Why Griefing = Drama: Broken Immersion
by Alphaville Herald on 18/02/08 at 10:27 pm
A virtual “world” creates an environment where griefers can do the most damage
by Mudkips Acronym
[I recently invited the founder and retired leader of the notorious PN invasion/griefing group to write an expanded version of his recent thesis on the serious business of griefing. Here is his response - the Editrix]
“Griefing” takes many forms in Second Life, but the results are the same. There are dozens if not hundreds of “anti-griefing” groups, all devoted to filing abuse reports, I guess. Why does griefing and trolling ignite so much drama and controversy in online communities? And why do griefing actions get an amused or positive response from people not in those communites? The answer is simple: griefing exacts the toll that it does on Second Life for example, because it breaks the immersive experience users have – or attempt to have – in “virtual worlds”.
There are a few different types of immersion we should differentiate before proceeding. First off, a movie, game, or other “alternate-reality” has a set maximum immersion. For example, an action movie starring Arnold Schwarzenegger may be expected to have less immersion than a drama or romance film. We expect Arnold to be able to fly over tractor-trailers on a motorcycle, and we do not question this when it happens, even though the scene violates all we know about physics – and common sense! We can’t get too caught up in this concept: of course, we can be “immersed” in this movie while still maintaining a suspension of disbelief. However, it takes much more work to immerse yourself in a medium where often events are surreal: I call this phenomenon absurdity. A film that is in a normally “serious” genre often has high maximum immersion, so if it does not deliver on its implicit claims to reject absurdity, the viewer will find the film laughably horrible. This is one of the reasons parody series, like Austin Powers and Scary Movie, tend to do well in theaters alongside the very movies they mock.
Second Life has unwittingly set itself up for disruption
How does this relate to Second Life? As a self-proclaimed and marketed “metaverse”, Second Life raises the bar on its claim to immersion. Expectations are high of an experience that parallels real life. With banks, land ownership, and many other institutions that exist in “meatspace”, Second Life succeeds in delivering on many of its goals. However, by attempting to parallel real-life and create a immersive experience, Second Life has unwittingly set itself up for disruption. As immersion increases, toleration of absurdity or surrealism proportionally decreases. Even more damning is that in games, users are much more disillusioned when confronted with the absurd, because they have put their own time and energy into constructing the medium. In movies, one is not an active participant, and therefore has much less to lose from the surreal.
Before discussing the effects this has on griefing, let’s talk about Second Life’s internal workings. Often, the main complaint about Second Life is not about griefing, but of its poor technical performance. Its graphics are relatively low-end for today’s standards, but what annoys many residents (and would-be residents) is its tendency to regularly spawn immersion-breaking events such as avatar corruption, lag, and inventory loss. I have even heard comments bemoaning the lack of free airspace in Second Life: users attempt to fly around the mainland, universally slamming into crimson parcel blocking forcefields. These issues are a good cross-section of immersion complaints, and while they are not entirely reliant on the concept (any gamer will complain about lag or losing his hard-won items), temporary loss of immersion tends to exacerbate the problem.
even mediocre events of immersion-breaking are generally considered serious -– at least in-world
The unusual severity of the response to griefing, then, is simply a consequence of Second Life’s requirement of immersion. W-HAT’s absurd antics such as running through sims in giant pirate boats are only mildly disruptive: their main ‘punch’ is that of ruining immersion. Many on the “outside” get a kick out of this sort of griefing, and those who take it to even its barest minimum (for example, dressing up in silly clothes) can sometimes be classified as griefers. Pixeleen Mistral sent me an anecdote via e-mail, wherein she discussed her venture to a SL golf course, at one point dropping quite a few scripted golf balls instead of just one. The eventual result was that they all took off at once, angering the golf course’s owner. Reading about these events may seem humorous, but to some, classification of these events as “griefing” is prime facie.
Consider the following truncated discussion[1] in the chat log of the “Philanthropy and Virtual Worlds: Considering Civil Liberties” event, which took place in the teen Second Life grid (where, incidentally, PN does not even operate):
—
Anthony Pomeray: Did she say PN, or PM?
Nexii Malthus: PN!?
Nexii Malthus: Griefer group
Nexii Malthus: Very horrible
Nexii Malthus: They are the cause of this debate i bet
Nexii Malthus: they cause a lot of grief to avatars and sims
…
Anthony Pomeray: Maybe the PN group could be labeled as terrorists…….
Nexii Malthus: they for example put up horrible grief and spam that make all ye customers run away
Anthony Pomeray: Do you think the PN group could be labeled as terrorists?
…
Nexii Malthus: They have done a lot of grief and caused harm to simulators which has caused them to crash
Alex Harbinger: In the future, I can see VR crimes being treated IRL. Although that’ll take a while v.v
Anthony Pomeray: Yes, I believe that they can be considered legally criminal because they are denying right to businesses and people.
Nexii Malthus: they intrude on events, large or small
Nexii Malthus: Denial of service is a crime
Anthony Pomeray: If they prey on people weaker on them that can be considered criminal, and even terrorist activity.
—
Note here something rather interesting. While much of the discussion could be explained away by claiming that the participants are ignorant of the definition of a “terrorist” or a “terrorist action”, we see here that real life definitions of quite serious events are being used quite trivially, attempting to expand the term to include putting up “spam” and scaring away “customers”. What would motivate one to compare the actions of a group that drops cubic objects with flying Mario particles in the sky to, of all things, terrorism? While the PN attempt much more disruptive actions than “putting up horrible grief” (I assume this would refer to particle spam, for example), here we see a throw-away use of a real life concept to explain a event which is clearly much less serious.
the traditional model of internet trolling does not fit many griefing groups
It would be silly of us to actually believe Anthony Pomeray views these events as equivalent to real-life terrorism. Terrorism has been defined many times by many different experts in political science and other fields, none of them even remotely similar to Pomeray’s. While I debate semantics in the work that inspired this article, it is unnecessary here: the usage of the term is most likely just for shock value. My point is that even mediocre events of immersion-breaking are generally considered serious events – at least in-world. Out of Second Life, however, such events are found generally humorous by those who watch them on video-sharing websites or see them in media like blogs, because those people do not have any immersion, or investment into the “world”.
In summary, the traditional model of internet trolling does not fit many “griefers” or griefing groups. There is little good news for those who want to get rid of them forever: Second Life’s own attempts in creating a virtual “world” rather than a implicitly less immersive game creates a environment where griefers can do the most damage. This is hardly a new concept – the PN, along with W-HAT and others, have repeated the ‘Second Life is not serious business’ mantra for a long time. Only now, though, can that concept be explained in concrete terms. The only prescription is to perceive griefing events in the manner in which they are often intended: to poke fun at the “metaverse” and its institutions. Users of online communities must step out of immersion and judge griefing events on their own merits – for their own sake.
