A Visit to Le Pen’s Headquarters in SL
by Alphaville Herald on 10/12/06 at 6:07 pm
When we recently posted a story about a group associated with the French National Front Youth opening an office in Second Life we didn’t have any pictures yet. Well we can’t have *that*. Managing Editor Pixeleen Mistral and Urizenus Sklar went to visit the HQ and encountered another visitor who was happy to give us a tour. (We swear this really happened!) More snaps below the fold.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 10th, 2006
It’s dismaying that a party like this is in SL, but if there is no actual crime that one can point to, then the right to assembly applies. I imagine the Lindens aren’t going to be very brisk about applying any TOS about hate speech, and it would have to occur within SL, and have a complaint filed by a resident, to even be considered. And as we know, the Lindens are just going to leave all the policing to us with their new AR system, and so the only thing to do is to form an Anti-Fascist Front just like people did in the 30s.
I suppose the good news is that the possibilities of SL with its fluidity and openness will also reveal the connections with even worse groups that something like Le Pen’s party might have and be able to deny in RL — it might become more visible.
So…the Sim Shadow Government…W-Hat/v-5…the griefing Second Citizen…all virtual…all enabled…and now this — very real. All that is needed is for good men to do nothing…
Pierre Le Grande Mussolini
Dec 10th, 2006
sieg heil
pierre
Pikey
Dec 10th, 2006
ban the gays
pikey
Patchouli Woollahra
Dec 11th, 2006
It’s people like you I’m ashamed of sharing a grid with…
/No, Prokofy, not you, the two asshats right after you.
It kind of appalls me to say this, but as much as I would like to just yell ‘Burn the FNFY office’, I am prepared to defend your freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech, not license to hate speech.
Tolerance is one of Second Life’s biggest joys, and the only intolerance anyone should harbor is that of intolerance. One step out of line, and the AR begins.
Artemis Fate
Dec 11th, 2006
I’m still really surprised that an ultra conservative campaigning group is taking a stake in SL, a considerably liberal place, even more so a FRENCH ultra conservative campaigning party.
Does SL even HAVE any conservative French people to preach too?
humanoid
Dec 11th, 2006
Hate speech is a term used by people who aren’t terribly fond of free speech in the first place. They hide behind it, like a cheap halloween mask. I’ve not yet read of or seen anyone point out a single objectionable thing about these French people. Other than the fact that they’re French, of course.
Chani Twin
Dec 11th, 2006
Please dont make some pub for That… we have Already a bad Image for other country …
i Shame when i See That..
Chani Twin, Jeuxoline French Forum Redactice
Ordinal Malaprop
Dec 11th, 2006
Somehow, I don’t think you’ve looked very hard.
Ordinal Malaprop
Dec 11th, 2006
(to “humanoid”, I hasten to add)
humanoid
Dec 11th, 2006
Malaprop: Nope. I’ve read every article about the FN I’ve come across, and watched every television report. I don’t ignore overseas politics. Every single piece has included all sorts of dark allegations and no specifics or direct quotes. I’ve read stories about Bigfoot that contain more specifics about the article topic than what is written about LePen and the FN.
Eloise
Dec 11th, 2006
Humanoid, can I suggest you read the French press? I happened to be in France during parts of the last presedential campaign. Le Pen wasn’t as frothing as Hitler, but a lot of the “France for the French,” “Send the Africans back to Africa” (seemingly regardless of their history in Algeria, and whether the Africans in question were of Arabic or Black African origin and the like were clearly racist in anyone’s definition (including French TV news).
Cheap jokes about who else would want France aside, Le Pen himself is clever, or his speech writers are. He never, to my knowledge, comes out and says [Insert racist comment of choice] go home or similar, France has laws about such things that are rather more abruptly and efficiently applied than ARs but despite Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité he talks a non-egalitarian, non-fraternal message, in which white folk of Frankish origin will be treated better than everyone else. Actually, if he appears in SL and continues speaking in such a way, he might not get banned (sadly). He personally doesn’t come out with hate speech, he’s positive but selective about who he’s going to help in such a fashion and why. As for the FNJ… a small amount of digging through their site shows up a load of flim-flam that tries to say Nationalist Militants (Militant(e) nationaliste) are hard to define, but we definitely have some in our ranks. To be honest I don’t care how you define nationalist militants, I’m really quite sure I don’t want any part of their politics.
