The Alphaville Herald

255 Responses to “Interview with Gorean Mistress Maria LaVeaux and her slave, Toy”

1. 

   dyerbrook
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Let’s rehearse this supposed “twisting” of my own post later like a whiney school boy, shall we? Here it is:

   Yes, indeed, reason has prevailed — only not at Alphaville Herald. I would urge you all to hike on over to the Stratics board where a thread was opened about BDSM and then locked after 2 pages by the mod. In this thread you can see a number of people saying this is a teen-rated game, and BDSM has no place in it. You can see people expressing shock and dismay at how many houses there are. You can see people just expressing their ordinary, Yankee, common-sense dislike of the notion of “slaves” and “masters”. And so on. Quite the interesting debate. And I wasn’t even in on it. So you have to admit this is not “Dyerbrook’s 15 minutes of fame” or anything of the kind — the posters at AV Herald don’t represent the middle ground on this subject, or the average Joe in the Sims — who finds it a repulsive lifestyle, but isn’t willing to fight against it, but wishes somebody would do something. Go and read it, and stop deluding yourselves into thinking this is just the crusade of one Sim tilting at windmills.

   Er, I don’t see anything about me saying I have a MAJORITY of posters or even MANY. It says A NUMBER. It just says that opinions are expressed that are similar to mine. It says “stop deluding that this is just the crusade of one Sim” — and notice that there are others. Indeed, even by your own count, there are 2. That’s a lot, for people to step up to the plate in the horribly hostile climate YOU have created on this subject, to express the profound dis-ease they feel about your so-called “lifestyle”. But now, when I see how horribly YOU have been willing to twist a post, I’m really motivated to go back to that Stratics board and see what is really there. I’ll bet that some of the people may have said things like “This isn’t for me, but…” or “I don’t like slavery, but…” and you counted them as a “yes” vote which only further proves my point. My recollection of these posters was that they were not some kind of full-throated “yes” lobby for your way of life. Your way is not the norm. It’s the aberration. It’s the minority. It is NOT the basis on which to build a society. And your belief that if someone criticizes you, they must be somehow secretly wishing to engage in your lifestyle, is just plain sick and twisted. Anybody can see that. You are so caught up in your power games and ordering people around and expecting them to meet your every whim that you have forgotten that the world is not based on that presumption.
2. 

   toy
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   toy read that astarics thread and commented on it before to you dyerbrook….. it was overwhelmingly in the pots saying live and let live, so toy would suggest you reread it and stop twisting things to suit your own misguided opinions

   now toy will try to get the postings back where they belong on here

   By the Books
   There seems to be a never-ending struggle on Gor between those who cry, “If it’s not specifically in the books,
   it’s not Gorean!”…. and those who seem to feel entitled to rewrite Norman’s works,
   proclaiming, “If it’s not specifically NOT in the books, it’s acceptable.”
   While toy doubts that someone who is afraid to make a move without first checking to make sure it is in the
   “sacred scrolls” is what Norman envisioned when he created his proud,
   independent Gorean people…. there is also such a thing as poetic license run amok.

   While adhering to the books is something we should all strive for…
   the books themselves are contradictory in places and therein lies the problem.
   The books are filled with unique and singular individuals… each different… but all of them Gorean.
   What is it that makes them Gorean?… Is it the clothes they wear?…
   No… From the naked slave to the Tatrix in her robes of gold… all are still Gorean. Is it the way they behave?
   Do they all conduct themselves with Honor?… Not really…
   The books are filled with less than honorable people….. yet they are still Gorean.

   It is the philosophies that tie them together. (Considering Norman is a philosopher, not a foreign concept, huh?)

   The belief that Men are naturally dominant and women are by nature submissive.
   The belief in a natural order that is not to be denied. There are many more, but toy thinks you can see the point.

   There are many who read the books of Norman and study all of the websites. We meet them every day.
   They somehow… absorb all of the details of the books while missing the message.
   They choose a Gorean name, and keeping in mind Rule # 1, (Tal the Free and greet the slaves),
   they come swooping into Gor on tarnback, leading a larl on a leash, demanding paga with a ka-la-na chaser.
   (You laugh, but that actually happened.) While this person may have a wealth of knowledge of things Gorean,
   they just don’t….. “get it.” That is not to say they never will… they just haven’t yet.

   But…. If you believe strongly in the philosophies that Norman set down, and hold true to them,
   they will govern your behavior. If you must think about it… consult the books before you make a move…
   then, you have somehow not yet grasped the difference between “acting Gorean” …… and Being Gorean.

   Becoming Gorean is not an overnight occurrence… but more of an evolution…
   some are just higher up on the evolutionary ladder than others.

   falara kajira toy
3. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   Correct on one thing Dyer.. I counted 2 who supported your view, 5 non-committed I counted as neutrals, and 12 who believed that people should be allowed to play this game as they wished. I went to university Dyer and I have been involved in several research projects. I know how to classify and count data, and I don’t play word games inferring data that is not there. How misleading… a number indeed. You implied that the majority of posters in that thread supported you through your unsupported claims.

   What appears to be the norm or the majority are people who are not so prejudiced and understand that this is a game, a playground. It says on the box “be somebody else.” The whole idea is to let loose and have some fun!

