The Alphaville Herald

55 Responses to “Sex and the Second Life City: A Dead End”

1. 

   anon
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   n..no..my internet avatar……….

   kill yourself
2. 

   Darien Caldwell
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   Not badly written, I would say you have a future in porn scripts for straight-to-video.
3. 

   The Wanderer
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   Millennium, don’t let them get you down if the replies here get after you for TPing out.

   You are hitting a wall not unlike the one I hit in Gor–I got disgusted and almost quit the series (it will resume next month, btw). Now you know what “capture RP” means. It ain’t pretty in Gor or anywhere else.

   Eventually I found sims that RPed within my own limits.

   So will you, even in a part of SL that’s rougher-edged than most Gorean regions. You stuck with it, btw, longer than I’d have!
4. 

   Scylla Rhiadra
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   Hmmm… “It doesn’t take long before the girl and her real life typist feel humiliated and badly exploited by this bad balance of roleplay giving and taking.”

   Yeah, nothing else going on here to feel “humiliated and badly exploited” about.

   Nice to see that Herald is doing away with any pretenses entirely, and getting right into lurid and badly written rape porn.
5. 

   Corona Anatine
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   the conclusion from this article seems to be

   males who think with their dicks cant roleplay

   how is this news ?
6. 

   Cleo
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   Well, this really comes as no real shock. Dead End USED to be a place that prided itself on high quality RP. But in the last 6 months that’s turned around and it’s now a haven for the “Click on the poseball” RP crowd. Pity really, it IS one of the higer quality urban builds you’ll find.
7. 

   Spencer
   

   Jul 23rd, 2009
   

   Cleo is right. I first started playing in Dead End a little over a year ago. The players were so good back then, I didn’t think I would ever fit in. But after some encouragement from some of the ‘old hands’ I really got into it and had a lot of fun, as well as learning a few things along the way. It’s sad that DE is no longer a “Unique kidnap BDSM sim.” So many people spent time and effort creating a really good sim to roleplay in. You can have the best build in SL, but without rp’ers like Sarah, Cally, Cleo, Stefi, Summer, Gary, Nico, Jacobi, Dwight, Kara, Kay, Leslie, Lucy, Kie, Kire and many others, who made DE something different, you just have biker/fight/combat/poseball sim #350.
8. 

   Sirius Hartshon
   

   Jul 24th, 2009
   

   Very nice series, good writing … looking forward to the next installment (same goes to The Wanderer too).
9. 

   Jink
   

   Jul 24th, 2009
   

   I love the beginning of your article and the later portion after you got nabbed is a good basis for discussion on SL roleplay in general. In Deadend you will find roleplayers of all skill levels. You encountered one that is not very sophisticated and that is unfortunate. But you didn’t even make it very far into Deadend. There are many very good roleplayers in Deadend and you do the sim and its residents a disservice by having an encounter with an unsophisticated roleplayer be a sort of determining factor of whether the sim is good or bad.
10. 

    Oafeelia Bayn
    

    Jul 24th, 2009
    

    Hmmmm nicely written article. Too bad you didnt get further into town, or make allowances for language differences. Personally, I wouldnt feel humiliated by the imbalance in emotes, people have differences in RP styles. My style is, to accept this and move on, or go with the flow.

    As a dedicated DE’er and one who RP’s as a reporter on the Daily, I do more research for my rp articles than appears to have been done here. Halfway up the hill, a bad RP experience and that’s good enough for an article?
11. 

    Fun loving
    

    Jul 24th, 2009
    

    I would agree with a few comments here. First, barely entering the Sim and jumping into the first RP without any consideration of interests and mutual fun is as much the reporters failure as it is the Sim’s. There’s few things in roleplay more frustrating than the visiting player who expects all in the Sim to bow and cater to them, with no effort to do so in return. It appears from this article, you arrived looking for the quick grab and f***, and that’s what you got. No pretty dialog to that kind of scene. I have a good idea who you encountered, and this is their style. It’s a style some like and some don’t. I lean more towards the latter. I think you needed to give the whole Sim a chance by seeking out play more like what you wanted for mutual enjoyment. Communication is a key part of roleplay. An experienced and quality player knows this and would own that along with the other players.

    Second, as some have stated, this Sim has lost a big part of what it once was. Where it once stood out in a way hard to describe but amazing to experience, it now seems to be no more than a biker/combat/poseball crowd sim. It used to pride itself with realistic and quality roleplay and the quality of the build. Something changed very quickly. There was once ample staff keeping grievers in check, helping new players learn, and creating ways for people to get involved. Now, it’s hard to find any staff. There are so few just about anything goes. The place can be empty and lag worse than some of the busiest sims in SL. A large number of players who have lived in the sim for a long time have left. Some have openly said their reasons on the forum. It seems to come down to the owner changing things with no respect for input from the regulars and treating long time players poorly. There was also a posting that said the problem owner sold the Sim soon after the long time players left. How would you like to be that new owner? Ouch!
12. 

