Auto-Bans For Copybot Clients – SL Viewer Wars Escalate
by Alphaville Herald on 19/02/10 at 8:01 am
Skills Hak's client detection system & ban relay fights copybot-capable clients – Transylvania vampires warn against running griefer clients
by Pixeleen Mistral, National Affairs Desk
Taking Second Life anti-copying software as a service in a new direction, Skills Hak has released a client detection and ban relay system which Hak says "detects all known viewers with copybot/griefing functionality" with no false positives. Hak goes on to claim "So far there hasn't been a single reported false positive. You can trust
the system, the technique is not something that can be wrong, it detects harmful viewers with a success rate over 80%".
Only L$700 to fight copybots on your land – for the first month
It is unclear from the sales literature at XStreet exactly how one might contest a ban by the system other than to appeal directly to Skills Hak, but Hak apparently is willing to discuss matters with those who feel slighted by his system. This certainly seems like an infinitely scalable approach to justice in the metaverse, assuming Hak prefers to spend his time in Second Life chatting with aggrieved griefers and copybot artists.
The system is currently being sold on XStreet where it currently ranks #10 in sales after reaching a peak rank of #4.
The Gemini Cybernetics CDS system has apparently sucessfully automated the compilation and sharing of banned Second Life residents among Hak's customer base. Accord to the XStreet ad, "In the first 3 beta weeks, the system detected over 1200 people with harmful clients in the few high-traffic test-regions."
Two obvious extensions to the product – automated estate bans and automated abuse reports are a planned for a future release.
"As soon as an avatar connects to your region information is being
requested from a team of bots with special abilities, connected to a
database server off-sim. If detected and identified as harmful, the avatar is being teleported
home and banned from the parcel automatically. (Estatebans and
automated Abuse Reports are a planned feature..) Avatars will stay in
the database forever and treated as potentially harmful, even after
returning to a harmless viewer. It is a networked system so banlists
are shared automatically and users can benefit from each other. All the heavy-lifting and calculations are processed outside of the grid leaving CDS lag-free and secure.
Will this sort of zero tolerance justice improve life in the metaverse? Will the security of Skills Hak's ban database prove to be better than Banlink? The leadership in the Transylvania sims apparently think so, and have warned their community against using questionable Second Life viewers:
Group Notice From: Willow Raven
Be warned: If you are using a Neillife or other viewer designed for
copybotting and enter Transylvania, Hercynia or Desolation, your avatar
will automatically be ejected and banned, not only from Trans but from
every SIM in SL that is equipped with the protector. This copybot
protection service does not affect Emerald viewers, only illegal third
party viewers that were designed for the express purpose of
copybotting.Do NOT risk your status with the family by wearing such a
viewer.
Transylvanian Royals
vlad the impaler
Feb 19th, 2010
it is NOT your duty to sell a product that is taken from other people’s systems.
i know where you go it from i have seen the origonal scripting and you are so not the creator of this, i do know who made this script and HE is far from happy at how you managed to export his script from HIS anti-copybot system
this is funny, as for that copybot protection would need to do more than just scan your avatar and i do mean a LOT MORE.
as for the copybot software, it dont work to well, sure it can pick up CERTAIN clients but those clients are now being based on emerald , snowglobe and the offical sl client and those clients now show up as the clients mentioned.
but here is the kicker if the data is being kept off SL then i’m sure this will be ANOTHER JLU shitstorm.
also a LOT of people modify there clients, i myself mod my emerald client to look like the sapphire or even the < —FAG client name your software will not be able to distinguish what client is which and this means a lot of innocent people will be banned which may in turn bite you in the ass.
NOW for the touchy subject “Automated Abuse Reports”, can anyone say “shooting self in face”.
Automated abuse reports ARE AGAINST the SL TOS, to make an abuse report it MUST be done by a REAL PERSON this is one system which can get a FUCKLOAD of ppl in trouble if they use that.
an abuse report has to be done by real people for a reason.
think about this in a senario:
1 person gets 20 AR’s all the reports are diffrent plus the submitting times are diffrent which LL will check out
now if it was automated
1 person gets 20 AR’s all the reports are IDENTICLE in everyway and the submission time are all the same or at most all in 30 seconds this will make LL check out the SUBMITTERS and NOT the person who has had the AR’s submitted on. (i know this from a personall stand point)
also the security system which is hard coded into the SL server software would kick in and for having so many AR’s in a single sim in such a small time frame would be seen as abuse of the AR system.
so if all of you want to see your own accounts suspended or even banned for using a product which is highly similar to JLU’s own be my guest, if you want to go for the age old “i see you banhammer” then do that but do not use items which may have the ability to access your computer and scan it for client names or other items.
oh yeah i forgot to say that earlier on, to scan for client names it would need to access your own system
Senban Babii
Feb 19th, 2010
“Will this sort of zero tolerance justice improve life in the metaverse?”
In short, no.
Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t condone people abusing and misusing SL. But let’s take an hypothetical example.
I log in using one of these blacklisted clients and visit one of these sims. The team of bots (yet more bots on the grid please note) sees me and my blacklisted client and throws me out of the sim, banning me and potentially filing an automatic abuse report. So now I’m banned and abuse reported all on the say so of one resident (in effect). Didn’t we just deal with this in regard to the JLU and yet here we have yet another person coming along and declaring themselves all powerful protector of the grid? It may be automated rather than done in person by the spandex heroes but ultimately it’s along similar lines. Again I have to ask “where is the oversight?”
So let’s say I now think “okay, obviously my blacklisted viewer is not welcome, I’ll switch to using the standard client”. Only it’s not that simple of course. Because now I have a criminal record that won’t go away and I’m now forever “potentially harmful” purely because I used a client, not based upon my actual actions.
I can understand that people want to protect their products against copybotting but things like this and Banlink are just wrong and not the way to approach it. You can’t just ban someone based on the client they are using. That’s finding someone guilty by presumption rather than guilty by action. That’s no different to the JLU filing abuse reports based on the fact that someone is a member of Woodbury, even if they’ve actually done absolutely nothing wrong, and then telling all their friends to automatically ban that person from their lands.
I haven’t even logged into SL for a week now and frankly, every time I read something like this, it makes me want to log in less and less every time. Even though I only use the standard client, I’ll personally be boycotting any place that subscribes to this system. A token gesture perhaps but I’ll be doing it regardless.
All Seeing Eye
Feb 19th, 2010
The only way to improve this system is to make it rez a large vertical stake and slowly impale the botter writhing in agony and then leave a sculpty avi representation on the stake for the rest of SLeternity (what? a year or less?).
Gundel Gaukelei
Feb 19th, 2010
So I heard Mr. Hak is in the snakeoil security business now…
deadlycodec
Feb 19th, 2010
The only way that this is possible is if they’re using a signature based detection system, or perhaps timed-response based like with programs used to fingerprint applications running on a server, for example.
These sorts of systems are never anything more than a temporary fix at best, and could be defeated by modifying the client so as to remove detected signatures and make it more closely mimic the official client’s behavior. Antivirus uses a signature and behavior based detection system too, and yet we see headlines like this on zdnet:
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/Eighty-percent-of-new-malware-defeats-antivirus/0,130061744,139263949,00.htm
The end of griefing and copybot? Hardly.