Oki Sakai
Dec 11th, 2006
A few Le Pen quotes from a somewhat lazy google search:
“I have said and I repeat, at the risk of being sacrilegious, that the gas chambers are a detail of the history of the Second World War.”
“I’m not saying that the gas chambers didn’t exist. I couldn’t see them myself.”
“If you take a book of a thousand pages on the Second World War, in which 50 million people died, the concentration camps occupy two pages and the gas chambers ten or 15 lines, and that’s what one calls a detail.”
“There must be an authority, and we believe that the most qualified authority in a household is the man’s.”
“They [the immigrants] will ruin, invade, overflow us, sleep with our wives, daughters and sons.”
“Yes, I do believe in the inequality of races!”
“Olympic games show clearly inequalities between the black and white races concerning, for example, athletes, and runners in particular. It’s a fact. [...] I’m stating what I see. [...] Egalitarianism is simply absurd.”
david pasteur
Dec 11th, 2006
As a French Second Life player, I ave to say that I am concerned. In my country, Le Penn and your Bush President are not so different – far right and fundamental. In some way I think they are very close, he even supports the War in Iraq – merdi! But, I am though concerned that this is the first Francais cultural exposure.
DP.
Oki Sakai
Dec 11th, 2006
Sorry, one more… I remembered reading this a while ago in Harper’s and just found it on the net…
“What do I have to do to prove that I’m not a racist? marry a black? With AIDS?”
http://www.smallspiralnotebook.com/afrenchinterview.htm)
david pasteur
Dec 11th, 2006
Oki, you are very American for sure, so literal! This is very common irony in France, and should be only taken at face value. My Father says this often too, its a generation thing. We have the same problems as you do, the far right, at least LePen does not have guns!
DP.
Oki Sakai
Dec 11th, 2006
David, I wasn’t posting any of that as any kind of US vs France statement. That would be stupid. I just remembered this nutcase saying some very stupid things during the last election in France, so thought I would try to find some of it and share for those that might not be familiar with him.
Yeah, we definately have our own far-right pseudo-fascist politicians, and we actually go so far as to elect them president… twice.
And I will take your word for it that the comment he made is somehow unoffensive when spoken in french… but the interviewer didn’t seem to think so, and he says that neither did the French press.
Wolfram Hayek
Dec 11th, 2006
Dear all,
First of all it is actually a branch of the FNJ that set up the FNSL and not a random “group” as stated in this article. I understand fully that San Fransisco-based geeks may have no sympathy for the FN and the values it stands for but it would honor the author to remain neutral about the topic instead of trying to describe the FN as fascists and Nazis, of whom it is as far as it could be.
I confirm that this Tristan Mineff avatar visited the FNSL office. He is not member of the FNSL and doesn’t even speak French. You can IM him to get a proof of that. He has probably been attracted here by all the talk describing the Front National as a fascist lair, unless he deliberately designed this costume to pose in our store as a provocation. I say that because I remember seeing him before standing in the office in normal clothes. By the way, I could also show you pictures of raccoon-like avatars visiting the FNSL as well (see the avatars of Jas Swain and Clement Fleury, both members of the FNSL).
But the snapshot opportunity was too good to be missed, I understand that
The FN opened its branch in SL in the framework of its 2007 electoral campaign in order to open a space for free discussion and make the FN and its propositions known as they really are, not the way the media describe it.
@ Oki Sakai,
Le Pen has never supported the war in Iraq. His wife created the SOS Iraqi children NGO years ago, during the 10-years long US embargo on food and medicines of the 1990’s and he was always tenant of a diplomatic issue of the Iraqi crisis.
About the accusations of racism, anyone looking further than the mainstream media noise could tell a completely different story. Aside the fact that defending one’s identity is nowadays systematically rejected as “racism”, the system’s politicians are scared to hell of the rise of the FN which means the rejection in mass by the population of 30 years of Marxist economic and cultural politics which lead France to the decline it experiences today.
Le Pen is by many ways no more radical than the U.S. Republicans.
- He is against illegal immigration into France, just like G.W. Bush and Ariel Sharon, without going as far as building walls around the country. He only plans to suppress the financial incentives that bring 3rd world immigrants to the French welfare state.
