The Artemis Fate Interview: Justice League is Unnecessary and Overzealous

by Alphaville Herald on 18/09/11 at 8:34 pm

Longtime SL resident asks Linden Lab for statement on anti-griefer groups' limits

by Robble Rubble

[In Robble Rubble's exclusive interview with Artemis Fate, Ms. Fate - a respected class-of-2003 resident - points out that the Justice League Unlimited and similar anti-griefer vigilante groups are superfluous and attract exactly the sort of behaviors they claim to fight. She goes on to ask Linden Lab for a statement on exactly what is fair game for the vigilante groups and what should be off limits. - the Editrix]

Artemis
Artemis Fate

Robble Rubble: So you've been on the grid a long time, can I ask what brought you to Second Life?
Artemis Fate: I used to be on Active worlds a little bit, I had came across it in the summer of 2003, but it was pretty rough then and I looked over it. Decided to try it in October of the same year and ended up getting really into it. Been around ever since.

Robble Rubble: Very nice, that's a long history on the grid. Can you give some insight into it? What sort of things do you spend time doing? What projects do you work on? What's your biggest accomplishments or even failures? Do you like long walks on the beach?
Artemis Fate: Insight into the history of the grid? It's changed rapidly while at the same time staying much the same. I used to be a builder, but I haven't done much in a while, due to moving from college into the 9-5 work world. My main project has been Nexus Prime, which has been on hold for a while, but there's some stuff in the works now that mesh is around. And sure, why not.

Robble Rubble: So it's safe to assume you are familiar with the recent controversy about the Justice League Unlimited?
Artemis Fate: And the two before that.

Artemis 3
Artemis Fate believes the JLU has violated the spirit of the ToS

Robble Rubble: Let's not get too ahead of ourselves, can you tell me about your first awareness of the JLU? How did you hear about these people?
Artemis Fate: One of them came into Nexus Prime on a call, I'm not sure if someone had a communicator or if they were just patrolling. Nikola Shirakawa, who was a Green Lantern at the time.

Robble Rubble: Was this a positive or negative experience for you?
Artemis Fate: Largely negative, I didn't need an outside group using shields and other scripted tools to handle attacks when I could use sim tools. I ended up having to force her out of the sim since she was surprised that I wouldn't want their help. Afterwards Kalel Venkman IMed me saying much of the same and pointing out rather absurdly that the sim would be unprotected without their help. I asked them to not come around here, and apparently they did add Nexus Prime to their list of sims "not to patrol".

Robble Rubble: What sort of words would you use to describe the Justice League Unlimited and their practices?
Artemis Fate: I'd describe the Justice League itself as unnecessary, and their practices as overzealous.

Robble Rubble: That's a lot less four letter words than I would use.

Robble Rubble: Were there any other interactions with the JLU in Nexis Prime?
Artemis Fate: I'm sure they're generally good people on their own, and that they have good intentions, but together they're going overboard.
Artemis Fate: After that first one I never heard about them in Nexus Prime again, so I'm assuming they kept to their word.

Robble Rubble: What is it that caused you to to get involved in the recent discussions about the Justice League Unlimited on the SLUniverse and Second Citizen MKII boards?
Artemis Fate: The presence of a wiki had been something that was rumored about them the first I heard about them, it was interesting to see proof of it after the first leak, and how it evolved after every leak after that.

Robble Rubble: Have you ever felt you were a target of the JLU? Have you been contacted in world by any of the JLU members since the recent public backlash over the latest round of brainiac wiki leaks?
Artemis Fate: If I ever was, I was never aware of it. They don't have an article for me as far as I know, only a few mentions here and there.

Robble Rubble: What do you think will be accomplished by bringing this issue to the public?
Artemis Fate: I simply would want LL to make an official statement regarding the operation of anti-griefer groups in SL, what they can do, what they can't do.

Robble Rubble: I see that you have Greenlantern Excelsior to task on numerous occasions, what is your opinion on GLE's quality of damage control?
Artemis Fate: Poor.