Ari Blackthorne
Feb 19th, 2010
Heh, yes.
Even 80% effective is better than 0% effective. I have this and used a throw-away alt with a neillife to test. I won;t even bother sending out or posting a warning.
I’m of the eeeviiil bastard mind to set an ambush for people using these viewers and I hope I snag a truckload. I liken it to Seven-Seas Fishing. Except each catch is considerably more satisfying.
Wyrdwolf Legion
Feb 19th, 2010
I recently asked a member of the RESI team if the use of such clients was an an abuse of ToS, and was told that currently, the use of the client isn’t, but the act of using them to copy others peoples items was..
Looks like dangerous ground to me.
nevasay neva
Feb 19th, 2010
well… if they would add into the abilities of this new AutoBan system the ability to detect and swiftly deal with anyone wearing say THE BRAINIAC TRANSPONDER that would be fun to watch.
Edna
Feb 19th, 2010
I had to check the date to ensure this wasn’t an April Fools post. I’ve been using SL for five years now and have never copy botted anything. I do, however, enjoy trying out new viewers when I come across them. I’ve never seen a veiwer yet that puts a disclaimer before you download and use that says “This viewer is only to be used for copy botting and griefing”. So I try out a new viewer having no intention of copying or perhaps having no idea that I could copy, and I am put on a list of known criminals? I think it is the other way around; the morons that use the device are the griefers and the people who are the real criminals.
What the hell is wrong with Linden Lab to yet again let something like this exist in Second Life, let alone have it for sale on their site? If LL wants to retain and grow the memberbase, they really need to put a stop to these people who undermine their platform by bypassing the LL discipline procedures.
I don’t give rat’s ass about copy botting, I’m in SL for entertainment. I don’t buy foolish new things and have nothing to do with the situation. I should not have to be put out so some moron that does can make a buck. Get a real life job like most adults get. If a content developer can’t stand the risk of copy botting or refuses to follow the proper channels to report it, then they should get the hell out of Second Life. The vast magority of SL users don’t need your new tee-shirt or whatever crap you are selling so sod off and stop trying to interfere with my and everyone else’s enjoyment of SL. I am with you Senban Babii, SL residents need to boycott any and every area in SL that uses this system.
Alex
Feb 19th, 2010
“This copybot protection service does not affect Emerald viewers, only illegal third party viewers that were designed for the express purpose of copybotting.”
Uh, newsflash: There’s no such thing as an “illegal third party viewer.” Linden chose to license their client under the GNU GPL, and that means anyone can modify and release the client however they damn well please. There is nothing illegal about writing and releasing exploit software. The LL TOS, believe it or not, only regulates how people use their service, not what software people make and release on the Internet.
All Seeing Eye
Feb 19th, 2010
@Wyrdwolf Legion – I can ban you for having a retarded name or for just being a dumbass and knowing nothing about SL. Or for no reson at all.
This is about banning from parcels and regions. Has nothing to do with SL bans. Everyone knows LL doesn’t ban for ripping off copyrighted stuff.
No the automated AR idea is not a good idea. The RESI Team would get pissed off pretty quick about any such idea. circle jerk group ARs are probably a bad idea after the JLU crap went down. And then you can AR all day long. It doesn’t matter unless you are the IP owner and also filing the required DMCA.
No this is just about restricting movement. But since certain viewers ignore even sim bans we have to have ejection bots to jettison them every time they come back.
All Seeing Eye
Feb 19th, 2010
Hey Edna: LL allows sale of orbiters and all sorts of “illegal devices” on xstreet and in world. Try growing up. Since you and your ilk are stealing and not buying then why the hell would anyone want you near their stores dipshit?
Open sim has no permissions. I suggest you move there.
Nelson Jenkins
Feb 19th, 2010
@ Wyrdwolf Legion
This is the problem: you can detect someone with a viewer but it is technically impossible to detect, on your end, when they use the copybot part. While it is feasible to code something that would trigger an immediate review of the account in question by a qualified “detective” if certain criteria were met, this is something that the Lindens refuse to do because it would 1.) require more employees and thus more employment costs and 2.) be something that would enrage copybotters and conservative paranoid anti-regulation freaks alike.
Do note, however, that there is no word(s) in the ToS that state(s) something along the lines that “you must provide service and unbiased, indiscriminate opportunities to each and every visitor on your land no matter what”. In fact, I note in my store that we may refuse service to anyone at anytime for any reason or no reason at all. This means that automatically banning people from your land simply because they are using a certain client, whether illegal or not, is perfectly fine. After all, if someone hates the color red, they have the right to ban people that wear red clothes from their land. If they hate women, they can ban women. If they hate black avatars, they can ban black avatars.
The issue here (as you probably pointed out in your mind) is when selective banning becomes discrimination rather than personal taste. There is no ToS clause banning discrimination, but there is a CS section (actually labeled “Intolerance”) that does so:
“Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life’s Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident’s race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life.”
Once again, it pays to read between the lines with Linden Lab. True, banning every single minority that comes your way probably will get you eventually suspended for a day, but it is not against the Community Standards when done quietly and without warning, apparently. Here’s how it works: by banning minorities you may be marginalizing or belittling them in a very, very vague sense, which in turn inhibits the exchange of ideas and whatnot. However, what if it’s private land – somewhere where the general public isn’t typically allowed to “exchange ideas”? Then, technically, you’re in the clear. As for the second part of the section, as long as you do not demean the person in any way while you ban them, it’s okay. Got it? So technically, you’re welcome to ban minorities from your place of business.
In any case, you’re not demeaning or belittling those that choose, for some wild, stupid reason, to use a blacklisted client. Don’t worry about that.
Another question that pops up – is using a NETWORKED system a ToS violation? Well, actually, no. Despite the whines to the contrary, you are simply choosing to subscribe to a list of people and have them automatically banned from your parcel. It’s simply collaboration between landowners. You ever been in a group and get “hey guys Joe Avatar is stealing passwords with this thing ban him from your store ASAP!” in group chat? Is that a ToS violation? No. Here’s an example as to why: say you see a prowler around your property in a black coat, gloves, and a ski mask. Is he doing anything wrong by just BEING there? No, of course not, but you tell your neighbors “hey, be on the lookout for a guy in a black hoodie and a ski mask, he looks like he’s causing some trouble”. Should your neighbors allow that person into their homes blindly or keep them off their property by force on the basis that he was seen in clothing typically worn by a burglar? (Whether or not they were intending to burgle your house is a separate conundrum, however, keep in mind that they are not being personally harmed in the process and can reverse the decision by speaking to the neighborhood’s association.)
However, an automatic abuse report system is a problem. I could elaborate, but just read above: abuse reports can only be sent by humans, they cannot be reversed in the event of a false positive, etc.
Nelson Jenkins
Feb 19th, 2010
@ Edna
I’m not sure why everyone’s up in arms about this. It only detects viewers such as Neillife, which “were designed for the express purpose of copybotting”.
Neillife’s blog expressly states that copybotting is NOT allowed and it is not the intention of the software, but absolutely NOBODY with a brain uses Neillife for anything but copybotting. And if you are using a blacklisted viewer to just go about your business, then you seriously need to get your head checked and perhaps should enjoy getting a boot up the ass for being a complete dolt.
