The Alphaville Herald

255 Responses to “Interview with Gorean Mistress Maria LaVeaux and her slave, Toy”

1. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   I tend to be like my grandmother, the British one. It takes a lot to peeve me, but once angry, I can stay angry for a very long time.
2. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   And I have yet to see any serious attempt at apology from Sly, just more arrogant posing.
3. 

   urizenus
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   Sometimes slights get amplified in blogspace. I don’t want to get in the middle of a spat between two Dommes (really, I don’t!), but this seems like one of those that are amplified by artifacts of the medium.

   Meanwhile, I note that this interview was picked up by a boing boing “article” on sex and gaming and from there made its way to this post on Fleshbot.

   And then there is this blog, which is attempting to one-up Toy on the moral superiority front.

   Also, Maria, your discussion of verbal/behavioral conventions that have emerged in the alpha bdsm community was fascinating. If you have more of those (and any insight into how/why they emerged) that would be really interesting.
4. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   Laughing, you are a wise man Uri
5. 

   Mistress Sly
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   As I have stated before I have not been hostile to anyone here or would ever be hostile to another. I have no apology for my view points. I choose not to flame others.

   Maria I would enjoy visiting your lot but I think I am not around the same time you are. I had one time visited just before this article was written and spoke with Toy but that was the only time I have seen your lot open when I am on.

   The above article was posted for all to view, and I suggest that it may help with some statements that the resident Dyerbrook has pulled out of the thin air.

   Mistress Sly
6. 

   Catseye
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   Ah Mistress Sly unfortunally the resident Dyerbrook will worm out of any statements or just ignore them the only right thing is what he believes to be right… his trying to impose this rightness on those who do not accept it being right is ok for him yet he screams that is what we are doing to others and it is wrong..

   Double Standards
7. 

   Mistress Sly
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   Catseye,

   True true but sometimes back up helps. And as the article gives some facts and figures about our lifestyle in whatever form it is. As someone shared the article with me I share it with you all here on Alphaville Herald.

   Mistress Sly
8. 

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   Oh My,, Two links to us now?? Mercy my toy, We are almost famous, ~Fans herself~

   I Cannot tell you how pleased it makes me feel to see so many people wishing just to enlighten themselves about us. . Knowledge is the key to understanding. understanding , the key to Tolerance, and Tolerance, the key to Peace.

   Mistress Sly, I am on fairly regularly. I am on Pacific time so it might appear that i am on rather late some times. If you wish to View my property, or Visit, Just IM me, i will gladly go home and open my property. This Friday, i am Hosting a little event, at 8:30 PST.You are invited to attend, and i will save a seat for you.

   Uri,
   Our customs and conventions are many, I am not sure just how universal they are, so i tried to point out some of those that appeared to me to be more Regional. “any insight into how/why they emerged”? Well chere,, as i pointed out with one at least, it starts with one person with a unique way of doing a simple thing. As i said, the Simple act of Warming my sheets for me,,I Live in a cooler climate chere,, and i Really hate getting into a Cold bed. It seemed logical that, If one owns a slave, this mildly unpleasant task of taking the cold edge off a bed should fall to her SO,, I told my toy to Warm my bed for me. At first, Among our room mates there was little reaction, but once in a while one would give the instruction to a sub.Soon, Guests were Mimicing it as well and it spread. At one point, when the practice was more or less unique to me, I used it to spot a troublesome sub Wannabe who was briefly in my service, and had been Released for poor behaviour. She returned to me with a New Avatar, claiming to be new to the game, and new to BD/SM, but without thinking, she offered to warm my bed for me. Bingo,, I knew who she was. Lol.
   Every so Often A Domme will come up with a particular order or service they want,, or a Sub has a particularly colourful way of doing something. Maybe others witnessing it See something in it that seems right and it catches on, Or perhaps it just remains a personal touch.
   We all bring our own personalities to what we do. the methods grow and evolve. I think they have done so Faster as the community grows.
   Look at my home’s location within the Rose Thorn Gardens,,At one time, I was just outside the edge of it. Noy, my home is more or less in the geographical centre. I haven’t moved,, the Community has enveloped me.

   Thank you all for your questions and observations, and please, Keep them coming.

   Mistress Maria.
9. 

   Mistress Sly
   

   Jan 13th, 2004
   

   Maria,

   Ah that could be why I am on the east coast so maybe when you are coming into Alphaville I am getting ready to go to bed. I will see if I can attend your event this Friday evening, would it be ok if my slave joins me.

   Mistress Sly
10. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    Sly;
    Of course chere, He can Kneel behind your chair, I will save some Floor space for him.

    Mistress Maria.
11. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    Regarding the article in “Time,” I see this journalist has just fallen for the sensational, and not questioned any of the propaganda that BDSMers dish out, so eager is he to publish a tittilating story. But he does note this:

    “It is a bedrock principle of common law that consent is no defense against assault charges, and many prosecutors see BDSM activities like flogging as assault.”

    Thank you. That’s exactly the point I’ve been making here for days.
12. 

    Mistress Sly
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    Maria,

    Thank you I will see if we can make it to your event Friday evening.

    Mistress Sly
13. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    ah so Dyerbrook you would also consider the woman and man having consenual sex then a day or two after the woman claims it as rape ok then as well?

    but I would like the name of the prosecuters so when our sons play football and breaks a leg from a tackle we can file assualt charges on the one who tackled him.
14. 