   Dyer, seriously, all gaming aside here… I think you need to talk to someone, get some help before you climb a tower and start shooting anyone on the street wearing leather. Your kind are more dangerous than ours. Fanatics must always be watched.
4. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   Oh, stop it. YOU are the fanatic. A number means just that — a number! And you don’t find any flaming support, any cheering section. You find tolerance and neutrality, but a discussion about moving to the adult server. Any non-biased observer of these pages would see that my post indicated just what it said — that there is support for my point of view, when you all claim I’m a loner. The five people who you count as neutrals are not supporters for you, after all. I never, never implied that there was some kind of silent or vocal majority of posters, and duh, if I thought such a thing, or implied such a thing, would I be so stupid as to ask everyone — URGE everyone! — to go read it themselves DUH? I mean, really, do you think I’m THAT stupid? That I’d make a claim that hundreds of people reading this could easily dispel by simply going to the Stratics board and reading the posts? For cying out loud, that’s just plain insane. I think what’s really going on here is that you *just cannot bear* that even two people have the perceptions I do about your behavior in this game. It’s just too much of a shattering of your untruthful world. And you are striving to undermine it and discredit it in any way you can, although your efforts are as phony as a $3 bill, which I don’t even think they have in Canada.

   If the information is so easy to check, and I point everyone to it, how distorted do you really think I can be?! Duh! If I wanted to fake some mass public opinion, I could have easily come to this blog with some fake public survey and posted it, like every other article here, and tried to win my case that way — if I were that unscrupulous. But what I did was *point everyone to the facts of the posts so they can see for themselves.* That’s the sort of thing that people who SEEK after the truth insted of claiming to HOLD the truth as you do endeavor to do in a free society – something you cannot fathom.

   Once again, I have to point out that you live in a world that is utterly perverted, not only perverted as to sex and love and morals, but as to truth and facts. Your constant willingness to misconstrue, mislead, misquote others is enough evidence of that. We see it amply in these pages and it is a textbook case of the Closing of the American Mind reaching even to Canada. I’ve never been so silly as to claim majority support for my views. But you’re silly enough to mistake silence or tolerance for some kind of blessing -and some kind of welcoming of BDSM in AV. It is not. And you’re also ridiculous enough to try to portray me as some kind of misrepresenter and liar when any fool can read and understand my post, look at the Stratics posts, and *draw their own conclusion* — a concept you abhor in your world of dominion, but which bespeaks the freedom WE all have from your domain.
5. 

   toy
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   toy is so pleased that yoy found the ‘play back’ button on your rants once again dyerbrook…. its been missing for a few days… one would wonder if you are still searching for the overwhelming support of your views…. toy will give you credit for perserverance and will clamly sit back while you fail once again… it is you who must get a clue, no one really gives a damn about your one man/woman opinion.. lets face it you just love to rant and rave and if ranting here keeps you out of a tower someplace shooting innocents then please go on ranting

   falara kajira toy
6. 

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   According to Dyers obviously delusional Mathamatics, 11.76% is an Overwhelming Majority supporting his point of View, so the whole of TSO should Bow to his wishes.

   I concure with Lady Julianna chere,,
   Get some professional help, you are Losing it.

   His kind of thinking, That as long as one other person agrees with him he is right, and the rest of the world is wrong, Is indeed Dangerous. The world is Unfortunatly all too familiar with this sort of Mentality and the Damage it can cause.

   Chere,, you were caught Lying. Plain and simple, Glaringly obvious for all to see. and your attempts to Whitewash it are of not much higher quality than the original Pervarication.
   Just how sound is your “Philisophical Opinion” if you have to resort to Lies and Distortions to support it? Wouldn’t the TRUTH support your Prejudice chere?

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
7. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   Dyer, I never set out to convert all of Alphaville to BDSM or a D/s lifestyle. You are the one on a crusade. All we are saying is leave us alone and let us have our fun. Get the knot out of your shorts and have some fun yourself. Get some help and let go of this obsession you have with us.
8. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   Does anybody else out there in the wasteland find it EXTRAORDINARY that I, arguing against the bestial ideology of violence, slavery, and domination represented by BDSM, is the one who is told to “get help”, and the ones who practice this lifestyle aren’t the ones who need help? Hello? Void? Can you speak back? As for obsession, well, you’re the ones who kept a post going the 300 mark, and spent a lot of it arguing with each other LOL.

   If you haven’t set out to convert AV — and I don’t make that claim — then why make assumptions that someone secretly fantasizes to join your creepy way of life? You use the violence of your lifestyle to attack and shame others outside it — isn’t that really a heinous offense? I surely think it is, but it’s clear evidence of how your yammering about “consent” isn’t worth the powder to blow it. It is only about power for you, hmmm? Anything to have power over other human beings. Despicable!

   Once again, the Stratics boards contains genuine shock by other players that there are *so many* BDSM lots (did you count that post as “neutral” or “on my side” ???) and other things that completely belie your claim that you have tolerance in TSO. And to characterize my straightforward characterizations of these posts as a “lie” because you don’t agree with what you find there, and to describe me as “caught in a lie” because I challenged your false premises, is yet further evidence of your perversion. You don’t have the tolerance of the people of TSO. Whatever fragile acceptance you achieved by bullying people on every profile with the idea that we must “mind our manners” and “keep an open mind” is only that — fragile. It could collapse at any time. Or be the reason why the company pulls the plug on this game that is supposed to be teen-rated.
9. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 22nd, 2004
   

   Laughing, Dyer, you are too easy. Moving on to a bigger challenge now.
10. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    ROFL, yes, easy to “move on” to avoid facing the fact that you’ve lost an argument. BTW, I see you have your URL back on your profile again. So all your high-and-mighty claims about unilaterally withdrawing it after voluntarily consulting with Maxis are pretty worthless, no? And this website helps children in the game hook up to your lifestyle, as you yourself said, even complaining that kids were e-mailing you and asking for the BDSM version of TSO.