@ Alex
There is such thing as an “illegal third party viewer”, but only in the indirect sense. Is a viewer that does nothing new except copybot things a “legal” viewer? No, it’s not. In fact, I recall a while ago the Lindens were going to begin implementing a certification process to whitelist viewers. I’m not sure if it would result in limited whitelist-only access to the grid, but it’s their service and they can do as they please with it. And trust me, nobody will complain if/when they disallow non-certified third party viewers into the grid. You know why? Because paying customers use either the original viewer or Emerald. They aren’t going to spend money so they can use a copybot-enabled viewer. And non-paying customers are completely disposable to the Lab.
“Linden chose to license their client under the GNU GPL, and that means anyone can modify and release the client however they damn well please.” (Alex) Is the server-side code released under the GNU GPL? At this time, no:
“We don’t (yet) plan to release the code that runs our simulators or other server code (“the Grid”). We’re keeping an open mind about the possibility of opening more of the Second Life Grid; the level of success we have with open sourcing our viewer will direct the speed and extent of further moves in this arena.” (Second Life Grid)
In the future, possibly (which would be great for opensim) but right now, no. Thus, the Lab can reserve the iron-clad right to “lock out” certain people from utilizing the server code entirely, no matter what (same thing with some landowners wanting to “lock out” certain people form utilizing their land entirely). What good is a viewer that cannot connect to the Second Life grid at all? The server code is not yours in the slightest. Live with it. If you want to use it, you have to go through the Lab.
Antonius Misfit
Feb 19th, 2010
I have two major problems with this product: First is having an avatar’s name in the database permanently. If a false positive were to happen(and sooner or later, it will happen), how would a wrongfully accused avatar go about clearing his/her name properly? Make the case to the parcel/estate owner whose CDS reported him/her or Skills Hak? There’s no appeal process described or a link to one shown anywhere on the listings. Second, there’s the planned feature of automated abuse reports. That would add Linden Lab to the list of parties a wrongfully accused avatar would have to go through, plus having to deal with account suspension on top of the networked banlist.
In simple words, the design of CDS doesn’t account for the possibility of failure or false detection, and may lead to lawsuits by wronged parties. So when that happens, grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.
Nelson Jenkins
Feb 19th, 2010
@ Edna (again)
“If LL wants to retain and grow the memberbase, they really need to put a stop to these people who undermine their platform by bypassing the LL discipline procedures.”
This made me do a double take. You’re criticizing the people that use the product for “bypassing” the LL discipline procedures – akin to criticizing people that wear shields because the LL-provided antipush option occasionally does not want to work.
If you’ve got a two-tank vehicle (do they make these anymore? I recall my old F-150 Lariat had a small backup gas tank) and you stop at a gas station because one is close to empty, even though you’ve got a backup tank, is that somehow a sin against the car company because they provided the gas tank and you refused to utilize it at that time? Your logic there has some serious flaws. Just because something inferior is provided to you doesn’t mean you can’t choose a better alternative on the grounds that the inferior item will be “undermined”.
Also, does this apply to those that bypass the LL discipline procedures on the other side of the fence? Such as using proxies, alts, etc. to evade bans?
Ari Blackthorne
Feb 19th, 2010
@Edna and all the other whiners:
I ban you from *my* land.
For no reason and any reason. More or less because I really just couldn’t care any less about what you think or how long you’ve been on the grid. However, it’s not about *you* (amazing how conceited you are that you think it is.) it is about the other dick-wads who do use these viewers for the purpose of ripping content.
Since I can’t separate them from you (oh, you saintly anger, you) – I guess I’ll have to go with the lowest common denominator which just happens to be *that viewer*. You don’t like it? Don;t use that viewer.
Yeah, I’m quite familiar myself with those viewers and experimented also. But I’m not stupid either: I test on my land in private. What reason would you have to hop the grid while “experimenting” with a viewer *known* to be capable of *illegal* activities?
Only a dip-shit would don the NLife or Slife viewers and go galavanting all over the grid with it. In which case, you end-up in any of my sims with it you deserve to be banned.
Because I choose do so. For my own entertainment.
So let it be written, let it be done!
Muahahahahah
Same rules Linden Lab has for anyone entering their grid. Entitlement attitude or not.
Wyrdwolf Legion
Feb 19th, 2010
@ All Seeing Eye and Nelson Jenkins
It appears that I didn’t make myself clear in my previous post.
The danger I was referring to was the automatic abuse reporting of people, for using a viewer that is considered illegal, when it is only the use of certain aspects of the viewer that would be deemed illegal. That would be a clear case of false reporting, and would likely leave the owner of the bot open to discipline.
coco
Feb 19th, 2010
scary shit from another FIC…
BS they can afford those INSILICO sims…without SL funding help.
and if they want to ban folks on there sims fine.. but all ban lists and “products” that use them should be banned from the LL grid…
which we pay for its usage of….
this is a TOS breaker app…that makes the grid less usable for many who may not be doing anything wrong according to LL TOS.
and skills hak is the latest rezzable builderbot and ESC land scanner…
Edna
Feb 19th, 2010
@All Seeing Eye. Open that all seeing eye and re-read my post jackass. I’m not going in your store anyway, I think buying anything is Second Life is a waste of money. LL gave me a folder of free clothes and shapes. I would feel silly “buying” what was given to me for free.
People like you are the problem with America today. Nobody owes you a living friend, that is your responsibility. Most of us in SL are there for entertainment and have nothing to do with this copy bot crap yet you think you have a right to impose on my use of Second Life to fatten your bank account? Screw you.
If you want to make money in SL go ahead, but with this device you are imposing on my liberty solely to benefit you. I’m tired of supporting crybabies that won’t do for themselves. Learn how to script and put a damn call back function in your item so it won’t rez unless the person trying to rezz it is listed as a legit buyer in a database. Put a friggin watermark on your textures that shows your store name or slurl. If you can’t figure out how to protect your business without imposing on the rights and liberties of others that owe you nothing then like I said earlier, get the hell out of SL.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 19th, 2010
>Implying any copybot client worth its salt can’t spoof itself as a legitimate one.
SirLordChikkinz
Feb 19th, 2010
Lol neal is out of business. Also, your system didn’t ban me. Needs some work lol.
FrizzleFry
Feb 19th, 2010
COPYBOT PROTECTION v5.20014.134 LESS SPAM EDITORS EDITION ACTIVATED STAND THE FUCK BACK
!quit
!quit
!quit
!quit
YOU ARE NOW SAFE
Tux Winkler
Feb 19th, 2010
Stoopid argument – XD – the latest copybot clients have the ability to mask as any other client instantly. Personally I use FlexLife (no copybot inside), but LL has said no client is illegal. So this is just another copybot quit which doesn’t work. I would like to see proof of detection in a real impartial test.
But hey lets face it, this will be installed on private regions mostly, away from mainland. So its client base will be cutting off their nose to spite their face, by permenantly excluding visitors for not understanding how to use these clients fully (if they knew they would mask as emerald).
If people was to sign up to an over zealous ban system, let them. I wonder how soon it is until people start to remove them. I just hope they don’t spam me with stoopid chat!