    Orion Pseudo
    

    Jul 24th, 2009
    

    Gee, sounds to me like that place is overrun by free sexers and norsim type folks… I’m sorry but translators just don’t work at all well when you’re playing a literary game. Blegh.
13. 

    ImJustSayin
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    I would suggest to people that they come to Deadend and see for themselves what it is like. Maybe for openers go to Lulu’s bar or the Jade Dragon Restaurant to get your feet wet.

    As for the posts about “what Deadend used to be” and all that : For the newcomer, which I believe it can be said this article is geared for, that stuff is irrelevant. What those posts are about is a small cliquish group of roleplayers who were role playing legends in their own minds. They could not prevail to keep “outsiders” (meaning people like you) and “poor role players” ( meaning everyone but themselves) out. So they left.

    So it is irrelevant to the newcomer experience because that group would have had nothing to do with you to begin with.
14. 

    Herman Münster
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    It’s a sex sim. Honestly, what did you expect? Creativity? Intelligence? Rational thought?

    Sex sims have none of these things. Everyone is there for their own little obsession and if you dare to question their poop and pee fetishes you’ll be banned quicker than you can say “why do you enjoy pooping on womens chests?”.

    Sex sims are inhabited by insular cliques were everybody is a sycophant of each other. Nobody dares question the status quo even when it’s obviously going to lead to the groups collapse. Everybody says their roleplay is “deep” and “well crafted”, but that’s bullshit. All roleplay follows this pattern “use as many words as possible to describe simple actions because big sentences equals intelligent writing”.

    It doesn’t.
15. 

    Senban Babii
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    @Fun Loving

    “Second, as some have stated, this Sim has lost a big part of what it once was. Where it once stood out in a way hard to describe but amazing to experience, it now seems to be no more than a biker/combat/poseball crowd sim.”

    You’ve got my sympathy to a degree. We have all had favourite sims which have degraded over time. But the reporter didn’t visit this sim during its heyday. She visited it recently and reported what she found. Are there still pockets of quality roleplay tucked away in corners of the sim? Possibly, who knows? But you can’t expect a reporter writing a short series of relatively short articles to spend hours and maybe days investigating a sim just in case of a hidden gem. A short article requires a relatively broad brush to give an outline of what goes on in that sim. Ideally the reporter would have had a huge budget and loads of time to investigate and research but this isn’t the Discovery Channel. It’s up to the reader to decide whether to follow up the story if they’re interested.

    @Millennium Sands

    “Forcing the helpless girl down on her knees, the giant opens his pants, grabs her head by the hair, and silences her appeals for mercy in the most cruel and reckless way.”

    When faced with shitty roleplaying skills, remember that’s what teeth and the ability of the human jaw to exert tremendous pressure are for :-bd

    /me lulls you into a false sense of security and then, manoeuvering your precious (and yet warty, yellow and sort of worryingly small) manhood around inside her mouth, bites down hard, grinding and chewing, blood spurting while you thrash and scream in agony, threatening to bite clean through unless she’s released or given a decent roleplay experience.

    So much more fun than simply tp’ing away
16. 

    Summer
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    Hey, ImJustSayin, I didn’t know you knew me or any of the other posters here well enough to know why we chose to leave Deadened. Perhaps you do, but were just too cowardly to use your own real name?

    What those posts are about is not a small, cliquish group of roleplayers. As one of those former “legends in (my) own mind,” I will tell you I left Deadend, not because of all the newcomers, but for many, many other personal reasons.

    I was former staff for the sim. I was a roleplay guide for the sim. My name and information card was readily available for anyone who clicked on the greeting sign, letting them know that I was willing and available to help guide them with any questions they may have had.

    I gave up countless hours of my own time to help newcomers to Deadend. I left many roleplays to deal with issues. I embraced, guided, welcomed and played with more new people in the sim than you can even count. And I did it without complaint or expecting anything in return.

    Then management decided to make some secretive changes that, in my opinion and the opinion of many others, were unnecessary and actually detrimental to the sim. When we spoke up about it, we were either ignored or given a brush off. We were basically told it’s not our sim and to shut up. Rules were bent and changed for a certain select group and the rest of us were again told to shut up and deal.