Robble Rubble: heh

Robble Rubble: Do you think GLE's apologies are credible or are nothing more than that of an apology due to being caught, similar to what happened when Zenmondo was caught in the thread?
Artemis Fate: I don't think I've seen GLE apologize for anything.

Robble Rubble: He does seem adept at wiggling out of that.
Artemis Fate: At most, I've seen him say he regretted the comment regarding sending Nebula a threatening e-mail. [:0]

Robble Rubble: Do you have any questions you have or would have asked the JLU that remain unanswered, and if so would you care to share them with me? Any thoughts on why Kalel has refused to respond to most accusations himself?
Artemis Fate: The most obvious one would be why some of this information is necessary, and why measures haven't been taken to review and verify information put in the wiki for accuracy and necessity.
Artemis Fate: As for Kalel, I don't know. I haven't talked to him much outside of that one contact so many years ago, he seems paranoid and used to being in control now. I imagine it's a bit like Joseph McCarthy, who GLE seems to like so much, who was afraid to bring Charlie Chaplin to stand, knowing he'd lampoon him, so he revoked his right to re-enter the US when he was out of the country.
Artemis Fate: And if there's one thing serious men like that can't stand, it's being made fun of.

Robble Rubble: He does get his tights in a bunch over the smallest things.
Artemis Fate: That does seem to be the case.

Robble Rubble: So do you think the Justice League Unlimited have done anything to violate the Second Life terms of service or the community standards? Because at the end of the day, while people are screaming about ethical dilemnas, legal threats, letters to daytime television hosts and FBI investigations, do you think there is even a chance of making Linden Lab take action?
Artemis Fate: In terms of the letter of the ToS? I'm not sure. In terms of the spirit? Definitely. As per whether Linden Lab would take action, keep in mind that alt-detection and IP grabbing were not necessarily against the ToS until they were made so due to the community outrage.

Robble Rubble: Do you think that JLU members linking to their KryptonRadio blog while simultaniously ARing and getting people removed from search for posting links to blogs critical of them demonstrates any sort of bias that the Lab has in their favor?
Artemis Fate: No, I don't think so. From the evidence I've seen, they once were able to sway more than a few lindens to their cause, but that day seems to have passed, now they talk about in their meetings that none of the Lindens will pay attention to them.

Robble Rubble: In the SLU thread you were talking about an experiment with an alt, Night Sun, could you tell me about that?
Artemis Fate: That was around the same time as the last leak. People were claiming that the JLU was ARing them for being critical of the group. I decided to test out the theory myself using an old alt I had made but never used. I made a sign that was critical of the JLU but not violating any part of the ToS. I actually had a discussion with GLE through the alt and he agreed that it wasn't against the ToS (this didn't stop him from ARing it however). Then I basically sat around and waited to see what would happen.

Robble Rubble: What ended up happening?
Artemis Fate: I got suspended for disclosure. I decided to try again, this time changing the sign from a link to the leaked wiki to a Herald article chosen for no disclosing material. I got suspended again for Disclosure after that. So I removed links to anything in general, and left just the sign. I was suspended for defamation at that point.

Artemis 2
Artemis Fate: "Linden Lab has been a mystery in their actions"

Robble Rubble: So what are your thoughts on JLU members linking their KryptonRadio blog in world, a blog that often discloses the RL names of their critics and is full of articles that seem to be written with the intention of grandstanding and defaming their critics?
Artemis Fate: Well, the disclosure suspensions were referenced to linking to the wiki. I think if LL is doing suspensions for material hosted outside of SL, that's a pretty grey area. I don't think people should be suspended for what they say outside of SL, but at the same time I can understand the problems with having a link to a site in world that's full of readily available disclosing information. All in all, I think that the Linden who suspended for it was wrong, not that it was wrong to link that site in world.