(Oh, and I would hate for this system to be copied and set to full perms. Can you imagine how fast the server would last if some clever little scripter dumped the what db into the ban list?)
!quit
XD
Baloo Uriza
Feb 19th, 2010
I’m not sure which is more odd. The fact that the person who is purveying this crap doesn’t realize that 1) it’ll work until the next release of griefing clients, or 2) that zero tolerance is the same as zero intelligence.
anonymouse
Feb 19th, 2010
@Tux: That, I’d like to see. Im not a malicious person really, but imagining that clever little scripter made me giggle.
This system doesnt affect me at all, I never really cared enough to look at any other clients then LL’s own one. But, the mentioning of an automated AR function seems like a bad idea to me too, as noted by others above it will eventually bite the creators and users in the rear. It will probably do more bad then good…
I’m just hoping it will be in a funny way, please let someone more malicious (and better at programming/scripting) then me step up and bork it.
Nelson Jenkins
Feb 19th, 2010
@ Wyrdwolf Legion
Sorry for the mistake. I was pointing out that a public blacklist that works solely on a subscription basis is not illegal, but yes, adding automatic abuse reports would violate the ToS in several ways.
@ coco
And you are who? Oh, sorry, that sense of entitlement to pervert other entities’ proprietary, closed-source, limited-access property got in the way of your question, try asking again after you actually read the Terms of Service and understand that, at this time, it is not a violation.
@ Edna (yet again)
You continually fail to understand that this does not affect you in the slightest unless you are dimwitted enough to use a viewer with copybot capabilities. Content creators should have the right to restrict access to their land to only those that do not trigger an anti-theft alarm. If you shoplifted from a store in the mall, should you simply be kicked out of that particular store and escorted to the next one to shoplift some more? You don’t have an inherent right to be on other people’s property at all, especially when you’ve got burglary tools in your hand.
In fact, I DO have phone-home scripts in my products. They even have a variety of functions limited solely to me so I can delete things remotely or on-site, reset scripts, and request debugging reports of the scripts inside. They also check a database of known copybot users (and, admittedly, people that I despise) and even can be restricted from being used in sims that are copybot hubs. If something’s wrong, it immediately deletes/unwears itself. However, here’s a simple way to defeat it: no-script land. Rez or wear it in no-script land and nothing happens whatsoever; you’re free to fire up your copybot.
Another thing: the only effective approach is a proactive approach. There is one particular person that has created 12 alts (so far) simply to copybot my friend’s product and give it away for free. It’s not expensive, it’s extremely well-made, and it’s very popular, but he is determined to free it from its rightful creator. After something’s copybotted, it’s extremely hard to delete. If you nab the criminal before he kills the victim, you saved a life and caught the bad guy. If you let him kill first, you’ve got a dead body on your hands.
@ Tux Winkler
You’re talking about trolls. Most of ‘em r doin it rong. I guarantee that at least 90% of copybotters don’t bother to use this feature, and the other 10% are probably smart enough to at least deserve a fighting chance at not being caught.
I think, however, that this is absolute marketing genius. The peak sales rank was #4… he’s getting a fuckton of money off of this, whether it works or not! I mean, is there some kind of way of knowing someone was banned by you on your parcel? If so, that’d be kind of cool, you could keep score of the noob trolls caught in the trap. If not, he could be just bullshitting us all. (Which wouldn’t surprise me. SL has proven to be a very crafty platform.)
I want to point out, though, that I will not purchase this product simply because of the chance of it becoming automated abuse report friendly as well as its inane restriction of you-can-only-rez-once, along with the fact that I pride my scripts, not my builds (which are… well, bad) and my displays are unscripted, so having copybot protection on my land is rather pointless unless someone wants to copy my vendor design (which, not surprisingly, has been done, albeit manually).
@ Baloo Uriza
1.) That’s what we want; the next release. This one’s getting old and the makers are slipping into retirement. We want them back so we can ridicule them some more for having absolutely no life and spending the tiny amount that they do have of it on coding Second Life viewers that do nothing but violate international law for their trollish amusement.
2.) Zero tolerance is zero intelligence, so? Here’s something to ponder: while the FBI was looking for Ted Bundy, the Co-Ed Killer (I think that was him, whoever it was, it was Ted) they enacted a mandatory curfew for the entire city. There was a zero tolerance policy on stopping all vehicles and persons found on the streets after a certain time. Guess what? Every single one of them – and I mean every… single… one… – was in possession of one or more of: drugs, weapons, warrants, alcohol (and drunkenness), or stolen goods. It may be zero intelligence in the purely technical sense, but hey, it works. It’s practical. And it’s used every day around the world to stop people from harming you.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 20th, 2010
>Also, your system didn’t ban me. Needs some work lol.
Of course it fucking didn’t. The ‘copybot protection’ market is nothing but scammers – something I recall N3X1S telling people time and time again.
Anonymous
Feb 20th, 2010
I bought this and so far it has banned 2 people from my sim, when I looked at the profiles they were empty created just today. Someone must have been trying to test it out or just created some avatars today to do copying. I can tell you it works and works well. I do not think that copybotting can be totally eliminated but if I can deter some then I am happy. Just because you cant win a war doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fight.
@ Edna, you are a dumb ass. Don’t be bitter because some people can work in second life and not have to worry about rush hour traffic or idiot bosses looking over their shoulders. Stop showing your utter stupidity by saying that people don’t shop in sl, because they do, just because you don’t have the skills to create in sl doesn’t mean you should knock it, I don’t come to your job and kick dicks out of your mouth so leave my job alone.
someone unimportant
Feb 20th, 2010
Your example about the co-ed killer tells me more then that zero tolerance is effective: it tells me that there’s too many criminals walking around over there, and thus that the local police were not doing a good enough job.
And thus that I’m all the more wise not to trust anyone from that … well, continent. All the more reason for me to stay the fuck away
Also, quit yet bawwwwing about copybot, and finally accept that, (also under LL’s own TOS) you dont actually OWN anything in SL, that SL is a horribly dangerous and risky buisness platform because of that, and that you must be clearly off your rocker if you are either putting money into the game as an investment, depending on SL for your income, or take it anything more serious then just a friggin game.
Even tho you might not see SL as a game, others do. And yeah, some of them take the greatest pleasure in seeing you take it all too seriously. And you will have to admit, that, to some, is reason enough to copybot all they can and hand it out for teh lulz, just to see you frothing at the mouth on blogs like this.
Stealing is wrong, I agree, but reading all the bawwwwwing is horribly entertaining.
Actually, forget what I said, forget what anyone is saying who’s trying to talk some sense into you, please keep on entertaining us. Please, trust someone’s product you have never met and never heard of, to keep your precious original content (cause we all know there is ONLY original content ever made on SL LOL), and when the shit hits the fan, please let us all know in the Herald Comments how you feel having your trust damaged. I’ll be happily reading along munching popcorn.
Senban Babii
Feb 20th, 2010
Right this second as I type this, I’m listening to Mitch Kapor’s speech from the SL5B event (https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2008/07/07/sl5b-mitch-kapor-s-keynote-mp3-video-text-transcript-up).