    And the argument you have lost is this, the hole through which a Mack truck could be driven: you claim that there can’t be an adult server, that kids can’t be screened from an adult server, and that kids themselves are the abusive sluts anyway. So how is it that you are able to police your own 21-and-under lot, hmmm???? You surely are not.
11. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    You are obsessed with me Dyer, checking my property description so frequently.

    I took a look at the rules, and it seems to me that the rules pertain to linking to commercial websites. Mine is not a commercial website. I sell nothing on it, link to no commercial sites, and there is no advertising on my site. It is a site created specifically to link to my property in the game. Therefore, I will link to it. Let Maxis challenge me on it if they will.

    Why are you pursuing me so hard Dyer? Nothing better to do? Or do you secretly want my boot at your throat?
12. 

    toy
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    wow….. dyer your getting closer to that ‘tower’ to start shooting from arent you? you yourself are your own worse enemy.. if anyone else even remotely shared your ideas they surely would draw back from posting simply because they dont wish to be associated with a proven liar who also now claims his/her momma helped it. You are quickly moving from being a laughing stock to one who must be pitied.
    toy would wonder how anyones child could be so non caring of their mother and subject her to the so-called email attack while stating they did it to protect themself from unwarranted email or whatever attacks…. stand up for yourself!!!! what ever you are.

    now you seem content at attacking a Lady who has done more to help others than you could only wish to ever accomplish. You throw lies around so freely then try to cover them. Then even go so far as to deny them…. perhaps in your own mind you dont see this, hence ‘one to be pitied’

    there are so many people you are missing out on meeting and getting to know when you hide behind your barred doors and locked windows…. go out once in awhile meet new people your mind is deteriorating at an alarming pace….

    a good start would be admitting mistakes and telling the truth. Be accountable for your actions and words……

    Accountability
    Accountability. One of the basic tenets of the Gorean lifestyle.
    That each person, whether free or slave will be accountable for their actions.
    I have found that while many will speak of Accountablity, few actually comprehend the concept. Being accountable for our actions does not simply mean taking responsibility when we screw up. It also means accepting the consequences of our actions.

    Take for example, the man who collars a slave. Promises her an offline relationship while knowing he has no intention of leaving his blissfully unaware wife and kids. Or the slave who accepts collars from two different men. She visits one on alternate weekends, claiming family responsibilities while visiting the other. Or the woman who is a collared slave, but logs on as a “Panthergirl” when she feels like telling off some of the free.

    Usually, just as they’re about to be exposed, these people “confess their sins.” A huge dramatic scene where they spill their guts and follow that with a zillion excuses to justify their reprehensible behavior. Much the same as Death Row Inmates who find God and religion just as they’re about to get their butts fried.

    We’ve all seen this. The apologies, the excuses. The “Look at what a good person I am, I’m taking responsibility for my actions.”

    But that is only part of what Accountablity is. That’s the easy part. The rest of it is the part that most people just don’t understand. Accepting the consequences of those bad choices they made. That’s the tough part.

    “Ok, I confessed, I said I was sorry…. Now you’re supposed to forgive me.”

    Sorry, folks it doesn’t always work that way. Especially in a community of Goreans. Sometimes, you are not forgiven. Some things are unforgiveable. Oh, there will always be those who will pat you on the head and say “It’s ok, everyone makes mistakes.” But there will also be those who simply turn away and have nothing further to do with you.

    It is at this point, where those who truly have understood the concept of Accountability will accept the consequences of their actions. They know and accept that the loss of that friend or partner is their own fault. They earned it by making the choices they did. There may come a time, further down the path when that person may give them another chance, after they have seen some honest contrition and change in behavior. But then again… that may not happen. Either way, one must accept responsibilty. You have caused this. No one else but you.

    Those who do not fully understand the concept of Accountability will usually react in anger. “How dare you not forgive me!” But, forgiveness is not something you are entitled to in any way. Like anything else when dealing with Goreans, forgiveness is earned, it is not an automatic right. There will be those who will forgive, and those who won’t. Those who do not forgive are not to blame in any way. It is not some “flaw” in that person which makes them unable to forgive. It is their own personal standards which you have failed to meet.

    The failure is not on the part of the one who will not forgive.

    The failure is yours.

    Accept that.

    Live with it.

    You’ve earned it.

    falara kajira toy
13. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    No, boots, thank you, and one glance at your property description, on a roomie of yours that was clouding up the landscape at a vanilla money-making lot, was sufficient.

    It was you who made a huge production of REMOVING your URL for a time, and saying that you had unilaterally done it after asking Maxism and implying that Maxis had suggested you do that, or you had understood that to be Maxis’ suggestion. I thought at the time that was highly wierd. Anyway, let the record show that it’s OK by Maxis and LJ that there’s a site which children in the game can now access at any time to read lovely gilded essays about the wonders of the BDSM lifestyle, linking to horrifyingly chilling essays about depersonalization from pony-racing. That’s fine. But AV Herald or SimsOutofLine had to be XXXXed out by the Maxis staff. OK. We get it.
14. 

    toy
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Your suggesting dyer that everyone when entering a lot should blank out their bio to protect your sensibilities? how narrowminded

    falara kajira toy
15. 

    Mikal
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    A person bio can only “cloud up the landscape” if you read it. lol If don’t wish to read bio’s i highly recommend you don’t.
16. 

    Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    My toy’s disertation on Accountability is true, and an Important one for Goreans.

