decidedly anti-woman? Or even making sure that women have access to equal pay without crippling business or when a woman is up for a Supreme Court nomination the fact that she got on that nomination list by not having a family when you see Chief Justice Roberts being nominated surrounded by his family? Why don’t you go complain about something that actually matters to reality instead of arguing how some video game based on a series of novels has the capacity to do something outside of the bounds of anything a work of fiction can really do?
And I truly don’t get how a woman taking part in Gor has more right to it than a man taking part in Gor. Considering this is Second Life and a woman can take on..oh..EVERY ROLE, saying if she chooses to do so as a Master or a Mistress, that makes it ok, and if she does it as a slave girl, or less likely slave boy, its ok. But if a man were to do the same thing in any of those roles, then its not? How is that not sexism in and of itself?
If you find the practice abhorrent, then it doesn’t matter if the person holding the whip or is under it is a woman. I truly believe that the people arguing that this is sexual slavery had no issue when it was the OWK being written about.
Satan
May 14th, 2009
@Corona Anatine
Show me proof that homosexuality is biological. Argue with facts and logic. At the moment there is nothing that proves this, hence you are drawing conclusions based on misinformation, which is not rational.
“Why not instead of being upset about a fantasy role playing game based on a series of novels that are decidedly anti-feminist but arguably not anti-woman, why not complain about real slavery?”
This is annoying. It is rationalizing. “It’s not a big deal,” you say. Well, it is. Wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to dress it up. Tolerating it is just like fostering it. If you want to understand why it is wrong, you should google ‘the logic doctrine’, which is a pretty extensive thesis that I have been working on developing. It isn’t complete yet, but it is getting there.
Scylla Rhiadra
May 15th, 2009
The women and men who are most concerned about issues surrounding representation of gender in Second Life are not, it should be noted, “role playing” feminism: almost all of these that I know, whether they consciously call themselves “feminists” or not, are, I assure you Jessica, very much engaged with the RL issues you enumerate, and many more besides. They are educators, activists, counselors, or simply deeply-engaged private citizens. Our interest in feminist issues in SL is not a leisure-time activity or a one-off; it is very much a part of a continuum of engagement that originates in RL.
With regard to the kind of cultural and social influence that novels, and by extension, video games and RP can have, I could quote over 2,000 years of rhetorical and literary theory and criticism to back up my case that they DO have a cultural impact, or I could cite modern sociological studies, and most especially those concerning the impact of pornography, to demonstrate that the divide between RL and “fictions” of any sort is not quite as clear cut and unproblematic as you suggest. There is an enormous body of literature on the subject, and the additional element of role play makes this division even murkier than you imply. There is a reason why educators and psychiatrists, to name but two professions, use role play as a means of instilling ideas and behaviors in “real life.”
I was not, by the way, suggesting that a woman has more “right” to Gorean role play than a man. Personally, I find expressions of the dom / sub dynamic deeply troubling and problematic, regardless of who is holding the whip. What I was referring to is the documented reality that many women who have been the victims of real life abuse, physical or emotional, are more prone to accept a submissive role in other spheres; their behaviour in RP is really a symptom of their victimization, rather than a conscious and “free” choice.
Satan
May 15th, 2009
Um Jessica, NEWSFLASH: Reality IS a work of fiction. It is all one quantum field. Reality doesn’t even exist as humans interpret it. This Quantum field that is reality (I call this logic, the field is basically the natural laws that govern reality) is influenced by thoughts to a degree because humans have to interpret this sole reality and our interpretations effect it because they govern our actions. I think, therefore I am. We are all connected and whether you like it or not, bullshit effects everyone so fuck you. I am really getting tired of my comments being deleted because the moderator apparently doesn’t agree with them or whatever. If you’re going to allow a debate to take place then do so or else don’t allow it to take place at all. Stop with the fucking double standard.
Jessica Holyoke
May 15th, 2009
Scylla,
I was a bit harsh. Perhaps you are right that fighting a video game is just one aspect of a spectrum. But I am going to ask for your documentation that women who are abused in RL are more prone to take part in a submissive role or that pornography is as problematic as you say. 3 on each topic would suffice.