And he’s recounting a story about a student in the early nineties complaining about people using AOL email addresses (around 11.55 on the video clip). Mitch Kapor is basically reprimanding the student and saying you can’t make assumptions about someone’s intentions or level of intelligence based on their choice of email provider. To me, this also applies here. You can’t make assumptions that just because someone uses a viewer that YOU don’t like means they are up to no good.
I’m the first to admit that I worry that some of the viewers have capabilities which I personally don’t believe should be allowed, from both a privacy standpoint and from the viewpoint of illicit activity. In my honest opinion, I don’t believe that the majority of those using them have the maturity to use those tools ethically and responsibly. But just because someone is using a particular viewer does not mean that I automatically jump to the conclusion that they are up to no good. I judge people on their actions, not on my presumptions.
Senban Babii
Feb 20th, 2010
@Nelson Jenkins
“Here’s something to ponder: while the FBI was looking for Ted Bundy, the Co-Ed Killer (I think that was him, whoever it was, it was Ted) they enacted a mandatory curfew for the entire city. There was a zero tolerance policy on stopping all vehicles and persons found on the streets after a certain time. Guess what? Every single one of them – and I mean every… single… one… – was in possession of one or more of: drugs, weapons, warrants, alcohol (and drunkenness), or stolen goods. It may be zero intelligence in the purely technical sense, but hey, it works. It’s practical. And it’s used every day around the world to stop people from harming you.”
Hey well done! You just condoned the creation of a police state 8D What we should do is make up some kind of semi-imaginary threat, call them terrorists or commies or something and then use the resulting panic to bring in lots of laws that enable the police state that you just suggested. You can even bring in slogans like “We’re restricting your freedom for your comfort and convenience”, “The Computer Is Your Friend, Trust The Computer” and so on. Bonus prize of a week’s supply of Bouncy Bubble Beverage© to those who get the Paranoia reference there XD
Of course there are no terrorists in Second Life so we’ll change that to “copybotters” and turn “police state” into “corporate state” but otherwise I think you’ve hit on a great idea!
Caution – The above may exceed your RDA of Sarcasm
“If you nab the criminal before he kills the victim, you saved a life and caught the bad guy.”
Yes and you also take away the freedom to make your own decisions on whether to act or not. Because what you’re talking about is presuming that someone is going to be guilty in the future and imprisoning them now so that they can’t commit the crime in the future. There is no way you can predict such things. There’s a world of difference between stopping someone from committing murder as they are engaged in the act and preventing someone from committing murder by imprisoning them in advance. If you catch someone in the act of copybotting, fine. If you find evidence after the fact and can prove the case so to speak, fine. But you can’t simply say “everyone who uses software x is a copybotter” and imprison or exile them. That’s like saying that everyone who owns an axe is a potential serial killer and must therefore be imprisoned for the public good.
“They also check a database of known copybot users (and, admittedly, people that I despise)”
Ahh, corruption already raises its ugly head.
You should visit your nearest JLU recruiting office and sign up. They love people like you
Tux Winkler
Feb 20th, 2010
Oh, I just looked at the picture:
- 1,2 and 6 month licenses available
OMG people have to keep paying for this rubbish?
We
Feb 20th, 2010
It’s not actually against the rules to use a client capable of copying, it’s only against the rules if you copy someone else’s items that you don’t own. They seem to be pretty okay with you copying your own items that you paid for, so long as you don’t sell them or give them away. People who use a client like that of course are more likely to copy someone else’s stuff than not, but it’s an innocent until proven guilty thing.
They shouldn’t keep names on a list forever, it should start dropping names off the list after maybe a week or a month, if they get caught again then the timer gets refreshed, so repeat offenders would stay on the list, whereas someone who stopped using the client would be taken off within a week or two. This would also clean up the list (which I imagine would get pretty huge overtime), as copybotters get banned from SL and obviously don’t need to be added to estate lists and such.
Charging a 700L$ monthly subscription service is pretty crazy.
We
Feb 20th, 2010
Considering Skills Hak is one of the devs for the Emerald viewer, I wonder if competing innocent third party viewers might suddenly be flagged as “griefer clients”.
Nelson Jenkins
Feb 20th, 2010
@ someone unimportant
You’re not really important here, so I don’t know if I should respond.
I have not paid a penny to SL (except for the silly payment I had to send to activate my Lindex exchange level, which I earned back easily), so I don’t really care if lowlife miscreants have the inexplicable desire to fuck with people. If they want to steal things, that’s their choice. If I want to ban people from my parcel for using a viewer I don’t like, that’s my choice too. You don’t seem to understand that if you’re going to justify theft, we’re going to justify discrimination.
“Also, quit yet bawwwwing about copybot, and finally accept that, (also under LL’s own TOS) you dont actually OWN anything in SL, that SL is a horribly dangerous and risky buisness platform because of that, and that you must be clearly off your rocker if you are either putting money into the game as an investment, depending on SL for your income, or take it anything more serious then just a friggin game.”
At this time I’m beta testing my own service for Second Life users that wish to keep tabs on roleplay-only violations enforced by cops or what-have-you. It basically provides rap sheets for avatars. It’s invitation-only during the beta and yet I’m already earning twice as much profit overall. Here’s the question: can it be stolen? No. (Well, unless someone decided to waste their time hacking it. But that’s much harder than downloading an illegal client to steal other people’s Second Life creations.) It’s entirely outside the Second Life Terms of Service. You can even post chat logs on it without consent! However, without Second Life as a platform, it would be useless, so please reconsider your statement. Second Life is not a dangerous and risky business platform when used correctly. Oh, and I don’t depend on Second Life for my income, it simply adds to my disposable income and provides us with some meals out and covers the utilities. So yes, I do take it rather seriously. Maybe if you would as well, you could get some entirely free cash out of it.
“Actually, forget what I said, forget what anyone is saying who’s trying to talk some sense into you, please keep on entertaining us. Please, trust someone’s product you have never met and never heard of, to keep your precious original content (cause we all know there is ONLY original content ever made on SL LOL)”
Right now I’m stuck in a hotel waiting for the Wayne County Probate Court, two doctors offices, the Adult Protective Services, and the local police department to resolve a major family problem on Monday. Nobody is available today. Unfortunately, this Hampton Inn is engaging in major false advertising: it does not offer “high-speed internet access”. In fact, the rated speed is 32 kbps (download speed, then, is 4 KB/s). This is, amazingly, slower than dialup. Worse, my laptop is getting old and crabby, so I’m planning on purchasing a new SL-compatible computer on my return. So at this time I’ve got nothing to do but type, and why not make fun of idiots like you?
Again, I have not purchased this product and do not plan to for two reasons: one, if it starts sending automatic abuse reports I want out, and two, it can only be rezzed once, which may end up being a problem for me if I want to move it. Oh, and three, I have yet to see any ironclad proof from a neutral third party that it even works.
I have scripted the entire database software with the help of another coder from scratch, I write my own scripts in-world, and I design my own products. I only create products similar to actual ones on request, and the operation of my products is usually designed to be exactly the same as actual ones for realism and ease of use. Of course, the sounds I use are from actual products, but it’s just easier that way. So, basically, 95% of my products are original.