Robble Rubble: Do you think that the recent calls of people to contact outside intervention (FBI, Scotland Yard, Ellen lol) will have any effect without Linden Lab taking direct action?
Artemis Fate: I think any outside authority besides Linden Lab would and should disregard it entirely. On the scale of utter travesties of justice that require their attention, this is extremely low ranking (Even for Ellen).

Robble Rubble: Do you have any recomendations on how people can get Linden Lab to take action?
Artemis Fate: I really don't, in all this time Linden Lab has been a mystery in their actions. Sometimes they let things slide, and other times they crack down hard. I do think, however, that they are very aware of this, and have probably already thought out what actions they might or might not take and how it would effect the community and their ToS.

Robble Rubble: What do you think about the fact that a common red herring to many of the criticisms that are posed to the JLU are that they come from people they consider to be "griefers"? And in that light if the fact that many former members of Woodbury, W-hat or members of The Wrong Hands, openly admit to many of the wrongs they have done in the past, do you think that those people's criticisms of the behavior of the Justice League Unlimited should be discarded simply because they were or are admitted griefers?
Artemis Fate: I think no one's point should be disregarded because of their background, if they can make a good point.

Robble Rubble: Some argue that the behavior of the JLU actually creates more griefers on the grid than they prevent due to the collateral damage of innocents being considered guilty by association, getting banned, then returning to the grid as griefers when they previously would not have done so had it not been for the JLU action. What do you think of this theory?
Artemis Fate: I think the JLU make for amusing targets for griefers, which in itself keeps ones around who would otherwise get bored. I know that a lot of the people in Woodbury and otherwise didn't really grief either, but just were involved in a group that was known for it, and they got caught up in a ban for that too. I have no idea if that kind of collateral damage theory is true, but it sounds reasonable.

Robble Rubble: Artemis, I thank you for your time, but before you go. What are your predictions about how this will ultimately end?
Artemis Fate: I honestly couldn't say, during the Emerald fiasco, I was thinking LL would let it slide again, like they had so many times before. Instead they cracked down on the viewer hard and took it apart in a matter of a week or two. For this, I don't know. I'm hoping at the very least they'll make a statement regarding it.

207 Responses to “The Artemis Fate Interview: Justice League is Unnecessary and Overzealous”

  1. Pepper Meiler

    Jan 20th, 2012

    “SLU owner and his Buddy JN have done this type of things more Maliciously than the JLU ever has. Little owner boy over on SLU forums allows JN to get ahold of people IP address’s and then they can track down people they don’t like and harrrass them.”

    “The Pink Hands is a Joke since several of their members support Documentig of others just as the JLU and then some of their members also support griefing.”

    “Also your a poster over on SLU you know JN and others Document and Find out all they can about people.”

    @ James Doh — are you high?

  2. Tux

    Jan 20th, 2012

    @ JD

    ‘Lets look at Nexus and all with his little website where he had posted all the JLU members and other people who they felt they could harrass’s Address and Personal Information on the web’

    Are you referring to TheList pages? If so it wasn’t N3X15. If not what are you talking about?

    ‘Thats why Tux and Don’t spill and others still comment on these things and call other people stupid or Noobs when some one says they haven’t has issues with the JLU.’

    IMO a noob is someone who does not know how the game works, how to set up the software, and/or does not correctly spec their equipment for the application. It has absolutely nothing to do with the JLU. I was highlighting the fact that the JLU are exploiting these people. Thus justifying their reason to appease their fetish and wear lycra (albeit virtual) whilst collecting their data. Which by the way hasn’t stopped. I had hoped that they might have learnt something this time, but no the wiki is still there and still being updated (which is more than can be said for their security).

    I have no doubt another leak will come this year (assuming it has not been done already).

    ‘Its the same deal here with everyone up in arms wanting to know who I am.’

    Some of us already know, we just don’t care.

    JD, are you Ok today? Your writing quality has degraded somewhat from the norm. I would hate to think something is wrong. Keep you chin up and carry on regardless, you are doing wonders for googles revised ranking system. You’ll keep this story current for ages.

