The Alphaville Herald

435 Responses to “Interview with Anonymous, on Alphaville’s Bondage, Discipline & Sadomasochism Community”

1. 

   Shawn Man X
   

   Dec 20th, 2003
   

   “About Children

   This game is not intended for children under the age of 13. You consent to the following:

   I understand that if my child registers for the Game, he or she will provide personal information to EA during registration. I understand that when my child plays the Game and uses Game related services (including message boards and chat), my child will participate in online chat with other people, post and receive information from Game related message boards, receive communications from EA, and may complete voluntary surveys and participate in contests or other events. EA may collect information concerning my child’s play experience and other data related to the Game, and this information may be collected actively (by a direct request) or passively (by simply recording information about my child’s activities). I hereby grant permission to EA to collect this information and to store the personal information of my child in its databases.

   I further consent to my child’s disclosure of personal information about him or herself and others in the Game and through the use of Game related services, including message boards, chat, contests, and surveys.

   By accepting this User Agreement and registering your copy of the Game, you consent to your child’s participation in the Game and to EA’s use, collection, storage and disclosure of information about your child as stated above.

   A Player’s Disclosure of An Age 12 or Under On Your Account May Lead to Termination of Your Account

   We strongly discourage the disclosure of personal information during game play, and we strongly discourage use of the Game by children under 13.

   If EA discovers that someone is playing on your Account and disclosing his or her age as 12 or under, EA may suspend your Account and ask you to sign a form confirming consent to your child’s participation in the Game and to his or her disclosure of personal information. Until we have confirmation of the above, we may not release your Account. If we do not hear from you within thirty (30) days, we may terminate your Account. You are responsible for all subscription fees while your Account is suspended.

   YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT IF A CHILD DISCLOSES HIS OR HER AGE ON TSO OR TSO RELATED SERVICES WHILE USING YOUR ACCOUNT, EA MAY TERMINATE YOUR ACCOUNT AT EA’S SOLE DISCRETION.

   YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT IF A PLAYER ON YOUR ACCOUNT DISCLOSES HIS OR HER AGE AS TWELVE YEARS OLD OR YOUNGER, EA MAY TERMINATE YOUR ACCOUNT REGARDLESS OF THE ACTUAL AGE OF THE PLAYER.

   It is solely your responsibility to prevent your child from playing and/or disclosing his or her age and personal information during use of TSO and TSO related services.

   We do not promise to monitor communications during the Game, and we do not pre-screen content in the Game, on message boards or other chat. It is your responsibility to monitor what your child sees, does, and says online, not EA’s. However, we may take the above action when it is reported that young children are playing the Game and disclosing their age. We encourage players to make such reports to EA through Game support, or to the complaint e-mail address for the area in which the incident occurred. We are not responsible for failing to discover disclosures or receive complaints, or failing to suspend or terminate Accounts at any particular time or at all.”

   It seemed relevent to a couple of the statments made, most notably the account removal for an admitance of being under 12, but any one over 13 can go any where in ther world they want to.
2. 

   RB
   

   Dec 20th, 2003
   

   EA does not care. they never have. there are lots of people who should’nt be in TSO because of thier age. Just throwing together everyone and mixing up all the age groups is a bad idea if you ask me. There should be age specific cities.

   - RB
3. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Dec 20th, 2003
   

   I would VIGOROUSLY oppose making Alphaville the “adults only server” although I think a discussion should be opened up about making such a server. Why? Because we founders who formed other neighborhoods, a variety of non-BDSM neighborhoods like Sim Arts or others, *were here first*. I personally will push back against the BDSM riot, and I think others will, too. They were pushed out of other cities because people found them too disturbing, and found AV a permissive environment, precisely because a) some of the most creative and intellectual long-term gamers are in AV and b) AV had already been terrorized by the Sim Shadow Government so that the timid and the disgusted were already out of the game.

   Far from letting BDSM entirely take over AV, I think they should go to some dead city like Dan’s Grove. But let’s also go over what BDSM says *in its own words* from your very helpful interview just to raise the larger philosophical issues of whether BDSM represents a cult or a closed, violent society which adherents of a democratic, open society should oppose on moral or philosophical grounds, which is their right, without being called “bigots” and “flamers”. Let me rehearse what we’ve gleaned from Anonymous:

   “i think that there are a lot of very damaged people in the bdsm community of av…searching to find something to fix them…”

   Er, why should I turn over my virtual world to a lot of very damaged people? Hello?

   We’ve also confirmed that there is a debate in this community between those who think they are “real” and do real BDSM in real life, and those who are just roleplayers, and that those who are just roleplayers *find themselves under pressure* from those who are hard-core.

   We’ve also learned there are educational centers, lectures, people who write about BDSM in their profiles, and roam about the city at will.

   Well, duh, that *is* recruiting. That *is* what I mean by recruiting, and you don’t have to block out my name with a “zzzzz” Mr. Anti-Censorship, Mr. Citizen Kane, you can say it’s DYERBROOK who has raised this matter as a public concern, *as is my right*.

   We’ve also learned that there are people in this lifestyle who think and act as if women are inferior. Um, we’re supposed to swallow THAT??? Why? Is that in keeping with the letter and spirit of the TOS? My beef with BDSM is precisely this: it is a perversion not because it has people having sex differently in private — that isn’t my business — but because it says it is “an entire way of life* and perverts the generally accepted value of equality between people, by claiming people voluntarily accept dominion. Do they? How can we be sure that their voluntary acceptance of slavery isn’t a function of their status as damaged people. We’ve been told that a) in many cases, seriously damaged people play BDSM games and do it in RL; b) people within BDSM are themselves under pressure from the hard-core people in their own community to be more “real” c)people in BDSM, especially the newbie trainee subs, are unable to provide us straight answers because if we every HAVE a question about someone’s voluntary submission or any problem with them, we’re to go to their masters, mind our manners, etc. and never to them and d) we are labeled harassers and bigots if we express any concern about points a-c, utterly silencing our legitimate expression of concern. That seems awfully fishy to me. But let’s go on…again…”in their own words” — we find this:

   “Gor is a bit like a cult”. A bit? Only Gor? Who is to know?

   Or let’s take this lovely exemplar of mafia-style totalitarian thinking:

   “it’s like any family…there is always squabbling between siblings…but when someone comes in from the outside to cause trouble…we band together…

   Anonymous: if i get a message from Lady Julianna about such-and-such sub being a problem and they should be banned from my property…i do it, no questions”

   Oh, you do? No questions? No establishment of the truth? No checking of the facts? Merely out of loyalty to your tribe, without granting that someone might have a legitimate inquiry about the very troublesome violent RL activities of some “very damaged people”? Hello? That is mob justice. You “band together” like a tribe, a club, even a cult against those “vicious” outsiders. Could that ever be the root of injustice, do you think? It often is.

   Once again, I would oppose the banning of BDSM, the banning of adult lots, the censorship of speech in TSO. I do, however, believe a discussion could be opened up about moving BDSM to separate server/city, and I believe the way to counter troublesome, closed-society secretive activity in the game is to push back with moral suasion, open debate, and expression of opinion.

   Since my other post laying out more of my troubles with the philosophy of BDSM is buried, I would urge readers to go look at my comments under the interview with Snow White.

   What we now have on the table is that BDSM is not merely a sex act, not merely a RP, but *a whole way of life* as this and other informants tell us. It does no good for air-headed hard-leftists to yammer on about how we should be tolerant of BDSM as we would GLBT, that it is a “lifestyle” choice, or that parents should do their own policing of children. What we have *in their own words* from BDSM adherents is that we face a serious problem in our virtual world, one not only about children, and it should not be allowed to spread unchallenged. See my own site for interviews with minors and other players in the game that indicate that minors frequently lie about their age and “pass” and that while they may have the good sense to stay away from a violent cult, they certainly are exposed to it merely by going to an ordinary vanilla contest on an ordinary skill lot because of the profiles, play-acting, and activities of those in the BDSM community.

   Should BDSM stay on their own lots in a segregated community, or another server entirely? Let’s have that discussion, because I personally don’t want a violent totalitarian cult to spread on the Internet and gain fresh recruits.
4. 

   Master Bam
   

   Dec 20th, 2003
   

   Lady Juliana is REALLY Ugly in RL and so is Innonomous if she wanted to be a Full time Sub she wouldent be able to find a “Master” but a measly trash can.
5. 

   ShawnManX
   

   Dec 21st, 2003
   

   The closest example to a BDSM community out side of TSO is the one portraid on CSI in a few of its episodes, and I was wondering how simular the two are.
6. 

   Confused
   

   Dec 21st, 2003
   

   There’s something I just don’t *get* about this Sims Online stuff. Sure, I like to have a virtual representation of me hang out with representations of other people and chat about stuff. Except I don’t pay anything for it, and I can actually do things in-game that are not possible in RL, such as kicking a lot of zombie ass or finding long-lost artifacts. Yes, I play Neverwinter Nights.

   I actually used to hang out at a BDSM server, I met a lot of great people, never did any explicit stuff, and never had any trouble. Why would people want to *pay* for this stuff?

   In conclusion, I do not have a conclusion. Also, Penny Arcade rocks.
7. 