@ Senban Babii
“…he’s recounting a story about a student in the early nineties complaining about people using AOL email addresses (around 11.55 on the video clip). Mitch Kapor is basically reprimanding the student and saying you can’t make assumptions about someone’s intentions or level of intelligence based on their choice of email provider.”
Yes you can. I look down upon anyone with AOL email addresses. I also generally view gmail addresses as owned by people with enough reasoning ability to notice that GMail is currently the best, easiest-to-use web-based email provider. And did he particularly say “can’t” or “shouldn’t”? Because I can do anything I damn well please, but should I?
“To me, this also applies here. You can’t make assumptions that just because someone uses a viewer that YOU don’t like means they are up to no good.”
Well, again, who uses Neillife to run a legitimate business? Who prowls around neighborhoods in a black hoodie and a ski mask at midnight to walk the dog? Who drives a Hummer to save gas? It doesn’t make logical sense.
Here’s how it works: we’re talking about an action, not a property. If someone uses an AOL email address, we can’t say what they’re going to do with it, but we can assume that they haven’t tried GMail or do not have the reasoning power to understand it. However, if someone is standing next to a car with burglary tools, can we assume they are going to try to steal the car (or, at least, some other car)? Of course we can. Similarly, if someone is using Neillife and walking around a car store, can we assume they are going to try to copybot one of the cars (or, at least, something else)? Of course.
But again, that’s not the point. As a landowner I have the infallible right to allow and deny people access to it as I please. If I deny people access on the basis of they have blue pants, then that’s my right. If I deny people access on the basis of they have long hair, then that’s my right. If I deny people access on the basis of they smoke, then that’s my right. If I deny people access on the basis of they are carrying burglary tools, then that’s my right. If I deny people access on the basis of they are using a client I don’t want to be used on my land, then that’s my right.
“Hey well done! You just condoned the creation of a police state 8D What we should do is make up some kind of semi-imaginary threat, call them terrorists or commies or something and then use the resulting panic to bring in lots of laws that enable the police state that you just suggested.”
That I did. Do you want a police state, though? No, that’s why we don’t have one (yet). The author of the book I found that factoid in pointed out that the observation noted there could not be verified because cops can’t stop everyone on the street at midnight, otherwise massive public outcry would occur. We tolerate the criminals because we don’t want to tip the balance of freedom and safety.
If you took a criminal justice class, you would understand this concept. Criminal justice is just that – a balance between freedom and safety. But that’s neither here nor there, and I’d rather not get off track too much.
“Yes and you also take away the freedom to make your own decisions on whether to act or not. Because what you’re talking about is presuming that someone is going to be guilty in the future and imprisoning them now so that they can’t commit the crime in the future. There is no way you can predict such things.”
The thing about a criminal is that he has committed a crime, otherwise he would not be a criminal. I should have clarified, I’m talking about a criminal already with a warrant that is on his way to kill [another] person.
But again, we’re not talking about guilt, we’re talking about the right to control access to your own land, which happens to be a right in most if not all of the civilized world, along with Second Life (ya know that little tab labeled “Access” in land options?).
“If you catch someone in the act of copybotting, fine. If you find evidence after the fact and can prove the case so to speak, fine. But you can’t simply say “everyone who uses software x is a copybotter” and imprison or exile them. That’s like saying that everyone who owns an axe is a potential serial killer and must therefore be imprisoned for the public good.”
Incorrect, because an axe has many potential uses and is more often than not used to cut wood. What use does Neillife have? Access Second Life and copybot things. Which one is it used more often for? Get the point?
“Ahh, corruption already raises its ugly head.”
It’s my own damn company, and they get automatic refunds anyways. Who’s gonna stop me? Again, I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any or no reason.
“You should visit your nearest JLU recruiting office and sign up. They love people like you
”
I love wearing spandex, maybe you’re right! ;3
All Seeing Eye
Feb 20th, 2010
@Senban – The police state is coming. And not from concerned residents. In fact we need to stop calling ourselves residents as we have no right. We are game players. And LL has a truckload of doom crap on the way.
Jahar Aabye
Feb 20th, 2010
It seems that almost every comment here has missed the biggest glaring problem here: How the hell does this software supposedly detect whether someone is using Neil’s client or one of the other copybotting clients? I’ve heard other content creators claim that their device can tell them when someone is using Neil’s client as well, but I had assumed that they were simply using a “phone home” update check against their sales lists to catch the pseudo-copybot activity that transfers items that should be no-trans.
Actually, I can think of one way that this might work: If the person selling this device is Neil himself. He would, of course, have the ability to put some sort of poison pill into his client, and would know how to script a device to detect it. Maybe this is Neil’s last-ditch effort to try to make a quick buck from suckers and idiots in SL.
I mean, that’s what it really comes down to. Either this device is a sham, just like those stupid “!QUIT” spamming signs, or else it’s sold by Neil himself.
Jahar Aabye
Feb 20th, 2010
Hmmmm, after looking into it a bit, I’ll have to take back my comment about the possibility of Neil being the one selling this, since the seller does have a long history and reputation.
That’s what makes this difficult to figure out. On the one hand, the guy may have the abilities to do what this item claims to be able to do. On the other hand, it sounds like a very difficult proposition. Perhaps he has found some particular bug in Neil’s programming (wouldn’t surprise me…actually, the only thing that would surprise me would be Neil actually doing any programming himself instead of just using other people’s code, but I digress) and he has a method for detecting this flaw.
I could even see why he might not want to reveal the exact specifics on how this particular device works, since that might make it easier for people to find ways around it, if it did work. However, the way it is sold, the subscription plan, the talk about permanent blacklists…it smells funny.
I guess my expectation would be that given the very real problems posed by NeilLife and similar viewers, that Skills would have distributed this detection software in a different manner, to maximize the ability of people to detect the use of these clients, rather than trying to charge people for the service. Then again, if his methods require bots, off-site servers and scripts…all that stuff costs money to maintain, so perhaps that’s the reason for the subscription.
But still, while this individual may have the ability to detect these clients, the manner in which he is going about distributing it does not match with the purported goal. Even if he could not divulge his methods for fear that they would be circumvented, surely he would be trying to distribute this method across the grid in an effort to stop people from using those clients. And all this talk of blacklists and such doesn’t sound very legit either.
It just smells. I don’t know what to think. It’s promising something that so far has seemed impossible, while charging a subscription and instituting many of the practices of Banlink that we all know are a giant clusterfuck waiting to happen.
Of course, there is one other major major problem with this strategy. Let’s say that someone walks into a store where this system is set up, using a regular client, LL’s client, Emerald, CoolViewer, whatever, a legit client. They purchase an item. Then later, they log in on their own land using Neil’s client of some other similar client, and use that to copybot the item or change its perms or whatever other exploit Neil’s discovered today to give out to his dumbass teenage horde.
Obviously, there are methods that the content creator can script into their item to circumvent some forms of copybotting, but this particular product mentioned here will not do anything if the person uses a legitimate client on the store owner’s land, and then uses one of these other clients to do the actual act of theft or however you want to classify what is almost certainly a computer crime of some sort. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that there’s much we can do to deter thieves except DMCA and other legal means.
However, if this product does work, then I’m glad that there are people trying to stop the use of these illegal clients (and yes, they are illegal because they violate the licenses of the code that they base these clients off of….has anyone seen Neil actually publish his source code as required? Of course not).