- He is for developing French universities in Africa to help those countries to form and keep their elites to sustain African development instead of plundering the intellectual resources of the continent. This idea is supported by many African heads of state, many of whom are personal friends of JMLP.
- He is against the mandatory 35 working hours week, which is an aberration imposed by the Socialists in the last decade. As Le Pen says: “The French work 35 h a week, while the Chinese sleep 35 h a week”.
- He is for the gradual suppression of the income tax, which has been praised by numerous Nobel Prize winners but has always been rejected by the Marxists from the Left and the Right alike.
- He has ambitious plans for economical reforms such as making Provence the “California of Europe” and bringing back the hundreds of thousands of European researchers which are currently exiled in the Silicon Valley or MIT because of insufficient European R & D spending.
In a few words, Le Pen’s project could as closest be described as ‘Reaganian” and has nothing to with “fascism” whatsoever. I could go on but I plan to expose the program in our store so you could read it there. Read also my answer to this post:
http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2006/12/another_sl_firs.html#comment-26415708
Best Regards,
Wolfram Hayek
FNSL
Raddick Szymborska
Dec 11th, 2006
I for one am glad to welcome someone to SL who makes Goreans look better.
To be serious, it is interesting to me that Conservatism in France would take this form. There appears to be little opportunity in French culture for a moderate conservative political outlook. One is either way Left or far to the Right. Pourquoi?
As for this party employing ‘Hate Speech’, I generally do not rely on the opinion of one who differentiates ‘Hate Speech’ from ‘Free Speech’.
Eloise
Dec 12th, 2006
> “What do I have to do to prove that I’m not a racist? marry a black? With AIDS?”
If he’d stopped at “…Marry a black?” I would have found it unfunny, but might have accepted it was meant as a joke or off the cuff satire. Adding “With AIDS?” makes me wonder rather more deeply. Why would marrying someone with AIDS be a sign that you’re not racist, unless you have the completely incorrect and inherently racist attitude that AIDS is a disease of black people?
Rob Arten
Dec 12th, 2006
I’d just like to insert a little note on the character that is Tristan Mineff. He wears that uniform every day of his Second Life, and is not the kind of character you’d, say, let your kids near. He has repeatedly paraded round the HQ of the Alliance Navy, dropping autokillers and spamming our chat with ‘Seig Heil’ every 5-6 seconds. He honsetly beleieves himself to be the SL version of Hitler, which I am deeply worried about.
Seriously, I’d give him a wiiiide berth.
Artemis Fate
Dec 12th, 2006
I think the fact that the representative from FNSL couldn’t stop himself from saying “Marxist” twice in a short paragraph post that isn’t even ABOUT Marxism says enough for me. Sounds like the McCarthy side of the far-right crazy spectrum.
Ordinal Malaprop
Dec 12th, 2006
Eloise:
> unless you have the completely incorrect and inherently racist attitude that AIDS is a disease of black people?
Le Pen seems to have something particular about AIDS; he’s advocated locking anyone with it up away from society, and apparently made up his own pejorative term for them. Of course, this demonisation of a medical condition connected in the popular imagination with gay people fits in well with the far-right’s ideas about “sexual degenerates”. The fact that it’s also a problem in Africa is probably a bonus.
Ordinal Malaprop
Dec 12th, 2006
I have to say in general that it’s very unlikely that anyone responsible for this build will actually cause any problems. The FN is one of the far right front parties (like the BNP in the UK) which pretends some sort of respectability. They won’t be griefing gay clubs and so on, and they’d deny any connection with anyone who did, just like they would deny connection with anyone, say, vandalising a synagogue IRL. However, their presence in either reality serves to reinforce the idea that racism and bigotry is a respectable position, and thus reinforces the fringes as well as distorting the middle ground.
Most of the Nazi types that I’ve seen in SL have been internet provocateurs doing it for effect, but there are some who really are proper fascists, who will no doubt be gratified by this, even though the public face of the FN won’t be extreme enough for them. Luckily LL are not at all sympathetic to that sort of behaviour.