[1] Global Kids’ Digital Media Initiative, “TSL transcript from “Philanthropy and Virtual Worlds: Considering Civil Liberties” event”, http://www.holymeatballs.org/2008/01/below_is_the_transcript_from.html
Sarah
Feb 18th, 2008
I firmly believe in most of the above, but I think that there’s a missing link here that prevents its completeness–SRS BZNSS is not, IMO, simply a function of the game-vs-metaverse dichotomy, but is rather a product of it *and* the influx of Stupid Normal People. Think about it: the old-timers on a board, or usenet, or what-have-you don’t generally respond to trolling. They know better, they know that the troll feeds upon the psychic energy generated by his/her work. Conversely, there’s always several noobs waiting to pounce upon the troll, comparing it to Hitler, accusing it of serious federal crimes, etc. These are the Hapless Yeomen of the internet, and they have virtually invaded and conquered SL over the past year and a half. I believe that the resultant cultural shift is the source of Serious Business–it’s not that these people are railing against the violation of their immersion so much as they’re monkeys defending a territory from other monkeys (these are the same people, btw, who call the police when a neighbour’s dog runs through their yard). In addition, these late-adopters typically come from backgrounds which do not foster an appreciation for absurdism in any form, nor are they capable of communicating in any sort of non-combative form, because they are mostly slaggy post-industrial Morlocks. This is why I’ve grown to admire organized griefers as more of a Home Guard resisting an invasion force, than as terrorists. I can only hope that one day the pool will be, truly, closed.
You have got to be kidding!
Feb 18th, 2008
Bullshit.
Running through sims wearing Pirate ships might be briefly amusing but crashing sims and preventing peope from enjoying themselves is just simple bullying.
You are no different to the bully in the (RL) sandpit who likes to kick down my daughter’s sand castle and throw sand in her face.
To attempt to justify yourself with “Oh it’s just a sand castle. She shouldn’t take it so seriously” completely misses the point.
And the point is you like to ruin other people’s games just to give yourself some enjoyment (lolz) from their being upset.
You are just simple, garden-variety bullies.
dandellion Kimban
Feb 19th, 2008
Griefing main “power” lies in different levels griefer and victim are living. It is a strike from wothout victim’s boundaries. Problem is that differences of ways one can live own second life is the main virtue of second life ( http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2007/and-one-more-thing-that-makes-us-special ). That is why griefing is not an attack on a person or sim but on the whole system. Also that is why it is so hard to answer the griefing attack ( http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2007/how-to-kill-a-griefer ).
Cocoanut Koala
Feb 19th, 2008
Griefers are simply people who not only play their own game, they insist others play it with them.
Degrees of immersion has nothing to do with it.
I don’t care if I’m in a video game, at the movies watching ANY movie, in my kitchen making taco salad, sitting on a park bench with a friend, or standing in line at the bank.
Whatever I am doing, I’m not going to look favorably upon someone who comes along and insists I stop and play their game with them instead.
Even children generally know better, or at least ask politely.
Suggesting that the “solution” is to “step out” of our own events and “judge the griefing events on their own merits” (ha) just begs the question.
It suggests that the problem of griefers wanting our attention will be solved by our dropping whatever we are doing and watching them.
Kinda self-serving, dontcha think?
coco
Greefin Oh
Feb 19th, 2008
*claps*, well written. I could not agree more with this thesis.
And the lesson here in this piece is: “A virtual “world” creates an environment where griefers can do the most damage”.
It’s essentially what I have been saying for the past 2 years. If people weren’t so involved in SL’s Immersion, there would be no griefers. I’m not saying that these people who take it seriously, aren’t allowed to. But on the same token, this is the number one reason why griefing exists. There is no right or wrong here.
My God, and the part about comparing griefers to terrorists is utterly embarrassing and laughable. To think there are people in this “game” who would go as far to say that Little Johnny with the Poop Shooting Gun is on the same exact level as Osama Bin Laden, is scary. I sometimes wonder if these people, were the same kids in high school who ratted every guy out in the hallway for throwing paper airplanes at their head. I’m not supporting bullying, but come on now.
Anyways I think this article made some good points. But it won’t bring peace, nor will it change minds. There are those who are in love with their fakelife. And then there are those who enjoy making a mockery out of you for it.
And then there is me, who’s been on both sides of the fence. And I don’t care. I prefer to immerse myself in a tall mug of beer at the pub.
. If there’s an asshole I have to deal with, I’d rather deal with him face to face.
Mooty = Angel
Feb 19th, 2008
So, Mooty, was YOUR immersive griefing experience broken when you went emo butthurt that your followers started to believe that you were Angel, such that you had to out yourself as weeaboo Lance Johnson to “prove” you weren’t the Harry Potterish Angel Fluffy?
BTW: you dont know the definition of terrorism. The use of the word “griefing” to describe what you’ve done is a term that actually attempts to minimize the impact of it, as if its “just” some virgin teens living in their parents basements with no lives exerting their sexual frustrations on others.
Kalel Venkman
Feb 19th, 2008
tl;dr
anon
Feb 19th, 2008
coco: I’m not making a judgement call on “your game”, and in fact I think you’ve missed the point of the article (or at least we agree more than you think). I’m saying that “your game” is fundamentally inconsistent with a griefer’s game, just like you pointed out, and bringing the immersion of yours down to the same level is what pisses you off. Like I stated, griefing cannot be “stopped” because the game that the PN, W-HAT, whatever play is so different. The suggestion to view the events as humorous if possible and at least from an unbiased viewpoint is only that of a outsider’s “it’s going to be there, learn to deal with it” perspective.
You can get pissed off or you can share in the lols while getting pissed off – I don’t really care either way because I’m still going to laugh at it. There’s a difference between a “solution” and a “prescription”. My “prescription” was to roll with the punches lest you go absolutely insane like Prok and start branding everyone as Leninists.
Sarah: yeah, and that’s definitely a good point. I think summing up all of a community as one part of a dichotomy and then a disruptive force on the other is indeed missing a lot. It almost seems counter-intuitive to think of “oldbies” as the ones that would be more grounded in a “live and let live” philosophy of absurdism but that does seem to be the case with a lot of communities, even PN could be counted among ‘em. Newer members of communities often will take the community’s professed goals to an extreme in an attempt to “fit in” and not understand the meaning behind those goals or how much the community really stands behind them. I think we can in part blame the Linden hype machine for making so much of Second Life in the media that perhaps the “metaverse” concept is pushed to its extreme, and that’s where we see the need for maximum immersion when before the bar was set quite a bit below that.
wtf
Feb 19th, 2008
oh lawd
yeah, i sure would be way less annoyed if somebody suddenly jumped in front of my face and threw stuff at me while yelling shit during a cinema visit than when somebody sends e-dongs after me in SL, because SL is more immersive
…wait, what?