I just don’t know that this product sounds very trustworthy, based on its methods. If Skills knows how to detect NeilLife, he needs to make that ability available to the community as a whole, in a manner that will actually be useful. I don’t think that this product will accomplish its goals.
Senban Babii
Feb 20th, 2010
@Nelson Jenkins
To a large extent we’re going to have to agree to disagree. But I will add this one point.
You keep reminding us that you are allowed to discriminate in any way you see fit as to who you allow on your land. Hmm, not true. If you discriminate against someone on the grounds of say race or gender or whatever then there are laws that apply in the real world as I am sure you are aware. And while I’m not a lawyer, I’m sure that many of those laws apply online. Otherwise we wouldn’t have websites getting shut down for being racist etc.
So let’s say for example you have a sim and you say “No blacks allowed, I hate them and I can discriminate against them if I want to”. Can you though? You wouldn’t be able to get away with it in a bricks-and-mortar store if you had that sign on your front door and had someone stopping certain segments of the population entering your store. Very quickly you’d find yourself in court and public opinion would be against you too I imagine. You’d certainly fidn yourself plastered across a few front pages.
Many years ago, while a student, I had a weekend job in a big clothing store. Every weekend, a minibus of people would arrive in the big car park outside. They were professional shoplifters. We knew it, they knew it. It was a game to them and they would work the stores on the big out-of-town shopping complex. Occasionally they would get caught but usually it was a game of security chasing them round as best they could. I remember asking once why they simply didn’t deny them access because surely that would work better? And I was told by my manager that you can’t because the law doesn’t work that way and if they tried it, they’d end up being the bad guys themselves.
My point is this. You can talk about using this software as your right as much as you like. But the Lab’s own rules say you can’t discriminate and the Lab has also apparently said that using Neilife or whatever isn’t against the TOS. So by all means use it and then sit back and wait for the complaints of unfair discrimination to roll into the Lab’s inbox.
And regardless even of that, remember that just as you have the apparent right to say who comes into your land/store, you also have to remember the equal right that people have to decide whether they support your land/store’s policies and to decide whether to give you their custom or your competitors. And as I said earlier, I won’t give my custom to any sim using what I consider to be unethical tools such as this. I don’t support copybotters but I also don’t support any and all methods used to fight them. It may be a token gesture, a prim in the Linden ocean, if I don’t come to your store but maybe enough people will decide they don’t like your policies and it will make a difference.
Someone
Feb 20th, 2010
hahaha IDIOTS. I got around this in 5 mins by modding my clients. Been selling copybotted content for a year, lol loosers. Linden Lab won’t do shit. What I do is take what I want, and modify it enough for me to be able to deny everything. Just use different textures. I get DMCA’s sometimes, but I just counter file. The idiot business people themselves just copy shit from outside of SL. Like other people’s designs. The only difference is that i copy the shit in SL. Fucking hypocrites. Whose shit should i turn into a BYOB today???
Jahar Aabye
Feb 20th, 2010
Senban, courts have actually been fairly clear that private clubs may discriminate if they so choose (look at Augusta Country Club, for example). I’m not defending their practices, simply pointing out that discrimination is not illegal for private clubs in RL.
Now, a public store is obviously going to be slightly different, but even then, one of the main tenets of SecondLife is the right of a land owner to decide who may or may not access their land. Many regions have rules that extend beyond LL’s ToS. For example, they might prohibit certain behavior or prohibit the use of certain scripted items. They might request that visitors keep their script time below a certain level and eject lagatars. There are nude beaches in SL that require visitors to shed any SL clothing before entering (as well as having rules prohibiting lewd behavior).
Some sims hold various games that involve specific rules, and will eject rulebreakers. You mention a prim in a Linden ocean, and that reminded me that when I fly planes over the Blake Sea areas, I have to remember to stay above the 100m altitude deck as requested by the rules notecard at the Hollywood Airport, so as not to bother people sailing below me.
For that matter, you mention overt discrimination, but there are some lesbian regions in SL that state “No Men Allowed.” Are you planning on filing ARs against them, if that is discrimination and against the ToS?
Look, I think BanLink was a stupid idea, and I think that if this system tries to use similar methods, with a blacklist and all of that, then it’s probably going to be a bad idea as well. However, it is the right of the owner of a region to decide who they may or may not allow into that region. I think that there are far better ways to combat copybotting, but please spare us the cries of “discrimination” here. It trivializes RL discrimination, and it shows a clear misunderstanding of the rights that land owners enjoy in SL. A land (or estate) owner may choose to ban any individual for any reason, or to restrict access to only a specific group of individuals for any reason.
The SL Community Standards prohibit intolerance, but you are clearly misunderstanding the difference between intolerant behavior (ie racial/ethnic/nationalist slurs, displaying of symbols like the swastika) and the land owner’s perogatives regarding banning and access limitations on land that they own/rent.
Senban Babii
Feb 21st, 2010
@Jahar Aabye
Thanks for your thoughts. I’ll add a couple of points I think.
You mentioned the issue of private clubs being allowed to discriminate. Unfortunately, this is true to some degree. But increasingly those clubs are coming under fire and being forced to change their policies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allison-kilkenny/philadelphia-private-swim_b_228253.html). Another good example would be the Salvation Army and its well known discrimination against the transgender community (http://texascivilrightsreview.org/phpnuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1309). I can even go further and point out that in the UK, it is illegal to discriminate against people with disabilities (as an example only), even if you are a private club (http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/yourrights/disabilitydiscriminationact/Pages/private_clubs.aspx) But just because certain private clubs and even official bodies have got loopholes in the law which enable them to bypass morality, does not mean that others should look at their example and say “well they do it, so I’ll do it too”.
Now here’s my thinking. Yes, a land owner is allowed to decide who is allowed to access their land and who isn’t. I have no problem with that. I used to have land and used all the access list stuff and so on so I do understand and have experience of the basic idea. But if a land owner’s land is connected to the grid and publicly accessible, then in my opinion, certain grid-wide expectations should be applied, just as if it were a meatworld example.
Okay, wait, I have the analogy I’ve been looking for
Okay, let’s say I own a piece of land in meatlife. I can decide all I want whether to say that people can’t come in if they wear blue sweaters or decide what standards of morality and decency apply so long as they don’t break the wider rules and laws of the society to which my piece of land is connected. What I can’t do is discriminate against people based upon the mode of transport they used to arrive at my land. If someone used a car or if someone used a train or if someone used a futuristic jetpack, it is none of my concern. I can only complain at their behaviour if when they arrive at my piece of land, their actual behaviour isn’t acceptable. I can’t (or shouldn’t) sneer at them or discriminate against them based upon their mode of transport, right? And that goes right back to Mitch Kapor’s example of the discrimination against AOL email addresses or the planned discrimination against certain viewers.
You can’t base your decisions on what car someone drives just as you can’t base your decisions on what email provider someone uses or what viewer they use to transport themselves to the SL grid. Don’t look at whether they use AOL emails, look at the content of their emails to decide whether they are good people or bad people. Don’t look at what viewer they use, look at what they actually *do*.