    As someone who had spent tens of thousands of Lindens in Deadend renting, playing and donating, I was bothered by this – not only the attitude of management, but the way the quality of roleplay in the sim began to decline when these groups were allowed to do what they pleased. And yes, it turned into a combat/poseball sim.

    And yet I stayed and continued as a roleplay guide. When I was told by someone for the fifth time that they would “do what they wanted”, when my actions were assumed for me for the ten thousandth time, and when I was godmodded and metagamed time and time again, I had had enough. So yes, I picked up my belongings and moved on. If this makes me a whiny crybaby “legend,” then so be it.

    And if you’d like to know any more about why I left, ImJustSayin, you can catch me in world and I’ll speak with you personally. I had no problem using my name here. It’s such a shame that you didn’t have the same decency.
17. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    The most disturbing thing about this article, and the attached comments, is the fact that, with the sole exception of The Wanderer’s post (where the issue is at least implied), there seems to be absolutely NO discussion here or even awareness of, the ethical issues raised by what is being described.

    First, let me concede that simulated rape is NOT “real” rape. And I will grant that it IS consensual.

    BUT it is still violent and extreme porn. Even more disturbingly, it is interactive and interpersonal violent porn. More disturbingly, because every time a female avi hits the “Accept” button on a rape animation, “she” is “confirming” that women fantasize about rape, and find the idea “fun” and “sexy.” Is this REALLY the message that women want to send? Men, is this what you really THINK?

    Turning rape into a game is appalling; it trivializes a horrendous social ill that has left a trail of devastation through every continent and culture on earth. Hey, why don’t we have a REALLY fun sim in which you can pilot a jet into one of the Twin Towers, and then watch simulated bodies fall to their deaths? The virtual carnage would be smaller.

    More to the point, rape simulation CONTRIBUTES to the RL evil by reinforcing dangerous and harmful stereotypes about violence against women. There is a mountain of evidence suggesting that porn, and especially violent porn, does just this. This is not the place to post a bibliography, but here is the briefest taste:

    – One study found canvassed 256 perpetrators of sexual offenses: 56% of the rapists and 42% of the child molesters suggested that pornography played a role in their offenses.

    – Another notes that, after only 10 minutes of exposure to violent porn, male subjects were much more willing to buy into rape myths, including an acceptance of the notion that up to a quarter of the women they know would “enjoy” being raped.

    – A report prepared for the US Attorney General’s office cites a study of 89 non-incarcerated sex offenders which demonstrated that “slightly more than one-third of the child molesters and rapists reported at least occasionally being incited to commit an offense by exposure to forced or consenting pornography.”

    A meta-analysis, employing data from over 12,000 subjects, demonstrated that, with exposure to pornographic materials, “there is a 22% increase in sexual perpetration; a 20% increase in negative intimate relationships; and a 31% increase in believing rape myths.”

    This is the tip of the research ice berg. You can find information on these and other studies at

    http://feministos.wetpaint.com/page/Representations+of+Violence+against+Women+in+Virtual+Worlds%3A+A+Bibliography+of+Sources

    Do you want to argue that these studies are invalid? Fine, let’s hear your arguments and your counter evidence. But at least, for god’s sake, acknowledge that there is an ISSUE here.

    Oh, and incidentally … wondering whom you are letting “rape” you? Sure, maybe he IS a nice “family man,” like he says … or … Comparable statistics for SL are not available, but as of 2008, MySpace alone had over 29,000 registered sex offenders.
18. 

    Senban Babii
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    @ImJustSayin

    “I would suggest to people that they come to Deadend and see for themselves what it is like.”

    FWIW I just spent the last hour in Deadend, seeing for myself (well, I took a friend along as she was interested). I tried as far as possible to remain in some kind of character, although I don’t do roleplay stuff within SL, and claimed to have caught the wrong bus and was now wandering round this strange place. I didn’t even get across the bridge by the motel before some griefer dressed as Batman turned up and started trying to cage and orbit people. Easily dealt with but not a lot of capture role play going on so far beyond perhaps the caging aspect. Wandered round a bit, nice enough sim but seriously laggy. Visited Lulu’s bar which actually did have some roleplay going on although it wasn’t sex-based, just general “people sitting in a bar” roleplay which was good in that sense.

    Someone did roleplay trying to entice me into a cage and I tried, I really did try to get into the spirit of things but he didn’t even know how to make his own cage work :-/

    I did find one small group of people who appeared to be engaged in some actual capture sex. I listened for a little bit. Didn’t see any poseballs, just saw some people roleplaying but it was very non-immersive and dull.

    Verdict – nice to visit something new but not interesting enough to go back and visit.
19. 

