The Alphaville Herald

241 Responses to “Interview with Selene Moon on Wicca and Witchcraft in Alphaville”

1. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   Calso, thanks for understanding the point of this exercise. The signal-to-noise ratio on this blog is very disproportionate, because there are a lot of competing groups and communities in desperate need of some kind of communication device that the game itself doesn’t give them to discuss the meta-game issues that are so out of whack that they intrude on the game, I guess, for which the company is to blame, but also human nature.

   I think Urizenus understands what was done and we will probably see better reporting coming out of AVH now, or at least, a more skeptical readership that will become better bloggers.

   Stella, you’re reiterating Urizenus’ arguments about the definition of hoaxes, without taking into account my rebuttal of that remark by pointing out that the most successful hoaxes have a degree of truth in them. For example, those e-mail virus hoaxes that ask you to delete some non-essential file in the Windows set-up, which are based on triggering your queued responses for virus deletion, on the one hand, and your desire to do a good deed and spread the word about how others can delete the bad file, which is the basis for the success of that particular hoax. With Selene Moon, we have an audience primed to be watching for stories of poor abused teenagers in the game, and an editor looking for such stories for the purpose of exposing the sensational life of TSO to the public. But to succeed, and get some of the other players to blog to it, we had to have some credible information in it about wiccan. Uri hasn’t been able to counter the argument about hoaxes containing truth (there are some truths about wiccan in Selene’s interview, but for the real story, you had better go to the real wiccans). And so you haven’t, Stella, and just cheerleading for Urizenus against me isn’t enough of an argument.

   Cocoanut, thanks for the comment but I don’t need a cheerleader. I probably have lied to you in a year, sheesh. For example, I don’t think I really deleted a St. Bernard because it was ugly before I read how to determine a St. Bernard breed. That was just a tall tale. I did delete an ugly dog. But I can’t be sure it was a St. Bernard. And so on. This is a game of tall tales and exaggerations, and you should be less credible.

   I won’t insult any one’s intelligence by reminding them that this is just a game. But I will say that I view AVH as an *extension* of the game, although fulfilling a RL human hunger for news about the human story which they have inevitably recreated in their fake simulated world. I do not full it as wholly something “in real life” separate from the game — again, it is an extension. For “real life,” I go there, to it, not to blogs with people who are playing various exaggerated characters and versions of their avatars, and feel, say, because they have made a lifestyle avatar like a BDSM or wiccan adherent in this game — which might be only part of their identity IRL — that they must fight to the death with every unscrupulous method in the book to attack anyone who questions that lifestyle. It seems to me that the kinds of exaggerated and malicious methods that people use in a blog about a game are not the kind of discourse that they would permit of themseves IRL f2f.
2. 

   Catseye
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   (there are some truths about wiccan in Selene’s interview, but for the real story, you had better go to the real wiccans).

   OMG Dyerbrook finally said something I agree with.. yes never accept one view always seek out more to learn the turth about anything… thing is Selene’s interview as all that I have seen here are posted not as gospel but are posted to pique the interest in certain topics to show that there are those to ask to explore the different topics.. to learn

   in closing I am editing Dyerbrooks above..statement

   (there are some truths about BDSM in Dyerbrook’s posts, but for the real story, you had better go to the real BDSM praticinors).
3. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   Uri, you need to spend less time on linguistics, and more time on plain meaning.

   Re: So where is the hoax part? That the typist for the 15 year old presenting avatar is the same as the typist for Dyerbrook? That’s it? That’s the hoax?

   In order to make a fake Sim that you would indeed interview, and would then even publish, we had to have a Sim that would be interesting to you, and credible. You’d already *done* clueless kids like Aurora. A 15-year-old interested in wiccan isn’t a story, but one that has already made balloons with Piper and Old Hippie looks to be a little more of a serious young wiccan. Knowing the propensity you have not only to say, look at women’s breasts when you meet them IRL, as Stella has implied, but your propensity to look at players’ balloons when you meet them (as we all do), we made sure that Selene had some pretty impressive balloons in her repetoire, and certainly none that could trace her to our group (many a spoof Sim in TSO has faltered on this failure of people to clean up their balloon connections!, especially going in 2-3 deep!) We just got awful lucky in that department, that it only took a few days to get those balloons — it might have taken weeks.

   Piper and Old Hippie accepted Selene as a young wiccan girl, but I don’t know if they ever asked how old she was (I’d have to ask the other drivers of Selene to see if they ever got that question). They just took her at face value, as indeed, we take them at face value, except that they both have RL websites they will give you in the game to bring you in further to their lifestyles.

   They may be “true” characters in TSO, but actually, there is some mystery about the Old Hippie character, as we’ve seen from encounters with him in the past under various Sims, that he appears to be a Sim with different owners. Many individual people have multiple Sims, but Old Hippie led us to believe he was a single Sim with multiple humans LOL. He used to have a lot that was called some sort of old fishing hole, and then he changed to a pagan lot, keeping the same name. He had a different human running him, as he noted on his profile. Maybe it’s all the same human, playing a higher meta-game. That’s fine. Let him/them do their thing. But they didn’t really inquire too deeply into Selene, and why should they? Asking A/S/L to people in TSO is considered poor netiquette, epecially for heavy role-players.

   The hoax is that instead of a 15-year-old girl wanting to learn how to be a witch who looks so fetching in her scanty leather attire you get Dyerbrook with three-day old stubble and a duck-hunting coat LOL. But there is an undertow to the hoax that you still aren’t really focusing on. The point is as I keep trying to explain, is that this is one of those Policy Maker Issues. A teenage girl! Only 15! Drawn into the dark side of witching in TSO! By adults! Don’t you see all the Bible Belt whistles going off here? The point is to show yet another example of a teenager who is led into an adult-sponsored lifestyle and indeed encouraged, without her parent’s knowledge. Stupid Mom just makes her set the table, she never looks at what is on her computer screen. Stupid Mom, who keeps her away from her wiccan aunt and cousin! You told her to turn the forks upside down “to play with their minds”. Ah, an adult in the game, conspiring with the teens, to “mess with the minds” of the other adults in that teen’s life! In your case, you proposed only turning the forks over. Others along the way proposed that she join them in some kind of disturbing sub-culture, or tell whether she had on panties. Do you get it? It’s a story about SUPPOSED adult-teen interaction in the game. Of course Selene turned out to have boxers, and not panties, and so on SO NO HARM WAS DONE. To Selene. But…to others like her who are really 15?