Satan,
First, just to be clear, I have no control over whether your comments get posted or not. Second, reality is fiction? That’s not a response. That’s just some weird philosophy sound bite to make you sound smart. I am vaguely familiar with a concept of how people perceive and filter the world and how that affects their reality and it sounds like you are tracking along that point, but expressing it in off beat ways.
The thing that pisses me off about this argument against Gor and the argument against fuck you hedonism is that this is a call for censorship and authoritarianism. Maybe you aren’t calling for the books to be banned. Maybe you aren’t saying that no one should engage in certain role play on Second Life, Gorean, sexual or otherwise, because you find the practice disgusting or degrading. Maybe you aren’t saying that people should be prevented from being in a dominant submissive lifestyle because you think that a submissive person can’t make that decision for themselves and the dominant person is an abuser.
But it sure sounds like it.
Scylla Rhiadra
May 15th, 2009
LOL, Jessica. I’ve never been asked to contribute a bibliography to a blog comment before. I have no idea if the moderator will allow this, but here you go . .
There is, as I say, a HUGE body of literature on porn and harm, but here is a teeny sampling of scholarly articles available online. Finding information on the relationship between “abuse” and submissive behaviour in general is, in a sense, too easy: almost any article or book on the subject of the effects of abuse will deal with it to some extent or another. You’ll certainly find it discussed in the sources below. Finding online *scholarly* (i.e., credible) materials that relate specifically to abuse and submissive behaviour in RPGs is more problematic; that’s a pretty narrow field, and I’m not sure I can find anything publicly available online, but, with a bit more time, I am sure I can do a literature search in scholarly sources. I will, however, draw your attention to the last item I list below.
One point in passing: your labeling of those who take issue with representations of sexual violence as “authoritarian” or “pro-censorship” is VERY problematic, but I don’t think I have space to address it here …
Russell, Diana. “Against Pornography: The Evidence of Harm.” Seventh International Congress of Women.
http://www.skk.uit.no/WW99/papers/Russell_Diana_E_H.pdf
Research On Pornography. University of Minnesota
http://www.skk.uit.no/WW99/papers/Russell_Diana_E_H.pdf
A brief but very well-documented summary of effects of porn; it includes some discussion of the notion that porn can “undermine some potential victims’ abilities to avoid or resist rape” (i.e., it promotes submissive behaviour that can enable further abuse).
“A Study Proves That Media Can Subtly Induce Society To Justify Violence Against Women.” Medical News Today.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/143012.php
An abstract of a scholarly article that points to the influence of “media” beyond narrowly-defined forms of pornography.
Catherine Itzin, Ann Taket, and Liz Kelly. “The evidence of harm to adults relating to exposure to extreme pornographic material: a rapid evidence assessment (REA)”
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/280907a.pdf
An excellent and very well documented overview of research on the effects of “extreme” pornography.
Bryant, Colleen. “Adolescence, Pornography, and Harm” Trends and Issues in Crime and Criminal Justice
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi368t.html
Focussing on adolescent exposure to pornography, but worthwhile as an overview.
Liz Hall, Liz Hall Consul, and Siobhan Lloyd, “Surviving child sexual abuse” http://books.google.ca/books?id=aK2-14HdzgQC&printsec=frontcover
A book length study that addresses as part of its overview the uses of role play in general with victims of abuse
BDSM or Abuse
http://resourcewoman.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/BDSM_or_Abuse.7184218.doc
A very interesting, and largely pro-BDSM piece that differentiates between “true” BDSM play and sexual abuse. One of its interesting points is that “Some submissives have been abused as children and have seen their mothers abused. It is so very important for submissive women involved in ‘lifestyle’ relationships to be aware of the difference between BDSM D/s and abuse.”
Corona Anatine
May 15th, 2009
will this do to start with Satan ?
Dörner G, Poppe I, Stahl F, Kölzsch J, Uebelhack R.
Institute of Experimental Endocrinology, Humboldt University Medical School (Charité), Berlin, Germany.