    In the world today, it seems anyone can get away with anything no matter how outrageous if their Excuse is clever enough. It is small wonder that the Gorean concept of Accountability is so attractive to us.
    At times we will seem Inflexable, and Unforgiving. This is not quite accurate. We Can, na Do forgive, but we also recognize that certain actions ilicite certain consequences.
    If someone i love, has wronged me Deeply, i AM capable of forgiving the hurt in my heart, and even still loving that person, However, it does not give them a walk from the consequences of their actions. If one of my girls were to cheat, by Committing to another Dom/me while Collared to me, I would release them, Banish them from my service. I could forgive the betrayal, Understand All their reasons, (They were weak, the other Dom was so insistant, Fascinating,whatever.) But their Release would still be necessary.

    In Gor,, if you do something wrong, you WILL pay for it. Master Or Slave,, there WILL be consequences.

    Note to Dyer,, Don’t even attempt to reply to this, Your Flip-flopping and wheedling regarding the Numerous lies you have told already has shown us you have no more sense of accountability than you have of Honesty, Just this once, Avoid the temptation of making a Bigger Fool of yourself.

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
17. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Since you all continue to bleat about me “lying” and “misrepresenting” and all the rest, let me *CUT AND PASTE* almost the entire relevant thread from Stratics for your perusal. Are we talking about the same thread? This is the thread locked by the mod Gal Friday, called “D/S? For it? Against it? Part of it?” We must be talking about different threads. This thread has more than 20 separate names contributing to it, many of them twice, not just 17. There is another thread, called something like “Sensitive and Painful” and “Adult Server for TSO?” and these are also relevant but that’s not *only* what I’m talking about. Take a look at this thread specifically about BDSM, and see that several are opposed definitely, several are for tolerating it, but within moderation, several are for tolerating it, but personally find it gives them the creeps and are critical. Many criticize it, even those into it! Imagine! Read and see for yourself how even a BDSMer himself identifies the doms as the most irritating, who spread their dom behavior to every encounter, not only the one with their sub (this was my very, very first encounter with BDSM in TSO, seeing a dom spreading his behavior to another Sim who was outside of his universe completely, when he had no business doing so, and no consent to be playing such power mind games). So there you have it — healthy criticism and revulsion from the citizens of TSO. You can’t misrepresent it. You can’t say I’m a bigot and a kook without saying the same thing about most of these other 20 people, who are for allowing it in the game (as I am), who are willing to tolerate it (I began more willing to tolerate it than I am now) but WHO ARE STILL VERY CRITICAL. WHO STILL FIND IT REPULSIVE. One of the things that bothers them the most is this inane stuff on the profile, “Any problem with me, talk to my dom.”
    So please, read this, and tell me how on earth you can get off telling me I’m the bigot, I’m the lone sniper in the tower. For shame! For shame!
    (These 16 separate players are recorded here, but NOT their entire posts and follow-up replies. It would get too long otherwise. I’ve taken what is relevant and what is critical. I invite you to go to the Stratics board and read the entire locked post. I’m afraid it could be entirely deleted, which is why I post it for posterity’s sake here on this more open board. Note that in no way am I trying to censor or skew these posts, but I don’t want my post to be three times as long. Go over and look. Search under “BDSM” to find it under “City Hall”. Think for yourself. And see that my position is shared by others, and they are not just 2 out of 17 who remain uncritical and oblivious, but 2 out of 17, 15 or 20 of whom are in fact critical, and *made uncomfortable*. This SHINES THROUGH in their posts, if only you can come out of your own BDSM fog and see it. I’m not including the names here because these people haven’t taken part in this AVH debate and there is no sense in subjecting them to the same kind of harassment that I’ve been subjected to.)
    From the City Hall section of the Stratics board:
    1. What are your views on Dom/Sub? For it? Against it? Part of it?

    To be quite frank, I don’t like it. I think its silly that anyone would want to be controlled by a “master” their entire sim life. Whether you’re a “free sub” or not. Every time I see one of the Subs out of the house, I laugh at the way they have to talk: “Yes Master XX”…”Do you need anything Master XX?”…”Cool Master XX”
    2. Personally I say to each his own. But I know I couldn’t walk around as they do saying master and waiting on them hand and foot. That is something I could not do I guess I”m to dom for it, but then again I wouldn’t want a sub male either. I say if they aren’t hurting anyone then leave them be. I don’t understand however the bios where they put “please don’t IM me without asking my Master/Mistress first” that is just beyond weird. I happened to make that mistake with someone and was told rudely not to IM her again!! lol here I was IMIing her to make sure she was ok as her sim was stressing on my lot. I guess she wasn’t allowed to green without permission? lol, But that’s fine now I don’t bother speaking to any of them unless they speak first.
    3. While I recognize peoples’ freedom to engage in just about any consensual activity in real life, I feel that this has no place in a teen rated game.
    4. As for 13 year olds. If you are an adult you are playing a game that allows 13 year olds. Maxis designed this game for 13 year olds to play. Ive seen nothing in the terms of service that says a 13 year old has to disclose his age when going on your lots. Ive seen nothing that says a 13 year old has to tell you he is 13 when he is engaged in a conversation about “BDSM” or sex. Unlike most adult chat rooms on the web, they dont even have to hit a key that says “I AM 18″