    Jessica Holyoke
    

    Jul 25th, 2009
    

    Hi Scylla,

    I was reading through some of what you were saying but here’s what caught my eye this time. You quoted “– A report prepared for the US Attorney General’s office cites a study of 89 non-incarcerated sex offenders which demonstrated that “slightly more than one-third of the child molesters and rapists reported at least occasionally being incited to commit an offense by exposure to forced or consenting pornography.”

    Here’s my problem with using that as proof. One, you have a Justice Department that is trying to do more obscenity prosecutions. Two, 89 people is an incredibly small sample size, three, getting turned on by pornography is sort of the point, four, the rapists and molesters sited said consenting pornography so in theory, you can justify banning legal erotica because a third of respondents said that it might cause them to be incited to commit a crime, fifth, its incited to commit, not commit and sixth, criminals have a nasty habit of not taking responsibility for their actions. Ted Bundy blamed cheerleader magazines at one point. Would you ban them to prevent a serial killer from striking?
20. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 26th, 2009
    

    Hi Jessica:

    I don’t necessarily disagree with any of your reservations about this particular study. I think that relying upon a single study would be foolish, and I am not pointing to any one of these examples as in any sense “conclusive.”

    These are all academic studies, and they employ the methodologies that are standard in the particular field (psychology, sociology, anthropology, etc.) for which they are written; this includes in some instances control groups and, in the case of at least one study I can recall, a polygraph test of subjects. Their academic credibility of course rests on the degree to which they are rigorous in applying these sorts of precautionary measures to prevent skewed data.

    That said, methodologies, sample sizes, the text used for questions, etc., are ALWAYS going to be open to some debate, and are, moreover, going to change somewhat over time. In addition, any social science has to deal with the basic problem that it is studying human beings, who cannot be disassembled and analyzed in the way that computer hardware or software can.

    So, again, I am not claiming infallibility for any of these studies. What tends to convince me is the overall weight of all the evidence, from all of the very many studies that have been published on the subject over the last three decades or so; a literature search on the subject can be quite overwhelming. And while there certainly ARE studies that would contest the link that I am making, they are far, far fewer in number and (I think) less convincing.

    In suggesting a link between pornography (and my own focus is upon violent porn) and sexual violence, I am also not being so reductive as to suggest that there is a one-to-one relationship. Not all rapists use porn, as these studies concede. It is highly probable that many who did would have done exactly the same thing even without access to hard porn. Getting rid of violent porn is not going to end violence against women. But it will almost certainly alleviate at least some of the carnage.

    I think it’s important to bear in mind the big picture. Overall, attitudes towards women in the West have improved enormously over the course of the last half century. They aren’t perfect yet, but no one would argue that women are in the same place they were in the 1950s. And to a very great degree, that is because of the gradual effect of changing depictions of women in the media. Pornography is one of the last bastions of “old think” in this regard, and violent porn taps into an even more invidious set of out-of-date way of thinking about women. As our attitudes towards the acceptability of porn in a civilized society change, I think we will see a similar shift that will reduce the violence.

    Three hundred years ago, thinking with regard to race and slavery began to undergo a similar sea-change, aided in large measure by the changing nature of the sorts of things that were being written about these subjects. God knows racism is not dead, but slavery is (largely) gone, and racism overall is a great deal less violent and all-pervasive than it once was.

    One final point: I am not calling for the “banning” of anything. What I want to see is an acknowledgment of the effects of violent porn; when that starts to happen, it WILL largely wither away on the vine.
21. 

    corona anatine
    

    Jul 26th, 2009
    

    Getting rid of violent porn is not going to end violence against women.

    probably not as the only way to end violence agianst women is to get rid of violent men, women and children
    and to do so would reqiure at least an increment of violence.

    and a society without aggression would probably not last long

    2
    are there really such things as cheerleader magazines?
22. 

    Jumpman Lane
    

    Jul 26th, 2009
    

    now if u hang around witha bunch of retards and play their tardy lil reindeer games and ya end up with a icecicle shoved up ya ass, is it santa clawses fault! NO! it’s ur fault …um tard! lmfao we’ve had herald writers write for us inna past, is sneakin around role playin rape fantasies a prerequsite for a herald reportin job! they here piggy piggy pappy enoch in his current slot! ? :p
23. 

    RMG
    

    Jul 27th, 2009
    

    I read the Second Life book put out by MIT Press and it seemed like an interesting attempt to do real journalism in a virtual world.

    I guess it’s ACTUALLY just for people’s erotic Second Life fanfiction though!

    good god
24. 