You raise the example of sims having rules which say what behaviours are acceptable and what behaviours are not acceptable. Absolutely right and proper! You actually provided the example of the lesbian women-only clubs and just like your flying example, people can decide what activities occur in their sim/club/land. But that doesn’t extend to saying whether someone’s mode of transport in arriving at that sim is acceptable or not. Especially when Linden Lab themselves have declared that none of these viewers are against TOS, only the actions that can potentially be carried out. But the same is true of the standard viewer, wouldn’t you say? If I came to your land using the standard viewer and used a standalone copybot thingy then by extension, you should ban all people using the standard viewer as they could potentially be copybotters.
As I said previously, there are things I don’t like about certain viewers that in my personal opinion I don’t believe should be allowed. But the way to change that is by coming up with a valid defensible argument and campaigning to have it changed. You can’t simply declare sections of the grid off-limits to people based on the type of transport they use. You can’t simply take the application of the rules into your own hands, especially when the actual owners and operators of the grid have said that these viewers are acceptable and legal. They’ve set the rules – if you don’t like the rules, Open Sim is thataway —>
“but please spare us the cries of “discrimination” here. It trivializes RL discrimination,”
I’m a diversity officer for my workplace (alongside my actual job). I deal with discrimination issues all the time. Due to my meatlife circumstances, I’ve experienced discrimination. What’s your point?
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 21st, 2010
@someone: すごい話、兄!
GreenLantern Excelsior
Feb 21st, 2010
@ Senban
“But if a land owner’s land is connected to the grid and publicly accessible, then in my opinion, certain grid-wide expectations should be applied, just as if it were a meatworld example.”
The grid-wide rules for Second Life are that you can’t violate the Community Standards or Terms of Service. Beyond that, the rules are up to the landowner. For example, I was once a member of the “Cripple Creek” group. Their sim location is Colorado Territory in 1860. They have a set of rules to make their roleplay more realistic. If you’re going to be an animal, you have to be 100% animal, not an animal-human hybrid. This rule excludes furries from the sim. If you’re going to wear a female avatar, you can’t wear pants, because women didn’t wear pants in those days. If the rules said “No furries allowed because furries are disgusting,” that would be Intolerance under the Community Standards. Since their rules don’t use derogatory or demeaning statements, they can exclude furries.
To use a Real Life example of this system, consider my local NFL football stadium. On game day there are security people at each entrance searching the fans as they come in. If you want to enter the stadium, you must consent to a patdown and a search of your belongings for prohibited items. If you won’t agree to the search, or if you’re carrying something they don’t allow in the stadium, you will be asked to leave. One of their prohibited items is alcohol, because in general, people who drink alcohol get drunk and cause trouble. This doesn’t mean that someone carrying alcohol is automatically labeled a troublemaker. It’s just a rule that has to be followed: If you want to enter, you can’t bring that item with you.
Consider the rules of two private sandboxes in SL. The first one (I don’t remember its name) has a rule that says, simply, “No guns allowed.” In their experience, people with guns go around shooting other people. The second one, Fermi Sandbox, has a similar but better-written rule. It also says “No guns allowed” but goes on to state that guns carried for display purposes are fine. So the holstered gun I carry on my hip would be acceptable, but if I’m also carrying the same gun in my hand, and it’s transparent, then they can assume that I intend to use it. I wouldn’t be able to enter the first sandbox with my holstered gun, but I can be in Fermi all day long and no one will say a thing.
The system we’re talking about is pretty much the same. Just as I can choose to carry a gun in my hand or not, I can choose which SL viewer I’m going to use. If I want to enter someone’s sim and they don’t allow copybot-enabled viewers, then I can relog using the standard SL viewer. If I don’t want to do that, then the sim owner won’t let me enter, and if I do enter, he will kick me out. There’s nothing unfair or discriminatory or wrong about that. His sim, his rules.
There are several important differences between this system and the former BanLink:
1) BanLink was free.
2) BanLink was controlled by a group of landowners, not by one person.
3) If you were a reformed griefer or you were added to BanLink by mistake, you could be removed from the database. I caused that to happen once, and ended up with the person on my friends list as a result of getting his name removed. I’ve also seen someone added to BanLink maliciously and immediately removed.
4) BanLink didn’t operate on the basis of a scripted detection system.
“They’ve set the rules – if you don’t like the rules, Open Sim is thataway —>”
And by the same token, the landowner sets the rules for his own parcel. If you don’t like his rules you can go somewhere else.
“Ahh, corruption already raises its ugly head.
”
You should visit your nearest JLU recruiting office and sign up. They love people like you
Come on, I know you’re better than this. This type of statement is not your style.
Jessica Holyoke
Feb 21st, 2010
My problem with all this is that it sounds too much like “you have something that can be used illegally, therefore you must be wanting to use it illegally.” But people can own all sorts of items that can be used illegally; guns, cars, bondage equipment. And that doesn’t mean that they will use those items illegally.
LMAO
Feb 21st, 2010
BAhaHAHAha
what a bunch of morons. that FAG ‘skills douchebag’ or watever his name is, is ripping all you idiots off. haha. it’s a scam. the coding used to detect these viewers has already been fixed by said ‘illegal’ viewer creators. i was just in Luck/Insilico/etc/etc to test skill’s piece of shit ‘detection’ with 3 copybotting viewers, and guess what, IT DIDN’T DO SHIT. LMAO
but don’t worry, skills is laughing at all you fags for giving him your money.
My 2 Cents
Feb 21st, 2010
Balderdash… As so many have mentioned, Just another copybot dector that dosent work.. Skillz should have a disclaimer, “will detect modified emerald viewers..” As most of the Viewers that have been modded to do such horriable things have been based on the emerald viewer. Which my opinion is it’s a fat bloated laggy client more interisted in collecting YOUR info.. Skillz is just pissy that others took Emerald and made it better.. But not to worry, 10 min after Skillz started selling the dector, there were already viewers being handed out that cant be detected.. But Glad there was some money to be made.. They can pay for their bandwidth to download more C compliers from torrent sites and music from limewire..
Somebody
Feb 22nd, 2010
An example of a likely false positive:
http://rors-rags2riches.blogspot.com/2010/02/i-have-been-banned.html
Even if it isn’t a false positive, its a good example as to why these systems suck.
I for one am boycotting any shop I know uses this system, not that I use any of these clients. I just don’t like sim owners that depend on this crap. In my opinion this is no better then the JLU’s system and that banlink crap.
I think I will start by never ever shopping at Magika, Deviant Kitties, Starlight Starbright, and ATOMIC all of which use this stupid system. I especially am disgusted by Sabina who is owner of Magika. Every sim I find has this system I am boycotting.
Tina Maier
Feb 22nd, 2010
I was curious and bought the system. It is not even worth the effort. Using newest Neillife version did nothing in my shop. I went to the shopowner who told on x-street how great this is and fooled around there- still nothing. If you shut down the clothing protection, radar chat and all special emerald features, you would even be detected as using a normal client. Copying textures and exporting objects is done clientside and is not detectable. So this device is just some sort of viligantism, and the best part is that creators of griefer tools like darling brody and ariu ara (normally fighting each other bad) are singing a hymn on this.
In dubio pro reo is a term of law in germany, but hey, we are at the wild west, aren`t we? Boom Boom!!!!