    13 year olds are allowed in the game. If you are interacting with players in a sexual way that could be concidered “illegal” in many parts of the country. As an adult you are responsible for your actions. Do not blame the parent who very well may have bought this game for there child, seen the “T” rating and thought nothing else about it. Whether they should or should not allow there child to play, never excuses any one elses actions.
    5. Ok first off, I’m as clueless as Beatty. What are we talking about?
    6. What gives me the heebie jeebies are the issues of power and control within a BDSM relationship. In my own life, I have such a hard time justifying the giving up of power and control to anyone but myself. And, even when I look at other people’s relationships…regular old, heterosexual, vanilla relationships, I’ll sometimes see what partner who has more power and control in the relationship and I think that is rather sad.
    At any rate, I’m trying to sound as least offensive here as possible, because I truly do believe that anybody should be able to do whatever the heck they want to do as long as everybody else who is affected by it is fine with it. Buuuuut, and I feel I do understand what is going on here. I’ve had friends who are involved in this community. And, I just have a hard time with it. But, again, it’s not my place to have a hard time with it because it doesn’t involve me. I just have power/control issues. And, relinquishing power and control or even being in the seat that has the power and control–well, it still gives me the heebie jeebies. And, quite frankly, it’s the issues of power and control that I wouldn’t want my hypothetical children exposed to in TSO. I could care less if they were exposed to the sex.
    7. The only instance I specifically remember being a little weird for me occured when I was at a body skill lot in JP.. I noticed that day that there were quite a few Dom/sub’s in the house but I didn’t mind. I always tend to wear the leather outfit (with straps and such) in the black costume trunk because I’ve always been fond of that outfit and wear it often.. let’s just say I got quite the response from all the sub’s there.. in the lot chat AND in IM, lol. Needless to say, I changed my outfit for the rest of my visit there.

    8.One time I was looking at the list of romance houses (*blush*) in Alphaville, and I was astonished to see how many BDSM houses there were. (I was also one of those who didn’t even know what BDSM meant, until I read the property descriptions and got the drift.) I don’t have a problem with it, especially because they seem to be discreet and keep it within their own properties. I just frankly found it amazing that it was so widespread — I would have thought it was just a tiny little niche of people who were into this. Lol, what a sheltered life I lead!
    9. I think it’s crazy!!!!
    10. If people wanna play this way, I’m good with it. Have fun, and, no, I have not seen any of the D/s relationships, on my lot at least, act in a sexual manner.
    11. I had a sub come to my house once. After months of being open, this had never happened. So I took as an opportunity to ask questions, which he did openly answer for me. It appears that the sub can talk to whoever he wants when he’s not in the Dom’s presence, no matter what. Some Doms allow their subs to talk to others, but others do not. I guess the protocol is to read the profile, and if it says “if you need to address me, speak to Master X”, then you can’t talk to them, otherwise, you can. Personally, in my TSO traveling experience, I have never seen a sub talk to anyone but their Dom when the Dom was in their presence
    12.If you are NOT in the D/s lifestyle, simply do what you have always done.. greet, address, chat up everyone as individual. Good advice for most TSO situations, Charme. I’d like to thank everyone who participated in this thread for sharing their views. As it seems most everyone has had a chance to speak their piece, and because this thread is flirting with becoming raunchier than a PG rating would allow, it is now locked.
    13. Lieonel..I stated that I DO watch my behavior. However….having already raised two young adults it is my firm belief that the responsibility for where they go/what they do/what they encounter is first mine and their responsibility and I dont trust it in the hands of a 3rd party. Best defense is to shield them when you can but prepare your child for life. And dont be surprised if your child is just as inquisitive as you were when you were their age and ferret out a bit of trouble on their own. I have never seen a D/s couple on TSO act in a sexual manner. I cannot say the same for many hetero/vanillas and you dont have to go to a romance lot to find that.

    14. I mostly agree with Charme. I am into BDSM in RL. But I personally am mostly into the SM part, not so much the DS part. And I find the whole uppercase and lowercase thing fairly silly. Also I have noticed that, when I go to conferences and such, the tops who have “Master ____” or “Sir ____” on their name badge tend to be the very ones who are annoying, or who don’t have good boundaries and treat everyone as if they were their own bottom, etc
    15. Can I cover my eyes and hide behind xxx? Really, I don’t care what others do, as long as it’s done responsibly. I realize from some friends I’ve met in game that it’s generally a very mutually respectful lifestyle, but I wonder how you filter out the curious kids from the adults.
    16. teehee… well, I don’t like to judge anyone by whatever they want to do. But, I gotta admit, I don’t see how it could be the least bit enjoyable. Being in a sexual minority already, and having made contact with various persuasions of sexual tastes, it’s something that I thought about long before TSO and came to basically the same conclusion. I’m all about equality. And, I realize that some people enjoy it, and I also realize that for some, it’s just roleplaying. But, the whole thing just seems icky to me…on either side of the fence. I don’t like the idea of being controlled, as anyone who’s read any of my posts can probably figure out. But, at the same time, I don’t like controlling anybody either. It’s just not in my nature. So, the whole thing is beyond me and not at all something I would ever be a part of. But, I guess I’m not against it. If that’s what somebody wants to do, so be it. But, me? Kinda gives me the heebie jeebies
18. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    This statement makes no sense to me and is based on some kind of misunderstanding: “You are quickly moving from being a laughing stock to one who must be pitied. toy would wonder how anyones child could be so non caring of their mother and subject her to the so-called email attack while stating they did it to protect themself from unwarranted email or whatever attacks…. stand up for yourself!!!! what ever you are.”

