Corsi Mousehold: JLU Are Power Hungry Crazed Nutjobs
by Alphaville Herald on 09/03/10 at 12:38 pm
[Corsi Mousehold has been awarded the “commie” or comment-of-the-week award for her explanation of why the Justice League Unlimited superheros are not welcome in Furnation. The award winning comment is reproduced below. ]
Here’s a bit of a story. IN years past the JLU were a welcomed member of the FurNation community. They didn’t bother anyone and no one really bothered them. That was until we were under a griefer attack and the JLU came over to ‘assist’ and the first thing they did was report ME to the lab for griefing. They approached me and yelled at me for causing the issue. I asked them why they reported me of all people. By this time I had already deleted all the offensive material. They told me that I was the one putting it all out and they had seen me doing it. Basically they had watched me selecting objects to return them. They were extremely rude to me at the time and informed me that they would have reports go up on me. I contacted Kalel and he too said I was being reported and then for harassment as well. I was not rude to these people at all. It was several days later that I was contacted by Kalel informing me that the ‘charges’ had been dropped because they did not realize I was the sim owner. My response of course was to point to the info hub I had in the center of the sandbox that had my name clearly displayed as the sim owner and if his comrades had taken a moment to look they would have seen I was in the admin team.
He called me ungrateful and abuse reported me again. I was informed of this by him as well as he had several of his friends make the same report. All reports were dismissed by the GOV team as illegitimate. Soon I had JLU members ‘patrolling’ the sandboxes and abuse reporting anyone that they felt was disobeying my rules. They started to get several members of my community banned. I was forced to add a new sim rule that the JLU were not allowed in the sim for any reason. When they had seen this, I was reported again for griefing. Again the report was dismissed.
In the end I was approached months later by Green Lantern Corps asking if it was okay for them to be there. They apologized for the treatment the JLU had given me and asked if they would be allowed to just come and build.
Green Lantern Corps are allowed to visit and act if they wish. But they are not allowed to be in tag or act as a part of the Corps while visiting. If they are the subject of a griefing they are to come to me and I would take care of it. They can then file all the reports they like.
In the end the JLU are a bunch of power hungry crazed nutjobs that think being an SL Police force gives them the right to get away with whatever they want. The GLC on the other hand have always been very respectful to me and my residents.
Senban Babii
Mar 9th, 2010
In b4 GLE tries to make excuses for the JLU again
Danziel Lane
Mar 9th, 2010
Great comment, I liked it much, when it was published, though there is always the idea there could be a bit of fantasy included.
However it shows, that the concept of JLU about fighting griefers is totally wrong.
- they come in big numbers? The griefer has more fun.
- they come in special dresses? The griefer has even more fun.
- they wear special tags? More fun.
- they are so many that they can’t see the difference between griefers and sim owners? Wow! Big success for the griefer.
- they make a lot of fuss in chat and voice? Even more fun for the griefer.
- they ban, eject and write ARs? Nice sim to return tomorrow with some alts.
All the actions of groups like JLU against griefers make a griefer’s life more fun. What they do is just what the griefers came for.
If I see a griefer on my land, I sit down, mute them, set particle number to zero and check, if they do something that brings me in trouble with TOS (for example copybot or showing of genitalia while kid avas are present). If so, I just take a screenshot for the AR and off they go with no warning or comment.
In all other cases, doing as much as nothing as a reaction, spoiled all their fun, they disappeared and never came back.
So in most cases something that comes near to total ignoring is the best to fight griefers. And that means: never invite a group of griefer fighters to your sim.
Corsi’s comment made that very clear again.
James Larken Smith
Mar 9th, 2010
In the end, vigilantes always cause more harm than good. And the JLU seem to be such. Too much power in the hands of a few….
Tux Winkler
Mar 9th, 2010
Corsi, and many others. The JLU’s self assigned importance holds no bounds. As I blogged a while ago, I had visited Sandbox Island. As I was rezzing, my QHUD notified me of a collision with a physical object owned by Kalel Venkman.
Thats right, superman shot me. I IM’d him and said not to shoot me. He justified himself by saying he was doing his duty clearing the sim.
Erm, thats what the autoreturn is for btw! And if it was his duty he would have land perms and be able to return it anyways!
He also said it was not a gun. But, ‘if it walks like one and acts like one, then it must be one!’. This rezzes a physical prim at velocity. To my mind its a gun. With a really big bullet btw (not a very good shot I guess – XD).
My point being, they do NOT adhere to the TOS whilst claiming to enforce it. They are nothing more than that which they claim to fight. No in fact they are worse. Because they claim they have a duty or right, implying Linden support. And, in fact many of those they call griefers actually provide important content to SL.