   Storm/Devvin/Whatever the hell else you wanna call me
   

   Dec 22nd, 2003
   

   First off, on the comments of the BDSM community, I personally think it is not a great choice of lifestyle, and I prefer free thinking But on the other hand it is there choice, and it is there feelings if they want to, so I never hold it against someone that they are a sub or a dom/ess . That is there choice, and I truly feel those that hold it against them are the ones not mature enough to play this game, not minors, since I have met many minors that are smarter than 30 year olds, and are more mature than 30 year olds.

   Dyerbrook, in response to your comment about the Sim Shadow Government harrasing people out of Alphaville (first) I would just like to say what comes around goes around, and what you got, which wasn’t a whole lot, was most likely deserved. (Second)Telling lies and slandering others that have done nothing, when only a few fools/dumbass’s have caused you trouble, is horrible, and I don’t even wanna start on it, the issue is dead, period, so stop spreading the flames.

   and lastly, just since I enjoy snide remarks to BAM, you have no grounds to talk about Julianna (yes, an immature comment, who cares lol )
8. 

   digitaldust
   

   Dec 22nd, 2003
   

   The skinny on the sims
   Worth watching I think. The Alphaville Herald a news paper for reporting the seedier underbelly of one of the Sims city servers, and there’s plenty of it. It’s run by…
9. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Dec 22nd, 2003
   

   I imagine Prof. Ludlow didn’t want his page to degenerate to intra-TSO flame wars, but this flame deserves some stamping on. I don’t know who Storm or Devvin is, or what rank he holds in the SSG, but let me note that this kind of comment: “what you got, which wasn’t a whole lot, was most likely deserved” is the sort of threat — not so veiled — to which we have long grown accustomed from this dubious organization. Oh, the destruction of my lot with a malicious roomie, turning my tiles into an obscene cartoon, and filling me with red links isn’t “much”? OK, I can live with it. Show me what you got, tough guy. I will never delete.

   As for this: “(Second)Telling lies and slandering others that have done nothing, when only a few fools/dumbass’s have caused you trouble, is horrible” — that’s the typical kind of non-answer we’ve also grown accustomed to seeing from the Shadows — the old “plausible deniability”. There is no refutation of any of the alleged “lies” — there’s the claim — belied by testimony from numerous sims and live game-play screen shots — that this is just a “a few rogue agents”. Baloney. It is a conspiracy. It is conscious. It is evil. And we will declare it as such.

   So, Storm, re: your rush to defend Lady Julianna — are you the “high-level SSG official” who is “into” BDSM, we are told by a high-level BDSM leader? Not suprising.
10. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 22nd, 2003
    

    um, I don’t mind the discussion, but I wish we could keep this thread clear for the BDSM discussion and pick up the complaints about SSG elsewhere — e.g. in the context of one of the interviews with Snow White or Mia Wallace. Dyerbrook, I know you think these (ssg and bdsm) are connected, but then let’s at least focus on the alleged connection here and save the general venting against ssg for other threads. Just a suggestion. Sound reasonable?
11. 

    Storm
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    Sorry about that Uri

    As for the plausible deniability Dyerbrook, just let it rest…I mean geeze, you have one tag on you, from who I have no clue. Whatever happened to you, no one cares about anymore, and stop living off a figment of your own stimulated imagination believing people actually give a crud (which I know so far about 3 in AV do)
12. 

    Storm
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    and no Dyerbrook you oversized fool – someone who is guilty of all the crimes you named against us – but add on the Gossip/Slandering. Me into BDSM? LOL, no I am not thank you very much…but two can play your messed up games, and I’m sorry Uri for dragging this seriously off topic – Dyerbrook, grow up, despite your big words that you use, I can tell your still immature deep down. Good god, why are you starting gossip about me? I have never even heard of BDSM before I came to AV – I am not into Cyber Sex, I am not into TSO dating period. I come to this game for fun – a retreat from the bullshit of real life – and to get away from the fools like you who believe in gossiping/slandering in public places

    P.S. – Sorry Uri, this is the last I will post on this, I will not condone this fool’s posts any longer:)
13. 

    Lady DeMary
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    First of all I would like to say that I commend one for trying to get the word out there about O/our community as a whole. Trying to feel out what W/we are about is better then judging the book by its preverbial cover. My opinion of BDSM has greatly changed after coming to AV… I would not even have given it a 2nd thought prior to learning the “lifestyle” and not just the “kinks”. Yes it is a way of life.. just as any other thing you see everyday.. christians, catholics, democrats…republicans.. alcoholics anonymous..the list can be endless… everything .. every aspect in everyones life has a “way of life” about it…and are given free rights if they so choose it. So trying to pin the negative points only to what you have read is truely sad for you. I too will defend Lady Julianna… first saying that She at least has taught more positive then most can say of O/our community… Her looks? An old saying… “beauty is only skin deep.. but ugly to the bone” perhaps should be read by the one who thinks he has the rite to judge anyone based on his opinion of Her looks. O/our lifestyle is not forced on A/anyone.. yes W/we band together if attacked…. who doesn’t.. show Me one group of people that does not protect their own. Open minds are a must in todays world… if you don’t have one…. then don’t come in here preaching your way to U/us…. for W/we allow A/all who wish answers…room to speak. W/we do not close doors just because of how you look.. or what you believe is right or wrong. Perhaps there is drama more so in O/our community.. but just as RL.. it is because W/we actually do get to know O/one another on a more intense basis then some of you could only wish for. If you don’t like the food then stay out of O/our kitchen. ::stands and applauds for Uri:: Thank You for trying to enlighten some… and for having the courage to be so open minded. Good Day and Happy Holidays to Y/you and Y/yours!
14. 

    brigit
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    i don’t remember lately the BDSM Community or any other one for that matter trying to get all of the ignorant people banned to another city … nor thrown out of the game……and if so i suppose it would have included a couple of people posting here…..coughBam…coughDyerbrook….

    it is a sad day when we are told to step back into another time….one where there were no choices for our lifestyles…..be they BDSM or anything else….

    i only feel sorry for someone so miserable that they strike out at another for what they consider to be something they are not interested in…and for Your information the BDSM Community polices its own constantly for children trying to get into homes or the lifestyle……the word is sent around when a child is suspected of trying to enter this alternative lifestyle either to learn or join……and all attempts are made to assure no children can be subjected to this….

    Now to poke fun at someones appearence …. *shakes head*….this is one of the most childish things i have seen…..inexcusable and more than ignorant…..much much more….anyone seeing those type of comments must surely know they are dealing with an uneducated hothead with a miserable life…..

    As previously posted in this thread…..we in our BDSM Community get to know each other very well and it is more than a game of TSO SIMS to us …. we cry with one another when we lose a loved one.. our personal lives are shared and the covers come off as our friendships build….

    Yes we will back each other up….we are now and will remain a consenting group of adults intent on RP the way we want it…..we do not push it down Your throat …nor do we do childish things such as running around trying to TAG those in the lifestyle……so pick up Your spray can and instead of TAGGING….why not create a beautiful mural somewhere….and leave those of us who do not seek You out to the ADULT ROLEPLAY …and You go on in Your own little closed world….safe and secure in the knowledge that there will be no chance to further Your ignorance….
15. 

    brigit
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    i don’t remember lately the BDSM Community or any other one for that matter trying to get all of the ignorant people banned to another city … nor thrown out of the game……and if so i suppose it would have included a couple of people posting here…..coughBam…coughDyerbrook….

    it is a sad day when we are told to step back into another time….one where there were no choices for our lifestyles…..be they BDSM or anything else….

    i only feel sorry for someone so miserable that they strike out at another for what they consider to be something they are not interested in…and for Your information the BDSM Community polices its own constantly for children trying to get into homes or the lifestyle……the word is sent around when a child is suspected of trying to enter this alternative lifestyle either to learn or join……and all attempts are made to assure no children can be subjected to this….

    Now to poke fun at someones appearence …. *shakes head*….this is one of the most childish things i have seen…..inexcusable and more than ignorant…..much much more….anyone seeing those type of comments must surely know they are dealing with an uneducated hothead with a miserable life…..

    As previously posted in this thread…..we in our BDSM Community get to know each other very well and it is more than a game of TSO SIMS to us …. we cry with one another when we lose a loved one.. our personal lives are shared and the covers come off as our friendships build….