    Nicholas
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Maria and Toy, thank you both for sharing your view points on what it is to be Gorean. I had never heard of Gor until I read this post and I will admit I find it fascinating. Albiet, not for me. But I am always interested in learning something new. It’s sad that so many would rather push aside something new because they are scared of how they may react if they were to actually learn something about it. I embrace new knowledge and new experiences and I may very well pop in for a visit one of these days. Have a blest day and I look forward to reading more.

    Nicholas
15. 

    toy
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    ~glances at Dyerbrook and snickers~ still trying to convience Yourself that only You have the solution to a problem that doesnt need to be solved? still paranoid toy sees toy would think by now that You would have realized in these posts by now that no one really cares what You think or believe.. its been pointed out to You over and over just how fanatical and untrue Your rants are… but You do perservere… looking for a small point in any post so You can attack that person posting and pray for a reply…. and then just say the same old untruths over and over until each person realizes its just Your attempt for grasping attention….. toy learned this a week or so back and no longer replies to Your untruths.. but toy does get many chuckles from your posts but toy also notices daily more and more are just not paying attention to You

    be well Dyerbrook

    falara kajira toy
16. 

    urizenus
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    I thought this article in the Boston Globe seemed relevant.
17. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Nicholas.

    Once again, i say Thank you to someone who can become curious about us. Learn about us, Decide it isn’t for him, but still Acknowledge our right to exist, and to live as we choose.

    I am sure there will be more to read as this thread seems to have struck a cord with people. As for dropping in, I have mentioned my property name above, feel free to join us any time for an evening. our doors are open to anyone who is open to us.
    And as for having a Blest day, I will because i have my toy.

    Maria.
18. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Regarding the idea of a woman protesting a sexual encounter after she seemingly consented a day or two later: I’m for the courts deciding this. And I would have to say that the feminist Andrea Dworkin has commented on this rather astutely: the punishment for getting drunk and going in a frat boy’s room should be a hangover, not a rape. I think that case from Columbia U mentioned in Time bears a lot more scrutiny, and no court in the land will award you the right to assault and enslave other human beings.
19. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Uri,
    I read the article, as i have read many similar articles and the one thing that jumps out at me is usually the writer has spent no time in-game and all his opinions are based on the few people he has chosen for his interview.
    this sort of Indirect reporting usually leads to sweeping and misleading statements like “Alphaville’s a tough town, the sort of place where even the street-smart are rarely safe and newcomers are often eaten alive. ” This is a Highly prejudicial statement, and obviously was the Preformulated opinion of the writer before he began his interview process.

    His knowledge of game mechanics is quite obviously outdated, as proven by the “Lot Job” reference. a toy of the Mafia’s that has been neutralized many months ago.

    Was the article informative? To us in game, NO. We are well aquainted with the various Mafia’s and their activities, and many of us probably don’t equate their activities with those of a self appointed on line policing agency (The interviewee in that segment freely admits that their activities often drift into the realm of griefing.).
    His take on the BD/SM community was decidedly onesided, but at least it stopped short of demands for our ouster.

    Mean streets of AV? I say there are sections of any community, On line, or off, where one might not feel completely at ease. but to give the impression that AV is a sex crazed slum is entirely unfair.
    Would one class the Sim Arts community in that view i wonder?
    Abraham Lincon was quoted as saying “If one goes through this life looking for evil, one will surely find it.” This writer wanted, i beleive, to convince people that TSO in general, and AV in particular was completely out of control. (His Plug for Sociolotron was an interesting and telling point).
    Read between the lines. Nowhere did he mention Fueled radio, or the Sim Art Gallery,(A very clever and pleasant house. or the game-show houses, or the contest-skill lots, or any of the places where people can go to have fun without partaking of adult activity. Those places exist, They ARE the majority of lots in TSO So,, why didn’t they get any ink? Simple, People having innocent fun doesn’t sell newspapers (Or Magazines).And as for the Sim Mafia’s (And the SSG, he forgot to mention them as well) I have perhaps once in game, encountered them, and had NO trouble at all from them.
    TSO is what you make of it for yourself, and AV is like any other town, you will find a patch quilt of ALL sorts of play. We are NOT only about Mafia wars, prostitution and Con Games and to represent us as such is In my opinion nothing more than Ignorance, or Blatant Fraud.

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
20. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    oops I must have missed the word enslave in that article.. as for the violence why not allow the courts to decide as well
21. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Yes Maria Shock sells… whether in games… papers… magazines.. tv shows etc… I mean just look at the reality shows now a days. the things they make them do just to make money and even go farther what does this make the middle eastern countries think of us when they are shown these programs..~shakes his head~
22. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    “You would have realized in these posts by now that no one really cares what You think or believe.. ”

    I care about what Dyerbrook thinks and believes.

    “It is a bedrock principle of common law that consent is no defense against assault charges, and many prosecutors see BDSM activities like flogging as assault.”

    This does not translate to football. Football injuries would be more of an accidental nature, in that it is not the avowed purpose of the players to inflict pain on one another. (If one player deliberately broke the leg of another, then, yes, charges could be filed.)

    The analogy to consensual sex is faulty also. The law presumes that if it is consensual, then it is not rape (unless one of the parties is underage), and the burden is then to prove that it was not consensual.

    In common law, because one has agreed to be beaten does not exonerate the one who does the beating. There have been a number of instances in which people have contacted each other online or in other ways to receive or deliver various SM activities. One recently involved a man who searched online for someone who wanted to be killed. He found a man who sincerely wanted this, and was into all the SM trappings involved. They got together and the first man obliged and killed him.

    Yes, it was consensual – but no, that doesn’t mean the guy couldn’t be charged with murder.