Tristan Mineff
Dec 13th, 2006
Hello, i am fuhrer der deutschen. the one in those photos. let me explain for those simple minded peaple out there who think all germans are nazis. you see, we are a german army group based around the Real Life modern german army, and are in no way accociated with nazism, skinheads or Nazi Germany. we are just patriotic germans. if americans came over and had a tag that says ‘leader of america’ and they lead an american army that symbolizes the Real Life modern american army, im sure you all wouldnt think of indians skinning peaples heads. we are not facists. we just happen to have land nearby. you shouldnt licen to everything you see in papers. we are just patriotic germans. nothing more nothing less. the group name infact, is REPUBLIC of germany. im ashamed at all you americans and french and other from all different nations that apear to think that we patriotic germans, are nazis or facists.
Urizenus
Dec 13th, 2006
It that’s true Tristan, then maybe you shouldn’t say “Sieg Heil” so much. Just a thought.
Tristan Mineff
Dec 13th, 2006
i never said sieg heil….
Tristan Mineff
Dec 13th, 2006
“designed this costume to pose in our store as a provocation” by the way Oki, the costume actouly is a copy of the real life modern german uniform. and if you can tell by the flags we fly. they are not swastikas. they are german flags.
Tristan Mineff
Dec 13th, 2006
for all those editors and Managers ETC ETC, im going to sue you if you dont take down this stuff that says im a nazi, or related to nazism. its called libel.
Artemis Fate
Dec 13th, 2006
“for all those editors and Managers ETC ETC, im going to sue you if you dont take down this stuff that says im a nazi, or related to nazism. its called libel.”
Congratulations! You are the one millionth person to threaten to sue someone for Libel in Second Life!
Prokofy Neva
Dec 13th, 2006
Yes, the French brought us the guillotine. Le Pen seems to be pretty well documented as an extremist party that is guilty of racism — this is well known in Europe.
And Le Pen doesn’t make common cause with Bush in terms of having summits with Bush or something, but he gets visits from David Duke, and that’s what you have to worry about.
Bush is not the moral or political equivalent of Le Pen, that’s silly. Bush does not make those kinds of blatantly racist, revisionist comments, whatever you want to say about his idiocy.
nicolas gonzalez
Dec 14th, 2006
I am a franch citizen. I am not a second life player.
I just wand our friend from america to understand, and be sure, of that is following :
Le Pen’s lair, i.e. French National Front (Front National) is an extremist organisation, dealing with hatefull, racist and negationist ideas.
Unhappily, theyare very popular in France, basing their campaign on strong arabian and african people average in france.
They are facist. Simply.
And they represent around 25% of the french people way of thinking.
Recently, an tunisian citizen was “accidently” killed by french police. Such facts happend every day in France now.
Please, friends from other country, be aware that France is now a racist and facist country before to visit us !
Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nicolas gonzalez
Dec 14th, 2006
I am a franch citizen. I am not a second life player.
I just wand our friend from america to understand, and be sure, of that is following :
Le Pen’s lair, i.e. French National Front (Front National) is an extremist organisation, dealing with hatefull, racist and negationist ideas.
Unhappily, theyare very popular in France, basing their campaign on strong arabian and african people average in france.
They are facist. Simply.
And they represent around 25% of the french people way of thinking.
Recently, an tunisian citizen was “accidently” killed by french police. Such facts happend every day in France now.
Please, friends from other country, be aware that France is now a racist and facist country before to visit us !
Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jerome Gaudry
Dec 14th, 2006
Comments about : Prokofy Neva or Nicolas gonzalez
FIRST :
>>>They represent around 25% of the french people way of thinking.
Your sentence is the article I have read and that made me come to this website, but what I have really read is that “25% of french people agree with FN ideas” and NOT that FN represent 25% of french people and that make a big difference
>>>Recently, an tunisian citizen was “accidently” killed by french police. Such facts happend every day in France now.
I am living out of France but what I read about this and what french friends told me was that :
A tunisian was found dead hours after that he has been arrested by 3 officers. THAT’S ALL!!! NOBODY know if he was killed, and if so, NOBODY know who killed him!!!