Hal
Feb 19th, 2008
My suggestion would be that SL moves to an access system much more like the web – if you visit a website as an anonymous user you don’t expect to be given the facility to alter it. On the next level, if you sign-up to a site, by giving them some personal info, you might get access to their email system or get some free webspace. Finally if you subscribe with payments to a site you expect full access to their service.
Second Life has to move to this model, we all understand how it works already and it would be non-confusing to new users. It might work like this: you create an anonymous free account for SL (these must continue to be available!) you get unlimited access to SL but have NO build facilities at all, except to wear and adjust attachments. You can’t upload or download content, build objects or write scripts.
If you verify your ID you get all the features for free as now. If you pay a sub you get to own mainland and a stipend, same as now. It would be (virtually) impossible to hack because the client doesn’t manage these permissions – the login server and sims manage them and the systems are basically all in place already.
The only difference is that unverified accounts would have full access to SL but NO build facilities. I know this wouldn’t stop all griefing but it would cut out a lot of it. It would also stop a lot of the theft in SL – unverified accounts won’t be able to upload stolen textures anymore and if a verified account does it it’s traceable to a real human in RL. The best defence against theft will always be the threat of capture. It’s basically a Resident and Visitor model and it would keep SL open to all but more protected from some of the total ***wits that plague us now.
Sofian Mannonen
Feb 19th, 2008
Second Life is like real life, people are seeking different objectives.
There are those who want to take it seriously, and there are those who want to have fun.
In the middle there are an infinity of nuances, for example those who want to have fun seriously and those who seriously want to have fun.
As I already had the opportunity to write in Prok’blog, are griefed only those who attract griefers (of course my comment was pure bullshit) like Prok himself, surely because he is taking Second Life too seriously.
Personally I was never greatly griefed and I always gently mocked those who wanted to tease me; this always had the result to immediately stop the griefing (but maybe I never encountered ‘bad griefers’, I am not very old in this world)
Crashing a sim is another topic, and even if it is not terrorism to my point of view, I must admit that it is an unpleasant behavior that should be sanctioned.
Marc Woebegone
Feb 19th, 2008
Since becoming bored with land, I discovered griefing, and find it is the only real fun about participating in second life….. the ultimate griefing game.
Pie Psaltery
Feb 19th, 2008
Why griefing?
No real mystery is it? You need only look at the post above mine; a bored child with no goals other then to amuse himself by harassing others.
“The only real fun” he can find is in being a bully. He can’t decide what to do, so he jumps up and down in front of you hoping for your attention, and if he doesn’t get it he’ll just kick you in the shins for ignoring him. Figure out how to fix THAT problem in the real world, specifically what to do with bored children begging for attention, and your virtual world will be better. Immerse yourself in that.
Anonymous 101
Feb 19th, 2008
It’s true that griefing will never stop. Anyone that believes it can happen needs a serious reality check because it’s no different than saying someday there will be no criminals in the world. The fact is that some people like to bend the rules or break them. It’s entertaining. Where this comes into play in SL, is what was stated before. Some people see SL as a game, nothing more, and some take SL quite seriously because they’re trying to make something for themselves or out of themselves.
I see some things that are pretty amusing and hilarious to watch that most would consider griefing. A costumed guy at some club with a library of gestures can be entertaining. But when the purpose of the fun is to ruin the other’s fun, that’s when someone needs to step in to put a stop to it.
There’s really two types of griefers. Lame griefers, and organized griefers. The lame griefers are the ones that crash sims and spam. Or simply act annoying. They’re the people that are the bullies and probably some school nerd that was picked on too often and now is seeking revenge in a place where real life consquences don’t apply. The organized griefers are more thoughful in their approach. They’re the ones that attacked the John Edwards campaign or they’re the ones that developed the Linden theft system. People that do organized griefing have a set purpose in why they do that. It’s not to attack the people of SL per say (although the people of SL tend to be the victims anyhow), but more or less attack the system. Those are the griefers I give a little more credit to, but also the most difficult to deal with especially if you’re a victim.
I don’t side with Griefers. I never have. But there’s nothing that can be done to ever rid SL of griefers permanently. Like criminals, they will always find a way. And for the rest of us who take SL a little more seriously or simply do not like griefers, there’s many things we can do to stop as much griefing as possible, or simply make it more difficult for these griefers to grief. Help out your fellow neighbor, learn to anti-grief, lock down your land, and don’t be afraid to submit Action Reports or call upon an anti-griefer organization. Just a few examples.
The largest problem I see is not so much with griefers, but more with whiners. If you have griefer problems, do something about it! Whining only empowers griefers to do more of the same. Fight fire with fire. Heck, join an anti-griefer group to help them take on the griefers for example. The more people stand together for a cause, the more that cause will take shape and become a reality.
And you anti-griefer groups need to stop competing against one another and join forces together for the same cause. If you’re not willing to do that, then your anti-griefing is more for a popularity contest than it is for any “justice” in SL.
Lastly…for you griefers, really, honestly, get a life. If you spend massive amounts of time griefing just for fun, it’s time to visit your real life again and come to terms with reality. Most people come on SL to do something other than cause problems. So leave them alone. Really…get a life.
Melissa Yeuxdoux
Feb 19th, 2008
I’m reminded of the point someone once made that PETA targets women wearing fur because, unlike targeting bikers for wearing leather, there’s little risk. Griefers are nothing more than bullies, and no amount of rationalization will change that.
I would love to see griefers try to interrupt RL sports events to get fans to not take it so seriously… say, Army vs. Navy or OU vs. Texas.
Spankubux
Feb 19th, 2008
“Since becoming bored with land, I discovered griefing, and find it is the only real fun about participating in second life….. the ultimate griefing game.”
You should try moving on to thievery in real life. You’ve already had some Second Life practice.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 19th, 2008
Griefing is like terrorism in its nature and dynamics, although vastly different in scale — and in remedy.
The vast differences between synthetic and real life can’t obscure the similarities in the nature of griefing and the nature of terrorism.
Both delight in the misfortune of others. Both spring from malice, vengeance, and a desire to have instant power over other people — to terrorize them. Both unleash attacks on innocent bystanders unrelated to their actual beefs or presumed targets.