    The same legal concept applies in cases of injury or harm resulting from bondage, discipline, or other BDSM activities, however consensual they may have been.

    coco
23. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Coco so you believe that spanking a child is assualt? how about boxing? just testing what limits assualt in your mind… coco though I agree broken bones.. death permenant disfigurement should be treated as crimes but in cases like I mentioned these are abuse..

    I spank my wife in the bedroom.. I use handcuffs, nipple clamps on her at times .. she even initaites it at times as well are these actions illegal? but they do fall into the catergory of BDSM… hmm maybe I am BDSM vanillia. I bet 95% of us here would agree that going past what each other has consented to is wrong.. that causing permenant injury where one can not function in daily life is wrong… but to lump it into one simple statement that BDSM is wrong is where we have a problem with it… at least we as a group come out and tell you what our preference is… you can’t say the same for the vanilla who hits his wife in the face can you? or the child predator…

    I too care what Dyerbrook thinks even though I judge it wrong in my views at least the way he is saying it is wrong.. the wording changes the definition.. do I believe BDSM is wrong? no … Do I think that some levels of BDSM is wrong? yes for me it is but I can not say it is wrong for others…
24. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Good morning Coco.

    A few points chere,
    First, Re: “I care about what Dyerbrook thinks and believes.”
    Many of us did as well chere, However, if you read back the full extent of his postings, i think you can see why some of us have lost patience or interest in him, Especially when more enlightened, yet dissenting viewpoints (such as your own) are available to us.

    Second:
    “This does not translate to football. Football injuries would be more of an accidental nature, in that it is not the avowed purpose of the players to inflict pain on one another. (If one player deliberately broke the leg of another, then, yes, charges could be filed.)”
    Watch an NHL Hockey game some time. Fight after fight, year after year, and to date Once, and only Once has charges been filed against a player for in game Violence. and many,Many of those fights result in medium to serious injury. Their defence, and indeed, the defence of Most who play, Organize, commentate or watch?? “It’s all part of the Game”.

    Third:
    “The same legal concept applies in cases of injury or harm resulting from bondage, discipline, or other BDSM activities, however consensual they may have been.”
    Yes,, If and ONLY if the injured party decides to Level charges.
    In many Jurisdictions, Police coming upon scenes of spousal abuse have been given power to level charges on behalf of the Battered party. But i do not know of any other instance where this power exists and in cases of BD/SM, the police and prosecutors are more or less powerless to charge with assault. A variety of other Misdemeanor charges are available in many jurisdictions but these tend to apply in Public situations only.
    My personal experiences?, RL, I lived for two years with another Domme. Our lovemaking usually consisted of some very vigerous physical confrontations,,, We Attacked each other. This was how we made love. Our fights Many times almost wrecked our appartment, and on at least five occasions Police were called by worried neighbors. The officers found themselves confronted by two Laughing, red faced women, Torn Clothing, Battered and bruised, and sometimes Bleeding as we explained ourselves (The officers usually got quite a chucle out of it as well). The Full extent of the legal reprecussions, A request by police to keep the noise down as not to disturb our neighbors. They recognized the fully consensual nature of our Battling, and left us in peace.
    There was no Assault, there was no Abuse.
    There was just us making love in a way that stimulated us both. and the law could and would only intervene where it impinged on others rights and freedoms, A Noise Bylaw.
    You say consent has nothing to do with it, but indeed, in reality, it does.

    Mistress Maria.
25. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Maria may I add to your last post that.. before Dyerbrook points it out.. it was the noise not the fact of your act that was complaint.. same as calling the cops because the radio was too loud…

    I have yet to see a BDSM scene in a Skill lot in game.. or in a casino or in a cafe… when I am there… I have seen the A/all speech but this is speech that has been adopted by the BDSM community of AV this does not make it BDSM… I have seen gorean speech in these lots yet again this is speech not BDSM… if one speaks Spanish that does not make him Spanish in Decent… it is a language and a way of speaking… Northerners call Carbonated Soft Drinks.. Pop or Soda Pop in the South they call them Coke no matter what brand they maybe drinking.. it is speech and the way they have adapted it to their way of life…

    in addition I chuckled at” Not so, said EA spokesman Jeff Brown. “There’s a rule that says no sexual content allowed in the game.”"

    Makes me Wonder what EA’s definination of Sexual content is? I mean there are the romance lots there are the Love tubs and Love Beds I see these as sexual content

    oops I bet Dyerbrook was going to use that as a Point against BDSM in the game… What you call flowers I may call roses… what you call cold I may call warm (this one I will almost bet on with most reading this) it is our preceptions that make things what they are to us… Dyer has a right to think what he does but that does not give him the right to impose his thoughts on us.. all thoughts are valueable for with out difference in thought and opinion we become stagnat and cease to grow and expand..

    Laws are set by Man… because it is Illegal does not make it wrong.. because it is Legal does not make it right.. Look back in History at the Jim Crow laws the Blue Laws were these right? not at all but they were laws… I see no difference between Cigarettes and Marijunia why is one legal and the other not? both are plants.. both are used to smoke.. both influence the body and mind.. the only differnence is that cigarettes kill people every day… where I have not read anything about smoking pot killing people.. maybe Bill Marr was right in stating that when pot starts killing people the same as Tobacco and Alchol then it will be made legal..
26. 

    Mistress maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    Catseye:
    “Maria may I add to your last post that.. before Dyerbrook points it out.. it was the noise not the fact of your act that was complaint.. same as calling the cops because the radio was too loud…”
    Very true chere, But upon arrival, the police were confronted with a very active BD/SM relationship in full swing.
    According to the legal misconceptions of others, my lover and i would have both been hauled of to Le Bastille for Gross Deviant behaviour. Many of the laws they site are either long since repealed, or simply no longer enforced because broader issues of Civil Liberties and social acceptability have rendered them Virtually unenforcable.