    1. If anyone gets a person’s e-mail merely from seeing them in a newspaper, it’s because they are malevolent and bent on finding it and attacking them. It would be hard to understand how I could subject her to an e-mail attack when I didn’t give out her e-mail nor did those newspapers. Some enterprising young thugs might find it, but it’s actually not so likely. I speculated about the virus; she thinks it can’t be related. But if anyone is “subjecting” to an e-mail attack, it’s those who do the attacking, not those who make public statements. You really cannot get it straight, can you. You really do not understand where violence ends, and human integrity and dignity begins.

    2. She isn’t in the debate about BDSM, has no where near the energy I have about it, doesn’t care about it, and is busy with RL. Furthermore, she didn’t say anything about BDSM as such in her interviews, but made the more generic points about free speech and the need for an adult server for lots of reasons, not specifically BDSM. It is the *journalists* who expressed horror, BTW, if you look at it closely, i.e. Hiawatha said something about how “horrified Sims look on while people are invited to join in BDSM fantasies.* That’s what HE says. Not even I would say that any Sims are looking on horrified but my own self, because most of the time, people either don’t understand what BDSM is, don’t care, or think it can live in the game, as long as it doesn’t come after them.

    3. I haven’t “hidden behind her” like some quaking retard but chose not to have all the vicious, evil junk-yard dogs on this page attacking me in RL with my RL name. No thanks. And you’ve provided additional proof of why that is necessary.
19. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Dyer,

    “Not even I would say that any Sims are looking on horrified but my own self, because most of the time, people either don’t understand what BDSM is, don’t care, or think it can live in the game, as long as it doesn’t come after them.”

    Thank you for this admission chere.
    There you have it my Friends, Dyer Finally admits he is NOT representative. of the Common point of view in AV regarding BD/SM.

    Our point is Finally made, from his very own “mouth”.

    Now, if we can just get him to realize that a Minority, No matter how Vocal, has no right to Force it’s will on the Majority.

    Touche’ Again chere.

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
20. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Read the other posts, chere. That’s the point. Revulsion, revulsion, revulsion. *When asked to think about it* they experience revulsion. In the game, they either ignore it, don’t know what it is (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to explain what BDSM is, and then go further and explain what it is in the game), haven’t seen it much because they are in their own little worlds, or don’t care. But once they focus, they readily say: “Not for us”.
21. 

    toy
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    wake up call again dyerbrook. quoting……
    “1. If anyone gets a person’s e-mail merely from seeing them in a newspaper, it’s because they are malevolent and bent on finding it and attacking them. It would be hard to understand how I could subject her to an e-mail attack when I didn’t give out her e-mail nor did those newspapers. Some enterprising young thugs might find it, but it’s actually not so likely. I speculated about the virus; she thinks it can’t be related. But if anyone is “subjecting” to an e-mail attack, it’s those who do the attacking, not those who make public statements. You really cannot get it straight, can you. You really do not understand where violence ends, and human integrity and dignity begins.”

    no matter who did this that only you claim was done… the fact is YOU submitted your own mother to this…… do you not feel the least bit accountable for that abhorrent action?

    quoting again….. “She isn’t in the debate about BDSM, has no where near the energy I have about it, doesn’t care about it, and is busy with RL. Furthermore, she didn’t say anything about BDSM as such in her interviews, but made the more generic points about free speech and the need for an adult server for lots of reasons, not specifically BDSM. It is the *journalists* who expressed horror, BTW, if you look at it closely, i.e. Hiawatha said something about how “horrified Sims look on while people are invited to join in BDSM fantasies.* That’s what HE says. Not even I would say that any Sims are looking on horrified but my own self, because most of the time, people either don’t understand what BDSM is, don’t care, or think it can live in the game, as long as it doesn’t come after them.”

    so toy can draw the feeling from this rant that at least one person in your family has common sense.. toy will continue to ask why then you submitted your mother to your disregard of others?

    quoting…… “I haven’t “hidden behind her” like some quaking retard but chose not to have all the vicious, evil junk-yard dogs on this page attacking me in RL with my RL name. No thanks. And you’ve provided additional proof of why that is necessary.”

    no you didnt hid behind her you calmly shoved her to the frontlines to protect yourself…. how low and pathetic can one be?

    rest well dyerbrook toy sure does

    falara kajira toy
22. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    “(I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to explain what BDSM is, and then go further and explain what it is in the game), :

    Hmm Dyerbrook how can you explain something you have never had a part in? my problem is your wide based statements not your feelings..

    I am still waiting for you to propose a non segeration answer to what you seem as a problem..

    Phin tried really hard to teach morals but I think he finally found he didn’t have all the answers for he stopped posting… now to just get you to see the light as well..

    ok Dyerbrook how about this since you have explained it to the masses already what is BDSM to you?
23. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    My God Dyer… are you a mind reader or an empath or telepath? You tell us how others feel about us. Yet that is not what the majority says publicly, to others, or to us. Your gizmo is broken I think.

    Now don’t go running off and making up more non-existant support, or pointing to some thread saying the magical word “numbers” that if read we would discover does not support you at all.

    Most “normal” people Dyer are not as obsessed as you are. And yes, you have wandered out of the “normal” realm with this obsession, and I would be willing to bet that even your revered mother is more than a little worried about you.

    Get help.
24. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    LJ, is that how you lose every argument, by ranting that the other person must “need help”? That’s pretty silly. Why not try to use logic and rhetoric in a normal debate instead of resorting to that sort of pathetic response.

    Catseye, with your high school education, you don’t need to get fancy. “Explain BDSM” means simply spelling out the letters in that acronym, duh.
25. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    LOL ah Dyerism the act of avoiding a question you do not want to face… so BDSM to you Dyerbrook is just an acronym then why deem it evil for the question was what is BDSM to you boy
26. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    Dyer, you are not rational and not worthy of a discussion or argument. And you do need help.
27. 