    Yes we will back each other up….we are now and will remain a consenting group of adults intent on RP the way we want it…..we do not push it down Your throat …nor do we do childish things such as running around trying to TAG those in the lifestyle……so pick up Your spray can and instead of TAGGING….why not create a beautiful mural somewhere….and leave those of us who do not seek You out to the ADULT ROLEPLAY …and You go on in Your own little closed world….safe and secure in the knowledge that there will be no chance to further Your ignorance….
16. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    Once again, let me say that I do not oppose someone’s “lifestyle” in the privacy of their home but I do oppose violence and subordination in the phony name of lifestyle and it is my right to express that and to push back against the cultishness and thuggery that has overrun AV. I’ve counted four Sims in Alphaville already — I keep finding new cases — who were never into the BDSM lifestyle before, even played the Sims for months, who were friends of mine or other Sims, and now, they are suddenly into the lifestyle, sporting its regalia and insignia, and spouting nonsense when you ask them what’s up. I have several instances when I or another Sim has merely expressed alarm — “OMG, are you into that now? How come? What happened?” and have been tagged by some obnoxious dom or lord or whatever. Look at what the lovely Eunomia (since deleted) wrote in her tag balloon to one critic: “You don’t respect Lady Julianna? WE WILL BEAT RESPECT OUT OF YOU.” I wasn’t aware that the BDSM violence also extends to others *outside their community* to those who have *merely questioned their violent tactics*. I have another testimony of a Sim who was dedicated to non-violence who merely asked an aggressive BDSM to leave because she kept play-acting on a non-BDSM lot, only to have her stalk, torment, and do “worship” actions as if this non-violent sim really dreamed of being her “dom” in a malicious, vindictive way which actually outs the essence of the BDSM cult in ways that all the lovely lords and ladies cannot cover up.

    The leaders of BDSM blow off these concerns. They say they are not typical, that they are not the standard orthodox BDSM line, that they are only rogue members, or Goreans, or kids, or whatever…it’s SO much like the SSG, claiming that it is only rogue agents who make attacks, not the central line.

    I have various testimony that the Rose Thorn and other communities did not spring up “organically” by people who were already in this lifestyle and just “happened” to find each other in the Sims. It is a planned, organized, conscious assault. It was deliberately done to arrive with a big splash as a large group, precisely, as one person put it, because they knew they were “wierd” and could expect some static from the community. They were chased out of CC and some other cities that did not like them when they appeared as singleton lots, so they decided to make an onslaught on AV precisely because AV is the busiest, has all sorts of liberal and tolerant intellectuals in Sim Arts, and was already softened up for the punch by the SSG. Study THAT Prof. Ludlow…

    Far from “not recruiting” as you claim, they heavily recruit by blatantly advertising on their profiles, by indoctrination sessions, by subtle and not-so-subtle moves against other Sims. If what you say is true — that they just do their own thing on their own lot — then we would never find them roaming all over AV, taking part in contests on “vanilla” lots and recruiting others in IMs, trolling for possible subs everywhere, etc.

    Once again, in the quintessential hallmark of a cult, each sub prints on their profile that if you have any problems with them — including shock that they are in this lifestyle possibly against their will or have been misled or preyed upon in some way — you don’t get to ask them about it, but have to take your concerns where? To their lord or lady or dom who subordinated them to their will in the first place. Sounds like a cult to me.

    It’s standard issue cult reality for people in Scientology, or some Christian fundamentalist cults, or military Islamic cults, to say everything is just fine, they just love being in their cult, they just love using force on other people, etc. That doesn’t mean people in a free society have to stand for it.

    Sorry, but I don’t intend to be pushed out of AV by intolerant thugs who want to create a closed society, beat one another violently (whether virtually or IRL) and subordinate the weaker-willed among them into slavery, under the guise of special trusting intimate relations that are just, oh, so wonderful. No sale.

    Dyerbrook
17. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    BTW, Brigit, what’s up with the capitalization of “You” in your post? Are you addressing Bam or me or others as if we are in your lifestyle? Please, I won’t speak for Bam, but I’m not a master of anything. I also wanted to point out that pushing back and challenging your violent lifestyle is not the same thing as asking that you be banned from TSO or pushed to another city. I’m saying that you should *go* to another city voluntarily, and that Maxis/EA should have a policy of creating a separate server or city for this kind of hard-core adult RP if they want to tolerate it in their game. I don’t think AV should be that community because there are significantly different, competing non-violent, non-BDSM neighborhoods within AV, and they should consider making a dead city like Dan’s Grove be the hard-core adult server. I also want to point out that your claim that you do not “push it down my throat” is utterly ridiculous. I never voluntarily went to your lots and never even cared a whit what all of you do on the privacy of your lots, just as I don’t care what GLBT or the Temple of Cheezus does on their lots, until the following began to happen:

    1. People from the BDSM commnity began aggressively tagging, harassing, fighting people who expressed surprise, concern, or even just made a mild request to leave the “vanilla” lots where they were doing their BDSM RP.
    2. People who were not in the BDSM lifestyle before, who were known in TSO for months, began to switch over to this lifestyle, raising the concern about recruitment into cults.
    3. Some of the people in BDSM opened up websites or stated openly in the game, including on vanilla non-BDSM lots, that they hooked up to RL violent scenes raising concern for some people about children in the game.
    4. BDSM took over 20-30 lots in romance in the top 100, meaning one third of the lots (some are BDSM but not explicitly so), BDSM subs in search of doms also spread out to other romance lots. BDSM also spread into skill and money-making lots.
    5. Romance lots that have put in their advertisements on their profiles things like “No BDSM” or “Tired of all the BDSM scenes? Come back to the old-fashioned kind of love” etc. have found themselves bullied and harassed, and some have closed.
    6. When critics appear, such as myself, BDSM members call for that critic to be silenced by clamoring that there must be PC “tolerance”; Maxis/EA enables this sordid state of affairs by banning the mention of specific Sims or specific neighborhoods in discussions on the Stratics boards.
18. 

    Shawn Man X
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    There will always be fanatics in any following it is the natural progression of any ideology.
19. 

    brigit
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    no one comes into the community without having a need…..either to Dom/me or be a submissive… and in some cases just to be with open minded people….unlike some posting here….

    When talking to Y/you here…i am not addressing the person known as dyerbrook in any way as posting it that way is a sign of respect and that has not been earned….

    say what you like….there is no one bullying anyone into this lifestyle…and when friends of yours have changed….and embraced this it is you that goes off and blows a gasket….not them or had you not noticed that…..

    either way….it is senseless to argue or bicker with a closed mind…so i shall not….this is for any others who might perchance to read this thread….

    we all choose that which we do in real life just as choosing what we do in TSO ….so to each their own….and i hope all who posted here including those i do not agree with have a safe holiday…..and think before speaking about people they never even tried to know…..Sir Matthews girl……….brigit…..
20. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    I have to say, Dyerbrook, that I haven’t seen any evidence whatsoever of agressive recruiting techniques by the BDSM community, unless you count putting statements in bios as agressive recruiting. I agree that a significant portion of the Romance category lots (25/top 100 sounds right) feature BDSM in some way, but that in itself is not particularly illuminating. If you actually know people with stories you should have them contact me via email — via anonymous remailer if they wish. Isn’t your real gripe here simply that they have become a major presence in alpha — indeed one of the most succsssful groups of any kind in alpha — and it is no longer possible to avoid BDSM-ers in skill lots, money lots etc?

    Another way to put the question for them (if I may be so bold). They are here and they are a successful presence in alphaville. Why should *they* go to Dans Grove? If they trouble you, why don’t *you* go there?

    I’m not taking sides here, I’m just trying to sharpen the points at issue in the debate.
21. 

    Darksoul
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    Hmmmm, I don’t remember being actively recruited into any community in AV, oh yeah, except for a request to move My property to an SSG ‘hood. Nor did I come to AV looking to be an active member of the D/s community. After a couple of weeks here I wandered into a D/s house, was warmly welcomed and started making friends in the community. Never once have I been subjected to any pressure or witnessed anyone else bringing pressure or being pressured to do anything. Nor have I witnessed anything even bordering on violence in O/our little “cult” as you like to call it Dyerbrook. I’m a member of the community because by mutual consent of adults, W/we have created a virtual lifestyle that harks back to the gentility and politeness of an earlier age. It’s quite obvious from your ad hominem verbal attack on a family that you have no true knowledge of that you have no concept of gentility nor honor, so My comments are more than likely pearls thrown before swine. Regardless of O/our internal factions and resident jerks (yeah, I’m one of those sometimes) W/we are a family that cares deeply for each O/other and yes, W/we will stand up for each O/other when the chips are down. Would you do any less for those you love and respect dyerbrook, or are those concepts alien to you as well? From the time you spend attacking other grooups and ideas, you must lead a very sad, closed, little life. I suggest strongly that you take a look at your own internal hatred and violent tendencies before accusing others who only want to have fun in game and be left alone to do so. Look into yourself, find your own inner darkness…..your dark soul……learn it…..face it…..conquer it…..and then perhaps from the depths of your own darkness you’ll see your own light. On a hot summer’s night, would YOU offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses? Darksoul…..Master of My beloved naadirah and rl hubby to the incomparable Ummah
22. 