    General Drama
    

    Jul 27th, 2009
    

    I have to say, I’ve met more real women on SL who want to be treated like shit and enjoy it, they actually get upset and feel neglected if you treat them like a normal human being, than I have in RL. That said, I have still met tons of women in RL who are the same way. Women love assholes, and they love being treated like shit. Comes from being whipped by daddy, they only feel loved when they’re treated like crap.

    That said, I don’t agree with treating women that way, tho being ethical about it tends to reduce one’s chances of getting laid. Most women think nice guys are only for being friends with.
25. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 27th, 2009
    

    “Women love assholes, and they love being treated like shit. Comes from being whipped by daddy, they only feel loved when they’re treated like crap.

    That said, I don’t agree with treating women that way, tho being ethical about it tends to reduce one’s chances of getting laid. Most women think nice guys are only for being friends with.”

    I suppose I ought to thank you, General Drama, for so neatly exemplifying my point about the effects and appeal of violent porn.

    For your information, women do NOT “love being treated like shit,” even in those *minority* of cases where submissive behaviour or violence is a FANTASY for them. Please note the emphasis: FANTASY.

    Even if you are unable to grasp this distinction, please continue to be “ethical about it” before you do harm to someone for REAL.
26. 

    Corona Anatine
    

    Jul 27th, 2009
    

    Even if you are unable to grasp this distinction, please continue to be “ethical about it” before you do harm to someone for REAL.

    if that includes himself – then your warning is perhaps too late

    his comments also make you wonder what sort of women he knows/meets
27. 

    Corona Anatine
    

    Jul 27th, 2009
    

    re
    That said, I don’t agree with treating women that way, tho being ethical about it tends to reduce one’s chances of getting laid. Most women think nice guys are only for being friends with.

    eh no
    being an asshole with an opinion of women like yours tends to reduce ones chances of getting laid

    especially as that implies that you veiw such activity as the aole purpose of women
28. 

    Reality
    

    Jul 27th, 2009
    

    Scylla … Get over yourself.

    Here’s the cold, hard fact: There ARE women out there who, for whatever reason, seek out abusive men.

    How do I know this?

    I’ve had to try to counsel, comfort and otherwise piece together my own female friends before, during and (RARELY, seeing as so few ever get this far) after such a relationship.

    The rare few that take my advice and leave their abusive boyfriends … Well, they get right back into it again with yet another abusive asshole.

    Almost none of them have ever managed to find someone who was not abusive. When they do? They either brush the guy off or make an attempt, only to find that something is missing.

    So then Scylla: Do not ever presume to be using facts gained from any kind of experience at all.

    Oh yes: Do not bother firing back any sort of response attempting to claim any level of experience whatsoever, not even personal “I’m a victim” experience. I will not buy it and neither will anyone that has had to sit back and watch their friends make the same exact mistakes over and over again.

    Frankly, people like you who dismiss the possibility that there are women out there with serious mental health issues of the sort that make them seek out abusers is … Disgusting.
29. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    “Reality,” you are pretty fundamentally confusing two connected but very different things in your post.

    That there are many woman — a tragically high number — who remain or even return to physically (or psychologically) abusive relationships is a very very well documented fact. The reasons that abused women choose to do are enormously varied and complex: emotional dependence, fear, financial circumstances, pressure from family or friends, and many others may figure in. In some cases, a woman may simply have been beaten into complete subjugation.

    You can find a good “checklist” of the “barriers to leaving” abuse relationships at this link:

    http://resourcewoman.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Is_Your_Partner_Really_Changing_-_A_Checklist.0163758.doc

    To assume, then, that such women continue in physically abusive relationships because they LIKE or WANT the abuse, is a horrifying distortion of the truth. In essence, you are blaming the victim for her own victimization.

    Abused women remain (tragically, and too often fatally) in such relationships DESPITE the physical or psychological violence, NOT because of it.

    Do you REALLY believe that any woman returns home from work looking FORWARD to getting punched in the face or kicked in the stomach by an abusive partner? They may hope that things will improve, or that they will be able to “fix” the “problem” that they believe is leading to the violence. Often they may even blame themselves for it. But they are certainly not there because they “enjoy” or “want” it: this is a bit like suggesting that men get into physical fights because they enjoy getting punched in the face and spitting up blood and teeth.

    And yes, such women may *sometimes* find themselves back in other abusive relationships afterward; again, the psychological mechanisms at work are complicated, and may (for instance) relate to childhood abuse. Such women are fundamentally “damaged”: they are STILL victims because their self-destructive behaviour has been conditioned by the abuse inflicted upon them by others.