    Mistress maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Dyer-the-liar.:

    “(I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to explain what BDSM is, and then go further and explain what it is in the game), ”

    Yes,, and Hitler explained to all of Germany about the jews.

    I can just Imagine Your explainations chere, and i Know what they are worth. More Lies from Dyer the Liar.

    You know NOTHING about us, You don’t Wish to Know, and Further, you want to do everything in your Power to see that no one else finds out for themselves.
    “Dyer-the Liar’s way, or NO way at all” seems to be your creed.

    My Lady Julianna demanded from you a List of those people and Groups you would see Barred from TSO, and you keep Obfuscating. Are you Afraid to answer?

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
28. 

    toy
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    toy would have to thank dyer for one thing… since it has started its one person crusade there have been so many openminded people visiting the BDSM/Gor properties seeking honest, open discussion of what we are about.. all have left with much more acceptance of us…… what a wonderful thing you have accomplished dyer.. such a pity that you will never learn about us living in your deep, dark, dank hole of self-abuse.

    falara kajira toy
29. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 27th, 2004
    

    I think that list would might be too large for Dyer to make, for as he goes on he will look around and see so many more people and groups who don’t see the world his way or are different from him in his way. Of course these people who are not like Dyer must be evil.

    (Dyerism: A belief that those not like Dyerbrook are evil.)
30. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 27th, 2004
    

    Uri:

    In one of the other threads, it has been suggested that you and Dyer are one and the same.

    On the Surface, the statement does not seem reasonable, But chere,, it does Beg an answer.

    Is “Dyer” simply a tool of yours to keep these threads “Interesting”?

    I await an answer chere.
    And remember, If Dyer answers, we probably won’t beleive him anyway, so i think only YOU should address yourself to this one.

    Maria.
31. 

    lina
    

    Jan 28th, 2004
    

    Dryer a word of advice. Perhaps you should try a different approach on educating others on your beliefs. Children call people names. It would be hard for anyone to take you seriously as you constantly verbally abuse others and even those you have never met. Most enjoy a healthy debate. It is not one you provide. In order to get people to listen to you, you must show respect, even if you don’t agree with how they play their ‘game’. If you have children, my advice, is to not let them play TSO. I would not allow anyone under the age of 16 to play TSO or surf the net unmonitered. Perhaps a more intelligent approach would be to argue your point with Maxis. Apparently our community does not bother Maxis nor are we breaking the rules of TOS. It seems you have took a ‘game’ and made it unenjoyable for yourself. Why ‘play’ then? I would not play a game if it made me unhappy. Not everyone who lives in our community participates in whipping and sexual scening, that is up to the individual. We are very different, some are into the lifestyle in rl, some are online, some are simply roleplaying. We have great tolerance for the different people in our community. BDSM/GOR is such a broad lifestyle..to generalize it shows ignorance. Most are not ~into it~ all. Some like only one aspect of it. In 1950, wives were very submissive, catering to the man in the house. Yes we have grown from that.. but only because now we have a choice. I choose to allow my Husband/Master to make decisions for our family. He has earned that trust and respect. He works hard and loves us extremely. My online Master..he too has earned my respect and trust…to the point i allow him to control my online life. And he has provided a very educational and growing experience for me..or rather this girl. For she does normally speak in 3rd person, which teaches her to not be self-centered and it’s fun, just as is learning a fictional language. This ‘girl’, wonder why the community still … argues or tries to debate with Dryer, it is pointless and she would urge we post our comments and simply ignore HIM?HER …adventually he would find a new way to entertain himselves. Be Well A/all
32. 

    toy
    

    Feb 1st, 2004
    

    toy would agree jerag lina except toy has this awful urge to pick on the handicapped so toy will continue to pick on dyer hehehehe

    falara kajira toy
33. 

    Raven
    

    Feb 16th, 2004
    

    Dyerbrook wrote at January 4, 2004 07:22 PM (full quote):

    Yes, indeed, reason has prevailed — only not at Alphaville Herald. I would urge you all to hike on over to the Stratics board where a thread was opened about BDSM and then locked after 2 pages by the mod. In this thread you can see a number of people saying this is a teen-rated game, and BDSM has no place in it. You can see people expressing shock and dismay at how many houses there are. You can see people just expressing their ordinary, Yankee, common-sense dislike of the notion of “slaves” and “masters”. And so on. Quite the interesting debate. And I wasn’t even in on it. So you have to admit this is not “Dyerbrook’s 15 minutes of fame” or anything of the kind — the posters at AV Herald don’t represent the middle ground on this subject, or the average Joe in the Sims — who finds it a repulsive lifestyle, but isn’t willing to fight against it, but wishes somebody would do something. Go and read it, and stop deluding yourselves into thinking this is just the crusade of one Sim tilting at windmills.

    Here’s a… Link to that Stratics thread.

    Lady Julianna wrote at January 5, 2004 11:27 AM (in part):

    [Dyerbrook] keeps pointing to this Stratics thread as proof and support for himself, claiming it demonstrates that he is not alone and that there are many others who feel as he does. I took a look at the thread and did a little scoring.

    I rated each of the 17 posters as feels BDSM is wrong in the game, neutral, and feels people should be able to play as they wish in the game. Here are the result.

    Those who feel that BDSM is wrong in the game: 2. I will, unlike Dyer, name names: paupsers and Harvey.