    Also, in clarifying my point on consensual Violence and sports, i did not mention the most obvious example. Boxing. In the ring, the object is to render your opponent unconcious. Maimings and Permanant long term Brain damage have been associated with the sport for decades and deaths in the ring are not unknown And, even in the case of a ring death. Charges are not laid because both indeviduals have fully consented to the violence that is taking place no matter the result.
    So,, What is the only differences?
    they perform their violence in Large venues for Money. I and my lover do what w do in private(Or occasionally with a frind or two) for sexual gratification.
    Looks to me as a case of society condoning the prostitute while Damning the lover. (Our word for the day: Metaphore. Look it up. Lol.)

    Mistress Maria.
27. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 14th, 2004
    

    I replied to this earlier, but it didn’t take. I’m not going to bother again, because it is clear what I meant from my above post.

    coco
28. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Coco I understand what you meant.. but depends on if like Maria said one presses charges and that only shows the legality of it via the court system… yes I should have used boxing as an example of it instead of football.. it makes people alot of money so it is exempt.. you are right they could press charges but I doubt that anyone one convience a jury of this being assault..

    the consenual sex turning into rape.. yes dyer that is one instance but what I was talking more about is the woman trying to trap the man into a relationship.. to blackmail him etc… the I am pregnant statement when she is not type of thing.. was reading an article in the Reader’s digest about this not too long ago and makes me glad I am married..

    now in the football instance one would have to prove the player meant to harm the other one.. because both have consented to playing on the field that day accidents happen.. same I think with BDSM one would have to press charges on the other for the assault then prove in the courts that it was assault.. burden of proof always goes to those pressing charges not the ones being charged… innocent until proven guilty etc… this is the legal aspect and might make some cases Illegal but does it make it wrong to all? obsulivially not.. you have the right to think as you wish and believe as you wish that is what makes us what and who we are.. Nude photos if color are porn if black and white are art… we are appaled by a naked man on the streets yet we flock to see a naked statue of a man and we even take our kids…

    *LOL*

    back to square one…

    Dyer will you admit that we believe, and I mean we as humans , that we believe what we do just because we believe it to be so… there is no right no wrong just what we believe and accept as right and wrong.. in the end the only one opinion matters and that is what we think of ourself… both sides can point out cases to prove or disprove points and all that shows it that it is both wrong in some cases and ok in others.. why must we search for a black and white answer to a grey question?
29. 

    urizenus
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Just saw this from Maria, sorry I didn’t notice earlier (something fubar with my post forwarding dealie):

    >I read the article, as i have read many similar articles and the one thing that jumps out at me is usually the writer has spent no time in-game and all his opinions are based on the few people he has chosen for his interview.
    >

    Yes, Hiawatha Bray spent about half an hour in the game. So far as I know he only talked to me me, JC Soprano, and Dyerbrook. (and EA)
30. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Uri:
    “Yes, Hiawatha Bray spent about half an hour in the game. So far as I know he only talked to me me, JC Soprano, and Dyerbrook. (and EA)
    ”

    Half an Hour?!
    Oh my Excuse me, He is obviously more of an expert on Life in AV than My mere 8 Months could possibly make me. Lol.
    Thank you Uri, you proved my point admirably. If he went in cold, he could barely learn game play in 30 minutes, and Quite Obviously only went to those sites he was directed to that would confirm his prejudices. If Guided,, Then By Whom? I spent half an hour the other day, Just looking over the homes in the sim arts community, and only had time to enter one home (There were so any to choose from). Where did our Illustrious writer go?
    I think now, People can judge how much this article is really worth.
    Narrow of vision, Narrow of scope, Narrow of mind.

    Mistress Maria.
31. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    The state can press charges, even if neither consensual party does.

    coco
32. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Some States yes not all.. then they have to prove it was what they filed charges for…

    As for Assault definition look it up…

    one of them from dictonary.com is..

    2. To attack with moral means, or with a view of producing moral effects; to attack by words, arguments, or unfriendly measures; to assail; as, to assault a reputation or an administration.

    hmm so we in the BDSM life are being assualted by Dyerbrook…
33. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Yes, of course they have to prove it. This is just the way the law is.

    coco
34. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Something was brought up to my toy in another thread. It had no real place there, so i thought i would bring it here for examination if you don’t mind.

    The point made was as Follows:

    “You have seirous issues when you keep referring to yourself as if your talking to another person. lol.

    - RB

    Posted by RB at January 14, 2004 10:44 PM ”

    Many people Misunderstand Slave speak as we call it. (Referring to ones self in the third person) Most people beleive it to be as dehumanizing convention of ours meant to Break the spirit of our Slaves.
    I am afraid they are Mistaken once again.