   You seem to be so obsessively focused on the issue of the truth of wiccan in the game, some of which was contained in Selene’s naive mispelled ramblings, and so eager to massage the egos of all your witch friends in the game, that you are overlooking the higher issues in the game exemplified by the Selene phenom. You are a lazy journalist. You never called Piper and asked if Selene was anything more than a balloon friend, or had the slightest qualms about whether it was appropriate for Piper to bring Selene into tutelage. You never called Old Hippie and asked if Selene had really been in his circle, given that she was a double balloon friend. The fact is, Selene *was never in any circle*. Anything she said about circles herself *was not credible*. Maybe some of it was, maybe some of it was *hearsay* but it was not eye-witness testimony. Do you get it?

   One of the reasons you are not getting this problem is that you as an typist, as a person, really don’t see anything at all wrong with teenagers in the game getting involved in wiccan. Or BDSM for that matter. It’s only when they tell you they’ve beaten their siblings, or that they are cyber prostitutes selling their simoleons on ebay to get dollars, that you begin to say, hey, this is an outrage. I better write to Maxis about this! And you don’t seem to understand how silly you, as a public persona, look doing that. You were willing to believe that a boy had hospitalized his sibling, without any proof or genuine out-of-game communication. You were willing to believe that 17-year-old boy, who we might or not actually get a report on in the Detroi Press tomorrow (we may only get his putative mom) was a cyberprostitute, without any really credible first-person eye-witness from anyone other than himself. This bothered you. But BDSM, satanism, witchcraft — none of that bothers you. That can stand. That’s OK. Those are your friends. Why, you made a satanist lot yourself. And you have completely lost touch with the question of appearances, how that makes you look to people who have a different set of morals than you, and who find all of it disturbing, parents who might be willing to tolerate all those adult sub-cultures IRL, but who don’t want their teenage kids to get into them unsupervised. Those people actually far outnumber you, in both the media and the society at large, and that is why you are angry at them, and why you let a handful of cranks and autocratic ideologues lambast me here, without any intervention, because you side with them in a hedonistic cry for tolerance of “anything goes”.

   It doesn’t matter what your personal or in-game tastes are for fantasy. But if you set yourself up not as an avatar, but an arbiter of public morality, and “where the game company shouldn’t stand” and as a victim of game company censorship and selective prosecution, you’re going to have to expect a lot more static. Satanism, wiccan, BDSM are all ok, even if the adults interact with teens in them, knowingly or unknowingly. Sibling beating and cyber prostitution are not OK, even if the tale is not cedible or if the prostitution is basically obscene letters typed by someone almost 18. Well, why should we take a satanist’s word for it?

   You still don’t seem to understand that by printing Selene’s story — a story that YOU YOURSELF says contains a greater truth about AVH, like all your stories, that you are taking a position with no difference in kind to the supporters of the problematic “I, Rigoberta” or those who supported keeping Jason Blair on because he was black. You are confessing that you find the seamy side good tabloid material, but basically OK, and merely take a neutral approach to it, as an object of study to help you publish your book. Some of us don’t find it OK. You made absolutely no effort to frame it. In fact, you bragged to Selene that you were big friends with witches in the game, although you don’t seem to have become a big friend of the biggest witch, Piper.

   I don’t care about witches, Uri. In playing this game, I too, have acquired “best friends in the game” who happen to practice wiccan. Our religious differences are obviously not the basis for our friendship, but other things bring us together, and that’s one of the joys of the game.

   What I do care about is your credulity, and your siding with your interviewees. That is not what I expect in a newspaper editor performing a public service. You love them so much, you want to be admired by them so much, that you have let them walk all over you, and have made yourself a victim of hoaxes. I don’t know what the “Pet Island” hoax is — is that your story about the game’s only island, that no one seems to be able to find in the game? Well, it was based on people’s idea that there are super valuable properties and pets that are also valued. Selene’s hoax was based on the facts of wiccans in the game. It’s still a hoax. You still bought it hook, line, and sinker. The bait was the truth of wiccan. The hook and line was the beautiful young leather-clad Selene. The sinker was that she was yet another teenager lured into an adult lifestyle by this game. Admit it, Uri, you’ve been Dyerbrooked.
4. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   Re: “(there are some truths about BDSM in Dyerbrook’s posts, but for the real story, you had better go to the real BDSM praticinors).”

   Why, thank you for admitting that there are truths about BDSM in my story. But I believe in freely seeking after the truth. That is why I would urge anyone with a truly open mind, not the fake permissive, hedonistic but closed mind of the BDSM world, to examine the horrors of this world freely. It will make their hair curl. I fear not any kind of free intellectual inquiry — not to be mistaken for freely becoming a recruit and a cheerleader for a violent lifestyle.

   Because BDSM *is* a closed society, and especiallly the Gorean version modeled after something like Soviet communism or any closed system, forbidding free communication and criticism, you cannot get the *only* truth about BDSM from BDSM practitioners themselves — or at least most of them (I did find one that was reflective enough to understand that he ought to keep to his own lot and not spread out and seem to recruit kids on the generic skill lots). Those who practice wiccan, however, are diverse enough and open enough that they don’t install all kinds of rigid rules for accepting intellectual inquiry about their lifestyle. They are simply more laid back, maybe because they smoke more dope or something, who knows. They don’t demand that you have an “open mind” (code word for “accept our indoctrination or else”) or “mind your manners” (code word for “accept at least temporarily are dom’s regulations) when you come to their lots. Any one can come in and check them out and strike up a conversation without a lot of hoopla, reading signs, curtsying, and making sure to wait before the Master has eaten before they sit down, etc.

   If Catseye wants to try to gleefully and childishly manipulate my words about free intellectual inquiry about wiccan, and the need for first-hand investigation, equally applicable to BDSM, as somehow attempting to catch me in an admission that ONLY BDSMers have the *real truth* about themselves because all others are bigots, well, you’ll have to try again. No sale.