    An enormous amount of research and work has been conducted on the problem of domestic abuse, and the myths that surround it. A simple Google search of “domestic abuse” will locate thousands of worthwhile resources, but here is a good one:

    http://resourcewoman.org/abusive_relationships

    It is laudable that you have tried to help friends who have been in abusive relationships. If, however, you truly want to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem, you need to better inform yourself about the true nature of abusive relationships.
30. 

    Reality
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    Scylla, I’m not going to bother deconstructing your response and throwing it right back at you: Instead I will tell you that your opinion is worthless as far as I am concerned until you’ve either experienced these situations yourself or had to counsel those who have been through it.

    Don’t bother responding to me until you have such experience: Experience trumps bullshit.
31. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    Well, Reality (interesting misnomer, btw) … it’s hard to know where to begin replying to such a lucid and well-argued post.

    What makes you think that I don’t have “experience” with abused women? Does YOUR “experience” with your friends outweigh that of the thousands of battered women’s shelters and rape crisis centres out there who will tell you exactly what I did?

    Apparently so …

    In the final analysis, you seem to be determined upon insisting that some women, at least, want to be beaten up, abused, or even raped.

    And that makes you, in my book, a very scary person indeed.
32. 

    corona anatine
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    intersting angle on scylla that ‘reality ‘ takes

    “I will tell you that your opinion is worthless as far as I am concerned until you’ve either experienced these situations yourself or had to counsel those who have been through it.”

    yet earlier he states that he would not credit such even if she had such experience

    “Oh yes: Do not bother firing back any sort of response attempting to claim any level of experience whatsoever, not even personal “I’m a victim” experience. I will not buy it and neither will anyone that has had to sit back and watch their friends make the same exact mistakes over and over again.”

    just what exactly makes your opinion so much more worthwhile than hers?
    given you can claim to have known lots of women who have been through abusive relationships
    and yet if she had had the same level of expereince as you, you automatically assume hers is invalid, merely because it disaggrees with your opinion
    and refuse to answer the points she raises, as if so pretnating to gretaer knowledge than her, that somehow makes you look wiser and more creditable.
    that is not how a dicussion works
33. 

    corona anatine
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    there are women out there with serious mental health issues of the sort that make them seek out abusers

    oh so abusers are just performing a social service in regard to mentally ill women!

    that makes it alright then?

    i would have thought it was more a case of women seeking out ‘male ‘ men who sadly have bene conditioned by society to think that violence equates with ‘being a man’

    who are the more mentally unhealthy ?
34. 

    Jessica Holyoke
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    I am anxious to see how this complex issue of placing blame on the victim of domestic violence will work out on this board. That question of whether the victim is always blameless or you have to look at the victim sometimes and ask “what are you thinking?” The biggest reason I didn’t want to prosecute domestic violence cases is that the victim often doesn’t want to testify against their abuser.
35. 

    Reality
    

    Jul 28th, 2009
    

    Scylla, I have no way of verifying anything you say at all: Therefore I cannot take anything you say on the subject at face value.

    To add to this, I have noticed that you cannot resist making a comment when a post like this one crops up on the herald, or elsewhere. This tells me enough to make anything you say suspect.

    Constantly harping on the same thing and using the same, tired old responses each and every time … Sorry, that makes you, in my book, a very disturbed individual.

    Corona: Keep your nose out of it. Quite frankly I am sick and tired of you and was such the last time you decided to respond to one of my comments or otherwise attempt to disassemble what I have said.

    I will not answer the points of a person so disturbed as to comment time and time again on the same topic, whenever even the slightest hint of it comes up.

    Do I give a damn if she ever has or had any real experience? Nope, I don’t. In my book, any response she makes to me is invalid until she can prove she is not disturbed, herself.

    If she can prove she is not disturbed, then I might take any proof of her experience at face value.

    So far? She hasn’t proven that yet.
36. 

    Corona Anatine
    

    Jul 29th, 2009
    

    If she can prove she is not disturbed,
    So far? She hasn’t proven that yet.[in your opinion]

    have you proved you are not ?

    as for keeping out of it – I was under the impression this was a public debate forum not a private conversation

    if you dont like people questioning what you say then dont say anything and people wont
37. 

    Corona Anatine
    

    Jul 29th, 2009
    

    whether or not reality is disturbed is a moot point but he definitly exhibits signs of being self centred, opinionated to the point of bigotry and arrogantly full of himself.

    this is shown by his attitude that anyone who questions what he says , disaggrees with him or has a different opinion is subject to his personal attacks and venom agiant their credentails or qaulificat to speak on subject s of which he always claims 100% knowledge / experiance of , and which no one but him is permitted to have to his level of expertise

    not even a feminist giving an opinion on womens rights issues

    this is even shown by your name of ‘reality’ which appears to have the aim of making your veiwpoint seem more credible
38. 