Sexual brain organization is dependent on sex hormone and neurotransmitter levels occurring during critical developmental periods. The higher the androgen levels during brain organization, caused by genetic and/or environmental factors, the higher is the biological predisposition to bi- and homosexuality or even transsexualism in females and the lower it is in males. Adrenal androgen excess, leading to heterotypical sexual orientation and/or gender role behavior in genetic females, can be caused by 21-hydroxylase deficiency, especially when associated with prenatal stress. The cortisol (F) precursor 21-deoxycortisol (21-DOF) was found to be significantly increased after ACTH stimulation in homosexual as compared to heterosexual females. 21-DOF was increased significantly before and even highly significantly after ACTH stimulation in female-to-male transsexuals. In view of these data, heterozygous and homozygous forms, respectively, of 21-hydroxylase deficiency represent a genetic predisposition to androgen-dependent development of homosexuality and transsexualism in females. Testicular androgen deficiency in prenatal life, giving rise to heterotypical sexual orientation and/or gender role behavior in genetic males, may be induced by prenatal stress and/or maternal or fetal genetic alterations. Most recently, in mothers of homosexual men–following ACTH stimulation–a significantly increased prevalence of high 21-DOF plasma values and 21-DOF/F ratios was found, which surpassed the mean + 1 SD level of heterosexual control women. In homosexual men as well–following ACTH stimulation–most of the 21-DOF plasma values and 21-DOF/F ratios also surpassed the mean + 1 SD level of heterosexual men. In only one out of 9 homosexual males, neither in his blood nor in that of his mother increased 21-DOF values and 21-DOF/F ratios were found after ACTH stimulation. In this homosexual man, however, the plasma dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) values and the DHEA-S/1000 x A (A = androstenedione) ratio were increased before and after ACTH stimulation. Furthermore, highly significantly increased basal plasma levels of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate were found in male-to-female transsexuals as compared to normal males, suggesting partial 3 beta-ol hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency to be a predisposing factor for the development of male-to-female transsexualism.
Corona Anatine
May 15th, 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1778227
Corona Anatine
May 15th, 2009
Can ANY relationship be truly claimed as not involving the interplay of submissive/dominant status within the relationship?
I would imagine that were a relationship not to have such interplay of status it would seem profoundly weird
the question is not whether one person is dominant – but how far the imbalance reaches
scylla has a very good point
What I was referring to is the documented reality that many women who have been the victims of real life abuse, physical or emotional, are more prone to accept a submissive role in other spheres; their behaviour in RP is really a symptom of their victimization, rather than a conscious and “free” choice.
however that is a problem of modern society ( and patriachal religions / agencies operating to modify the socio-cultural paradigm in which we exist ( or dont quantumally exist in if you are Satan)
SL Gor is only a symptom of this and not its cause
should we be forcing women not to take the part of gorean slaves in SL?
Corona Anatine
May 15th, 2009
ps Satan does not really exist he is just a figment of your imagination
and as he claims not to exist all of his comments are thus halluncinatory and can therefore be ignored
Satan
May 15th, 2009
Jessica, it is Quantum physics.
Sigmund Leominster
May 15th, 2009
@ Satan
“Reality IS a work of fiction.” Hmm, and a few days back when I commented on UNreality being a work of fiction you seemed to find that metaphor unappealing
At that funky quantum level, the notion of uncertainty and imprecision is sure quirky, but most folks find that reality is much more “real” than you might think. Granted those little quanta may be wriggling around chaotically, but I can pretty much guarantee that if I were to take a large baseball bat to your head, I could demonstrate empirically how non-fictional reality is!
Quod erat demonstrandum, I think.
Satan
May 15th, 2009
It isn’t a weird philosophy look here:
Logic is a set of rules that govern time and space. I use the term logic, but in actuality it is the collective consciousness that is the Quantum field that is god. This consciousness contains the very parameters that define existence as you know it. Everything is a part of this field, including you. Together, those parameters make up on single entity.
Einstein theorized that space and time are intertwined and that matter is inseparable from an ever-present quantum energy field and this is the sole reality underlying all appearances. This theory challenged the basic assumptions about the universe and what it contained.