   That is, you can go look at it freely and see the truth that BDSM as it appears in TSO for the most part is a closed, rigid, heavily orthodox and ideological society, and draw your own conclusion as to whether it is a benign fantasy better left in peace, a sub-culture disturbing if teens are drawn to it but basically something to allow, or a cult — I believe it is the latter, but as you can see, even my own friends beg to differ because they are attempting a free intellectual inquiry (except when they are banned from these lots).

   Perhaps this is the right time to acknowledge that one of my many Sims actually attended Lord Cougar’s indoctrination sessions for a time, but only got through about points 1-10 on the 1-42 scale before running and screaming from total boredom mixed with horror? I have seen BDSM, believe me. If BDSM believes that the only visits I have made to their lots was as Dyerbrook the motel owner, or as sometimes driving Lord Cougar, they are bitterly mistaken. But I’ve seen enough. : )
5. 

   urizenus
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   You know D, you would find it easier to get your points across if you were a little more brief.

   Are you saying that witchcraft in the game is widespread or not? Are you saying it is a problem or not? Are you saying it is newsworthy or not? I honestly can’t tell what you think.

   And as for your criticism of me and the AVH, here’s a novel idea: START YOUR *OWN* NEWSPAPER and *show* us how it should be done!

   It isn’t hard and it costs nothing since you already have a website. Start a newspaper! I’ll even link to it!
6. 

   Catseye
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   Oh Dyerbrook no I am not trying to say anything about BDSMers having the only truth on the subject.. but those who live it know it those who dont .. haven’t the whole truth.. you have pulled a hoax.. proved a point yes.. proved a point that you are pulling another hoax stating what you are about anything else you debate..

   Your credibility is shot (as if it wasnt before this) and you really didn’t care how many innocents were harmed by your hoax did you? you made a mockery of Wicca with your hoax.. you casted shadows on a different religion that you think is evil for underaged .. again you are using your slanted views of something to prove your self rightesnous..

   You Dyerbrook are the boy who called wolf now.. you have not discredited Uri but yourself and what really bothers me is you do not have the consquience to see that what you did was wrong..

   you have had offers to come visit those in the community and chat.. you have declined… you think everyone is out to tag you .. paranoia personified for most of us do not care about you to waste the effort of clicking the mouse..

   You are a fraud Dyerbrook.. hurting others to make yourself look good in your eyes.. trying to destroy a group of people simply because you think they are evil hmm Hitler like actions yet another defination of Dyerism..

   Question Mr Morality Savior.. if you were sent back to 1939 would you try to assassinate Hitler?
7. 

   Piper Halliwell
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   Well I wish I had known I was such a topic of interest..and I should have known because a reporter should have contacted me for my comments after Selene’s interview. I give you the following information:

   1. I do not live in Chicago
   2. I do not write books
   3. I am a Wiccan..there is no dark side to Wicca…if you are in a “dark mode”, you are not a Wiccan. And I defy anyone to say anything other than that about myself or any true Wiccan

   4.Selene approached me to be taught and I put her off. Why? Because she wanted to know SPELLS. There are no “spells” like you see in the movies. The words, candles etc are used by us as a focus..similar to candles and prayers in any other religion

   5. yes I pay for balloons…why? because people need money or think they need money…and where do they go? The go to Free Money for Newbies..this way, I give them money and they feel they earned it. Am I trying to become another Mia..humm..gee I must be awful at it. The number 1 sim is waaaay ahead of me.

   6. I myself am of the Wiccan bent that believes in God…I just worship Him in the aspect of both his male and female sides..you will find a lot of Wiccans are similar in belief..am I Pagan? No not in the sense most people use. Am I a witch? Yes. Do I use a broom? Yes..for sweeping. I and all the true Wiccans I have met in TSO are gentle and kind people.

   7. as a final word, please mr editor…I am a journalist in RL..never would I have printed that article without contacting myself and OH. In my opinion, there is wrong on both sides.

   Oh and “Selene” no dear I don’t want a refund. You felt you needed the money..so be it.

   Blessed Be.
8. 

   Piper Halliwell
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   BTW..how did we go from Selene approaching me to learn about Wicca or being a witch to whether or not the girl wore underwear??

   Maybe I missed something along the way …alot of reading above..did someone proposing to be a witch approach this “child” in this way? No true witch would… Harm No One…we believe in karma. What we do comes back on us trifold. This is the Rede. We live by this.

   I found Selene annoying but anyone eager to cast spells and do nasty things in its name annoys me. Though I did see some of the info from my website spouted so at least some truth was leaked whether he wanted to or not. If you wish to keep beating (no pun intended) the dead horse on bondage etc, thats your option…I advise all my brothers and sisters to absent yourselves from this. If this web site wishes to know true Wicca and witches, they will contact us.

   The rest of this is inane. Wiccans believe in free will when it harms no one. Thus leave our children alone…and I agree…an online game is not the place for many things.
9. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 25th, 2004
   

   Hey, wait a minute! Another *credible* source told us you were in Chicago. We shouldn’t have believed that. Oh, well. Your website says you are a RL witch. Perhaps we were mistaken about the books, I don’t know where that come from, to be honest, it was probably just made up along with the rest of made-up stuff Selene spouted. But you do write essays on a RL website and in RL newspapers about wiccan, do you not? So they are publications, not books — we were off, but not completely.

   And Selene never, never, asked you to teach her spells. That is totally misrepresented. That hurts! You ASSUMED that she was one of those opportunistic newbies perhaps. But she was a genuine fake witch, truly in need of training, not an opportunistic newbie! What you DID teach her was some methods for meditation, remember? That was it. She neither asked for, nor was given, any spells, or even reprimands about spells, implying that she might ask for them or want them. Perhaps you are remembring one of the other numerous young clueless newbies that come to your door? You asked her if she thought she was clairvoyant, and she said yes, and then you let her in your house.