    Corona Anatine
    

    Jul 29th, 2009
    

    Scylla, I have no way of verifying anything you say at all: Therefore I cannot take anything you say on the subject at face value.

    ????

    no way of verifying or not what anyone says

    come off it

    you have the same access to information via the internet and libararies as she does

    or is all your knowledge only obtained from people you know personally?
39. 

    Corona Anatine
    

    Jul 29th, 2009
    

    experience trumps bullshit yes

    but education trumps experience
40. 

    Reality
    

    Jul 29th, 2009
    

    I will be blunt here Corona: Your input is not welcome.

    If you have anything at all to add to the topic of this post (NOT Scylla’s little rant) then do so.

    Nothing she has said concerning HERSELF is verifiable.

    No study ever done takes into account all possible variables OR the effect the subconscious has on a person’s actions.

    Sorry: Experience trumps the bullshit that is drilled into people by morons who want you to adhere to what society believes.

    Do you know why experience trumps the bullshit that passes for ‘education’ these days? ‘Education’ can not prepare you for what you may experience in life, whereas experience can educate you.

    Sound confusing?

    It isn’t to anyone that actually thinks for themselves.
41. 

    Reality
    

    Jul 29th, 2009
    

    Oh, and Corona?

    Watch the bullshit you spew.

    I don’t claim total knowledge of any subject.

    I do however call out the bullshit that is spewed and labeled the words of the so called ‘educated’.

    I do call out the bullshit spewed by anyone who is so obsessed about ANY topic, that they near always post comments to material that may only have a fringe relation to their hot button issue.

    I don’t want words on a screen, I want verifiable proof of people’s claims. That proof does not include more words on a screen.
42. 

    Corona anatine
    

    Jul 30th, 2009
    

    re
    I don’t want words on a screen, I want verifiable proof of people’s claims. That proof does not include more words on a screen.

    in this context what else are you going to get ?

    scylla gave you a source of proof that is not just her words on a screen
    = A simple Google search of “domestic abuse” will locate thousands of worthwhile resources, but here is a good one:

    http://resourcewoman.org/abusive_relationships

    did you bother to check it or just dismiss it ?

    your claims are just as subject to this as anyone elses

    you type in your opinion on a subject, [ and your opinion is as hard or easy to verify as anyones else, ] and then when someone gives their opinion on something which differs from yours
    you immediatly claim that YOUR opinion is the one true one and that you will ignore or vilify anyone whose opinions differ from yours, unless they offer ‘proof you can verify’

    then when they offer proff you cna verify you claim it is still not good enought cos its just words on a screen

    given that almost everything we use is either words on a screen or printed words on a paper page, makes me wonder what proof would satisfy you?

    your conterarguemtn that perxonal expereince is of more wieght than what you read is fair enought – IF you allow that scylla personal expereince is likley diffeent to yours and therefore by your own criterea just as valid

    you really need to step back and veiw things a bit more objectively

    ps welcome or not, comment exhibiting unfair criticism of others will recieve my comments when i choose to give them
    i dont suppose scylla found your personal attack on her particulary welcome either
    but of course your opinion trumps her [in your opinion]
43. 

    Corona anatine
    

    Jul 30th, 2009
    

    Frankly, people like you who dismiss the possibility that there are women out there whose opinions and veiwpoint is just as valid as yours is … Disgusting.
44. 

    Corona anatine
    

    Jul 30th, 2009
    

    while it is a fact that some women do tend to repeat the expereince of having an abusive partner,it does not follow that it is abuse that is the key element that they seek in each relationship, rather it is more probable that the type of men they seek are those that happen to be abusive as a by product of their social conditioning
    to cite a personal expereince of a self selected sub set of women
    is totally unsuitable as a basis to extrapolate from for three reasons
    a- it is a very small sub-set of all abused women
    b- it is only applicable to a specific cultural/geographic location
    c- the women who confided in ‘Reality’ would only consist of those women who wanted to confide in him and were in a position to do so

    while it might be true for the self selected set of women who talked to him
    it does not neccesaarily follow that the reasons they stated where a- true
    b- valid for all the abused women who did not confide in him

    while women do tend to seek out their ideal model of what a male is like
    abuse is very unlikley to be the main reason they repaet the experience
    the problem lies with the men in such relationships
    a sit is often the case that the woman CANNOT leave the relationship
    because he will follow her with the aim of controlling her life
    or ending her life on the basis that if he cant have her then no one else is going to

    the veiw reality seems to have of the problem puts the cause solely with the women – they have mental health problems- whereas in real reality it is the abusers ( men or lesbian] who are the problem – and a solution only lies in adressing them not the women
45. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 30th, 2009
    

    Nice points indeed, Corona, but I suspect that we have both been wasting our breath on the ironically-named “Reality.”