Both claim their means are merely in pursuit of a higher goal. Both are informed by a nihilist ideology. Both seek to cause maximum devastation for minimum resource expenditure. Both are cunning and malicious.
Both are paradoxical and unreasonable and unpredictable. Both lie, engage in elaborate Leninist propaganda, and claim they have reformed or stopped when they haven’t. Both seek to distract attention from themselves and falsely place the blame on others. Both have no mercy, conscience, or remorse.
Both cause people to argue about their nature and the necessary response, enabling them to grief yet again by splitting communities. Both are not stoppable by conventional means.
Griefing is Leninism because it says the end justifies the means, and that people can be forcibly made better or happier by someone forcibly doing something they think is good for the other (weaning them from immersion). Griefers are heavily ideological, and bound by a cult that says only they can decide how people relate to the Internet or virtual worlds.
Griefers are merely the latest rendition of the jackboot stamping on the face. There’s nothing redeeming about them, nothing educational or interesting about them, nothing fascinating about their emergent behaviour — and Julian Dibbell is one himself.
SqueezeOne Pow
Feb 19th, 2008
This was a pretty good article. However, it neglects the social dynamic of the griefers. This article implies that they are fully functional people with no social handicaps that strive to point out the social handicaps of the people that buy too deeply into the “immersion” of SL.
The truth is both groups are essentially suffering from similar issues. They just deal with it in completely opposite ways. Some pretend to be legitimate business people or play “serious” house and have “serious” relationships to compensate and some do everything they can to ruin the others’ escape in order to compensate for their own issues. Either way it’s compensating for inadequacies(sp?) they feel.
Like what was said in a comment above, the ones that don’t seem to be compensating so much are the ones that don’t respond when being attacked and don’t put a second thought into it when they hear about it happening. I guess it boils down to what they’re actually doing and why they do it, though.
I think the analogy of griefers being “terrorists” is inaccurate.* They’re more like vandals or “taggers” or whatever you want to call them. In my younger days I used to hang out with a bunch of grafitti kids that would go out and put their name up on any corporate or government building (or just wherever sometimes) in weird letters that no one outside of their “community” could understand. Some also did legitimate art in an attempt to add some flavor to what they saw as a steril environment.
They were all convinced that they were doing a social service of pointing out the inadequacies of the “system” around them and letting everyone know they were “immersed” in a lie and were actually miserable if they didn’t appreciate the grafitti. I grew up around some of these people and I eventually saw that many of them were just as miserable and socially inept and this was how they compensated.
I think it would be good for people to start looking at it from the perspective that these guys are vandals and not terrorists. Terrorism usually always has a socio-political motivation. Vandals just do it to feel like they matter and have made an impression somewhere in a world they can’t relate to.
Like I said, good article overall, though!
*FUN FACT: In a recent article and subsequent comments, Prokofy stated that SL griefers are worse than RL terrorists because griefers affect more people directly than terrorists.
NinaA
Feb 19th, 2008
Yeah you losers, don’t log into SL and you then can’t be griefed. *snort* *snort* *snort*
Jahar Aabye
Feb 19th, 2008
There are a few fairly serious flaws with this essay. The most obvious, of course, is the fact that immersion is what sells SL to a lot of people, and motivates them to pay real-life money for land or estates in a virtual world. Making SL less “immersive” (whatever that might mean, definitions seem lacking in this essay as well) would likely seriously curtail the participation levels. And after all, without some level of immersion as a fully-functional world, SL would be just another IRC chat room.
But the emphasis on the issue of “immersion” obscures a larger point:
Virtually (no pun intended) all of the content in Second Life is user-created. The fact that users are willing to expend significant effort in creating this content is a major reason for the success of Second Life. When users have spent time and money creating content in Second Life, they expect to be able to enjoy that content with like-minded individuals. Part of the reason that Second Life is adults only is not just because of sexually explicit content, but because Second Life requires an adult level of maturity rather than simply being disruptive.
When people go into Second Life with no purpose aside from intentionally disrupting other people’s experience, they act as though the world of Second Life were static and exists solely for their entertainment. As such, they are no different than spoiled adolescents who firmly believe that money and cars and food are things that mommy and daddy provide, rather than being the products of hard work.
To use the golf course example from the essay, someone (most likely several people) had put in a lot of hard work (not to mention a large amount of real-life money in tiers fees) to create a golf course in Second Life. They bought and paid tier on the land, they terraformed it, and designed and built a golf course, and most likely built and scripted objects to allow the game to be played.
To an adult, this represents the product of hard work and dedication, and while golf is not something I personally enjoy, I can respect the efforts of those who built such a thing. To puerile adolescents, this is all irrelevant. They see only people on a golf course who take their course far too seriously, and see the golf course as being public property that they can futz around with and disrupt as they see wish. They are not breaking “immersion.” The so-called immersion exists only in the adolescents’ eyes. They are disrespecting and disrupting the enjoyment of the golf course by people who put a lot of effort into creating and maintaining it.
That being said, the unspoken conclusion is also that griefers are “contributing” to Second Life in the only manner that they are capable. Lacking the actual skill required to build, script, animate, design, etc, and lacking the money to hire those who can, they have nothing of value to offer to Second Life, and deal with the resulting insecurity by disrupting the experience for everyone else around them.
I feel kinda sorry for them, actually.
Goldfish
Feb 19th, 2008
I prefer to treat griefing like the weather.
“Ah, I see today is mostly laggy with a 15% chance of Jell-owned cubes. Tomorrow will clear up, with 9 fps and occasional scattered Mario particles.”
or
“Hurricane Longcat is passing over the grid today, sim crashes and high lag are expected. Residents are advised to evacuate in the following regions:”
Penance Sautereau
Feb 19th, 2008
I’ve never understood griefers who convince themselves they’re on some noble crusade to free people from immersion. Because the griefers themselves don’t, or are unable to, develop an emotional attatchment to the virtual worlds they play in, they seem to universally believe those of us who can are weak, delusional or just stupid, and that we need them to disrupt our online time to remind us it’s not real.
That’s one point I’ll agree with Prok on. While I disagree that it equates to Terrorism, since no one dies or gets beheaded by children on camera, or gets blown up in their church or mosque, etc. People just get hurt emotionally.
But it does seem Leninesque to devote that much time and energy to making complete strangers miserable because you think you’re crusading to save them from feeling things you can’t.
There are of course people who feel too much online and need to take a breather every so often, myself included. But since the only way for example, Person A in Chicago being in love with and having a cyber-sexual relationship with Person B in Manchester across the pond, actually hurts a griefer, is because the griefer doesn’t understand the capability to have those feelings on the internet and thus it somehow hurts them in a way I can’t begin to fathom.