   Well, if you don’t want a refund, we understand, but we will try to use the money for something that would be for a good cause, in keeping with your beliefs…

   Paying for balloons isn’t wrong. But once you have all the interactions, just what is the motivation to keep collecting dozens if not hundreds of them, like Mia, even if not in the same category as Mia, if not to get on the most popular Sims list, where you are in the top 10 if I’m not mistaken?
10. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    Once again, this isn’t the case: “I found Selene annoying but anyone eager to cast spells and do nasty things in its name annoys me.” Nothing Selene did or said implied she was eager to cast spells or do anything nasty with them to anyone else. She was interested in clairvoyance, seeing the future, you taught her to meditate. She sat on your white couch for awhile, then ate dinner ,then played pool on her first visit, and send nothing about spells. On the second visit, you only talked about wallpaper. There might have been one other visit where I think she just sort of hung out. Never asked about spells. Oh well, I guess you get a lot of that from clueless newbies, and misremembered it. Selene never realized you were annoyed with her, but I guess she was dense that way.

    As for the underwear, etc. this Selene tripped all over the game, had many interactions, and her experiences were not only about witches, but just a sampling of the soup of TSO. That’s what that point was about more than anything.
11. 

    Summerville
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    As Piper does, I seem to remember Selene asking about spells also . But as you say we do see alot of people with no idea except what they see on television and movies.So i could be mistaken .Lol I hope you haven’t gotten anymore information from the *credible* source that said Piper was from Chicago if so you better go back over it !!
12. 

    Piper Halliwell
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    Dyer, you are quite right and I recall her now. I admit that had I known how many people full of excitement about Charmed would show up at my doorstep, I would not have chosen the name. I recall the conversation, yes. She was not one of the annoying ones..so in this at least you are correct.

    Summerville and I are fending off requests for “spells” every day. Sad really. So many people wanting to magically change their world…when a little meditation and self knowledge might make a world of change.

    Blessed Be
13. 

    Piper Halliwell
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    OH, BTW, I DID tell you why the balloons, please reread. Alot of my friends come back to me for help when they need it and I am glad of that. I try to make Sims as positive an experience as possible… and I fight Dorian/Evangeline/Granny daily in anyway I can.

    BB
14. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    Dyer, now it is wrong to want to collect balloons? I don’t, but is collecting balloons for any reason reprehensible to you? Who said you get to judge the rest of us. Should Piper fall down in front of you, repent, and swear that she will never collect another balloon because you think that is wrong now?

    Is that what you want? Perhaps secretly Dom not sub? Perhaps you don’t secretly want my boot at your throat. Perhaps what you want is for Alphaville to fall on our knees and worship you and live and play as you decree we should.

    Get help boy.
15. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    You should think about what Piper has said about karma. You act in ways that harm others and you have no care or thought of consequences to them. There was no note of feeling bad about having deceived Piper and Old Hippie after being welcomed in their home, nor after them taking the time with you that you requested. You took their kindness and tried to injur them. You are the evil in the game Dyer. Leave people alone.

    Shame on you.
16. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    First off, Dyer, I am not your “cheerleader.” I’m my own person, and I was reporting my own experiences. Second, my experience has been that you have never lied to me since I have known you in the game. I don’t remember any St. Bernard story.

    I believe in giving people credibility until I, personally, determine that they have lied about something, and I haven’t determined that in your case.

    coco
17. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    I hardly think anything I did harmed Piper or Old Hippie, and they were reflected only positively in Selene’s interview, as Uri himself points out, so I don’t believe any harm was done, and they aren’t claiming any, you’re just trolling for more trouble, LJ. Ouch, get that boot away, I really do not like boots. THEY weren’t the point of our hoax. We weren’t trying to expose THEM, in case you didn’t get it (but it should be obvious by now). We were trying to expose Uri’s propensity for cutting and pasting YM interviews from any old damn Sim. I don’t see how they were disparaged at all, except as a possible sidebar in calling attention to a larger problem of whether teenagers should be allowed to explore wiccan online in a game, when the adults who purchased the game and left them to use it had no idea that what they would get from that infernal box is all kinds of sub-cultures ready and willing to interact with teens. Maybe wiccans are now positioning themselves as a freedom-of-religion issue asking for equal time with all the world’s major religions, but that’s not what this is about.

    There’s nothing wrong with collecting balloons, LJ, and your hysterical rant about that, based on some prudish belief that *I’ve* somehow been prudish myself on this score just says more about you, not me. It’s just another example of that rigid, heavily corseted world that you inhabit. I was just playfully chiding Piper as seeming to be a balloon whore. It’s one of the things people do in the game, buy balloons in order to go up the popular list. She’s trying to say it’s a bit more altruistic than that, she is trying to provide money to people so that they get away from the evil FREE MONEY FOR NEWBIES lot. OK, I’ll buy that. In that, we can only salute her, in that she was trying to work at positive alternatives to help newbies, instead of leaving them to the clutches of Evangeline. Of course, I don’t know what sort of cat in a bag you get when you go from the clutches of Evangeline to a wiccan lot, but I would have to say that unlike Evangeline and her other griefer lots, and unlike BDSM, the wiccan lots we visited didn’t have this high-pressure, angry hard-sell and rigid belief system that they shoved in your face. You could take it at at your own speed, so to say, or leave it alone, and their slogans, like “blessed be” or “merry meet” are the kind of laid back slogans that seem to indicate they aren’t high pressure recruiters. I once saw Piper on a contest lot. She didn’t shove the whole wiccan thing down your throat, but just played the contest. Whereas the BDSM people enact out their lifestyle shticks anywhere they please, and are more unsettling in that respect, and also troll other romance lots looking for new recruits and pick-ups — and of that we have testimony. Of course both they and Piper have RL websites hawked on their profiles — RL in the sense that they provide gateways to meet them in RL and join their lifestyle (unlike mine or other Sim-related websites) and that is unsettling in terms of parents who might not want this game to be a gateway to subcultures.

    I’m waiting for that trefoil bad karma to come whallop me in the game…waiting….still waiting…um…waiting still…Hasn’t happened yet.
18. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    LOL Dyerbrook do you have actually testimony of someone in the BDSM lifestyle trolling the vanilla lots for sex.. or do you have the testimony of a hoax pretending to be in the actually Community?

    you havent came talked to me.. ~shrugs~ I do not think you actually even have asked coco what she observed that day on Lady J’s lot have you?

    Yes if someone is Scening on a non BDSM lot it is wrong in my opinion.. but you are not claiming this is what is happening.. your argument is the A/all speech the calling one Sir Maam or even Master … I do not see where this is evil… and you HAVE YET to tell us why..

    Stick to IN GAME topics first then lets move to Real life later.. one slice at a time not the whole cake..