    Tabula Rasa
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    This person whom interviewed with their identity protected does not represent A/all in the community. she did have some good points and I do feel Lady Julianna is a wonderful person she has helped Me on several occassions, She takes the time to inform O/others about problems or under age people, ect ect, She shows She cares for U/us ALL! So if a little one hears She said so and so is a problems and they take that word to be true doesn’t mean W/we are a cult and She is O/our leader. She proves to be true to Her word. The BDSM community has just as much right to form as the mafias, the governments, the art district, the GLBT, 420′s ect ect. People fear what they don’t know this is RP to some and some are RL in addition too. I think this community cares more about who comes on O/our properties then most, I do not see any of the other house in the love catagory take the effort to make sure no one under age comes on lot, further more W/we do not go around bothering others W/we end up being bothered and harassed. I can not tell you how many times I have tried to shop and recieved a PM from a “vanilla” guy saying “hey lets BLEEP” “I like my women strong, let me tie you up and BLEEP you” “can we go to your house so I can BLEEP you” I had one guy PM My sub telling her to let him in O/our home he’d give her 450k to cyber with him…lmao then after I hunted him down at another house and embarrassed by telling his friends at the house what he did he ran off like a little baby, but after giving him a stern talking to he went and apologized after I told him to. We are a community that hold the idea and actions of respect to A/all far greater than Alpha at large. I do find it rather curious that this sub thinks Gor a cult and silly language, and yet she respects certain members? How can you little one if you just disrespected Their lifestyle? can you imagine what would’ve happened if that first caveman wrote the other one shhhh lets stick to the pictures on the walls? Although I am not a Gorean Freewoman I do enjoy the language it is beautiful, and shows a wonderful sense of devoution. I am learning it. Further more I do know that there are some in the community who are RL and have issue with those who are not but I find that a handful, there are many of RL D/s W/who try to teach and help those W/who want it, to learn more about it. I have had an interest for quite sometime now but even living in a great mecca like Los Angeles I know none in the lifestyle. This has given Me alot of insight into Myself, as well as an outlet. I am a quiet member of this community but will stand up when needed. I moved to Thorn and Petals not because I found Myself superior to Rose Thorn Garden, or want to brag, I moved to be with a friend Darksoul and was asked to by Jax,& after I signed on to find Myself wedged between Brad’s Pad and Cool Cindy. I still go to Black Rose Castle and other homes in RTG. And yes there is little up heavals in the community but come hell or high tide I know W/we will stick together in times of need, including now.
23. 

    Billy Bob Thornton
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    Greetings E/everyone,
    yes…I am part of the AV BDSM community…weither it be Rose Thorn or any other…W/we are a Family…hats off to Darksoul, Tabula, Lady De Mary and of course brigit..I am Gorean lil lady..and you were correct…you know nothing of Gor…yet you have tha audasity to speak of it…silence your tounge…some points were very good…and some..piss poor…there is No community thats perfect…if there was..W/we would A/all be there…We …as Darksoul said..do not ~recruit~..but I…as I know O/others are approached Every day..and asked questions of O/our lifestyle…and yes…Many join after finding that they were not sure where they fit in into life…only to find that this lifestysle…D/s, M/s or even Gorean was their true place in life…I cannot count how many times I was ~Coughs~…Harassed..by the Mafia…in My Home…do I go looking to harass tha ~Normal Folk~..No..nor do Most…but yet W/we are labeled..because W/we grow….get a life..and Tabula is correct….W/we boot kids out daily…with reason…W/we are an adult community….oh and BTW….dyerbrook…I as well as you..am a founder…and I Betaed AV…so why dont ~YOU~ goto DG ..if it suits you so damn well …as I …along w The Community…am going nowhere but Home…to AV…as a Family…
    Be Well…and get used to it…as W/we…are staying Home!!
24. 

    Shawn Man X
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    So yah, now that thre are people from that comunity posting here, perhaps one of you could answer the question I asked earlier.
25. 

    Shawn Man X
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    So yah, now that thre are people from that comunity posting here, perhaps one of you could answer the question I asked earlier.
26. 

    Darksoul
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    Blessed Be and Happy Yule Lady DeMary, Billy, Tabula and Briggy. As dyerbrook’s accusation of cult continues to rattle around in My head, I keep thinking how many minority groups are accused of being cults by the “mainstream” which usually has no idea who or what the group really is nor does the mainstream care, except they now have a “label” with which to further malign an unpopular group. In 1979, Isaaac Bonewits published a tool for evaluating the danger of organized or unorganized groups, as the case may be, called The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame. Since I’m not sure how well the formatting would work in copyng and pasting into this little rectangle I’ll just post the link http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

    As far as I know, W/we’re not a cult, as W/we truly have no anointed leader or even a hierarchy. That is unless S/someone wants to appoint Me Grand High Mofo Master Poobah of the AV BDSM Cult …..yeah…….that’s it…….I got sumpin you can worship…………MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

    For an answer to your question Shawn, I really have no idea since I rarely watch anything on TV besides the History Channel. If you could elaborate what was on CSI, then perhaps one of U/us could give you an answer. I’m willing to bet tho, that a TV show in no way reflects anything even remotely true about any group, RL or virtual.

    Be Well A/all
27. 

    toy
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    tsk… tsk.. tsk…… toy finds it very interesting that people with so little knowledge of Gor have such obnoxious opinions of us but that is neither here nor there…. perhaps the quote from this girls bio would say it best
    “You may judge and scorn the goreans if you wish. Know as well, however, that they judge and scorn you.
    They fulfill themselves as you do not. Hate them for their pride and power.
    They will pity you for your shame and weakness.”
28. 

    Linderella
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    I do not watch CSI either and find this entire pointing finger approach of Dyerbrook annoying and bigoted. I do not know where you are from, Dyerbrook, but I was born and raised in the good old USA where we have a thing called the Freedom of Speech as well as another called the Freedom of Religion and strict laws about harassing and discriminating against people who are different than you. BDSM is a lifestyle that is chosen and not forced, very much like the GLBT lifestyle or the Reborn Christian lifestyle. In my world, I do not discriminate against anyone. The fact remains that the BDSM community is now and will continue to remain a huge force in Alphaville. On this day, 3 of the #1 properties in the 10 Categories represented are BDSM properties. Does that mean we are out recruiting more members? Hell no, it means we are a loyal FAMILY who support and enjoy each others’ company. If we choose to show respect to each other in the outside world, that is our perogative. As stated earlier by my friend Urizenus, YOU can always move to Dan’s Grove. Alphaville and the BDSM community have been my home since March. I am not going anywhere.
29. 

    sugar/nikristai
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    My my my…
    Well some of the points in the article were ok… however I will stand tall with my family in saying… W/we as a whole love each other, are NOT recruiting people… and try O/our very hardest to keep children out of it. I too am a founder… anddddd *smiles big* beta tested in AV before many of you (I got an email invite *winks*) so I am not going anywhere… but I however do not recall A/any of U/us asking A/anyone to move?? I am now involved in BDSM in RL now as well as in TSO and just like the RL world you have to be a productive part of society. I have been harrassed at skills houses for being a submissive and didnt even say a word while I was there skilling…. so now I stay close to home with my family… I love this community ALLLL of it… D/s, M/s, and Gorean alike… I don’t participate is some of the things others do… but a number one saying in O/our community is… to each thier own… I have had my squabbles with some because of differences in opinion… but I know, that if I needed A/anyone of them and my Master was not there… T/they would come. The BDSM community is AV is strong because adults who once played TSO had noowhere to go and actually play like adults… but now… they do. W/we found somewhere where we belong… wheather it be W/we are just roleplayers or Real lifers… and I for one am not going anywhere.
30. 

    ShawnManX
    

    Dec 23rd, 2003
    

    Actually it sounds alot like what the members of the BSDM community have set up for them selves. I was just asking for varifycation(sp).
31. 

    Billy Bob Thornton
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I believe the only thing W/e have set up…is a large ~Adult Only~ family….even though a large difference of opinion…as W/we see here…The Family of D/s, M/s and Goreans are sticking together…no matter what community W/we are part of…as W/we are still a family…and just a message for the vanilla..~W/we are definatly not going anywhere…so just sit back and enjoy the ride~ * Smiles*
    Merry Christmas A/all
32. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I guess they’ve summed it up again very well in their own words: “it is senseless to argue or bicker with a closed mind.” Nevertheless, I’ll try. None of you have argued with the substance of my charges, but just mouthed your propaganda. Urizenus wants to “sharpen” a debate already as sharp as “Razorblade Kiss”— one of the lovely titles for the BDSM scene in AV–in fact a perfect exemplar of the violence in this lifestyle, a fact that all this lord-and-lady-and-pony gentility cannot disguise. We’ve also gotten another BDSMer on record here as saying that definitely the virtual BDSM lots led her to RL BDSM which she wasn’t in before, and thereby neatly proved my point — TSO is a trolling ground for BDSMers to lure people into the reality of their very-real and violent lifestyle. Someone thinks I’m “blowing a gasket” because I express dismay at a woman bowing down and being beaten, or someone thinks I have to look at my own dark soul — but it used to be called civility and humanity, to protest against violence done to other human beings.

    I’m not surprised that the BDSM crowd posts as they do, but I would expect a university professor –even one play-acting a journalist steeped in the BDSM and SSG lifestyle virtually in the game in order to be “close” to his “subjects” — to advocate a level playing field. By wishing to “sharpen” the debate, he hopes to get more persuasive arguments since he is skeptical. Let me suggest this is in part because of his own conscious or unconscious tropism — he entered the game as a leader of a Satanic cult smack in the middle of Rose-and-Thorn-ville. Imagine that. There is my poignant plea for a basic recognition of the rights our country has gained in 200 years of struggle — freedom from slavery, equality of men and women, and freedom from violence. My God, imagine rolling it all back! No, it’s not good enough for a Ph.D. in linguistics –which means a Ph.D. in mangling, killing, and dismembering meaning and the English language into an unrecognizable form. Urizenus believes that signboards touting the BDSM life are not recruiting. I submit that they are. I’ve also seen the subtle and not-so-subtle ways in which people are brought into this lifestyle and I do maintain it has the hallmarks of a cult. Maybe those four people I know who have gone over to this cult feel they have done so voluntarily, but I mourn the loss of their dignity and equality.