    In PURE Gorean terms, a slave owns Nothing. Not Money, Not their clothing, Not even their name. They belong totally to their Master. SO, How can a slave say “Mine”? If they do not own themselves,”I” and ‘Me” are misleading. The slave speak is ordered to have the slave recognize that they do not own themselves.
    That is “By the Book”.
    By the Book Isn’t always the reason we do things.
    In real life terms however, this is only symbolic, Third person speech takes on a whole other meaning.
    Firstly, My toy need not speak in that fashion if she does not wish to. It is a Common convention, but not necessarily required. In some cases, a Gor Master will only ask them to do it once in a while, Or not at all.
    Second, It’s purpose is far more beneficial than most would think.
    toy, like many who become subs, or slaves will tell you, she feels an intense need to serve. She wants to be the Best she can be. Selfless, Generous and Giving (Admirable sentiments, Don’t you think?). She takes pride in knowing she pleases me, and knowing that other subs/slaves use her as a role model. Many have a great deal of trouble in serving. Being selfless and giving is hard when one has spent an entire life being taught by our society to be selfish and responsible Only to themselves (A scathing assessment of western culture, but i think, an accurate one.).
    In our early days together, toy , though eager to serve, still had the selfish streak we are all taught to have. We spoke about it one day, and the subject of Gorean slave speak was brought up. I suggested to toy, that if she wished to realize just how Self Centred our thought Processes were, that she try, for a few days to refer to herself only in the slave speak. Having to think about replacing “I”, “Me”, “Mine” in ones own speech patterns brings into Glaring Focus just how much we refer to ourselves. Just how self centred our thought processes are. For once in their lives, they Realize just how many times a day they say “I, I’ I, I, Me, Me, Me, Me.”, and they also realize that they cannot think of others, when their thoughts are Crammed with consideration only for themselves (This is true whether one aspires to be a slave, or simply wishes to be the best possible person they can be.).
    The point was made with toy after only a day or so of speaking in third person, but she came to like the quality of the speech, and chose to continue with it (yes,, she Chose it.).
    Looking in a Mirror, Trying to bring ones own personality faults into sharp focus, then working to fix them is Never an easy thing to do. I have done this very thing myself, and other exercises to make myself more concious of how others perceive me. I have given my toy these same exercises to do, Not to break her down, but to build her up. Any of you now, conversing with my toy, would in very short order realize just how NOT broken down she is.
    Remember, my toy spends many hours a day in the real world. she has taken the tools i have given her, and encorporated them into her every day life, and finds that they make her much happier, both with herself, and the people she deals with.

    I say to people that they need to look beyond the surface of anything they see, At first glance, my toy IS a slave, In the Classic sense, but Look beyond the surface, you see a happy, Intelligent, Strong willed woman. A woman with Pride, Confidence, and a truely generous nature. What i have taught my toy has had a part in bringing these fine traits into the foreground. You might not understand the form the lesson takes, but you cannot argue with the results.

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
35. 

    Kelli
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    Ah, this would be an entertaining discussion were it not for the numerous misunderstandings and misconstruings stemming from Dyer’s posts. Obviously he has a very poor grasp on BDSM, which is a rather critical shortcoming in a self-appointed critic such as he.

    First, we need to clear up some legal misunderstandings. Criminal assault, criminal battery, criminal kidnapping, etc., all require the element of “lack of consent” in order to be criminal acts. Criminal law is such that every element of a crime must be proven in order for the crime to have taken place. An assault is defined as a “non-consensual touching” … probably broader than many would believe … if someone touches you on your arm without your implied or express consent it’s technically an assault … but the flip-side is also true, namely that if there is implied consent, and certainly if there is express consent, there is sinmply *no* criminal assault. The same holds true for battery and for kidnapping, which is restraining someone against their *will*. Now obviously there are some outer limits on this — one must be of sufficient mind to be able to exercise one’s will, or to give one’s consent, in a legally valid way — children, minors, mentally hadicapped persons, and those who may have been subjected to mind-control regimes would fall under possible situations where the legal consent or giving of will might not be supportable. But certainly for the case of two consenting adults, where both parties validly and willingly give their consent to participate in BDSM-type activities, there is no crime. As an aside, this is also why professional domination services are not illegal — there is clearly consent, there is no sex taking place and the rest of what happens is consensual.

    Second, I think that Dyer’s characterization of what makes BDSMers tick is overbroad and innacurate. It is just as difficult to generalize about BDSMers as it is for any other group. It’s a diverse group of folks who share a common interest. In my experience with it, it is not inherently pedophilic — certainly no more inherently pedophilic than “vanilla” hetero- or homo-sexual oriented activity. Therefore this is a red-herring argument against BDSM, in my opinion. In my experience, many of the folks I know who are “lifestyle” BDSMers — or even many “professional” BDSMers — are, in fact, folks for whom the “lifestyle”, if you want to put it that way, is an expression of their personality. They aren’t violent people. BDSM isn’t about violence. It is about submission and power exchange. The acts that take place are, in part, tests of and, in part, demonstrations of that submission. It is a relationship based properly on extreme trust between the participants, and the person who really has the power is not the Dom/me but the sub/be, because it is the latter who, through his/her free will and choice, permits the power exchange relationship to take place. Far from slavery, it is consensual power exchange.

    I think that Dyer’s posts primarily bespeak a truly morbid intolerance for BDSM in any context — not just TSO. I think that he finds it repulsive, wrong, etc., and is intolerant of it and is using TSO as a means to vent this intolerance.
36. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    Kelli:
    Thank you chere, for statements put most clearly and sucsinctly.

    Post again if something peakes your interest, I am anxious to hear more of your observations.

    Mistress Maria.
37. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 18th, 2004
    

    I don’t care enough about BDSM to have a “morbid intolerance” of it. Rather, for me, it is worth debating against as the extreme version of what the so-called multi-cultis have produced in our society — minds so open that their brains fall out, minds so open that they close.

    I don’t know if this Hiawatha ever was in the game or not, he said he played a little in Beta. I talked to him on email. And I know for a fact that he talked to more Sims than Uri listed there. I think he had enough of a sampling.
38. 

    dra'ma
    

    Jan 18th, 2004
    

    Greetings A/all;
    I find all this very interesting and somewhat funny… **thinking he is a poor stand up comedian**.