  3. Dontspill McGinnis

    Jan 20th, 2012

    @ James D’oh

    Now there you go again proving me right. Thank you.

    You are again throwing vague accusations around that you can’t support… What a surprise… Its almost like you write for Krypton Radio or something

    Whats worse is that you are trying to use this to justify for the actions of the JLU.

    There is NO justification.

  4. LOL

    Jan 21st, 2012

    Most “Old Skool” members of Second Life know the JLU and Kalel is still very much involved with online I.D. Theft in Second Life, but we also all know that the JLU spends alot, if not all, of thier allowence on Second Life as well.

    Now lets take a look at the company that owns and operates the game we all love hate, Second Life. Linden Lab is your typical Company, the Let hand does not care what the Right hand is doing, all that really matters to Phil Rosedale is the financial department of his virtual reality. Linden Reasurch inc. based in The City of London, which is known to be the place where ALL Large companies set up when they wish to be sheltered from Tax laws in the United states including such other criminal enterprises as De’ Beers, the Diamon People.

    Knowing that fact one can easily see that the only thing that matters to Linden Lab, and it’s creator Phil Rosedale is what just abut every company in the world cares about, PROFIT. I have been on SL for the better part of 5 years, and one trend I have noticed with SL is that if you spend enough $USD onthe game, Linden Lab basicly lets you do anything you want, including using a third party website to harvest and exploit it’s users prifate information and Payment methods.

    So is it any suprize to anyone here that Linden lab has let the JLU connintinue thier mall cop antics just so far as Kalel Venkman keeps sending Linden Research his allowance?

  5. Gundel Gaukelei

    Jan 22nd, 2012

    Zombie wars – the last poor souls trapped in the forsaken realm of Stalelife fighting each other over nothing.

  6. Bunjie

    Jan 22nd, 2012

    @Gundel Gaukelei

    “Zombie wars – the last poor souls trapped in the forsaken realm of Stalelife fighting each other over nothing.”

    Did you fail your biology class? is that why you can only make comparisons through ‘brain dead’ popular culture?

    I like zombie culture too but I’d not compare residents wishing to save an old creative platform from the hand of it’s aging master to that, if anything Linden Lab is a master whom whips and beats it’s slaves while systematically abusing anyone who does something for it or through it for it’s own financial gain, read a book though preferably not the book of the dead.

    We’ve seen time and time again that Linden Lab will take what it wants from you, your ideas, creativity and life and repack it for what ever purpose, just look at what Plexus did for Kalel by taking someones objects that Kalel was envious of and redistributing them in the JLU’s hands, which is almost like some kind of payoff and is a total abuse of power on Plexus Lindens side before we even get close to all the stuff he did after that.

    But what can you do when the TOS is on their side and they don’t care about you, copyright or what you’ve invested? and just left people like Kalel to run wild without oversight or with secret oversight that breeds the behavior and never wishes to own up to it’s mistakes, even now Plexus wont admit he made mistakes even when he went to visit Prokofy and got branded a griefer or some shit, he didn’t feel ‘silly’ it’s like hes in total denial or he just don’t give a fuck.

    So just because your interest or life is over on the Linden Lab platform that does not mean it’s the same for everyone else, I’m semi over as I’m swaying into Opensim in order to finish my ideas in my own time and move on, I still love the concept of the platform it’s something I’ve grown with and it’s not something I would put away just like other games / software sticks with me it’s a part of my life that helps me visualize and create.

    Also mesh is one step towards keeping upto date with the wider experiences the next generation expects, however it’s long over due for Linden Lab to remake Second Life completely, I’ve played better MMOs that have rebuilt the game / environment to keep up with what people expect and LL is far behind the next generations culture, adding patch and mod after patch and mod is not going to save Second Life only a full rebuild and port / tie in / onto a platform like xbox or ps3-4 will keep it alive for longer.