Yet it never occurs to them that the other people may not be the problem, that the problem may be their own IN-ability to relate like that makes them feel somehow deficient, and they turn this deficiency into a crusade to harass people who have the capacity to feel that they lack, and then convince themselves that being a bitter jerk, and devoting time and energy that could be easily spent doing productive things to upsetting strangers.
They almost universally fail to see the irony that BY devoting this much time and energy to emotionally assaulting complete strangers in a virtual world, they’ve become as obsessed and immersed as those they attack under the delusion of trying to save them from themselves. They universally dismiss this fact as just someone bawing rather than stop and wonder if maybe that’s a valid point. (Well, almost universally. I know at least one former asshole griefer who finally stopped to wonder what harm he could be causing to the people behind the keyboard).
There’s a simple rule I live by when it comes to what I do online. One of my SL loves has even seen a tv ad campaign to this effect where she lives. It’s a simple rule that anyone who isn’t a total asshole to begin with should be able to follow.
If you wouldn’t say it or do it to a stranger in real life, don’t do it online. There are real people behind those pixelated faces, with real feelings. Just because you can’t see them cry in real life doesn’t make your hurting them any less an act of bullying than if you had done it in real life, because either SL or RL, you hurt another human being emotionally to give yourself a brief moment of joy behind which to hide from your own failings. And telling them to just not log in if they don’t want to put up with your abuse is just further proof of the bully mentality.
It’s not terrorism, but it IS harassment, emotional abuse, and just plain juvenile. If you go online solely to disrupt someone else’s experience so you can laugh when they get upset, the problem isn’t really with them. It’s with you. And you clearly need to step back and take a breath yourself.
A griefer and an overly immersed player are just two branches of the same tree. Both have invested time and energy into acheiving an emotional goal in a virtual world. The only difference is the Griefer has to hurt others to achieve it.
So who’s really the bad guy here?
Prokofy Neva
Feb 19th, 2008
Jahar Aabye, you have a good essay there, and I tend to agree with what you said: they are not disrupting immersion, they are disrupting people’s work and people’s creative collaboration and socializing together with the use of immersion, and they are doing it because they want power over people, and have found that this disruption gives it to them.
I disagree that this is the only way they can participate, however, as some are skilled scripters and texturers. They chose to put their arts to this nefarious purpose.
Greefin Oh
Feb 19th, 2008
Eh at the end of the day, you’re all freaking nerds. 1 with a good sense of humor, and the other who has none at all. Spank you, come again =D
Razrcut Brooks
Feb 19th, 2008
What is interesting is that I would bet that most SL residents have never even heard of the PN..or any organized griefers. Before I began reading the Herald, I did not either. Sure I had seen various forms of behavior that I always had assumed were just “newbies” trying to get attention-or figured they haven’t learned how to behave in a virtual world. I would smile and not give a rip.
Learning that there were organized groups (from reading the Herald) amused me and I was surprised. Seemed to be a waste of time but to each their own. I firmly believe that SL does not have a griefing problem. I explore all over mainland and rarely see griefers. This issue is a Herald-generated “problem”.
Yes, some sims briefly get crashed, Cosby Cubes occaisionally fall, chat gets spammed ,and INVISI-MEGA PRIMS get dropped in a club causing everyone to flounder and float upwards. (my personal favorite to see as its hilarious)-but these events are so-uncommon. This issue is only a “problem” to those that believe the hype created by the Herald. No doubt, a few will post below this post that they have been victims and we will get to read example after example..But thats it..only a few examples. Most club owners, parcel owners, sim owners, estate managers, mall owners know the steps to take to limit griefers (land settings, ban/eject, mute , etc..)–so the examples we hear about concern victims who do not know how to take these simple measures.
As a whole, I find griefing funny except when racist comments and actions are a part of it. I have no desire to grief as I think it is a waste of time but they are not terrorists…cultish, but not terrorists.
anonymous
Feb 19th, 2008
Griefing will stop when people realize how non-threatening it really is and realize that this isnt serious business.
The only serious business is reality, and even it’s laughable 90% of the time.
Raideur Ng
Feb 19th, 2008
You have been banned from this land by the Estate Owner. Your attempts to be annoying have failed. Try again: Yes/No
Be on the ball, show no mercy. Restrict your land if nessesary. Griefers dont like it when landowners give them a constant and prompt smackdown. Griefing is not very disruptive or effective when either people are around to care, and ban them, or are simply not around, and don’t care.
Supercool Sautereau
Feb 19th, 2008
Griefers are only mildly annoying. Most of the grid never sees them. Most of them have little cagers or orbiter staff that it is very easy to get away from or defend against. You can solve the problem 99 times out of 100 by banning them from the land. The worst stuff is cleaned up by the Lindens reasonably fast. I’m not sticking up for them, but they cannot do too much to you assuming you control some land. If you don’t, they still can’t cause too much trouble unless you’re in a sandbox, which is chaotic by nature and fun as a result.
The ones who have better griefing tools are not stupid either. You can conceivably say they can’t build or socialize, but they can definitely script. And you throw around the word Leninist like its nothing. It means more than just “bully,” even if you despise its true meaning.
Calling griefers terrorists is the probably the stupidest remark ever made on this whole site. Terrorists kill people. Our avatars never have, do not, and never will equal real life people. If you think they do, you have a psychological complex and need to get some sun. Has nobody who takes these games so seriously ever heard of the guy who shot himself after losing some game money, and then being rejected by a female character, in the game Everquest? God forbid the Second Life grid ever go down for good. It’s plain ridiculous to equate virtual reality with actual reality, and it doesn’t end well.
Cocoanut Koala
Feb 19th, 2008
—–
“coco: I’m not making a judgement call on ‘your game’, and in fact I think you’ve missed the point of the article (or at least we agree more than you think). I’m saying that ‘your game’ is fundamentally inconsistent with a griefer’s game, just like you pointed out, and bringing the immersion of yours down to the same level is what pisses you off.”
—–
The difference is, I don’t insist the griefer play my game.
And what is so immersionist about my game, anyway? I’m sitting there building houses. Someone comes along and thinks I should pay attention to him, instead of building houses, and that somehow means I’m being too immersed?
I think it is arguable that the griefer’s game is the more “immersive” one. More to the point, though, he can’t play it by himself, can he? He has to have an unwilling victim. It’s not ENOUGH to simply goof around with friends. He’s got to have that element of harming others.
The griefer doesn’t bring my level of immersion “down” – he brings my ability to concentrate on the task at hand down. So that we can both concentrate on HIS task at hand.