    Re: “Isn’t your real gripe here simply that they have become a major presence in alpha — indeed one of the most succsssful groups of any kind in alpha — and it is no longer possible to avoid BDSM-ers in skill lots, money lots etc?

    My, what a chill I feel as a hard-core, violent, subjugating movement is characterized in the sociologist’s clinical term of “successful”— devoid of content, devoid of morality — it is everywhere, so it must be OK, just like kudzu. Many people in AV *do* want to avoid BDSM on the general lots and trust me, they are not at all as nuanced as I am in making known their discomfort. They think these freaks should be banned from the game. I predict that in fact Maxis will probably be moving against them in the near future, and it will not be because of my mild, philosophical challenge but because of numerous upset parents who believed they bought their teens a “mature” game with some mild sex and “mischief” but find that they’ve bought a ticket to Caligula and the Marquis de Sade’s dungeon. We’ll be hearing from them, and we’ll be hearing more from the mainstream media.

    A lesbian with whom I discussed my concerns, after expressing dismay that so many women could submit themselves in this fashion, said “but no one would buy the game if you couldn’t RP the way you want.” OK, fair enough. But would we see so many parents and soccer moms and Bible Group dads buying this game if it showed Lady Julianna with her whip and a scanty outfit, in front of a prison cell with a human posed as a bound pony? Hardly.

    Now to come to Linderella’s very typical post, which is also a perfect exemplar of why you do not want people in a closed society to run the rules for you for the whole society because they are narrow-minded and punitive in their thinking. To wit: “I find this entire pointing finger approach of Dyerbrook annoying and bigoted. I do not know where you are from, Dyerbrook, but I was born and raised in the good old USA where we have a thing called the Freedom of Speech as well as another called the Freedom of Religion and strict laws about harassing and discriminating against people who are different than you.”

    You may find it bigoted, but it is not, in any kind of actual definition of the world. A bigot would deny you any place in the game, would ban you, would deny your equality. But I am suggesting that the game company should install a hard-core adult server, and that people go there because their lifestyle is violent, subordinating, and upsetting and even repugnant to many who uphold the equality and dignity of human beings.

    Your notion that anything in my speech or behaviour could possibly fall under any actual notion of discrimination is absurd. Even where these “strict laws” you love (except you wouldn’t want them applied to you) exist, let’s say on a campus besotted with PC rhetoric, the challenging of a lifestyle with concerns about its violence would *hardly* fall under such a “strict law”! Example: several Sims have tried to get me banned out of the game merely because I asked them the mildest of questions or simply said I didn’t want BDSM practiced on my lot. *And they failed* because even the PC-suffused Maxis won’t fall for that.

    And let me say that my persistence in raising this very troublesome topic on the Maxis/Stratics boards is paying off. Before, I had half a dozen posts removed from the old Maxis board and even the new, somewhat looser Stratics board. But I took out all references to past bannings (they are fetishistic about this), took out specific mentions of Sims and neighborhoods, etc. and now the posts stand — one on the SSG and one on BDSM which lay out my concerns. I feel the furor about the censorship of AV Herald and my own persistence in trying to post in this constricted venue has paid off, and I feel I can claim a victory — my main purpose was to open up a discussion about this closed, violent movement of BDSM, and the related challenge of SSG, and to *push back*, to challenge its sinister appearance in AV, and to speak for people who are intimidated by the PC police.

    I have absolutely no intention of moving to Dan’s Grove. I am a founder, from the first weeks of the beta, by contrast with most of these BDSM leaders and followers, current posters notwithstanding. I have my object limit built up, my regular visitors, my balloons, my bookmarks like other long-time AV residents and I have absolutely no intention of leaving them and destroying my work under pressure from a tyrannical minority rapidly spreading to constitute a challenge. And don’t say there are only 20 BDSM lots, Urizenus, when you are no longer in the game (as far as we know). The count is at least 30 that are explicitly in the BDSM category or BDSM friendly in the romance list, and add all the other categories of resident, skill, games, money, etc. It takes something like 60 houses to make a neighborhood show up large on the map, does it not?

    Urizenus’ bold challenge to me to go to Dan’s Grove ought to expose him completely as a poseur — but leaves open the question of why he could applaud and defend the SSG and BDSM but draw the line at the “child prostitute” Evangeline. She/he was 16 at first time she was encountered in the game, the age past statutory rape in some states. Is a malicious 17 year old fooling unsuspecting Sims into cybering with her/him entirely innocent under the laws of every state or country accessible by TSO? And why the tears for poor Evangeline and none for flogged 20-year-olds humiliating themselves with the lifestyle signified by this A/all BDSM spelling? If “without God, anything is possible” as Dostoyevsky put it in “the Brothers Karamazov,” why stop at child prostitution, Urizenus? Violent sex and subordination is not tolerated by the city vice squads of many communities reached by TSO in RL — the BDSMers attempt to use the Internet to spread their lifestyle is a gambit trying to escape that reality.

    I’m grateful for this resource posted by the cheerfully monikered Darksoul
    http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

    I can’t think of a better expose of the BDSM cult — “grimness” or lack of any sense of humor about themselves, censorship, isolation — keeping members from individually contacting others outside the groups (the subs’ proclamation that you have to take all problems to their dom(mes) etc. “Recruiting” — emphasis put on attracting new members (the lords want these neighborhoods to be as large as possible because as we’ve ascertained they want ‘safety’ in numbers), dogma, external control, internal control. It’s all there, in spades. I can only conclude that darksoul is either not sophisticated, or is entirely unself-aware about how well this chart applies to his own chosen cult. Cultism is not only about bowing down to one charismatic leader. Clearly, Bonewits or his adherents wanted this chart to be used against theocrats, born-agains, conservative religious groups, and wanted to use it to defend themselves (pagans at neopagan.net) from the charge of being cults. But it is decidedly a two-edged sword.

    Finally, this posting exercise has been useful to see how the BDSM clan circled the wagons. Privately, some express alarm about the violence and slavery of the Goreans–it is that end of their spectrum that has prompted my challenge. And yet rather than differentiating themselves from these very troubling Goreans, they remain silent, and condone them so that never a discouraging word can be heard about any form of BDSM lest it tar the whole community.

    Urizenus, it’s not that I “think” that BDSM and SSG are connected, it’s that I have several BDSM levels admitting on the record that top SSG officials are also into BDSM. Several top SSG leaders believe SSG does not promote BDSM, because they are in the dark about it or want all negative things said about them suppressed, and also there are arguments between BDSM and SSG at high levels. These are realities, and your belief that I am merely making this up is unseemly. I guess I will have to send you screenshots. Both of these negative movements have features of cults and totalitarianism, and therefore both are fair game in a discussion of the future of a virtual society and how to preserve its openness from its enemies.

    Will Wright said that the communities made in the game even outside the lots were among the most important things to him. I don’t think he or the other game designers ever fathomed that their game would end not with a bang, but the whimper of a sub being flogged by their dom.
33. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    um, just a comment on this Dyerbrook:

    >Ph.D. in linguistics –which means a Ph.D. in mangling, killing, and dismembering meaning and the English language into an unrecognizable form.
34. 

    toy
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    when it takes someone 16 paragraphs to say one thing toy would immediately think….. paranoid?? insecure??? or simply craving attention?

    a narow mind can never be talked to, so toy says spout on, no one in the BDSM/Gor community will be intimidated by mindless ramblings

    BTW…. FYI. this girl is a lesbian and a kajira… one can always find someone who would agree with anything You think or say… but toy will wish You a very Merry Christmas.. and would like to nominate You for the “Artificial Stupidity” award Master Dyerbrook
35. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Er, re: my point that linguistics means mangling, killing, and dismembering meaning and the English language into an unrecognizable form.

    Um…are you *trying* to be a parody of yourself??? Do you *have* a sense of humor? “Linguistics is not really about English much less the dismembering of the meaning of English expressions, but is an empirical science that investigates the nature of human linguistic competence and performance generally, and seeks to understand the mechanisms (biological or social) that explain the existence and nature of said competence and performance.”

    I rest my case on that one, spindled, folded, mutilated — all in the quest of finding “said competence and performance”. Mon Dieux! DOn’t you *see* it? Linguistics is really a curious kind of religion, that believes there are pre-set mechanisms in language, innate mechanisms, anything to place humankind paramount as a collective abstraction (not God) and anything to deny parents, the church, schools, whatever from a valid role in shaping language and meaning. No, not in your world. The horror!

    Now I interrupt this comment to return to your regularly scheduled editorializing in the guise of moderating a discussion.