    Dyerbrook you find O/our lifestyle to be in your words repulsive and you wish to fight against it, I wonder what or who you are in rl.. Are you a father, a husband, a child, a friend, a business man, a boss or employee? If you are any of these Dyer I would wonder have you disciplined a child, scolded a wife, fired an employee or have you ever been disciplined or been fired for something which you did wrong? Not all in O/our lifestyle receive beatings or whippings. There are some who choose not to, as irl some parents chose to spank a child while others choose to perhaps take away something. A wife may get in trouble for spending too much on a ‘pretty sweater’ or even be spanked all in the name of sex play.. No doubt dyer if you have yet to spank or be spanked in the name of sex you have missed the boat.

    Then you go on to mention a lot owner who states she would never call a man Master, and if things got out of hand then she would boot them.. I do wonder dyer have you been to many lots?
    I would say the talk at most lots involve those running around naked.. Yes naked dyer.. Have you ever been naked? Have you listened to many on vanilla lots.. Talking about sex? Not only on sex lots do they do this dyer, but on skill lots and they are vanilla. I was gambling the other day dyer, and I do think that most children are not permitted to gamble at least here in the good ol USA, but the language and subject matter were completely inappropriate for anyone yet alone for a child. I have a 16 yr old daughter I would not allow to play TSO, and not because of the BDSM homes for I think she would learn about an age old custom there, I would love for her to hear the bad language there.. using bad words such as Sir, Ma’am, thank you, may I, and please. I would not allow her to play simply because of the love beds, love tubs, and all the vanilla perverts out there. Those that are not smart enough to take some chat into private, and look for young children to prey on. Those in the lifestyle are cautious of the young, for believe it or not, whoo hoo Ripley where are you, W/we are not looking to recruit. **wonders why W/we would want to, for the vanillas come to U/us asking of the lifestyle**

    This repulsive lifestyle as you put it dyer, includes a head of the household, I do think that in the bible there is a head of the household, the husband, he is in charge, of his family. He makes the final decision and under him is his family. W/we have a head of the household, a Dom/me, one who protects loves and provides for his/her family. One who punishes when things are not done in the manner that he/she has ordered. One who expects the family to behave in public be it vanilla or BDSM, and asks that if their family members do something they be told.. If my child acts up at school do I hear of it? Yes I do. If she was to get a ticket, a copy would be mailed to my home. Then I can decide as a parent to punish or not. No different than O/our lifestyle.

    My Master did not force me to be with Him or did not force me to be a slave for that is who and what I am. Irl my husband/Dom did not force me to be His wife his submissive, I also was allowed to decide for myself .. And I would do it again, not because im sick, but because that is who I am.. I also am the mother of 3 normal healthy teens, a RN, OMG.. I do hope im not recruiting others… I have been a girl scout leader, boy scout leader, Sunday school teacher, on both the PTA and PTO as president/vice president, organizer for children’s group such as VBS, and fairs. I am a normal citizen and no markings of my lifestyle, no branding on my forehead, but I do wear the customary mark of a cult, a wedding ring on my left ring finger… ~~giggles~~

    OMG I think I mentioned many cults above, they have rules and leaders and they recruit;

    Boy scouts, Girl scouts, PTO, PTA, VBS, Churches, don’t forget the armed forces..ARMY, NAVY, MARINES, AIR FORCE, did you know dyer they say please and thank you too? Oh and yes dyer they use words such as Sir, Ma’am and have many many rules to follow, as well as they take an oath, I think there is some violence too there dyer.. But a narrow minded bigot might not ever join.. Not that this girl is calling you anything dyer.. ~~grins~~ they cant leave dyer, they have to ask permission to green.. Too.. And they were recruited, they were their title in honor as I do mine.. Have you dyer been to a boy scout meeting? They use special hand signals, they cant run amuck…. hehehehe , and I bet you may not always understand their world…

    Ohhhh dyer how boring is your TSO world that you cant find time to pretend??? if O/our lifestyle bothers you dyer.. Here are a few more to look into .. Did you know there are vampires dyer in good ol AV?? Yes dyer there is.. And guess what .. They role play.. One bites you on the neck.. Oooops violence… and after sucking your blood.. Marking and branding.. You get to mark others.. recruitment.. They even have their own herald.. And welcome all.. Oops I lied not all, they do not .. As W/we do not want children… ~~smiles and dances~~ why is this dyer?? Because W/we are responsible adults… speaking of responsible adults dyer.. Parents.. Yes parents should monitor what and where their children go in here.. TSO that is.. And do you know that if you place on your sim a parent control.. It doesn’t allow you to see the names of the sims or the houses.. One cant even talk to us.. And has a big ol red circle with a line through it.. Ohhh silly me.. **bites lip** **wonders if that is too violent..** I did forget you are a beta player.. Since the end of July 2002… **bows to the great beta Master** for I am also one.. But I guess my time is less important.. Aug 1, 2002…. Oops I bowed.. Does that make you a Dom… ??? ~~smiles innocently~~

    You dyer could also look into the mafia.. Yes mafia dyer.. They are there and they recruit too.. They OMG.. Dyer they even red balloon.. Others.. Something this girl has NEVER done.. **thinking im not so violent after all** they have one in charge of the entire family.. They go out of their way to cause havoc dyer.. With other families.. They have many many many in their families including many families.. All under one leader.. OMG it’s a cult.. ~~ smiles ~~

    you dyer wonder where W/we all came from … from cites dyer.. Not because W/we were run out.. **shakes head** but because W/we can.. ~~giggling and dancing about the room~~