Ditto if I’m having a conversation with a friend. How is it that that is any more “immersive” than someone suddenly coming along to play shoot em up games with us? (Even though we don’t want to play.)
Ditto anything. Immersion doesn’t have anything to do with it.
—–
Like I stated, griefing cannot be “stopped” because the game that the PN, W-HAT, whatever play is so different. The suggestion to view the events as humorous if possible and at least from an unbiased viewpoint is only that of a outsider’s “it’s going to be there, learn to deal with it” perspective.
“You can get pissed off or you can share in the lols while getting pissed off – I don’t really care either way because I’m still going to laugh at it.”
——
Why would I share in the lolz at my own expense? If someone comes along to me in the grocery store and knocks over my cart, I’m not going to share in the lolz.
That you get a laugh out of knocking over someone’s shopping cart is your problem, not mine.
It’s astounding hubris, really: Griefers not only do things to disrupt other people’s enjoyment, they actually then have the gall to try to tell those people how they should react to it.
coco
The Fire of Delight
Feb 19th, 2008
I ALMOST tl;dr’d.
Goldfish:
I seriously lol’d hard at you comment. Thanks for brightening my day, whoever you are.
Prok:
“Griefing is Lenninism.”
LMAO, who the hell are you trying to kid you madwoman? This is almost as absurd as when you said that you were sure that allmost all “griefers” were “young asian males”.
“Julian Dibbel is one himself.”
Hoo boy, you really need to get your facts straight. Yes, he has a PN forums account, yes, he did have a channel on our IRC server, but he was a reporter for wired magazine. In case you failed to notice, and it seems you did, most of his story was about the GoonSwarm Alliance from the EvE Online MMO. So if he belongs to either one of our groups fo’ rlz(he doesn’t), the probability of him beeing a Goon on EvE is higher.
“Both delight in the misfortune of others. Both spring from malice, vengeance, and a desire to have instant power over other people — to terrorize them. Both unleash attacks on innocent bystanders unrelated to their actual beefs or presumed targets.”
lolwut? I didn’t join the PN to have instant power over anyone. I joined the PN to help remove furfaggotry from SL, have some good lulz, and code cool things, in that order.
So, do I unleash attacks on innocent bystanders? All the time! However, you seem to have missed the fact that when a hostage is decapitated, he dies, when a prisoner is tortured, he suffers.
When a sim is crashed, you log back on.
“ZOMG TEH PN R SPRED LENNINIST PROPOGANDA!!!!1″
No, we dont.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 19th, 2008
Long time no ‘see’, Mudkips. This is a great article, I must say – it really beats the shit out of what normally gets posted up here.
You have, young sir, hit the nail on the head. Dead center. It IS the breaking of immersion that delivers that rage-inducing punch that groups like PN and co seek.
Now… Prokofy.
“claim they have reformed or stopped when they haven’t.”
This is something that has always plagued terrorist groups – I’ll use the IRA as an example: More often than not, when the core leadership or the central majority of ‘terrorist’ group claims to reform or cease activities, the group will fracture and members who still want to fight will create their own groups like ‘The Real IRA’ – a group who continued acts of hostility after the cease fire agreement, or quietly work on their own.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 19th, 2008
“The use of the word “griefing” to describe what you’ve done is a term that actually attempts to minimize the impact of it, as if its “just” some virgin teens living in their parents basements with no lives exerting their sexual frustrations on others.”
…I’m still debating with myself over whether the irony in this comment is intentional or not.
“The difference is, I don’t insist the griefer play my game.”
Are you sure about that? Last I checked, anyone that didn’t conform to the way YOU want YOUR virtual world to be got pretty much stalked and harassed and badmouthed. Prok doesn’t liek having a giant fridge in Ravenglass. What does she do? Badmouth the owner and put up a stupid voting machine beside it asking what should be done about ‘grief builds’. As if she has the right to tell people what sort of building they can and cannot place on THEIR land.
There’s not an inch of ‘griefing’ in that fridge. It’s just a fridge. It’s a nice, creative, unique structure – unlike the thousands upon thousands of wooden houses and European castles that are all over SL.
anon
Feb 19th, 2008
various people who miss the point: There is a difference between social interaction and creating another “virtual world” with equivalency to the real one. If you treat SL like MSN or a 3D lego set this article is not aimed at you – your anger at griefers is most likely, as pointed out, simply a disruption of normalcy. But those who attempt to *live in* a virtual world tend to respond *more* to griefing because of the reasons I pointed out. I’m not trying to say that this is the only way a griefer can piss you off, I’m saying this is why they have such an impact here. Hurf durf.
Razrcut Brooks
Feb 19th, 2008
“I ALMOST tl;dr’d.” ??? What does this mean? Someone explain.
I pretty much understand the PN lingo…their members (all 12 of them)…have definitely come up with some wacky vernacular. However, “tl;dr’d” has alway me perplexed me. If someone could elucidate the aforementioned phrase for me , I would be most greatful. Gracias.
Also, why hasn’t our good friend D3adlyCod3c weighed in on this article? I have never met him but I like that dude. He has risen above the madness of the PN- yet has not openly criticized them. He has either not logged on yet to see the PN article— or he has already posted above under a fake name.
PS: There is an urban legend spreading that PROK=CODEC. Same person in RL. SHhhhh , please keep this quiet.
Trudeethreedee
Feb 19th, 2008
I think I am starting to get it now.
Uri is letting the griefers have a turn at the helm so he can study that or write a book about it, or something.
————-
~Coco~ said:
It’s astounding hubris, really: Griefers not only do things to disrupt other people’s enjoyment, they actually then have the gall to try to tell those people how they should react to it.
Bingo. I couldn’t agree more, and they know this. It’s how the game is set up. They can’t lose that way. And because they know this, yet can’t come right out and admit it, they have to constantly playact a part in the big shewww. So yeah, who are the people who are too immersed again?
————-
~Jahar Aabye~ said:
They are not breaking “immersion.” The so-called immersion exists only in the adolescents’ eyes. They are disrespecting and disrupting the enjoyment of the golf course by people who put a lot of effort into creating and maintaining it.
Thank you for making that excellent point, Jahar. I am sure though, that shortly, some of these little comedians will be dancing around for us, telling us how it’s just not true, and how it’s all our fault.
————-
~Penance Sautereau~ said:
They almost universally fail to see the irony that BY devoting this much time and energy to emotionally assaulting complete strangers in a virtual world, they’ve become as obsessed and immersed as those they attack under the delusion of trying to save them from themselves.