This scientific discovery of Non-Locality, the wave/particle duality, meant that everything is joined or connected together. Space and time is composed of the same essence as matter. Bohm found this to be a conscious atomic sea and extending out from this sub-atomic reality, all of material creation may also be said to be conscious. Since all matter and events interact with each other, time (past, present, future) along with space and distance, all is relative to the observer and operate as one under the law of Non-Locality.
“A principle related to nonlocality is called Bell’s Theorem. This is a quantum physics law that says that once connected, objects affect one another forever no matter where they are. Following the principle of Bell’s Theorem,…an invisible stream of energy will always connect any two objects that have been connected in any way in the past.”
This meant that everything is connected to everything else and that physical reality is BOTH waves and a particles. This model birthed the “holographic universe” idea, the powerful conscious energy that the whole can invariably be found in the tiniest particles: an atom of a blade of grass to the most distance galaxies. The building blocks of atoms are merely, “parcels of compressed energy, packed and patterned according to certain mathematical formulae.”
Matter and Energy are two poles of the same unity. Shamans and Mystics call this Oneness or Interconnectedness.
George Bernhard Rieman, who was the first to lay the mathematical foundation of geometries in higher dimensional space, birthed the idea of a “simultaneous 4th Dimension”. He claimed universes are “completely self-consistent and obey their own logic.” He tried to discover “the unity of all physical laws” which appear simple when expressed in higher dimensional space. In this process, he redefined Euclidean geometry. (Prt of this text From: http://www.starstuffs.com/physcon2/science.html)
The real world doesn’t look anything like what you see. There are no separate objects or entities. I am tired of watching people justify ignorance at the expense of everyone else. If people stopped trying to say ‘it isn’t a big deal’ then the world would be a much better place. It is shit because we’re making it that way.
I kept using the term irrationality, not sure why so I blame it on the pain meds, but I meant ignorance. Ignorance is evil. It is unawareness of the the natural laws of existence. These natural laws form a collective consciousness that is god. The meaning of life is to learn and teach. If people acted as though knowledge is supreme (and it is) then the world could be a utopia. I really wish people would abandon their pretty perspectives that are based on how the world should be, including all major religions which help to perpetuate the evils that they purport to oppose. Ignoring our problems doesn’t make them go away. It makes them worse. I wish I could find a meaningful way to convey this message to the world before I die. I haven’t been feeling all that well lately and I’m really passionate about this. I feel rushed to try and communicate it in a way that others will understand.
Satan
May 15th, 2009
@Sigmund
My whole point is that ignorance is evil. The whole ‘it isn’t a big deal argument’ is evil because it is ignorant. People who are perpetuating this ignorance clearly have no idea that they are impacting our world. The unreality or ‘thoughts’ are just as real as our actions and they impact the human existence.
It’s good that you apparently have a limited understanding of quantum physics but you’re still obviously too ignorant to get it.
I’m not advocating taking away people’s free will. That would defeat the whole purpose of life, which is to learn and overcome the human ignorance. The purpose is enlightenment so that we may discard our interpretation of the SOLE reality because reality isn’t subject to our interpretation. We bend to the will of the universe, not vice versa. I am trying to help others find meaning in THEIR lives because like it or not, we’re all part of the same entity and EVERY SINGLE thing we do and think effects everyone else.
My whole point, Sigmund, is that physical reality is just a poor interpretation of the quantum reality. Anyone who has any actual knowledge of actual REALITY is very much aware of the difference between good and evil, why good is good and why evil is evil.
Your own ignorance is the source of your misery. If you don’t like being called stupid then stop being a fucktard and get with the program. I still can’t fathom how someone like you can talk like you’re actually intelligent but act as thought you have no real understanding of the things that you say. I really can’t stand people like you at all because you are a part of the problem and whenever someone explains it to you instead of being objective, you get e-pissed and pursue an e-vendetta. The fact that you are stupid is NOT beyond your control.
>Hmm, and a few days back when I commented on UNreality being a work of fiction you seemed to find that metaphor unappealing
If reality and unreality are all works of fiction, then are they not equally real? I rest my case.