    Piper I enjoy your words and I really hate to see another group fall victim to the Dyerism regeime…

    too bad he doesn’t listen to his “friends” he claims follow Wicca and do no harm as well.. for is it not mental as well as psychial? or Piper do I err?
19. 

    toy
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    dyer…. toy notices now that your contention and excuse for your lies and ranting is ‘its a game’.. so toy can draw from your own statement that you believe nothing you say. you like to play games with others feelings… you get off on it, so it is also obvious that something is really missing in your real life….
    toy is really starting to pity you more each day… when one is so depressed about their life that they feel they must make it game and try to draw others into their game. it is pathetic to the extreme…. so toy now does realize nothing you say is wht you believe… it’s all your game

    toy
20. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 25th, 2004
    

    I am just wondering now who is next on Dyer’s list? Are you going to try to find gay lifestyle houses, pose as a gay man, and try to infiltrate them to betray any friendship they might offer to you?

    So, let’s make this easier and save a lot of time and grief to others; who is okay with you Dyer? Outline what people must be to play in this game in the way that would please you. At least let us know what rules our would be saviour/dictator would have us live by.

    Hail Dyer! *snapping heels together, arm outstretched, moustache pencilled in*
21. 

    samhain
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Dyerbrook, I wanted to come to your defense as well, but you don’t need any “cheerleaders”. We haven’t talked in a while and even when we did it wasn’t all that much. But I have never known you to lie either. That is until recently. Now I understand why you asked me if I was a witch and whatnot. That was two months ago and now all this. I’m just glad that I didn’t divulge too much at the time. I would hate to think that you were just using me to make a story for this blog. But it would seem that those were your intentions. I know why you did it, I just don’t think it was right.

    You don’t have a true understanding of what Wicca is all about. You try and tie Wicca with BDSM which is just WAY off. You seem like you are so set in your ways that there is only black and white, no room for discussion. Thats too bad because at one time I had a lot of respect for you and the principles you stood for.

    As a “cheerleader” for Old Hippie, he is just the one driver as far as I know. Nice guy too.

    It’s too late for me to go into detail, I’ll have to do that tomorrow. But Dyerbrook, please do some research OUTSIDE of TSO the next time you need information..
22. 

    emerald'
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    For some reason when I read posts from dyerbrook….I am reminded of a song.

    It is rather long, so I will only posts parts of it here.

    *bows to Wierd Al for these words* Dyer, why didn’t you tell us that you had your own newsgroup?

    “You’ve gotta be the dumbest newbie I’ve ever seen
    You’ve got white-out all over your screen
    You think your Commodore 64 is really neato
    What kinda chip you got in there, a Dorito?
    You’re usin’ a 286? Don’t make me laugh
    Your Windows boots up in what, a day and a half?
    You could back up your whole hard drive on a floppy diskette
    You’re the biggest joke on the Internet
    Your database is a disaster
    You’re waxin’ your modem, tryin’ to make it go faster
    Hey fella, I bet you’re still livin’ in your parents’ cellar
    Downloadin’ pictures of Sarah Michelle Gellar
    And postin’ “Me too!” like some brain-dead AOL-er
    I should do the world a favor and cap you like Old Yeller
    You’re just about as useless as jpegs to Hellen Keller

    While your computer’s crashin’, mine’s multitaskin’
    It does all my work without me even askin’
    Got a flat-screen monitor forty inches wide wide
    I believe that your says “Etch-A-Sketch” on the side
    In a 32-bit world, you’re a 2-bit user
    You’ve got your own newsgroup, “alt.total-loser”
    Your motherboard melts when you try to send a fax
    Where’d you get your CPU, in a box of Cracker Jacks?
    Play me online? Well, you know that I’ll beat you
    If I ever meet you I’ll control-alt-delete you
    What? What? What? What? What?”
23. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Dear SamHain,

    Well, of course, you have no cause to believe me, but two months ago, when I asked you some question about wiccan, it was merely with the curiosity of anyone about it in TSO, especially how men relate to it, since there is confusion about what warlocks are in this belief system, etc. We hadn’t even thought up this prank 2 months ago, I don’t even think AV Herald existed 2 months ago. In fact, if I had remembered you and that conversation and your involvement in wiccan, you might well have gotten a visit or an IM from Selene to get more material for this prank, but since I wasn’t really following this aspect of you in TSO lately (I was just noting that you were building out the wall project), I didn’t think of it. So you have no call to accept anything I say as truth, but there it is. The idea that there are secrets you can’t divulge if someone is going to maybe use them in a prank to make a larger point about kids in TSO is disturbing, because it implies that your sub-culture, like others, can’t submit to public scrutiny without an elaborate set of rules of engagement and screaming about rights. It means that your subculture, like BDSM or others, is touchy and neuralgic and proud that it possesses arcane knowledge that mere mortals can never access. Outsiders are always going to be “wrong” and “clueless” in this worldview, and therefore subject to hate, manipulation, indoctrination, etc. These are all the recipies for cults and closed system. I’m sorry, but if you bring them from your safe sub-culture niche in a sheltered world into the larger world of TSO where there are many non-wiccans, you’ll have to be prepared for people to poke and press. They’ll ask you to justify your belief system with common sense questions.

    I feel absolutely no requirement to go outside TSO to research wiccan and somehow “enlighten” and “enlarge” my mind to be entitled to comment on it in TSO (has anyone ever noticed how these people in closed, secretive systems of arcane knowledge are always telling everybody *else* that they better be “open-minded”?) I think I can surely debate it as it presents itself in TSO, and challenge whether it should have a right to infuence teenagers and kids, and impressionable, clueless adults.

    And why is that? In most things in life, I would advocate open-ended inquiry and debate. But I’m not interesting in researching various sub-cultures. I’m interested in researching only TSO, and what happens when people bring their sub-cultures into the relative mainstream of TSO and expose teens and even children to them. And I’m interested in exposing Uri’s poor methodology. This prank could have been *about* something else. It was only about this because Uri is a sucker for witch stuff and it would work on him. If anything, your complaint that this newspaper didn’t research wiccan enough is a complaint to the editors who never double-checked a single thing Selene said.