    Re: Toy. Surfing around the Internet and reading the internal BDSM chat lists, I see that toy is a mere lass of 19. It’s sad to think…and yes, “toy” it does take numerous paragraphs to answer *all at once* the dozen of spam-like cheers from the BDSM cheerleading squad. And it’s interesting to note that the BDSM community itself, in fora like tsozone are regretting that this “anonymous” gave this interview and are divided on what she’s said…and are circling the wagons to make sure her unintended truth-telling doesn’t go any further.
36. 

    brigit
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    we do not regret any of us in the BDSM Community anyone giving the interview….. yet another assumption on your part ….in how we live, act and think……..we as a group if you would care to read back…..agree on some things and not others as she had stated…

    we love a good discussion…..and we could care less if you ever agree with us….you do not threaten us……worry us…..or even concern our daily thoughts…….

    we post if we have something to say….do not confuse that with the desire to in any way change your (the term is used loosely now) mind…..

    toy being 19 has nothing to do with the fact she is an educated woman with a very good head on her shoulders….knows what she wants….and is of legal age………..

    oh i forgot….silly me….you do not believe in those of legal age having the right to do as they choose between other consenting adults….my bad..

    the name is brigit…the Master is Sir Matthew and i love what i am getting for Christmas…

    rah rah rah…..sis boom bah….i love being a sub so ha ha ha……*bends over mooning dyerbrook*
37. 

    ShawnManX
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    The road wound around the hills,
    I will wound you with my sword.

    The mechanic is context.
38. 

    toy
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    toy has been rereading Master Dyerbrook’s ramblings and has come to the conclusion that it is He that is trying to do the recruiting…. not members of the BDSM/Gor community…. He is trying to gain support to His perverted way of thinking. If this girl obeyed His teaching toy would also be a slave. a slave to some perverted subculture based on the now almost extinct John Birch Society beliefs… toy has come to the conclusion also that conclusion that Master Dyerbrook is to be pitied for his belief that He is the ‘chosen one’ that He is the only one who knows the truth, that He, in His warped thinking, considers that this girl being 19 is wrong… it is rather pathetic to be so narrow minded and selfcentered to think that You are the saviour Master Dyerbrook
39. 

    Linderella
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    “and are circling the wagons to make sure her unintended truth-telling doesn’t go any further.”
    Frankly, this “anonymous” that was interviewed spoke only from their point-of-view. If Uri wanted a more honest view of our community, he should have interviewed someone who was willing to admit who they were. We are not a cult nor do we recruit.

    “Both of these negative movements have features of cults and totalitarianism, and therefore both are fair game in a discussion of the future of a virtual society and how to preserve its openness from its enemies.”
    It is only YOUR opinion that BDSM is a cult and a negative movement. Until you can acknowledge that this is an OPINION and not a fact, you are a bigot as I originally stated for you are forming a conclusion from opinion and not fact at all. When the uneducated and underinformed stand on a soap box and try to force their beliefs down the throats of others, that is cultism. Your anti-BDSM movement smacks of a cult. With or without TSO, BDSM is a lifestyle that is practiced throughout the world. TSO is a game intended and sold for adults. If parents chose to allow their children to play it, then the parents are at fault for not protecting their children from any type of unsavory situations.

    “See my own site for interviews with minors and other players in the game that indicate that minors frequently lie about their age and “pass” and that while they may have the good sense to stay away from a violent cult, they certainly are exposed to it merely by going to an ordinary vanilla contest on an ordinary skill lot because of the profiles, play-acting, and activities of those in the BDSM community.”
    You see, as an educator in this country, I have a real problem with parents that feel the world is responsible for screening, protecting and raising their children. I screen everyone that comes to my lot and if they lie about their age, that is not my problem. That is their parents problem. Their parents need to monitor their internet time and raise them to be honest. That is not my job, nor is it Maxis. I am all for protecting the children. But the first line of defense has to be their parents, period. I have many many friends in the BDSM community who are parents. They take time to screen every online game before they allow their children to play it. If other parents in the world do not, then that is their failure as parents.

    We are a family and I never wander out of our community except to skill. Neither do most of the other BDSM players I know. So I have no idea who is doing all this recruiting. If they choose to come to my home and ask questions, I will answer them. But I sure as heck am not saying “Join us or be chained!” That is not what we are about. And if you actually tried to educate yourself instead of trying to impress us with your big words, you would know this, Dyerbrook.
40. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Keep talking, you’re all revealing yourselves to be even more entrenched in a cult than even I imagined. I have studied this cult more than you realize, Linderella, and I actually shudder to think you are an educator of children with the kind of cultish beliefs that you have. You don’t have to shout “join or be chained” to convince me you’re favoring methods of coercion. I merely have to look at one of the red balloons on a Sim who parodied BDSM, which says “RESPECT LADY JULIANNA OR WE WILL BEAT IT OUT OF YOU!!!!*. You always treat such obvious examples of your ethic as somehow a minority among you, or not significant, but they reveal more than you realize.

    I have to chuckle at poor Toy-the idea that one Sim such as myself, running a motel with just one slot machine near the lower half of the top 100 list, could somehow be a leader of a cult. She is made helpless by my arguments and can only flail and label and push them back at me. I attribute this to her youth and inexperience, and I imagine Toy will not be staying forever in this lifestyle because I suspect that as for many, it is used to resolve the conflicts and issues of abuse in childhood, and in time, she will grow out of it or it will go so badly for her she’ll flee from it. That often happens with cults.

    Linderella’s notion that BDSM never wander out of their community except to skill is blatantly false, as anyone who has visited all kinds of lots and seen them and their disturbing RP at work. Even having them on vanilla skilling lots is disturbing to lot owners — they tell me that it makes them physically ill but they fear speaking out.

    TSO is decidely NOT a game intended and sold for adults, as posters have repeatedly pointed out here, since it merely requires that you be 13 or older. Thirteen is not an adult, duh. And you all constantly reduce this discussion down to what happens to minors or doesn’t happen to minors and their parents’ responsibilities, but frankly, parents of even 22 year old people should be worried about the effects of this BDSM movement in TSO on their children just as much as if they had joined the Moonies.

    When I began this discussion, I actually hoped that I would get the responses I got from one dom on a lot whom I visite, who was happy to talk to me openly, and who said, “I bought the game just like you, and I want to do my thing on the privacy of my lot.” He might have added, “and build a neighborhood with others who are likeminded.” He mentioned that he was concerned about Goreans and others who did represent violence and coercion in ways that he felt his brand of BDSM did not. If everyone had responded in this way, I might have folded my tent. But they didn’t, and by speaking openly they’ve implicated themselves even more than I would have dreamed, and I am now even more alarmed about this cult than I was when I began.

    This cult is not about sex, but is about power and perversion, perversion not of sex, but of the truth and of meaning. It is a new democratized Internet-style cult, but all the more dangerous for being one. Yes, it is a judgement, and yes, it is my informed opinion. The notion that judgements and opinions based on standards that have developed as universal or community standards over the decades have no role in intellectual discourse any more is one of the ominous signs of the closing of the American mind.
41. 

    Linderella
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    “Linderella’s notion that BDSM never wander out of their community except to skill is blatantly false, as anyone who has visited all kinds of lots and seen them and their disturbing RP at work. Even having them on vanilla skilling lots is disturbing to lot owners — they tell me that it makes them physically ill but they fear speaking out.”
    I really do have better things to do on Christmas Day then yap with you but I will make one point. We, as a group, were made to feel unwelcome in a group of skill houses some time ago. Since we were unwelcome, we chose, as a community, not to visit those skill houses. If you know of any other houses that do not want us present, then tell the owners to kindly make their wishes known to one of the house owners or leaders of our Community and we will spread the word not to visit them.
    As Franklin Delano Roosevelt said, “Let me assert my firm belief, that the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.”
42. 

    brigit
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    reg….RESPECT LADY JULIANNA OR WE WILL BEAT IT OUT OF YOU….well in all sections of society we have those that are hotheads and do not speak for all….*suggests looking in the mirror*….and as in this case i have seen you now pull this balloon comment up several times….perhaps you need to do this to make your point seem valid…

    now what say you of all the “vanilla” profiles that spout violence and such….

    let me ask you…..is it jealousy because you find yourself at the bottom of the list….and we in the BDSM community pay no attention to the lists it is not our purpose to rise on anyones list….it is our purpose to visit and RP…where we have the most fun and can visit…with like minded people….OOPS….and we are in many top spots on the list….hmmmm….kinda tells you something doesn’t it….

    Now knowing nothing about my sister Toy you attack her upbringing and ASSUME…..*there’s that word again..*…..that she was abused…i guess it takes a brilliant mind to be able to look inside of anothers life and not even know them……wow…..

    ok back to my cheers……rah rah rah….sis boom bah….pek ja rask….you silly man….blah blah blah…….*jumps up with small skirt rising…oops no panties*….