Yes, but again, you’ll never get them to admit this, because most of them are cowards with esteem issues which they compensate for by immersing themselves in this imaginary world where they ‘know’ what’s good and bad for other people, and are here to pass judgment, by posturing visibly, in front of their friends, using basic, good old fashioned grade school bullying techniques. Something most people outgrow by the time they hit 17 or 18 years of age — though with the way parents seem to coddle kids these days, it’s no wonder that some of them think they have the world all figured out by age 18. Talk about delusional and overly immersed — immersed in overblown senses of enlightenment and entitlement — especially with regard to how other adults choose to spend their free time.
Maybe most of these griefers really are 15 or 16?
That would explain a LOT.
WitnessX
Feb 19th, 2008
“Mooty = Angel”
Sorry IntLibber, but you failed at being clever, though your statement was, as always, absolutely hilarious. You imply that PN are “some virgin teens living in their parents basements with no lives exerting their sexual frustrations on others” but you forget the fact that were it not for your “acquisition” of thousands of dollars from your ailing father’s bank accounts, you would have been bankrupted months ago. Pot meet kettle.
The Fire of Delight
Feb 19th, 2008
Razrcut:
FYI: TL;DR = Too Long Didn’t Read
CalendarGrrl
Feb 20th, 2008
“This is one of the reasons parody series, like Austin Powers and Scary Movie, tend to do well in theaters alongside the very movies they mock.”
False example. The difference here being, you can choose to watch the “serious” movie without the “parody” movie butting in and interrupting.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 20th, 2008
“I pretty much understand the PN lingo…their members (all 12 of them)…have definitely come up with some wacky vernacular. However, “tl;dr’d” has alway me perplexed me. If someone could elucidate the aforementioned phrase for me , I would be most greatful. Gracias.”
Even Urbandictionary would have turned this one up for you.
“tl;dr” is short for “Too long; didn’t read.”
Therefore, “I almost tl;dr’d” translates to “I almost felt that this article was too long to bother reading, but I read it anyway.”
Harold C Turner
Feb 20th, 2008
Yes those PN and all those dirty anonymous folk are terrorists and communists and jews and lenninists.
Marc Woebegone
Feb 20th, 2008
I love griefing….. LOL. Griefing in SL is perfect b/c so many of you absurd SLers take SL so seriously…. omg! What fun! Yes, jump up an down, and then put a 10x10x10 block on your head, or orbit someone in the middle of cartoon sex… lol…. or learn how to crash a sim… that’s exactly what it’s there for. I love it! And so do you!
Marc Woebegone
Feb 20th, 2008
In fact, I love griefing so much now, that I’LL PAY 100L TO ANY GRIEFER THAT SENDS ME IN GAME A PHOTO OF THEM GRIEFING SOMEONE ELSE W/SOME COMMENT BACK FROM THE GRIEFED YELLING AT THE GRIEFER!!! AND…. 1,000L TO THE BEST GRIEFER PHOTO EACH MONTH… MAYBE EVEN MORE DEPENDING ON HOW WELL THE GRIEFED HAS BEEN GRIEFED… and of course I have a hit list… anyone that sends me a photo of Profky Neva’s avatar being seriously griefed, I’ll pay 1,000L. for as long as supplies last…. lol
Aya Pelous
Feb 20th, 2008
Denouncing any type of seriousness in Second Life is very laughable to the ones who don’t take it seriously. If you guys did not take Second Life Seriously, then why are you reading The Second Life herald and commenting with 4 -5 paragraphs?
Everyone has a degree of tolerance to griefers, there is no doubt about that, it’s the fact that we must deal with a immaturity 2348957356783568735 times a year is pretty ridiculous.
A griefer is not a terrorist unless he/she has political reasons to grief with objects, firepower etc etc…. Just there are assholes who make comments about how laughable everyones severity of Sl play is.
Personally I am here to have fun, if a griefer should come my way I will handle it accordingly to what I feel is right, not what other feels is right.
If you want to greif then go for it, if you want to have SL sex with strangers all over the place go for it, if you want to work in SL for some fake L’s then by all means go for it, just for shits sake….stop denouncing everyones SL time. We do what we want.
Cai Pirinha
Feb 20th, 2008
Really interesting and well written article, explains a lot.
I can see that Linden Lab is having an issue at some point with people deliberately trying to crash their servers, but I never understood why people are being bothered by griefing that much (your avatar get orbited, so what?). But then again, I also never understood why people are locking their doors in SL or using security systems…
Also, to all those that usually complain the loudest about how bad griefing is: How often are you _actually _getting _griefed? I’m spending a whole lot of time in places like sandboxes where pretty much anything goes, and even there I normally just work away on my stuff without really being disturbed by anybody.
The hole “big griefing problem” sounds a bit like a myth to me.
Corona
Feb 20th, 2008
Re M W’s ego-centric and selfish statement
pretty much what you would expect from the self confessed RL paedophiles of the PN.
The Voice of Reason
Feb 20th, 2008
Online griefers aren\’t terrorists unless they start inspiring terror (hence the name) in others, which would only happen if they also stalked their victims in RL. But that would never…oh wait, they HAVE done that. A number of times. :-/
Marc Woebegone
Feb 20th, 2008
I comment for the amusement of it… it amazes me that in a system with Xmillion declared registrants, and just a few thousand logging in now and then, and some few all the time, that just the comments of a few mean so much to themselves… lol… grief on! comrades in arms!
Darkfoxx
Feb 20th, 2008
Very interresting piece, but I dont agree that it is true for everyone that it’s the disruption of the immersion that causes them to respond negatively (at the very least) to griefing actions.
I personally can see the humor in griefing, and I understand why it’s so much fun to do, and why so many outsiders find greifing videos funny. I do as well, especially some of the comments following them usually. Maybe it’s because I know enough memes and such to catch the inside joke or reference and others do not that make me laugh about certain things. Mind you not everything is funny to me, but some antics are.
However, if I would be someplace, roleplaying along happily, immersed in my game, and a griefer comes in to disrupt my ‘game’, I find it annoying. Not because I’m pulled out of my immersion which is broken by for instance a pirate ship walking by or a lazor fired trough the club, but more because I’m forced into something I dont want at that moment. I would respond exactly the same if it were not a griefer coming in and setting off a lulzcube, but a friend who will keep chatting happily to me and simply ignore what I am doing at that very moment. Or, having to take out the garbage if you’re making nice times in that racing game on PS3. It’s just annoying, and distracting.
If ‘immersion’is broken, that is not a problem for me. I am a roleplayer, and I slip back into my role as easily as a griefer slips into another alt after being banned by a Linden.
Yes, a lot of peole hate being pulled out of their fantasy for whatever reasons and that is for them also the reason to respond to griefing in this way. It’s the same as with no furry Avatars belonging in Gor. Breaks the magic so it’s not desired.