    This community is not bent on taking over as you put it.. Maxis has set up the thing such as neighborhoods.. Yes dyer did you know that?? So we can form neighborhoods.. Have you checked city view?? **hand over mouth.. Eyes wide..** OMG dyer have you not seen that?? And you a beta Master… I would write maxis about that dyer if I were you.. **thinking .. Thank God im not..**

    dyer I do not advertise.. It is a part of me.. Such as a drives license has my name on it.. My address and such.. But you don’t have to look at it.. And this dom who tried as you say.. **rolls eyes** to keep getting a girl to be a sub… ummmm **thinking** just maybe … maybe.. He wasn’t a Dom.. But a pervert.. Oh yes they need their own too… and they do prey on the young.. And the stupid.. ** thinking .. what category is dyer in** but dyer you seem smart enough to figure all this out.. And maybe harass others .. Besides BDSM and Goreans…

    Well I didn’t mean to write forever.. I do enjoy learning and reading .. So I will continue to read.. Continue to learn.. And continue the lifestyle.. Which I love.. And is a part of my natural submissive self.. **giggling and wonders what my rl husband/Dom would think** Oh yes one more thing dyer.. You did say that we … yes we as in the subs/slaves are weak …. OMG.. ***shakes head*** do you realize how strong one must be to allow another to dominate them?? To not throw a fit, **ok ok sometimes I do** and tell them off?? **Ok ok I do that too** but we are strong minded.. Creative and smart.. ~~smiling.. batting eyes~~ it is just part of our being.. Just as your bigotry, and narrow mindedness is a part of yours….

    this girl is done now.. Much running amuck to be done….. ~~giggles and runs from the room~~
39. 

    dra'ma
    

    Jan 18th, 2004
    

    one more thing.. just a note.. on your friendship web.. there is one who you dyer say you grovel and worship.. **wonders… maybe you dyer are a closet sub…***

    amuck amuck amuck….
40. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 19th, 2004
    

    Dyer, don’t expect us to take your word on anything, not after the claims you made about support on that forum thread and it turned out that only 2 out of 17 responders were supportive of you, and not after your claim to have never tagged anyone. You have blown your credibility. Your word is worth nothing here.

    You have even lied about your gender. It blew one theory of mine out the window. I thought you might have been protesting too much, thought you may have secretly desired to feel my boot at your throat. If so sorry hon, I don’t do women.
41. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 19th, 2004
    

    My Lady,
    I do women chere,,, But i have Better taste than that.

    Mistress Maria.
42. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 20th, 2004
    

    Lady Julianna, I have not lied about my gender. I don’t know where you got that idea. But in any event, my gender or age or location or preferences are really immaterial to this debate. It doesn’t matter if I’ve visited a lot of lots or not, have experienced BDSM in real life or not. I have a philosophical opinion, which is that violence and enslavement are repulsive, they are not the greater good of society, and that while we may tolerate them in some kind of restricted place, or in moderation, we ought not to tolerate them roaming through the game with children in it, and that given the way you all have comported yourself in this discussion, your notions of screening out children from your lots, and your notions of consent are ENTIRELY untrustworthy.

    It hardly matters if only 2 out of 17 supported a position of mine, as this is hardly a scientific poll.

    I also maintain a policy of never tagging anyone, I’ve only tagged one fellow who isn’t even in the game anymore because I thought he was a specially-directed spoof Sim. I have shared Sims with other players who have a different tagging policy. And since tagging is a legitimate activity in the game, your constant harping on this subject in unseemly.

    Your notion that feeling your boot on my neck would be something enjoyable is yet another example of how consent really means nothing to you BDSMers, despite all your blather about consent, and also graphic proof of how you wield violent threats and violent image as a shaming tool. You are willing to apply the boot to anyone, indiscriminately, or suspect anyone, even children, or secretly “wishing” such a thing. For shame!
43. 

    toy
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    to quote Dyerbrook….. “I have a philosophical opinion, which is that violence and enslavement are repulsive, they are not the greater good of society, and that while we may tolerate them in some kind of restricted place, or in moderation, we ought not to tolerate them roaming through the game with children in it, and that given the way you all have comported yourself in this discussion, your notions of screening out children from your lots, and your notions of consent are ENTIRELY untrustworthy.”

    the key word in this whole rant is “OPINION”…

    no one has ever denied you your opinion but attacking others because of ones ‘opinion’ is both senseless and narrowminded….. toy can accept your opinion nd does… but toy will treat it as such… one persons ‘opinion’.

    quoting again…. “I have not lied about my gender. I don’t know where you got that idea.”

    hmmmm… one could easily assume one is a male if one plays a male in TSO.. toy would also [point out to you that at no time until now have you mentioned your gender… who can know the reasoning behind that, toy surely cant.

    believe what you will Dyerbrook it is no more than your opinion and matters little to those you seem so willing to attack

    falara kajira toy
44. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    Dyer:

    “It hardly matters if only 2 out of 17 supported a position of mine, as this is hardly a scientific poll.”

    Correct me if i am mistaken chere, Wasn’t it YOU who originally presented this particular point in Support of your Position?
    AND, i Might add, Saw fit to LIE, and Poorly so at that, as to it’s content?

    If we are talking about ones trustworthyness, chere, as you seem to wish to do, then you have only succeeded in Impeaching yourself as any Reliable judge of Honesty. The Concept seems completely alien to you.