Still, I guess someone has hung a Kryptonite necklace around the old Vankers neck. He has gone very quiet of late.
cheeeeeese
Mar 9th, 2010
ooooooook
corsi mousehold a person who single handedly ruined furnation and was behind the famous furnation fruad scam in which he knew where the stolen $L and made sure that a single innocent person took the blame while he managed to talk to “certain” linden people to make sure that his “closest friends” got there cash back but made sure nexxus and several other people dident yes nexxus was forced to sell furnation to corsi who is now letting it be run by babyfurs and a meglomaniac fox no wait ferret no wait weasle oh wait hes a retarded foxferretweasle who hates other retards (no joke he really does HATE people who are disabled you should have heard him when asked about his poor little RL wife)
corsi mousehold skinny guy whos now so overweight he dont leave the house
corsi mousehold a guy who had a cheeseburger thrown at him at a furcon last year and went apeshit calling other furs “fucking fags” and “a bunch of weird fuckfaced furfags who dont know good music”
yup as for JLU yes they are a bunch of total fuckwits who think there cool in there tight spandex clothing and think there batman or some other retarded DC char but they USED to be estate managers of furnation and they got a shitload of innocent ppl perma banned ( even the one that made the JLU av’s)
corsi let em run around and run furnation and now corsi wont go near furnation except to go fuck his baby furs like the babyfur who is old enough to be corsi’s dad who calls corsi “MUM”
for god sake corsi is a drama whore
let me rephrase
corsi IS A WHORE
Wayfinder
Mar 9th, 2010
I have heard these sentiments echoed repeatedly throughout the SL community. In this instance, my first question is: why weren’t those “nut jobs” permabanned from the sim from the very start?
I’d have kicked their tails three ways to Sunday, then reported them to LL myself for breaking the TOS rules regarding harassment of legitimate users. Linden Lab does tend to pay attention to when a sim owner is harassed on his own sim.
I think a few instances of zero-tolerance abuse reports may have awakened these people to the fact that they’re no better than militaristic griefers themselves. A bunch of power-mad drama queens that get together and form a group gain no respect because of numbers or self-appointed titles. They’re still drama queens. On our sims they would not be tolerated… and would be taken out with the rest of the trash.
In the end, the responsibility for policing a sim lies with the sim owner. Personally, I’d have banned “Kalel” while he was spouting nonsense then asked everyone who was witness to file an abuse report against him as well. He is banned from our sims just on the general principle of his attitude. I think if more sim owners would take such pre-emptive measures, that group might get a clue. I doubt it, but maybe. ; )
Any one of these clowns who would show up on our sims would find out we have our own police force. We have a sign at our sim entrance: NO DRAMA, ZERO TOLERANCE. Anyone who chooses to disregard that sign quickly discovers what it means. ; )
Imo, the way to deal with such people is with the ban hammer.
They don’t really seem to understand anything else. If enough sim owners add the officers of this group to their ban lists… the point will be driven home.
Side note: I agree with your comments about the Green Lanterns. I have known the group for over 5 years, and while no one is perfect, the GLs are a good example of an efficient and polite anti-griefer force… one that does not use their skills where they are not welcome. The GLs have been of benefit to many sim owners throughout the grid, for several years now. I have nothing but respect for that group. They are not vigilantes in any sense of the term, but private administrators of sim owner rights. A decent, capable police force is needed on SL (frankly, LL should have provided such themselves, long ago. Lazy bums). Since they don’t, groups such as the GLs serve a valuable purpose. Obviously, the JLU is not such a group.
Yawn Boring
Mar 9th, 2010
Not many griffers are focused on the JLU today, except maybe the high profile ones. Even then, those people aren’t much of a threat anymore.
Corsi is just as power hungry. I’ve seen him ban people numberous times, just for standing around. Although it is pretty funny listening to him on his cute little voice changer yell at someone on voice TEEHEE!
Judge Joker
Mar 9th, 2010
@Wayfinder
This Drama is not an advertisement exercise for GLs to become what the JLU hoped they could be, when they tried to gain a pseudo group for extra power privilege’s.
Thank you we all appreciate your very well laid out opinion, but
Corsi Mousehold is not the messiah he’s a very naughty boy!
And anything Corsi Mousehold says is taken with a grain of salt, I see Corsi defending GLE and GL’s and you defending GLs and advertising GLs as the better option to be a Linden approved force.
Which in my mind stinks of another Corsi power play for perhaps his spandex clad alt who is a GL member.
Drama is Drama and not an advertisement opportunity for GLs, we’ve had quite enough JLU spandex printed chest advertisements thank you!
This message was sponsored by Way Finder, we find a way to advertise so you don’t have too.
GEORGE ZIMMER, FOUNDER AND CEO OF MEN'S WAREHOUSE
Mar 9th, 2010
>power hungry crazed nutjobs
>Corsi
Pot meet Kettle. You’re talking about the guy wearing a mouse girl costume that aided and abetted the takeover of furnation and the theft of metric craploads of digital spacebux, which in your fantasy land is akin to human trafficking or something.
This article is nothing more than Corsi trying to gain back some relevance and street cred after he was run into the ground and humiliated by us.