However, Those of us who dont see griefing that serious, and dont care about ‘immersion’ as it’s click on click off, are just annoyed.
A screaming lulzcube following you around forces you to turn your volume down at least, just at that moment the dj in the club plays your favourite song. Or, the sim crashes, or your own client, so that you have to wait 5 minutes to log in, and then another 5 for the club to load again so you can go back to chatting with your friends. That’s just annoying, and has little to do with the ‘magic’ of the ‘fantasy’ being broken.
If I am building in the sandbox, and a dozen or two cubes with laughing batman begin to fill my screen, I am not bothered by any immersion breaking, but by the simple fact that it is hard to work on something with the cubes blocking my vieuw. and I like building in SL just as much as I like my model crafting in RL, and dont like to be bothered during either.
I couldnt agree with you any more, on the simple fact that;
Newsflash everyone!
An e-penis following your avatar arpound in a game, is NOT as serious as a carbomb in front of a school causing 115 deaths.
Even if the sim you have your buisness goes down, it takes only shortly to start up again and you can go back to making your 20 lindens per sold T-shirt… nothing earthshattering, the world isnt going to end.
Heck, LL themselves are responsible for more downtime then every single griefer AND their alts combined.
I used to run a furry club on SL, popular target for Mooty and all other assorted griefers. Fun times. I have never taken griefing seriously, and never will. The only reason I like(d) to kick them out, is because to me, that in itself is a game. Kind of them VS us, their lulzcubes VS our freezing and ejecting powers. and of course the verbal tongue in cheeck fighting back and fro. It’s somewhat like playing a wargame versus a rival clan, only with less guns and more humor and poolaids.
I have an afro, a suit and tie, and a Yiff In Hell Furfag sign, and yes even a mario moshpit bomb, albeit a very small one that wont even cause lag let alone bring anyone’s client or sim to a crash. Griefing is nothing serious, and I wear my furry fox-PN costume happily at halloween or just when I’m fooling around with friends. For the lulz.
All the ZOMG TERRORISM peeps need to lighten up.
If you’re griefed, laugh about it, log back in, and just continue what it is you were doing. Yes it’s annoying, yes it would be more fun if griefers would find a way to have fun without being annoying little shits, but shrugging it off is a hell of a lot less stressfull then getting all worked up about it.
And with tools available today, it’s a piece of cake keeping griefers away from your land or club, if you really really really cannot stand a little more lag then there already is in SL daily without griefers.
Pool’s Forever Open.
also,
cocks.
Galatea Gynoid
Feb 20th, 2008
“My point is that even mediocre events of immersion-breaking are generally considered serious events – at least in-world. Out of Second Life, however, such events are found generally humorous by those who watch them on video-sharing websites or see them in media like blogs, because those people do not have any immersion, or investment into the “world”.”
Actually, this pretty much entirely misses the point. The reason why the people find these events humorous has nothing to do with not having immersion, it has to do with not having empathy. The griefers are actually a little too immersed in their own imaginary world: they imagine everything in SL is fake. But there are real people there, just as there are real people in IRC chatrooms and on the other end of the telephone and in many other human interactions, even when they aren’t “in person”. The “it’s all fake” attitude is therefore quite flawed, but it allows them to dehumanize the people they attack in ways they never could if they were in the same room with them, despite the fact that all the people involved would be just as real, and all the human interaction just as real, in either situation. The medium of communications does not impact the reality of the communication. Anyhow, once the target is properly dehumanized, it becomes easy to victimize without feeling empathy.
The “you’re taking it too seriously” defense is the same one used by those who drive another person to tears with their teasing. Basically, if you’re horribly hurt, it’s your fault for not growing a thicker skin. “You’re taking it too seriously” if you’re actually hurt by the teasing, therefore, it’s all your fault for being hurt, not theirs for doing something that they insist shouldn’t be hurtful, nevermind the fact that the reason they’re doing it is because they know how you’ll react, that it will indeed be very hurtful.
Thus, they laugh at the depictions on the video-sharing sites and blogs, not because they lack immersion, but because they’re the kind of people who find that kind of thing funny. Comparing them to terrorists is obvious hyperbole, since their actions are nowhere near as monstrous as those of a real terrorist. Besides, from what I’ve seen, most terrorists display genuine concern for their fellow human beings, as least those they see themselves as defending. I doubt most griefers can summon that level of humanity. You actually have to care to be a terrorist, and griefers like the author of this article are too far divorced from normal human psychology to ever do that. So they’ll never be as bad as terrorists, or as good as most decent people. They’re doomed to mediocre lives of apathy, unable to truly care about anything, and getting what little thrill they can by attacking other people for caring too much. They “prove” their own superiority by not being hurt by things that any decent human being would be hurt by, and giving them more reason to deride those who actually care. They say as much, in articles like this one. You care, so you must be taking it all too seriously. In their own bizarre little world, they’re superior for not caring, and doing us a favor by teaching us to not care too.
The fact of the matter is, you’re hurting people, and doing it for kicks, and laughing about it afterwards. If the best argument you can put forward to justify yourself is that they’re taking it too seriously and shouldn’t have been hurt by it, then you’re lost. Even if we grant that what you say is true, it remains a fact that you knew they would, even if they shouldn’t, and did it anyway, so, even if what you say it 100% right and true, it remains a fact that you’re deliberating hurting people, doing it for kicks, and laughing about it afterwards.
I not only fear terrorists more than people like you, I also respect them more than people like you. They’re monsters, but there’s more to respect in them than in you. What they do is truly monstrous, what you do is just sad.
Ava Cartier
Feb 20th, 2008
While I applaud what griefers are theoretically attempting to do, the bottom line is that some people aren’t interested in it. I don’t like post-modernist art so no one forces me to attend a gallery showing of Mike Bidlo.
I agree that there are some who take the Second Life experience entirely too seriously, but you know what? That’s my opinion. It doesn’t make it a factual statement.
Griefers have to respect others’ SL experience. Some of us have thousands upon thousands of dollars wrapped up in SL and would prefer to live out our second lives without being bothered by a prankster with nothing better to do. Myself, I enjoy a good grief now and again, but I know when to stop. And I certainly do not crash sims.
Perhaps griefers should invest in their own land and have a griefer role-playing sim. I would be thrilled to be your bitch on your own land. I love seeing what new things your crazy little brains come up with. I’m sure there are others like me who wouldn’t mind a couple hours a week of mindless frivolity (beyond the general Second Life experience).
The bottom line is just be respectful of others’ wishes and you’ll be pleasantly surprised how seriously some will take your idea of fun.