    As far as tying BDSM with wiccan, well, that was just folowing up what Marie appeared to be saying, and pressing that angle. We don’t have a clear rebuttal from her, but just a lot of claptrap as usual. She appeared to make this link — go back and read my replies to her. I was merely making a sarcastic remark about her, and as a Gorean, she is a sub-set of a sub-culture, so not typical. Most wiccan I’ve run into don’t seem to be into BDSM but as sub-cultists themselves bent on obtaining legitimacy, they do nothing about BDSM in the game, so they feed into one another, it seems to me, in that way.

    I don’t get why satanists, practicers of witchcraft, and sado-masochists get to set up camp in a T-rated game and scream about their multicultural rights and deservance of tolerance. Why? They don’t.

    Once again, there are many parents in the land who don’t think game companies should rate a game teen and put it on the Internet and attract youth and expose them to adults recruiting for their subculture lifestyles of this type that contain very harmful elements, however you want to prettify them. They couldn’t get away with doing this in a public school, a public park, or a public library. Yet they feel they have a happy hunting ground here.

    Challenging everything, like our dear game box says, is not being a messiah or Hitler or whatever nutty thing somebody says about me. It is part of the battle to keep TSO free, so that it does not become a cesspool, and the company pulls the plug on it. It is a role, and about telling you that you don’t get a pass. There are some people who care about the world TSO becomes. You think wiccan is fine, and that is your right, but look, we have another opinion, from Raissonneur, saying it turns out to be another hustle to try to both gain power over other human beings, and serve as a ritual for those who feel powerless. That bothers me. Sure sounds a lot like BDSM in its ethic. I would have thought before that like many things guys get into it, it’s just another way to get laid and master arcane knowledge to feel superior to other people. Now I wonder more about it because of TSO. You can bleat and scream all you want about intolerance and freedom of religion, but if you come in here, you will have to realize that other people will challenge you, especially if it means you are part of making an unfree and hurtful world for our children, and if you are part of what virulently changes the whole culture and makes it unliveable for all of us interested in keeping a free and democratic society. You’ve all gotten so used to having your little sheltered multicult groups on your luxury campuses that you just don’t realize that if you come out of that shelter, you will face some criticism based on logic and common sense.

    I don’t think everything is black and white. But when someone else tells me everything is black and white (“You must accept wiccan as good” “We deserve tolerance even though parents worry about us” “Let us do want we want in TSO and don’t complain to us or we’ll call you a bigot), I’m sorry, I push back against these tyrannies of neuralgic minorities.
24. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Put your money where your mouth is Dyer. What are your rules that you would have TSO players play by so as not to offend you? Lay it out, if you can.

    I don’t think you can. I think you love being a griefer, that is your game. You love pointing fingers at others saying.. “Look how bad they are, and look how good I am for seeing how bad they are.”

    Go tell it to your mother Dyer. We are not interested.
25. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    LOL yet another long post that DOESN’T say anything from Dyer…

    B= Bondage… there is no way in game to hold anyone against their will so this is not a problem..

    D=Domination/Disipline (for I have seen it as both) there is no way in game to force anyone to accept either of these this therefore can not be a problem

    SM= Sadoism-Maschoism hmm Sims do not feel pain therefore this is not a problem in game..

    Closed Culture? nope we welcome questions if you are of age and we will try to answer what we think… if you come with an respectful attitude.. easier than getting the receipe for a nuclear bomb or for that manner
    even a draino bomb…

    but Dyerism does not show respect when asking it teaches that Hate is better to show when facing something that it doesnt understand… it teaches fear of a red balloon is better than seeking answers.. and by all means do not accept one opinion but seek out many for we are a deversifide group..

    Also do not come to a BDSM lot or a wicca lot or any of the other “sub-culture” lots expecting to find then just talking about their stronger points.. you will find normal chatter as well talking about the snow.. discussing the breakage of aglets.. how to make shoo-fly pie all kinds of things.. but you will not see at least in the BDSM lots I have attended “U wanna do me?” and if you do I can safely bet you will see the person asking that quickly leave…

    So I have explained to Dyerism BDSM and have yet to see how it can be forced upon anyone in game… unfortunally Dyerism will now blurr the lines of fantasy and reality again so they can have a reason to keep squawking

    I can not explain wicca for I have not studied that knowledge yet in my travels of life…
26. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    LOL and a fitting song for Dyerism Emerald..
27. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Catsye, I can only conclude that you are very young and unsophisticated and don’t realize that you have just hilariously proved my point about this neuralgic, touchy closed society built on a spectactual inferiority complex: “You must have a respectful attitude.” FIRST bow down and give us respect (that we may not deserve) THEN we will answer your questions. A sharp question is instantly dubbed “hate” and you get the boot. That’s not free inquiry in a free society, that’s a cult.

    BTW, this isn’t a thread about BDSM, but since Uri never does the slightest moderating (except of me, to tell me I am off-topic or too long-winded), and you keep nattering on, although all these points are debated ad nauseum under the other stories about BDSM, let me answer you here. There are ways to enthrall people besides using the physical whips and chains of the “meat world”. Look at how long the number one BDSM lot is online, for how many hours, and you will see my point. And each of these top lots *hooks upto real life scenes* DUH which is what has been my point all along, that people misuse this game to troll for pick-ups for their sex clubs, duh.
28. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    No Dyer this is a thread about scams and hoaxes which you claim BDSM is Duh… I explained it to you Duh… I did not say worship us Duh.. I said respect.. dont come in cussing.. do not come in with childish attitudes,, Duh Duh Duh.

    Dyerism Word of the day is Duh
29. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    there now to point above allow me to make a point into the chaotic minds of Dyerism.. you will note he doesnt have a problem with BDSM it is with showing respect to others for he chose that word to address not the others
30. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Are good manners completely foreign to you Dyer? Were you raised by wolves? Is it so wrong to insist on no swearing and good manners in my house? I hope not, for I do that in real life too.

    As for answering your questions… I don’t waste time on those unable to discuss intelligently. You do not discuss or argue, you spout off. To discuss or argue, you would need to be willing to listen to and hear the other side. You are not. I have no time for you little boy. I am not interested in your one sided opinions.

    Shoo!
31. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Lady J one must have intelligence to hold an intelligent conversation I ask you to excuse Dyer in this for he is unarmed
32. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    I second My Lady Julianna’s call,

    How about that List Dyer.
    Just who IS allowed to be in TSO according to your Rules?