God you’re so STUPID that it amazes me every single time.
Sigmund Leominster
May 15th, 2009
I’m not going to gainsay anything you said about the notions of quantum strangeness, nor the quantum level weirdness where waves/particles can be in two places at once. I’m no physicist and won’t even pretend to know more than anyone else who’s picked up a book or two.
But the stance that there is some kind of “cosmic connection” between us all at that quantum level may have no impact whatsoever on how we behave and interact at the macro level of “real life” – which is shorthand for the day-to-day experiences we all have. In the everyday world above the quanta, there ARE objects that we can all experience in similar ways. I apologize for using the metaphor of the baseball bat again, but not only can I demonstrate its reality by the effect it will have on, say, an egg, but everyone else can.
I can hand the bat to any number of people and have them perform the same action of bringing it down in an arc against an egg and each time see the hapless ovum end up smeared across the floor. The bat’s existence is testable, repeatable, and open to falsification at any time. If just ONE person fails to smash the egg, we can then re-evaluate our definition of how “real” the bat it.
None of this depends on what is going on at the quantum level. And although the quantum math may suggest that it is potentially possible for the bat to pass right through the egg, building a life on those odds would be devastatingly bad. I understand that theoretically, I could run through a wall if all the particles/waves in my body just happened to shift in opposition to those of the wall. However, I doubt anyone is going to try to test this by banging their head repeatedly against it.
I suggest that there IS a reality out there that exists independent of me, although I am OK with the notion that how we DESCRIBE is may be prescribed by the way our senses interpret it. For instance, I don’t image a bee “sees” a baseball bat in the same way I do, nor does it “understand” the bat in the way I do, but should it happen to fly between the bat and my aforementioned egg, it will certainly have an “experience” of the bat that doesn’t depend on my perceptions or constructs
And despite what you might think, I can appreciate your frustration about feeling “rushed” to explain what you are thinking – this sort of stuff is very hard to both grasp and explain; which is why I am NOT a physicist!
We
May 15th, 2009
Satan,
Fire up the bong and smoke more…you’re on a roll…
Satan
May 15th, 2009
>But the stance that there is some kind of “cosmic connection” between us all at that quantum level may have no impact whatsoever on how we behave and interact at the macro level of “real life” – which is shorthand for the day-to-day experiences we all have. In the everyday world above the quanta, there ARE objects that we can all experience in similar ways. I apologize for using the metaphor of the baseball bat again, but not only can I demonstrate its reality by the effect it will have on, say, an egg, but everyone else can.
Wrong. We see a similar reality because we are all part of the quantum field. We are not actually separate beings. We are one. This is why reality is relative to the observer as Einstein himself said, but physical realities are similar because we are all connected and our physical realities interact with each other. They aren’t reality at all though. Quantum level has EVERY impact on what happens in the physical reality. The baseball bat isn’t real and the egg isn’t real. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed and matter is made of energy. So is time and space. We are in a timeless universe which allows for free will and determinism. Quantum physics PROVES all of this. Study for yourself to see.
Scylla Rhiadra
May 16th, 2009
Jessica, I prepared and tried to post here a lovely little bibliography of sources pertinent to our discussion about pornography and abuse, but the moderator of this page seems to have declined the opportunity to publish it. It would appear that it is ok to write “Don’t e-hump fag” in a comment to a Herald story, but that anything approaching a citation of actually scholarly evidence of an assertion is a nonstarter. Go figure, eh?
Corona Anatine
May 16th, 2009
That would defeat the whole purpose of life, which is to learn and overcome the human ignorance. The purpose is enlightenment so that we may discard our interpretation of the SOLE reality because reality isn’t subject to our interpretation.