    Second Life should have aimed for the DLC where you download it to your ps3 and get to keep it regardless of what grid you travel on or weather you get banned from Linden Labs grid, it would have reduced the loading lag tremendously and opened the environment up to better development where Linden Lab could have ran the servers in the cloud as an on demand service with multiples thereof and getting revenue from those who buy premium for sub environments / games on the platform.

    If they’re running that kind of system, then there’s no reason why some content could not be shared with your friends list, but encrypted in such a way that it’s only used to speed up seeing your friends avatars when you join a Linden hosted environment.

    If they can rename resident accounts by hiding it, then it’s nothing to rename a sim as if you’re on the primary and just list them as their uuids in the code.

    Though remaking it doesn’t always work, I know because I used to play RO and people hated it when it went 3D from 2D sprites it lost the character that we’d grown up with, but I’ve no doubt the next generation enjoyed it somewhat but it was not the success it could have been, either it was badly timed or it wrecked the style and people could not covert themselves, just like how Linden Lab wrecked the viewer and residents could not convert themselves over to the new style.

    New generations come after you that’s the concept of ‘life’ that which wishes to experience and learn what you did but through their generations perspective and right now they want mobile games and console / ipad things.

    So you’re right on stalelife upto a point because they’ve not really kept up with technology regardless of what they’ve added it’s still lags and it’s architecture is made so that can’t scale just like Valve fucked up with the free to play TF2 by not upgrading and investing in the VAC servers, so people get kicked from games because the security / asset / item servers are full of freemium noobs trying to connect.

    So once again an environment is supposed to appeal to the next generation therefor ‘life’ continues on / with in the service but Linden Lab is failing to retain new generations, I believe the teen merger was a marker for their desperation of retaining a younger audience those who might have more liquid capital because they truly do live at their parents home but also might work.

    One other primary issue has always been selfishness and egos, many residents try to peak and become FIC’s etc because they see others doing the same, but put nothing back to help the next generation grow or learn from them, many residents try to help but when they find out those above them are complete assholes who abuse the power of speech / perspective like Prokofy they inherently give up.

    I’ve come to learn Woodbury and others like TWH has been more about pointing out the selfish hypocrites / violators of peoples privacy and just plan removing that shell people build around themselves so as not to have to put anything back into the platform other than the shit they spew through it for their own egos than in any way true griefing.

    Now I’m sure they might have done something at some point but I’ve been watching a while, what I don’t know I can’t obviously say but my perspective is that Kalel and Linden Lab did them wrong and wont own up to it because they have no path to accountability and are scared shitless of legal reputations.

    So those that brand them as such are likely the true social griefers who abuse others for their own gain, be that power, ego, wealth.

    And further on the path concept lets not forget Linden Lab has never given a path, people are people and they expect a class system to follow like all other environments provide a progression but that doesn’t need to be a leveling system, just a job guide / path and a way to show off things they themselves consider an achievement..

    Even if the goals are not specified the jobs should be laid out and your accounts should state you’re a specific profession not just in text you add yourself, which is one reason why some bad / lazy people became mentors for the title and the title alone just like Kalel who became one to abuse it and use it to get close to Lindens.

  7. slutrix

    Dec 16th, 2012

    Ah, don’t you love vigilantes, the euphemism for morons who think they are entitled (yes, we’re talking about a sense of entitlement) to act as unsolicited cops where normally the Powers that Be and the tools available to land owners are more than enough to maintain order?

    If someone tries to cause trouble on my land, I know full well how to deal with it. I can eject and ban him/her and there are also abuse reports. I have every right to do so, I have used these tools and they were pretty damn effective. I can also set specific permissions for my land (object entry and creation, script running etc) and I have full privileges to manage my land in any way I see fit.

    This means, of course, that I have no need whatsoever for vigilantes that act in the same disruptive way as the members of that Greek “political party” named “Golden Dawn“. Because that’s the only parallel that can be currently drawn between the JLU and anything in RL.

    Personally, I have a ban list that not only includes the griefers and trolls I’ve encountered in SL, but also all vigilantes that basically peddle “protection”, regardless of how they choose to name their groups.

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