    “FIRST bow down and give us respect (that we may not deserve) THEN we will answer your questions”

    No Dyer, We ask ONLY the Common Human Respect and Decency YOU would expect to be shown by a Guest in YOUR house.
    You came looking for us remember, None of us crowded into your home demanding you accept our rules. YOU did that to US.

    As for why the Wiccans should also be offended, Your intent was NEVER to learn honestly about their ways, as your Back and forth with Raisonneur seems to support. You wormed your way into their confidence with the intent of using what you learned there to make an attack on Uri. Your continued comments Linking the Wiccans to us only shows your intent, and your linking both them and us to Satanists shows your Willful ignorance, and Prejudice against both groups.

    “Be somebody else” is a Fun Concept,and we all practice it to one extent or another, But you deliberatly attempt to use your alternate identities to cause harm.

    Maria LaVeaux.
33. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    He is excused and dismissed.
34. 

    Mikal
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    hmmm…let’s see which is it..from the mouth of Dyer folks…which should be believed. “If you haven’t set out to convert AV — and I don’t make that claim — ” or “adults recruiting for their subculture lifestyles “? Which is it? Both of these are the words of Dyer obviously from 2 different forums. Wish to read for yourself? Check out the interview with Ma’am Maria LaVeaux and toy about Gor for the quote about not making that claim, and above for the other. It was stated in comments section there by Dyerbrook himself. Once minute states it abundantly……another minute retracts then comes full circle back to it. When should one believe what he says and when should one not? *Shrugs shoulders* i think i’ll continue down the path that shows that when one speaks with a forked tongue avoid, therefore i’ll steer clear of that one….never know what venom will pour forth from that mouth.
35. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Oh Mikal thank you for pointing that out and taking time to find it…

    I see the light now this is just another Dyerism hoax posting to discredit himself and bringing his friends along for the ride

    (though I am guessing that the friends he claims are just sims he shares with his other personality)
36. 

    toy
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    as far as lies dyer… toy remembers clearly in other threads that you denied tagging… then changed to maybe tagging….. then came right out and admitted you tagged.. then calmly reverted back to noooo never did tag…. that is obvious confusion on your part or outright lies dyer… which is it? are you hopelessly confused or just a liar?

    toy
37. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Mikal, that wasn’t very bright. There’s no contradiction here:

    “If you haven’t set out to convert AV — and I don’t make that claim — That is about a perceived intent take ALL OF AV and convert ALL OF IT into your lifestyle lots so that the ENTIRE THING is a playground for your BDSM perversion. I don’t ascribe that to you, because I don’t think you are capable of it, and I am not certain that you intend it.

    ” or “adults recruiting for their subculture lifestyles “? Well, duh, that’s about the more limited scope of adults recruiting members of their subscultures. That indeed goes on in AV in spades.

    There’s no retration, no double standard, no forked tongue here, Mikal, just your density, and failure to grasp any kind of nuances. One is about the demonstrable determination of the group of BDSM to recruit members for its clubs — to get sexual partners online and bring them into RL. That is UNDENIABLE. REPEAT UNDENIABLE. The other is a possibility, which even I say is not likely, that they want to completely take over AV and force out others who disagree with them. That I’m not sure of, although taking over a third of the romance lots is a good start on that project.
38. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Re: “wormed your way into their confidence with the intent of using what you learned there to make an attack on Uri.”

    Oh, yes, “guilty” as charged, but I hardly feel the slightest bit of guilt because I did not have to “worm” — I spent no more than an hour chatting briefly with these wiccans, and there was no confidences exchanged at all — Selene was something like 7 days old when she was “outed”. And her balloon friends don’t care near half as much as you do about this, they understand the target was Uri.

    There is the Worm of TSO..doubt that the 0-day Sim coming in your door isn’t in fact your ex Sim love coming to haunt you, or a SSG regular. But that’s the game. Everyone over 30 days knows that. We’re here, we’re queer. Get used to it.

    Yes, my creating and outing of Selene, with friends, is a public service, and not even the witches are saying that it is in violation of their “an harm none” mantra. The record can now show — unless Uri decides to make Selene an “unthread” like Maxis and Stratics — that Uri’s material is suspect, subject to falsity and manipulation, and not credible in an academic study, unless — he’s now doing some fancy footwork on Terra Nova — nice save Uri! – unless it’s supposed to be a study about how people make various lies and avatars and manipulate their investigators, like a fantastic living Nils Bohr effect.

    Only naive, cramped silly minds could find some “harm” done by my spoof. Uri’s methods are outed. Wiccans aren’t outed. Wiccans themselves are saying, gee, Uri, why didn’t you check that story with us, we’re the authorities here, not some 15 year old girl. If we wanted to out wiccan, we’d have to do more undercover detective work, and who has the time? Let others hang with them and out them if they become disillusionedi in their lifestyle.

    Regarding the need to be “mannerly” on BDSM lots, the “manners” that we are told to “mind” there involve an apriori acceptance that the visitor is about to be ushered into a privileged, arcane, special, secret way of life, and he had better bow down and be aware of that, or else! Anything that is perceived as too flippant immediately draws the boot. THe haughty — silly and easiy parodied — manner in which LJ keeps trying to “dismiss” me or riducule me as a “boy” are just too funny — they keep doing their BDSM shtick in all the wrong places. Keep it on your lot, where you can get it to work, hon. It doesn’t work out here. Manners are important, but not as defined as obstacles to free inquiry, which is how they are used in the BDSM lot. Indeed, we are told by each and every sub that we can’t bring our very concerns that he or she IS a sub to them directly for a conversation, but have to take all our concerns and problems to their masters. So I ask you whether this is an acceptable form of manners, or whether it is slavery and manipulation that idiots are asking us to accept and tolerate in the name of extending their pathetic power games to the rest of us in TSO. No sale.
39. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Taking over? please tell me one romance lot that was taken over? how was that accomplished any way in game? did we buy the stock options and forcefully change it to a BDSM house? are you upset that the BDSM houses are open more than the other houses? hmm more popular than the other lots? maybe because we believe in manners and proper ettique and people enjoy this OMG what a concept…

    again Dyerism fails to address this seemingly youth or unsophiscated ones posts for he has not the learning to address such simple words asking for him to elaberate on his views of why BDSM is wrong in AV.. I have using Dyerism’s own definitation of explaing BDSM explained it to him and still nothing said about why it is wrong in game..