    Touche’
    Game, Set and Match.
    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
45. 

    toy
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    ~sighs while noticing the posts stray far from what the interview was about~

    A Gorean Owner/slave relationship is by definition a type of D/s relationship,
    given that it is founded upon ideas of dominance and submission.
    Indeed, a Gorean Owner/slave relationship differs from a TPE relationship only in two aspects:
    the use of rituals and language from the novels,
    and the underlying foundation upon natural order as opposed to simple personal preference.
    However, “Gor” as a whole, as a concept, spans far more than the Owner/slave relationship.
    As many other able writers have pointed out, Gor the philosophy is not about slavery per se;
    slavery is simply one of many specific practices deriving from that much broader set of ideas.
    Allow toy to present an analogue:
    “Self-sufficiency” can be a philosophy, a way of thinking and feeling about how to live one’s life.
    There are many who seek to reduce their dependence on their fellow man to lesser or greater extents,
    in many different ways. “Gardening” is a specific practice,
    one which devolves naturally from a philosophy of self-sufficiency,
    but which is also practiced by many who do not subscribe to those ideas, that way of life.
    Note also that there is no requirement that one garden in order to be self-sufficient;
    one can follow the philosophy without engaging in that specific practice, and vice versa.
    To speak of the self-sufficiency movement as a “subset” of gardeners is self-evidently ludicrous to the extreme,
    and anyone who does so is obviously missing the broader aspects of the philosophy completely.
    So, too, with Gor and BDSM. Gor describes a set of ideas.
    Those who subscribe to those ideas may be more likely to engage in some of the practices known collectively
    as BDSM, but there will be many who live by the philosophy without ever engaging in that practice,
    and many who engage in that practice without any wish to explore the philosophies,
    or indeed engage in practices which are completely counter to the ideas of the philosophy.
    BDSM is *what* you do, if that is what you want to do.
    Gor is *why* you do *whatever* you do, whether that involves BDSM or not.

    falara kajira toy
46. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    “quoting again…. “I have not lied about my gender. I don’t know where you got that idea.”

    hmmmm… one could easily assume one is a male if one plays a male in TSO…”

    Well, this is a correct assumption. And as already explained, the person mentioned in the news article is my mother, not me. We’ve discussed the game a good deal and share many, but not all opinions. I also spoke to some of the reporters but I didn’t want to put my RL name on the record, given the outspoken positions I’ve taken. And I imagine it is no accident that soon after those articles appeared, my mother’s e-mail was filled with all kinds of viruses, repeatedly. Let’s hope it was related to something else she was writing about, and not the Sims.

    And for all of those who have sources and proof and screenshots etc etc that I am someone else, well, be at peace. Either you are making it up (Storm?) Or…You’ve been pranked. It happens. Internet histrionics is SO easy to do. It is the Sims. Be. Somebody. Else. LOL.

    And for all those that want to launch into spasms about a mama’s boy, etc. etc. well, get a life. I come from a country where people still respect their mothers and have moved to a country where people are forced to live with their mothers sometimes…
47. 

    toy
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    ~hands Dyerbrook a shovel to help her/he dig a deeper hole to try to crawl out of ~
48. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    Dyer, read more carefully and pay more attention boy. Maria is correct, you cited that thread as supporting your position, and a scientific count proved that to be a gross misrepresentation on your part, only 2 out of 17 supporting your position.

    I “harp on” about your tagging me because you continue to lie and say you have never tagged anyone. You admitted already that it was you as Lord Cheetah who tagged me that night and this is just a stupid thing for you to lie about now.

    You are not female? Then perhaps my first theory was correct. I did not say that I wanted to put my boot at your throat. I said that I think you secretly desire my boot at your throat. I have seen many submissive provoke a Dom/me deliberately to get that kind of response.

    Now boy, pay attention, focus on the meaning of the words you are reading, do not twist them like a neurotic attention seeker, and stop lying. You want Dom/me direction? There it is boy. Suck it up.
49. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    For Pete’s sake Dyer, if you are a man, act like one. With your pathetic lies and misrepresentations you remind me of a school yard bully who picks on a smaller kid, and then when the smaller kid gets in a good punch runs to the teacher crying… “Little Sally hit me. It was all her fault.”

    Be a man, suck it up and accept responsibility for what you have said and what you have done and stop trying to whine and snivel your way out of it.

    Or, if you prefer, be someone’s boy. But find another Domme, you are not up to my standards.
50. 

    dyerbrook
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    Once again, let the record show that these people try to impose their way of life on people who do NOT repeat DO NOT consent to it. Be warned. Saying you think I “secretly” desire the boot of a domme is just the kind of imputing of consent that I am talking about, duh. I have no such secret or not secret desire, believe me. And your positing of this belief is additional proof of what I mean — you are always ready to impugn that the world really shares your ideology. It does not. In no way. I have to break that news to you.

    And once again, I cited the discussion as an example of support for my point of view, and indeed, there is support for my point of view, and if there are only 2 out of 17, that’s still support, at least from two people, and nothing more than I claimed, and once again, it isn’t scientific. My, you are dense! I never claimed to have a MAJORITY. I claimed to have SUPPORT. Which I have.

    All your yammering is yet again indication of your propensity for vile twisting of every post made in criticism of your philosophy. Anyone outside your cult who reads these words “gets it”. Trust me, they’ve contacted me in the game, and they see in spades how you pervert language and how you constantly play at “gotcha”.

    Rather than dig myself any hole, I am continuing to drive a wedge between your view of yourself, and the consensus you think you have in Alphaville, and the reality of people’s views. They see what you are doing — you are ample manifestation of it. “Don’t blame the mirror if you have a crooked face.”

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