no
that is what you have made the purpose of YOUR life
and it is a very good goal to pursue
however it is not everyones choice of their purpose in life
perhaps it should be everyones
but unless they choose it for themselves you have no right to state that it is THE purpose of life, only that it is YOUR purpose you have chosen for yourself
and returning to Gor
from what i understand of that world all humans have to submit to the priest kings decisions or be blasted by divine fire
it is interesting that the way Norman envisaged that a society which enslaved women would work is by having the threat of divine retribution hanging over them
the parallels with a well known RL religion are clear
Corona Anatine
May 16th, 2009
re
about the notions of quantum strangeness, nor the quantum level weirdness where waves/particles can be in two places at once
this sort of stuff is very hard to both grasp and explain;
???? explaining is hard yes but understanding it is easy
all you have to do is shape the quantum models in your mind
perhaps having an intelligence that is one standard deviation higher than gay men helps (themselves one standard deviation higher in intelligence than hetro males)
corona Anatine
May 16th, 2009
Satan says
I kept using the term irrationality, …, but I meant ignorance. Ignorance is evil. It is unawareness of the the natural laws of existence. These natural laws form a collective consciousness that is god.
‘God’ thus is his agenda laid bare – he wants you to follow his irrational belief in a non existent entity
The meaning of life is to learn and teach.
for some – not all – unless you make it a totalitarian dictate that all must conform to this goal
If people acted as though knowledge is supreme (and it is) then the world could be a utopia.
this indicates that your knowledge is not supreme
utopia for whom ? presumably people like yourself
for others it would be a living hell
however small that minority might be – for them it would not be utopia
I really wish people would abandon their pretty perspectives that are based on how the world should be, including all major religions which help to perpetuate the evils that they purport to oppose.
yet you claim to believe in ‘god’ so your utopia would just replace the curent religions with a new one that is no more truthful than the old
Ignoring our problems doesn’t make them go away. It makes them worse. I wish I could find a meaningful way to convey this message to the world before I die. I haven’t been feeling all that well lately and I’m really passionate about this. I feel rushed to try and communicate it in a way that others will understand.
spoken like a true prophet
corona Anatine
May 16th, 2009
If people acted as though ‘*’ is supreme (and it is) then the world could be a utopia.
[* insert your preferred word from following list or add your own
intelligence / Allah / God / Jews / women / Qu’ran / men / Gays / drink / white people / drugs / children / Muslims / trees / lesbians / bible / wicca / aliens /german master race etc
yes a perfect world would be a utopia and wonderful to live in
coming any day now – just dont hold your breath waiting
the one thing preventing it is probably -human nature
get rid of humans (or the ‘wrong’ sort of humans perhaps) and maybe utopia would follow
Jessica Holyoke
May 16th, 2009
You can always e-mail them to me or drop a notecard in world.
Jessica Holyoke
May 16th, 2009
I read most of the links you provided, except for the duplicates and the Surviving Child abuse.
Dr. Russell’s speech; I remember seeing that Hustler cover with a woman in the meat grinder before and I remember hearing that there was some stupid symbolism to that. And the Playboy cartoons on display bothered me. But at the same time, my college days included watching porn with guys and girls. And Dr. Russell’s speech did define porn as having a clothed male and a naked female, but I’m not sure if I would include the opposite situation or not.
The Medical News Today report; That seemed to blame the Press for helping sway people if a woman deserved it or not if she was rape or abused. If the reporter said that the abuser was drunk or if the abuser was made out to be a jilted lover for example. And it misses something important, at least to me, about Gor and separately rape content in general. It is my unstudied, but founded in experience belief, that the participants can make the distinction between reality and fantasy that the game they take part in does not become their reality.
The Itzin REA; Because it was a meta analysis that included other studies that weren’t cited to in a way to review them, its harder to critique. And the study was for the effects of extreme pornography like bestiality and necrophilia, although I did notice that there was no effect found for liking necrophilic porn.
The Bryant piece; This didn’t detail their methodology in detail, but it did raise both whether pornography alone, without looking at the rest of the media and peer pressure, could negatively effect an adolescent simply by changing how they interacted sexually with others. And that has been anecdotally shown that men who regularly view porn, instead of becoming rape machines, become uninterested and uninvolved with women because their standards are too high.
The final BDSM piece was very interesting and thank you for that.
The Bryant piece though, did remind me about the nature of the debate. People get very heated over this because its highly personal to all involved. From my view, if you are condemning it, the pornography, Gor, what have you, you are in a sense condemning my choices, how I grew up and myself.