    I call your bet Dyer I want to see your hand for you are bluffing… yet again…
40. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Back off my sub Dyer or I’ll get nasty. Mikal is a wonderful man with a creative (and naughty) mind that I adore. He is honest, hard working, a wonderful father, and he never sets out to purposely hurt another, unlike you. He does not need to hoax, fool, or lie to others to make his life better, for he is not pathetic like you. His life is rich and full. Over the past seven months that I have known him, he has shown me to be always honest.

    He does not lie like you and then try to make the lie pure truth by dancing around like a 6-year-old with words and excuses.

    Mikal and I are like most BDSM couples in the game. We have never met, and we will never meet in real life. I have been married for 21 years to the same wonderful man, have three children and a grandson. I am faithful to my husband. He knows about Mikal and how I play in the game and has no problem with it. Mikal is the father of two and is engaged to a wonderful woman, who knows about me and how Mikal and I play together. There is no deception here, and Mikal and I will never meet in real life.

    Most of us play like that. Those who do meet in real life are rare, I know of only two instances where the people met in real life, and in both cases the parties involved were free and single, and consenting adults, so that is not your business.

    So much for your theory of recruiting for real life sex clubs. Get real Dyer.

    You are fantasizing again Dyer! Grabbing my whip, placing my stiletto heeled boot on a chair and leaning my elbow on my knee, letting the tails of the whip hang down. Leaning forward… you can see my ample cleavage pressing against the restraint of my black leather corset. My sea green eyes are locked onto yours, never moving from your face. My long red hair hangs in soft curls, caressing my pale skin. My lip curls in a sneer of contempt for you.

    Now there is something to fantasize about Dyer. Or have a stroke over. Your choice, I don’t care which you do.
41. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    we are told by each and every sub that we can’t bring our very concerns that he or she IS a sub to them directly for a conversation, but have to take all our concerns and problems to their masters.

    LOL talk to toy I am sure she will respond.. as for my girls they can talk to you if they wish to.. if they do not then they will tell you to talk to me.. see I tell them to use that to avoid talking to those they do not wish to talk to so they dont have to resort to rudeness ~smiles~ but Dyer look me up in game if you wish to discuss anything WL Royal.. heck pull up a chair in my lot and we can talk in bubble I do not discrimiate but I will not discuss aspects of the style which maybe age sensetive for I can not believe you are 18 or older it might just be another hoax
42. 

    TSKelli
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Uri, per his posts elsewhere, isn’t upset about this anymore. He has taken the ruse in its stride.

    Dyerbrook seems to be trying to make some statement about the journalistic standards of the Herald — but of course has violated all standards of decency and honesty in doing so. i am not a journo and i don’t care about what journo standards are … as a lawyer, i take offence at deliberate deceit, it is akin to fraud because of the deliberate nature of it.

    Personally, i dislike the ruse because it crosses the line between permissible fake (as are all avies) and deliberate.misleading fake (as are some avies). A line that may be somewhat had to draw in some cases (debatable), but one which Selene Moon crossed deliberately and that simply isn’t ethical, ImO.

    Kelli
43. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    hmm Kelli I was thinking along the lines of Entrapment myself… many of the Hoaxers can say they did it to prove that there are people out there who need a lesson.. the scams that take the elder generations money.. heck even van targets the newbies for they are unedcuated in that aspect.. ~shrugs~ another argument to Van following Dyerism.. even so far as to use Profanity to stress their point
44. 

    toy
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    ~sighs~ noticing once again dyer fears to answers toys questions

    dyer, honestly now, toy has been trying to see things from your point of view but needs to ask one question before she can move further… just how is it you can manage to get your head so far up your ass?

    toy
45. 

    Mistress maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Dyer;
    “we are told by each and every sub that we can’t bring our very concerns that he or she IS a sub to them directly for a conversation, but have to take all our concerns and problems to their masters.”

    Well Dyer, My slave keeps talking to you,, she keeps demanding “Answers to hard Questions” in the Fashion you seem to so admire in yourself.

    You can’t hide behind your above quote, because in this case, it just simply Isn’t true. it is Just another Dyerism.

    No Restriction,, No Excuse.
    Answer her If you Dare.

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.

    PS,
    To My Lady,
    I don’t know or care if you got Dyer fantasizing, but you sure got my attention chere. ~
46. 

    toy
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    toy has been pondering some rather disturbing thoughts…… please anyone at all correct toy in her assumptions in this train of thought…
    dyer is claiming that his hoax, toy considers it an attack, not a hoax against Uri….. and it seems dyer is stating that the ends justified the means…. consider this then…. was the 9-11 attack acceptable to you dyer. after all the attackers claim the same reasoning as you do.

    toy
47. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Oh my Maria… *blush*

    Bending my knee out.. hand on hip… oh my, I forgot to wear panties.. Winks at Dyer. “Would you like to clean my boots Dyer?”
48. 

    Mikal
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    “we are told by each and every sub that we can’t bring our very concerns that he or she IS a sub to them directly for a conversation, but have to take all our concerns and problems to their masters.”
    a lot of subs in regards to this do this for protection. myself, i volunteered to place this onto my bio. i can and freely do talk to vanillas. i don’t talk about BDSM. i talk about family, skills and such when on a skill lot, money making issues, work and all that. That post in on bios for the subs protection from those trying to start trouble. i’d talk to you in game, however, it’s obvious that all you’d do it start trouble, so that’s obviously not going to happen. Almost everytime i’ve posted that’s what you’ve done. *shrugs* oh well…you can’t hurt me with it…why? Because i won’t let you.
49. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Bravo Mikal! Well said! … turning my gaze to you, eyes sparkling with love. Smiling that warmest of smiles, the one reserved for only you my darling, my beloved submissive and husband.
50. 

    Mikal
    

    Jan 26th, 2004
    

    Thank You, Mistress *looking at You with love shining forth in my eyes….* i love You my Mistress and my Wife. *dreaming of You… and a previous description of Yourself >:)*

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