    Neutral 3: Beatty, Katheryne, and DefLeppChik.

    Feel people should be able to play as they wish to in the game 12: KithKanathalasan, Charme, HoneyBuns, Smoorefu, Allison Chains, Lieonel, Camber@Alpha, YoungUn, Amparo, Poet, Acqlenn123, and CreekGirl.

    So, 12 out of the 17 posters in that thread that Dyer claims as supporting his view and his cause actually expressed that they felt that people should be able to play as they choose in the game.

    Dyerbrook wrote at January 20, 2004 09:06 PM (in part):

    It hardly matters if only 2 out of 17 supported a position of mine, as this is hardly a scientific poll.

    Dyerbrook, you knew that Stratics thread wasn’t a “scientific poll” when you yourself brought it up here.

    But with your own description of it — as showing what “a number of people” (2) were saying — you opened the door for Lady Julianna to point out that a larger “number of people” (15) did not support that position of yours, and that 12 of them held the opposite position.

    In fact, she inadvertently understated her case. See below.

    Dyerbrook wrote at January 21, 2004 09:18 PM (in part):

    I don’t see anything about me saying I have a MAJORITY of posters or even MANY. It says A NUMBER.

    And Dyerbrook wrote at January 22, 2004 04:14 AM (in part):

    A number means just that — a number!

    Absolutely true, Dyerbrook. Your compelling arguments have changed a number of minds. A number of people, after reviewing this thread, have even declared that yours was the one and only truthful voice in the Alphaville Herald. What’s more, a number of posters here have expressed their determination to get you elected as President of the United States, so that you can impose your ideas on the entire nation.

    (Zero is also a number.)

    Dyerbrook wrote at January 23, 2004 04:57 PM (in part):

    We must be talking about different threads. This thread has more than 20 separate names contributing to it, many of them twice, not just 17.

    Correct. I count 25 separate posters. The 17 counted by Lady Julianna are the only ones on the page linked by Urizenius (LINK). There is a second page, with 8 more posters (LINK). A better link would have been to the all-on-one-page version (LINK), which is the link I provide above.

    So what are the opinions expressed by those remaining 8 posters?

34. turnerama2: “To tell you the truth, unless the BDSM thing is ABOUT sex, it seems somewhat pointless to me. Without the sex, what’s the payoff? A cleaner house without having to pay for a maid? A boss without a paycheck?”

I don’t see an opinion on the issue there, so I count this as “neutral” (#4).

35. Lilly Lopez: “Ok first off, I’m as clueless as Beatty. What are we talking about? 2nd off, 13 year olds, probaly here and see more sex and cuss words in RL. Trust me! you do, I know thats what a 13 year old is not supposed to do, but for some reason, they just do! Comparing TSO and RL, RL is more ‘R’ rated. I’m 16, I should know, my mom knows the adults who play the game. She is glad that I also hang out with people more my age! But it doesn’t hurt to have friends that are 21, 23, umm.. 42. Where does all this adult act partake? School! So, I’m not sure if a 13 year old or 14, should be hearing words like this, but you never know about the ‘Real World’. It’s quite worse.”

I’m not sure, but I think “I’m not sure” counts as “neutral” (#5).

36. Cocoanut: “I defend the BDSM people all the time. Seems to me they are just another minority group, and as such, I treat them as they wonderful people they no doubt mostly are, and encourage others to do the same. I feel they deserve the same kindness and respect as any other minority, and should be judged individually, just as you would with anyone, majority or minority in any fashion, sexual or otherwise.” [Then goes on to object to the term "vanilla".]

This seems to express the opinion Lady Julianna refers to as “feels people should be able to play as they wish in the game” (#13).

37. CrystalBluu: “Personally I say to each his own.”

Another for “play as they wish” (#14).

38. Emma Dilorenzo: “My opinion reflects most (what I beleive to be most) of the opinions in this thread. Live and let live.”

Another for “play as they wish” (#15).

39. Thursday: “I didn’t really mind. It’s their choice, it’s their way of playing, and I don’t see any reason to interfere with it as long as they respect me enough to keep me out of it.. lol.”

Another for “play as they wish” (#16).

40. Trish The-Dish: [Doesn't directly "vote" on the issue, but tells a story. Comments in part:] “Ok, I am as vanilla as they get *giggle*… I have a roommate that is a Dom IRL and in another city.”

Given that last, I might suspect she’d vote for “play as they wish”, but will conservatively mark this “neutral” (#6).

41. Gal Friday: [As Moderator, thanks everyone for their views, then locks the thread "because this thread is flirting with becoming raunchier than a PG rating would allow".]

Again I’ll mark this “neutral” (#7).

So here’s the count I get (revising Lady Julianna’s):

Those who feel that BDSM is wrong in the game: 2: paupsers and Harvey.

Neutral: 7: Beatty, Katheryne, DefLeppChik, turnerama2, Lilly Lopez, Trish The-Dish, Gal Friday.

Feel people should be able to play as they wish to in the game: 16: KithKanathalasan, Charme, HoneyBuns, Smoorefu, Allison Chains, Lieonel, Camber@Alpha, YoungUn, Amparo, Poet, Acqlenn123, CreekGirl, Cocoanut, CrystalBluu, Emma Dilorenzo, Thursday.

That is, Dyerbrook may now confidently claim the support of 2 out of 25 posters, while poor Lady Julianna must make do with only 16 supporting votes, a mere 8-to-1 (rather than 6-to-1) ratio.

Yea, verily, as the Sage hath Spoken, “A number means just that — a number!”