Satan
May 16th, 2009
“but unless they choose it for themselves you have no right to state that it is THE purpose of life, only that it is YOUR purpose you have chosen for yourself”
Then why does Quantum physics prove that life only exists because of the phenomenon that is free will? Reality is observed into existence. You cannot dispute this because it has been proven. Even our laws of physics have been observed into existence. We have already been able to observe single moleculs in two places at the exact same time.
Check out this information:
http://www.holosforum.org/v4n1/rosenblum.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles004.html
“‘God’ thus is his agenda laid bare – he wants you to follow his irrational belief in a non existent entity”
You deny the existence of the quantum field? You cannot because science has proven it’s existence and that it is also conscious. Therefore, god exists and god is the quantum field. The philosophical implications of Quantum physics are absolutely astounding. There is no other conclusion that can be drawn.
“this indicates that your knowledge is not supreme”
Right, because I could not be human if it were. Since I have free will I am a part of the physical reality and not completely aware of the true nature of my existence.
“the one thing preventing it is probably -human nature
get rid of humans (or the ‘wrong’ sort of humans perhaps) and maybe utopia would follow”
Actually it is all humans. You cannot force others to become unified (enlightened). Destroying the physical reality of the human race would not obliterate the phenomenon that is free will hence that physical reality cannot be destroyed. It must destroy itself.
It sounds completely insane but it’s true. Don’t take my word for it, study for yourself and attempt to draw other conclusions. I have tried and I cannot.
“yet you claim to believe in ‘god’ so your utopia would just replace the curent religions with a new one that is no more truthful than the old”
The problem with the old ones is that they conflict with each other and encourage free will and individuality. They actually help to perpetuate the physical reality.
Satan
May 16th, 2009
>Fire up the bong and smoke more…you’re on a roll…
lol we are actually in agreement. The exact reason why most quantum physicists do not speak of the philosophical implications of quantum physics is because it sounds completely insane. Humanity is insane. Is it not insane to construct our own realities, ignoring the SOLE underlying reality? The very essence of life is subjectivity. Simply put: Life is a result of a universe in conflict with itself. Exactly how or why that conflict came to exist is beyond the comprehension of the human intelligence. Quantum physics blurs the lines between religion, philosophy, and science.
If someone blew up the world, for example, doing so would not actually extinguish free will and hence physical reality would be reconstructed and since reality is relative to the observer but all our physical realities interact with each other because we are all one entity, it would make it appear as though we are all separate beings inside of one universe. This is reincarnation. When a person who dies is not enlightened, another physical reality is observed into existence. Someone who is truly aware of the nature of their existence ceases to exist in physical reality and they do not come back. Sadly, this is very rare.
The very moment that I fully understood quantum physics was a very profound religious experience for me, and this is coming from a guy who has been viciously opposed to the idea of god for his entire life because we could not prove the existence of such a being. When it truly dawned on me, time stood still and reality as I have known it appeared to be slipping away. It was actually very frightening. At that very moment I knew that I could choose simply not to exist in physical reality. It was frightening because my subjectivity indicated that I might actually be going insane. That attachment to my subjectivity, my individuality, which is the very essence of life is the very reason that you are reading this post. It is the reason that I exist in physical reality.
The philosophy of quantum physics IS Buddhism. It is astounding that the actual philosophy existed before scientists discovered quantum physics. The discovery of quantum physics actually signals the end of life.
Satan
May 16th, 2009
What would you say if I could get a world-renown quantum physicist to comment here and actually verify everything that I have said?
You could simply copy-paste what I have written and send it to him:
http://www.physik.uni-ulm.de/quan/en/members/schleich.html
He will be unable to deny it because science has proven that it is true. For him, denying it would be no different than your denying the physical reality for you.
Sigmund Leominster
May 16th, 2009
@ Satan
Dude, I wish you could get past the personal attack stuff. Phrases such as “I really can’t stand people like you” and “God, you are so stupid” add nothing to the credibility or testability of your hypotheses. It simply weakens your arguments when your “discussions” revert to such petty name calling and you end up looking rather foolish. You seem to flip-flop between wanting to appear the rational intellectual and the raving bigot. Try to stay focused, man!