You are arguing about FN ideas and you act exactly like them, that’s meams : taking information from nowhere, modificating it, and transmitting these ideas to else people that do not have the original information
>>>>France is now a racist and facist country before to visit us
I do not remember that France was like this on my last trip. But reading what you wrote I clearly remember that France (like other countries) is full of stupid people
Best regards Gonzo
Jerome
Frogger
Dec 14th, 2006
@Nicolas Gonzales
A few precisions :
- As of today, no one knows if the police is responsible for the death of this tunisian guy. This case is still under investigation. I don’t think it’s a good idea to spread some wrong facts, even if I absolutely agree that if the police should be convicted of racist crime, it should be punished with an extreme severity.
- Such fact doesn’t happen every day ! What a foolish and stupid statement ! The proof is that when it happens, fortunately rarely enough, all TVs, radios and Newspapers are talking about it. France is not a country where the police could kill someone for their own pleasure and then hide it from the media. What message do you really intend to communicate ???
I don’t like racism and intolerance, but I’m very afraid of such misinformation. But maybe it was just ironical…
Jerome Gaudry
Dec 14th, 2006
I agree Frogger
I have just react to Nicolas Gonzales last post.
Thanks for your post Frogger
Xavier
Dec 14th, 2006
Nicolas, you are stupid.
I don’t know how old you are, but I am a frenchman as well and I think your behaviour is not the one an adult should have.
France is neither racist, nor fascist, and you could have more consideration for our families, friends, relatives, colleagues, who work everyday for a better country.
Nothing is perfect, I agree with you, I don’t like Le Pen too, he is dangerous, but that’s the price we have to pay to live in a democracy.
French people are not racists, because french people are no one but you and me. I don’t consider myself as a racist, and we are the one to look after what s going on in France.
There is no 25% of population thinking that… and 30% believing that…. we are more than figures, more than groups with no name, we are a sum of people with ideas, wishes, dreams and concerns.
It’s true that you won’t always be welcome in France, but not because of some ideology, only a very french lack of Savoir vivre.
fonfon
Dec 14th, 2006
25% of french people are afraid of the future, with th precariousness more and more deeply present in our country, they are exceded by the non political choice of many political party. Le pen use this. Since 2002, he changed his strategy and become more republican (for example, see his news political campaing). France is a country with its contradictions : land of the human rights, demonstration, freedom of speech, but also the opposite, as in usa, or germany and so on.
i am french, my grand father have been jailed by french police for resistance during the WWII. see th e contradiction. but if 25% are agree with SOME of lpen ideas, 75% do not.
Xavier
Dec 14th, 2006
Excellent Fonfon!
I like your point of view
Urizenus
Dec 14th, 2006
If you are coming here via Yahoo France, feel free to comment in French language (or for that matter, if you just feel like practicing your French).
Nico
Dec 14th, 2006
Hi all!
My name is Nicolas, 32 years old, living in Paris.
I’m sorry to do not use a fluent english on this forum and to do not being a ‘gamer’ of SL.
So, I’m French and have had the pleasure to travel a lot around the world since 15years.
What I can after reading all your tchat, is that is true that the FN has some idiot idea of what should be live on earth and in our country BUT, nobody can 2 things:
1- I can tell you that is not lying about the FACTs of what is happening in France.
2- This ‘national’ politic is REALLY FAR from the nationalism I have seen in all country where I’ve been tripping and living also !!
France is still the country in the world who offers the more helps (human, administrativ and financial) for strangers, students, workers, from ALL country, and specifikly for poor country.
Hope to be readen
bjs
Dec 14th, 2006
Fuck dat shit
greg(d)
Dec 14th, 2006
it’s funny to read the reaction of american people about sometimes very stupid like this… Ok LE PEN and FN are big problems but it’s not an american problem it’s only a french problem… For the moment for american people the problem is president…
Take Care guys
Oki Sakai
Dec 14th, 2006
@Wolfram:
I never said anything about Le Pen supporting the Iraq war.
@Tristan:
I never said anything abour your costume.
@rnO
Dec 14th, 2006
I am french people, and I am for the “Front national” but I am not racist, facsist, stupid, etc…
Contrary at you, I have understand the true problem of the world : Islam, delinquance …
The far left (communists internationalist) is for open the borders, then isn’t the solution. The solution is to close the borders. It’s for that I am for the FN.
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Dec 14th, 2006
“”"”it’s funny to read the reaction of american people about sometimes very stupid like this… Ok LE PEN and FN are big problems but it’s not an american problem it’s only a french problem… For the moment for american people the problem is president…
Take Care guys”"”"
So you’d have nothing to say if the NAACP, Black Panthers, KKK, etc. came into SL to promote thier views?