    This kind of response — the “blame the victim” approach to domestic abuse — unfortunately bears more than a passing resemblance to the sort of attitude that suggests that a woman who wears “provocative” clothing, or has the audacity to walk out alone at night, is somehow to “blame” for her own sexual assault.

    Unfortunately, this is a mind-set that not merely ensures that nothing is done to rectify the REAL problem — attitudes towards women that are accepting of violence — but actually re-victimizes the very women we should be trying to help. Even worse, by instilling the notion of “guilt” for her own victimization in the assaulted woman (“it must have been my fault; everyone says he was right to hit me”), it perpetuates the very problems we have been talking about: the difficulty many women find in leaving an abusive situation in the first place.
46. 

    Reality
    

    Jul 31st, 2009
    

    Again corona – Your input is not welcome, nor is it needed.

    “Resources?”

    Once again: I’m not looking for words on a screen. Nor am I looking for a pile of horse shit.

    Do yourself a favor corona: Cease responding.

    Scylla is being treated exactly as “she” (at this point I am not about to believe anything that is typed by that user name) should be: An obsessive little nit that needs to be slapped in the face and taken to a shrink.

    Scylla, do yourself a favor and actually read what is being posted: I am placing the ‘blame’ on those who CAUSED the subconscious responses in the first place.

    Your responses are quite typical of those who are so wrapped up in their own little world that they miss what is being said.

    Maybe then you won’t be talking out your ass AND agreeing with someone like corona, who has proven to me time and again that she is incapable of even the simplest reading comprehension.

    Do those who abuse REAL women need a change in viewpoint? Yep: At the end of a gun, aimed at where their balls should be.

    All of the blame is NOT the abuser’s however and THAT is the god damned point I’ve been trying to get across – Along with the quite undeniable fact that stimuli like Second Life and any video game that contains any form of violence whatsoever …. only have a real effect in terms of altering behavior within those who are ALREADY exhibiting said behavior or that are seriously disturbed.
47. 

    Scylla Rhiadra
    

    Jul 31st, 2009
    

    Ah. I need to be “slapped in the face,” Reality?

    And kicked? And punched? Will I have learned my lesson then?

    I really don’t think I need to respond further to your violent and crude rants. I think you’ve just said it all far more vividly and succinctly than I could have.
48. 

    transwoman
    

    Jul 31st, 2009
    

    Reality {sic] says

    ‘All of the blame is NOT the abuser’s’

    so what you are basically claiming is that if a man beats up a woman he lives with, it is sometimes her fault that he cant control his temper
49. 

    Corona anatine
    

    Jul 31st, 2009
    

    and do yourself a favour reality:

    learn the diffrence between reasoned objective debate and subjective personal attacks

    vilifying other people does not make your arguement look better – if anything it only make you look like a ranting child
50. 

    Corona anatine
    

    Jul 31st, 2009
    

    actually read what is being posted: I am placing the ‘blame’ on those who CAUSED the subconscious responses in the first place.

    all you have actually said is [the rest of your comments were personal attacks againts others]

    Here’s the cold, hard fact: There ARE women out there who, for whatever reason, seek out abusive men.

    ok lets take that as given, an unknown percentage of women enjoy being abused/raped by abusive men
    so ok ignore them as being happily satisfied
    what of the rest of the women those who dont enjoy it ?

    the same could be said of pedophilia
    there are children under 16 out there who enjoy sex
    however society still rightly condemns the abuser because the vast majority dont
    when men who abuse women in a relationship are treated like peadophiles are – then abuse will end

    seeking to lay blame on the abuser or on the victim will only perpetuate the cycle
    it is not blame that should be sought but practical social solutions

    one more unneeded comment :

    reality says
    The rare few that take my advice and leave their abusive boyfriends

    if only it were so easy in all cases

    maybe you should make an audio tape of your advice so it can be given out to all women, and if they dont heed what you tell them – then they are just mentally ill of course

    sadly for most women the advice to ‘just leave him’ doesnt work in a lot of cases
    because the men often refuse to accept that she has chosen to end the relationship and follow/ stalk the woman
    in some case there are children
    in others there are other factors which prevent her leaving

    you are very good at dishing out advice to others reality
    not so hot at applying your own advice to yourself

Leave a Reply