    Sir Matthews girl……brigit
43. 

    toy
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    toy would have to inform You that this girl has worn her collar longer than any other slave in the community, so dont assume that toy is just living out some fantasy.. this girl is who she is and revels in the understanding that she will go on as she is

    Your misguided assumptions of BDSM/Gor are rather pathetic and obviously Your speaking as one who is very misinformed…..
    toy belives and lives by what she is… as far as trying to ‘recruit’ toy believes that one is Gor or is not…. so recruiting seems a bit futile…. and toy has never misbehaved on ANY lot also has many vanilla friends, but they respect this girl for what she is and believes

    toy lives by the following
    Slavery is not
    slavery is not about suffering . . . . . . slavery is about service

    slavery is not about humiliation . . . . . . slavery is about humility.

    slavery is not about pain . . . . . . slavery is about being present.

    slavery is not about being used . . . . . . slavery is about being of use.

    slavery is not about control . . . . . . slavery is about letting go.

    slavery is not about what is done to you . . . . . . slavery is about what you do for others.

    slavery is not about abuse . . . . . . slavery is about acceptance.

    slavery is not about proving anything . . . . . . slavery is about being real.

    slavery is not about contempt . . . . . . slavery is about respect.

    slavery is not about how you look . . . . . . slavery is about how much you care.

    slavery is not about denying yourself . . . . . . slavery is about being open.

    slavery is not about bondage . . . . . . slavery is about freeing your spirit.

    slavery is not about punishment . . . . . . slavery is about discipline.

    slavery is not about being unable to escape . . . . . . slavery is about being committed.

    slavery is not about submission . . . . . . slavery is about obedience.

    slavery is not about fear . . . . . . slavery is about trust.

    slavery is not about sex . . . . . . slavery is about love.

    slavery is not about pleasure . . . . . . slavery is about happiness.
44. 

    Billy Bob Thornton
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    ok Dyerbrook…all I have to say ..is I am a Gorean…I do not represent violence…I like all O/others protect Myself and Mine when attacked….as far as cohersion….huh?…pls…show Me where…Quote*Finally, this posting exercise has been useful to see how the BDSM clan circled the wagons. Privately, some express alarm about the violence and slavery of the Goreans–it is that end of their spectrum that has prompted my challenge. And yet rather than differentiating themselves from these very troubling Goreans, they remain silent, and condone them so that never a discouraging word can be heard about any form of BDSM lest it tar the whole community.
    * unquote…..first ..let Me make one thing clear ….who the hell are you to judge A/anyone?…all W/we wish to do is play this game O/our way…I have been harassed more since sept 02 when I started Beta testing by Mafia than any body else…and buddy…I get asked Everyday about O/our lifestyles…I DO NOT go out preaching..or recruiting..oh BTW…thats what you are doing at this time is trying to recruit against a Group of Adults that are playing a game O/our way…so give it a rest about recruiting…violence in profiles…umm…hello..has anyone read some of the ~so called~ normal folks?…they put U/us to shame…a cult..LMAO…there are NO leaders in this community…if there are..pls show Me..as I have been in this community a very long time..and umm….dont cults have leaders?…and if someone did tag a person w that ballon..it was NOT condoned from Julianna or A/anyone from the community,,,Hello!!…this community is based upon respect…respect is only given…when its Earned….and you sir..(yes lowercase as not to offend you ) have earned nothing but disgust…when you can prove points of violence of Goreans..then pls..present it..Not hearsay…and slaves?…damn right…its part of the roleplay..but umm…oooops..I forgot…Our slaves ~play freely~….I cannot Make someone do something *Online*…unless they are willing to do so…damn…those power buttons suck … give Me a break…all you do is accuse…but for what reason…umm….did your online wife…or GF turn sub slave?…is that it?..I dont know…but Noone forces Anyone online to do a damn thing…especially Adults…as far as this bieng part of a bad childhood..ummm…damn…I am 37,,,and NO I sure as hell was not beat…I was raised to respect O/others and their wishes…but also to stand up for whats right…your accusations are just about something that has ticked you off…if your friends have turned BDSM..try talking to them…if they are true friends…they will talk….maybe you might just ~Listen~….and understand…and NO I sure am not trying to get you into D/s…your not the type. maybe get your facts straight …before you attack…and learn to have fun….Be Well
    BBT
45. 

    toy
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    ooopsy……. toy closed her last post to soon… must be the brainwashing hehehehe

    toy would have to reply also to Your ‘assumed’ thoughts that this girl has been abused…. that assumption couldnt be further from the truth…. toy has been brought up in a farm family, both loving and supportive… toy has had a extremely happy childhood and doesnt look for the love and support of her family to ever go away…… that kinda riddles the ‘assumption’ that toy was abused

    toy was also taught to learn more, always more about anything that is of interest to her….

    as far as You visiting a Dom’s home and Him speaking openly… toy offers an invitation to You to come to Dark Virtues anytime You wish to discuss Gor…… many even in BDSM comunity, sadly, speak of Gor without an understanding of Gor……. getting onesided views on a subject is very narrow minded, wouldnt You say?

    toy stated once before that if anyone searches long enough they can find like thinking people, or someone who will give an acceptable slant to what You believe as ‘the truth’

    the invitation stands open at anytime for You to come to Dark Virtues and discuss Gor
    toy only asks that You are polite and honorable, as it is the only acceptable behaviour in our home

    one last item on brainwashing

    toy often wonders why obedience is considered akin to mindless behavior. This girl didn’t leave her brain at the door when she became someone’s property, she is every bit as intelligent as she always has been.
    Mistress uses her intelligence as much as She uses her body, or her skills, or her emotions, when it pleases Her. This girl’s conversations with Mistress involve a bit more substance than the occasional “Yes, Mistress” and “As you wish, Mistress”. Although if that is what Shecommands, toy reduces her verbal interactions to Her. toy is here to serve Her. This girl is strongwilled, pasionate, firey, and high spirited. She chose to own her, knowing the kind of person she is. She simply owns a strong woman, who finds her greatest joys at Her feet. toy relishes the fact that even with her own inner strength, She brings her to her knees before Her. She challenges her to strive to meet Her bar of excellence, She does not keep lowering the bar to settle for less than what She wants. But while She does not break her spirit, She *allows* her to be playful and if it is not appropriate, She expects her to cease that behavior. It is, after all, about her being pleasing to Mistress. But because she puts Her first in all things… that does not make her a doormat. However, if She chose to wipe Her feet on her and use her as one, she would gladly lay still and revel in the chance to serve Her that way. toy would beg Her to be allowed the chance
    to be Her doormat. If She wants her to be silent and curl quietly on the floor for Her feet to rest upon, she does so. If by being obedient and docile, others consider her a doormat, let them frown upon it all they want- it cannot change who she is deep inside. This girl is Her possession, and proud of that. toy is neither brainwashed, nor mindless. And anyone who has met her knows she is not lacking in self
    assurance or esteem. She just hopes to be able to serve Her in any way She allows her, no matter how small. And that is where she finds her own happiness, her peace, her serenity, in her service to Her. This is *not* a sign of weakness by any means. If toy was weak, she would take the easy way out, and fight her own nature in order to live a life that is simpler and provides more comforts and rights than
    slavery does. toy would succumb to society’s pressures to be an independent entity. This girl would not search deep within the internal strength to bare herself, vulnerable and exposed, to others. toy would hide behind an external shield of false power, and lock away her soul. This girl would deny her personal
    accountability. toy would not lift her head high after being corrected, and take it to heart as a lesson, instead of getting defensive. This is *not* abusive. Nor is it abusive to have Her holding all the rights in the relationship. It is not abusive to be treated as property, rather than Her peer. Since being owned does mean She has the right to do with toy as She pleased, she took a very long time making sure she trusted
    Her with her life. That’s where it helps to have common sense and intelligence, because it truly was the last choice she made that matters. toy’s owner doesn’t want blind obedience… She wants her eyes wide open as she surrenders to Her, so that she can truly understand what she is giving up, and to what depth She controls her.

    Jal falara kajira kari jan me’shan fam
    Avan’shea Maria LaVeaux
    dwari ven May 10th, 2003
46. 

    Darksoul
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Ok, dyerbrook…….I may truly be unsophisticated, being a southerner with no college education, think that of Me if you’d like, I could really care less. Nor do I care exactly what linguistics, nor your definition of it is, I’m plain spoken and say only what I mean. I have no need to couch my opinions in what some in the south would call “fifty cent words”. Of course, I assume being a southerner will give you another collection of labels to apply to Me *shrugs*.

    As far as the Bonewits chart, let’s take a close look at it and I’ll answer it from an “insider’s point of view”

    1) Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

    As I’ve stated before, We have no leaders. There are those of U/us whose opinions are valued, but that’s the extent of it.

    2)External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.

    You’ll find political views from ultra conservative, to left liberal, to greens in the community.

    3)Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

    I don’t know anyone who holds all the wisdom, or thinks they do……scripture? none….unless you consider castlerealm.com to be scripture.

    4)Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

    Herding subs is like herding cats, some will believe and trust anything Master says, some always have to know why and argue about that. Hostility….only towards those who attack U/us without having real knowledge of W/who W/we are. If you want to a true opinion of AV BDSM, spend some time in the community, look for the “violence” and “lack of human rights”, then come back here and post what you’ve found.

    5)Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.

    See above: none of U/us claim to know the whole truth, except about O/our individual psyches.

    6)Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.

    Again, W/we don’t recruit…the signs on O/our properties are simply telling children not to be there.

    7)Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.