What’s interesting is that you (French) point out about our (American) reaction to this, yet you (French) say our problem is Bush(American)…
Johhny B Good
Dec 14th, 2006
Well i am very sad about what i read. Yes the FN is a very dangerous party, and it is true that they r gaining vote in France BUT, if of course the party is full of fascists, negationists, homophobes and etc, it is before a party for the weak and the miserable who want to curb immigration, to be safe at home ( as you know a black man or a muslin has a genetical code that affords him to kill, steal and rape better and quicker than a nice white boy )No seriously it is also full of lost people , fed up by the political process and who decided that Lepen was speaking frankly (cf the quotes above) and, a man who mapped out the rising urban felony. This is what made him really popular cuz indeed, France is gettin more and more violent.
. @rnO, you r so write, you DID understand the problems of the world: communism, Islam and immigration, however you r still unable to write english properly… You must be a geopolitician or some hot intellectual, or maybe you r just fed up with your own mediocrity and you would like to believe that voting JM Lepen will help you to be more intelligent. Well, keep going
No Lepen is not like George W Bush, I don(t think that this guy is racist, maybe dumb but not racist as Lepen. ANd NO France is not a racist country, UNTRUE !
Xavier
Dec 15th, 2006
As long as people will think the problem comes from Muslim and Black people, I mean as long as people will believe everything is displayed on their tv screen, we will have Le Pen with 25% of the population behind him.
Sadly, since September 11th, since USA decided that there was a axe of evil, since medias of “civilised” countries decided in one voice that there were terrorists living in your neighborhood, the world has changed.
This is a endless story that generates more and more distrust, fear, growing hatred in both sides, and I hardly believe there will be a happy end..
mdw78
Dec 15th, 2006
I am sorry for my English,
Truths problem in France are the politicians who are unable to manage the country well,
France suffers from heaviness administrative and tax which blocks any independent initiative,
added has that the social policy which empties the cases of the state,
imagine, a foreigner who comes to France without seeking one works, touches full with assistance, an example a family with 4 child’s
touch without working 1700 euro 2200$!!! to add has that several assistances, without being French!
The majority of the immigrants do not come to work but benefit from the social assistance which is very expensive to the French taxpayer,
whose standard of living has to fall these last years!
To like are country and to show it is more and more badly seen, statement “Vive la France” has a racist connotation to see fascistic,
The 6.000 0000 of Muslim in France is also a big problem, these beginning again plot to prevent any nationalism
and to each time destroy the French identity while shouting with racism….
The statistics prove which have more aggression of white made by Arabic whereas it accounts for 10% of the population,
During the riots of October 2005 the majority of the rioters were Muslim and one could hear cries anti-French and anti-Jews.
The PEN is perhaps racist but are program electoral and the ideas of left does not have anything racist nor of fascist
this is a handling of the media and intellectuals French who as a majority of socialiste(communiste) are supported by the powerful Muslim lobby of France.
grompf
Dec 15th, 2006
I fully support what Xavier says.
FN is not what people want to let you think.
As I have some sympathy to FN, I can assure you that this french political party has nothing to do with rascisme and stuff like that.
Imagine that in France, as an illegal (or legal) immigrant, you get for free:
- medical assistance (via an organisation called CMU)
- revenue (RMI which stands for Integration Minimum Revenue)
- a flat (as we have seen recently with the CACHAN exemple)
You even get you metro card sponsored by the regional council of Ile de France. They refund you 75% of the cost of your travel card!
What a pleasure to be an immigrant in France.
And being against that would mean being fascist?
Let’s stop joking.
jalon
Dec 15th, 2006
(sorry for my bad english)
Most of people you can see in the street are sons of immigrants. They speak a perfect french, they are born here and you want to send this people in a country they don’t even know ?
Cmon, you have to recognize France is not anymore a “white” country. And this is a problem only for this people who can’t found a job and contribute because of racism (or discrimination, which it’s not exactly the same thing) from people who don’t accept this fact.
And France is’nt a poor country like our medias want to show.
It is about the luck of being born in the good side of the planet.
Racism and hate in the FN are not a “details”. Read the Le Pen’s quote may be ?