You do make some interesting points but they are tainted by your presentation. I suspect the evidence proffered by Corona will either be ignored by you or taken as “just one” article. It’s confusing when you seem on one hand to be searching for “proof” but then reject any that do not suit your perspective.
I fear you are falling – or have fallen – into the same trap Berkeley did whereby you will eventually come to the conclusion that nothing exists except yourself and that the “cosmic relatedness” is simply a manifestation of YOU! The Well of Solipsism is exceptionally deep and you are in danger of creating your own god-like perspective whereby either all who disagree with you are wrong (and I suppose that includes me) or that “disagreements” are simply aspects of yourself.
You might want to take your own advice: “I really wish people would abandon their pretty perspectives that are based on how the world should be.” Seems to me, and others, that you are hell bent on foisting your interpretation on the rest of us.
Oh, and lest you consider this a “personal attack,” my purpose is merely to point out that your style of argument could be enhanced by being more objective and disallowing your emotions to get too involved. The dilemma of trying to reconcile quantum uncertainty with measurable cosmic reality is a fascinating and productive discussion. As you are undoubtedly aware, this is a the heart of current cosmology – the search for the “unified” theory of All. But whether you like or dislike a person has no bearing on this so it’s best avoided.
And I believe it was hubris that resulted in Satan being cast down to Hell. I have no doubt that you chose your name with full knowledge of the connotations
Satan
May 16th, 2009
To get a better understanding of what I am trying to say, you should take a look at my latest paper entitled “Eureka! Quantum physics: Where Science, Religion, and Philosophy Meet”. You should be able to find it through google.
corona anatine
May 16th, 2009
satan said
If people acted as though knowledge is supreme (and it is) then the world could be a utopia.
and then said
I really wish people would abandon their pretty (petty?)perspectives that are based on how the world should be,
like the people who think the world should/could be a utopia perhaps?
corona Anatine
May 16th, 2009
Satan states
‘God’ thus is his agenda laid bare – he wants you to follow his irrational belief in a non existent entity”
You deny the existence of the quantum field?
eh no
what you said was :
These natural laws form a collective consciousness that is god.
as far as i am aware no physicist claims that the quantum field possesses a collective conscious awareness
Satan states
Then why does Quantum physics prove that life only exists because of the phenomenon that is free will?
it doesent
quantum processes are random
the concept of ‘free will’ comes from Christain doctrine
peoples lives have no purpose
unless they select one for themselves – as you have done
you have made the pursuit of knowledge/ en;lightment your goal in life
but that does not mean that this is the goal that everyone pursues
there is no purpose in life
some make the pursuit of knowlege in the bible / quran their life goal
others in downing as many pints of beer or drugs or sex their purpose in life
to them their purposes in life are just as valid as yours
outside of human perception their is an external reality
which may or may not include a supernatural entity
however whichever state is true is independent of the things that humans define as the purpose or meaning of existence
eg if god does not exist then no amount of belief in it will make it suddenly appear
likewise if ‘god’ does exist then no amount of disbelief will make it vanish
(that any ‘deity’ that might exist would likely be far too alien to even be aware of humans (never mind be interested enough in humans to communicate with us)is another matter entirely
corona Anatine
May 16th, 2009
The discovery of quantum physics actually signals the end of life.
Satan get a grip man before you are sectioned
fail
May 20th, 2009
“Catherine Itzin, Ann Taket, and Liz Kelly. “The evidence of harm to adults relating to exposure to extreme pornographic material: a rapid evidence assessment (REA)” An excellent and very well documented overview of research on the effects of “extreme” pornography.”
No. That’s written by a bunch of anti-porn activists who already knew the answer they wanted to get, employed by the government to get that answer. (As I recall, despite this they didn’t actually manage to find any decent evidence that “extreme” pornography was harmful. They did, however, find and make use of some fairly… iffy research.)
Lu
May 28th, 2009
The only thing you can be sure of, its the colour of your socks.
Steve
Feb 26th, 2012
Jeez, get a life and get with the 21st century!