    W/we’re not an organized group or front, simply friends and family, W/we are who W/we are and need no fronts.

    8)Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.

    Some sims are rich, some poor, many subs have more simoleans than their Doms. I got My simoleans the hard way….Ebay

    9)Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.

    W/we have three words that cover sexual relationships…..safe, sane, and consensual….I think anyone could agree with those.

    10)Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.

    Some relationships are very sexual, some are not, then all shades in between.

    11) Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    Seems to be you who wants to censor U/us

    12) Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    See #11, you’re the one who recommended W/we should be isolated

    13) Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

    P/people leave every day

    14)Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    Never witnessed any violence on any BDSM properties, except for taggers from the outside

    15)Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.

    They are all out to get Me

    16)Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

    See above……seriously, if O/our rp lifestyle was so grim, I don’t think most of U/us would bother to play.

    17)Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

    Ask any sub, T/they will tell you taht submission and surrender of personal will in game is one of the things they cherish most. If you sit down and talk to subs, they will most likely tell you that they are in positions of power rl, either in their families or in their jobs and they consider to be a relaxing therapy.

    18)Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.

    I’ve seen none of this either, but did witness a lot of it when involved in the mainstream church, not to mention the prevalent idea of “Do as I say, not as I do” in both the business and academic world.

    Now dyerbrook, can you do the same with any group(s) you may be involved in and find your own level of cult danger? Theocracies did you say? Religious fundamentalism? Hmmmm…….well? Consider it a challenge
47. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    God, it’s frightful to see all that brainwashing Newspeak about “slavery is happiness” and I have to wonder why my previous post about Orwell is now not showing up.

    I utterly reject your analysis, Darksoul. I’ve also asked Bonewits why he doesn’t write about BDSM and I’ve asked him to look at this discussion.

    far as the Bonewits chart, let’s take a close look at it and I’ll answer it from an “insider’s point of view”

    1) Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

    As I’ve stated before, We have no leaders. There are those of U/us whose opinions are valued, but that’s the extent of it.

    Um, DUH, each sub as a leader, called a dom. That’s what we’re talkinga bout. There are also masterminds in the community like Lady Julianna and Lord Cougar who have emerged to spread the community with intent.

    2)External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.

    You’ll find political views from ultra conservative, to left liberal, to greens in the community.

    We’re not talking about political views, we’re talking about your labeling of every challenge, even those most rational and thoughtful, as bigoted and close-minded. It’s a tautology for you. And challenge or judgement = bigotry. That’s what we mean by external control, duh.

    3)Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

    I don’t know anyone who holds all the wisdom, or thinks they do……scripture? none….unless you consider castlerealm.com to be scripture.

    Let me suggest that Toy’s list of ghastly definitions about slavery actually for *just such an example* of unverifiable claims and *just such an example* of some special insight or arcane knowledge that is completely inaccessible to the rest of us.

    4)Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

    Herding subs is like herding cats, some will believe and trust anything Master says, some always have to know why and argue about that. Hostility….only towards those who attack U/us without having real knowledge of W/who W/we are. If you want to a true opinion of AV BDSM, spend some time in the community, look for the “violence” and “lack of human rights”, then come back here and post what you’ve found.

    I’ve spent the time, I’ve seen the violence. It’s very troubling. The amount of hostility to internal and external critics is illustrated *in spades* and *in living color* by this very discussion, with its casting of aspersions on “Anonymous” and with its chorus of denunciations of me. I rest my case.

    5)Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.

    See above: none of U/us claim to know the whole truth, except about O/our individual psyches.

    Regarding BDSM, you are absolutely fundamentalist. You are hostile to anyone who brings for a judgement about any really violent end of your spectrum. You are hostile to the idea that *not everybody* has joined *really* voluntarily. Why else would there have to be so many lots springing up called “safe havens” for subs, and so many lots where people are complaining about what doms have done to them in the game? Why would anyone have to switch their doms so often? It is a highly troubled and drama-fulled community if you look at the aggregate of relations and stop spouting about it in the abstract.

    6)Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.

    Again, W/we don’t recruit…the signs on O/our properties are simply telling children not to be there.

    This is surely open to debate. Perhaps BDSM lots in TSO do not meet the criteria of recruiting. Yet I’m concerned that clueless, impressionable, young and inexperienced people are drawn to these titillating sites precisely because they are able to indoctrinate — yes, recruit — by playing on people’s desire for intimacy and belonging to a cohort joined together against a hostile world.

    7)Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.

    W/we’re not an organized group or front, simply friends and family, W/we are who W/we are and need no fronts.

    Not so, G.I. Only Maxis knows for sure, but both SSG and BDSM people change their lot names and hide when convenient.

    8)Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.

    Some sims are rich, some poor, many subs have more simoleans than their Doms. I got My simoleans the hard way….Ebay

    This doesn’t seem relevant, really, to TSO.

    9)Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.

    W/we have three words that cover sexual relationships…..safe, sane, and consensual….I think anyone could agree with those.

    But yet doms DO exercise sexual control over their subs, so I’m afraid this fits.

    10)Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.

    Some relationships are very sexual, some are not, then all shades in between.

    This needs more study. I don’t know why some of these doms have 3-4-5 subs under their control fulfilling their every whim, I guess they just get a charge out of it.

    11) Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    Seems to be you who wants to censor U/us

    Er, I’d challenge you to find any place where I have called for *censorship*. Don’t mistake a CHALLENGE to your closed society to be censorship or bigotry.

    12) Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    See #11, you’re the one who recommended W/we should be isolated

    I said the game company should abide by its own TOS and make a separate server for hard-core adult violent sexual play.

    13) Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

    P/people leave every day

    They do? Why? If it is so wonderful? The first admission I’ve ever seen of that! Thank you!

    14)Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    Never witnessed any violence on any BDSM properties, except for taggers from the outside

    I guess dungeon scenes with whips and so on doesn’t qualify as violence???? I guess we can’t really have a rational conversation then.

    15)Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.

    They are all out to get Me

    BDSM imagine themselves banned together to face a hostile world when many people just laugh at them or ignore them.

    16)Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

    See above……seriously, if O/our rp lifestyle was so grim, I don’t think most of U/us would bother to play.

    The treatment of the spoof Sim Lord Cougar out to give the lie to what you’re saying. Grimness is actually the hallmark of most BDSM lots. They have absolutely no sense of humor, other than to tell the gerbil anecdote over and over — it’s sad, really.

    17)Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

    Ask any sub, T/they will tell you taht submission and surrender of personal will in game is one of the things they cherish most. If you sit down and talk to subs, they will most likely tell you that they are in positions of power rl, either in their families or in their jobs and they consider to be a relaxing therapy.

    THis is the one point where you can prove without a doubt that BDSM is a cult. It puts people in relationships of submission, it educates them through a coercive culture to say that they do so voluntarily and fulfill their needs in this way, and never posits any other form of relationship to achieve these same things as possitive, dubbing them ‘vanilla’ or bland and boring.

    18)Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.

    I’ve seen none of this either, but did witness a lot of it when involved in the mainstream church, not to mention the prevalent idea of “Do as I say, not as I do” in both the business and academic world.

    The group members constantly use violent play and subordinate others and engage in a 24/7 propaganda barrage to prove that is not what they do.
48. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Re: “I have to wonder why my previous post about Orwell is now not showing up.”

    Oops, getting a little paranoid. That post is down under “Interview with SnowWhite” where I have an interesting discussion with James, also about BDSM, if you want to follow that thread.
49. 

    Darksoul
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Quotes dyerbrook…….”The treatment of the spoof Sim Lord Cougar out to give the lie to what you’re saying. Grimness is actually the hallmark of most BDSM lots. They have absolutely no sense of humor, other than to tell the gerbil anecdote over and over — it’s sad, really.”

    How interesting, about the same time as the spoof Lord Cougar, there was also a spoof Alpha Wolf, not to mention the illustrious spoof Lord Drake. IIRC, Drake claimed to be 13 years old and have a 12 year old sub. He was quickly banned from all BDSM properties. All of these were assumed to be the same sicko, both by their patois, and their uncanny ablilty to make every other letter that they typed a CaPiTaL LeTtEr. Perhaps you were them, if that’s so, you’ve undermined any credibility you may have. Oh yeah, there was a spoof Sir Dom as well. Go figure. Why would someone banned from the community for spoofing well respected members come here and cast aspersions against said community? Inquiring minds want to know dyerbrook, they really do. I was present when Drake was banned and booted from a property for using racial epithets against the Owner/Dom…..Billy was there as well. And Monique of the House DeSade was instrumental in implementing a letter writing campaign to Maxis that banned Drake’s account…….I just remembered that you mentioned DeSade earlier in the conversation.
50. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Huh? I’m not those Sims you mentioned who were banned, and I have not been banned from the game. I guess it’s hard for you to believe that anyone other than a 12-13 year old griefer could criticize you. Well, you’ll have to get disabused of that notion. AlphaWolf has also attacked one of my specifically non-violent Sims.

    Er, I mentioned DeSade earlier in the conversation because he is the name historically most associated with your deviation.

    BTW, it is not a violation of the TOS and not a bannable offense to create spoof Sims. At last count, there were at least 4 of them spoofing ME.

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