General Drama
Mar 10th, 2010
Wayfinder
Mar 9th, 2010
“I have heard these sentiments echoed repeatedly throughout the SL community. In this instance, my first question is: why weren’t those “nut jobs” permabanned from the sim from the very start? ”
Dude, many people have abuse reported them. The G-team processes the abuse reports and, *surprise!* is buddies with JLU. Its like trying to file a civil rights complaint against a Klansman with a Sheriff in upstate Idaho, or a murder charge against a mob informant with the FBI… not gonna happen.
The AR’s get round filed, and if you complain that nothings being done, with concierge, they might go so far as warn you that further complaining will result in yourself getting banned.
It’s THAT corrupt. And if you create an account with the first name Tizzers, expect it to be banned post haste for no reason.
This is why Second Life is dying.
IntLibber Brautigan
Mar 10th, 2010
Until Linden Lab abolishes their “abuse” system and implements a transparent, open, and community run judicial system, compliant with Marsh v. Alabama, then abuse of everyone’s rights will continue.
Next time a Linden, or the client surveys, ask you what SL needs, tell them that: you want a public, transparent, open and community run judicial system in SL.
Nelson Jenkins
Mar 10th, 2010
@ General Drama
“Dude, many people have abuse reported them. The G-team processes the abuse reports and, *surprise!* is buddies with JLU.”
Welcome to SLH, apparently you missed a few posts back.
For the past month the RESI team has been methodically trashing JLU reports, and there’s a pretty big investigation going on (still, some things would have to be resolved in court, if at all, since LL doesn’t have any jurisdiction over third-party websites). As I’ve said before, most of the RESI team is laughing at these JLU folk, and no Lindens are siding with them anymore.
@ IntLibber Brautigan
“… a public, transparent, open and community run judicial system in SL.”
This sounds like a barrel of fun. Bureaucracy in SL! Hooray! I can see it now, television shows right in that “Judge _____” area of the day, but with digital fuckheads. Judge Jenkins. I like the sound of that.
Actually, won’t work, the Lindens are adamantly against democracy.
Wayfinder
Mar 10th, 2010
@ Judge Joker: You live up to your name. I don’t argue with people of such obviously uninhibited intellect. ; )
@ General: I can’t argue with you there at all. While I would find it difficult to believe that the JLU have an “in” with Linden Lab that would prevent their getting hit with ARs… I have indeed seen Linden Lab fail to enforce their own TOS for over 5 years now. I’ve seen them abuse innocent parties and let obviously guilty parties off scott free. But whatever their abuse process… it doesn’t prevent the sim owner from kicking “Kalel’s” butt off the sim on a permanent basis. Then I’d have abuse reported him anyway. (I also agree with his posting this blog to publicly expose such actions).
When push comes to shove, the responsibility for how a sim runs– and who’s allowed there, falls on the sim owner. As you said, we can’t count on Linden Lab for anything (and yes, that’s why they’re dying, even though they seem the only ones who can’t see that). Lack of customer support and in truth, outright customer abuse is becoming rampant in that company).
@ IntLibber: Totally agree. The current LL abuse report system gives no closer for victims and allows victimizers to hide behind a cloak of public anonymity. It allows Linden Lab to conduct community governance behind a veil of secrecy without public scrutiny. Their lame excuse of “rights of user privacy” has no legal basis whatsoever. Criminal acts are usually of public records. Griefing is a criminal act. So you’re absolutely right.
Robble Rubble
Mar 10th, 2010
Banning JLU members from your sims doesn’t help much when they come back on alts to continue spying on you.
Wayfinder
Mar 10th, 2010
Valid point Robble… and indeed one of the problems with Linden Lab’s “security” measures. They fail to have bans apply at alt and computer ID levels.
But at least it will get THAT jerk in THAT identity out of your face… and make a point that you can do that as many times as he has time to waste. Eventually, they get the point.
And Linden Lab CAN take someone out at computer ID level if they find cases of repetitious harassment– and they have.
I’m the last person to defend LL in any way. The company is pretty excusable. But bottom line… sim owners are not without a certain degree of power. Myself, I enjoy just freezing the clown there over and over and then laughing when our tines throw toilet paper at them until they decide to leave on their own. LOL
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia
Mar 10th, 2010
@Intlibber: I agree with your conclusion, but I think to argue for it successfully on the basis of Marsh v Alabama would be incredibly difficult. It didn’t work for Cyber Promotions back in the 90s, so I doubt it would work today. In court I don’t think you could successfully argue that virtual land in SL is any different than AOL’s server space.
The problem with the entire idea of community run governance (which I do support) is implementation. Do you really want a setup like what Lexie Linden set up where she sets up a clique of “mentors” who run around and cause trouble, while she herself never once showed up for her own open office hours the 4 or 5 times I tried to attend them over the past year and a half? I certainly don’t want people like that on a jury (and I wish LL would get rid of Lexie instead of Pathfinder).
Implementation is the place where the argument can be strengthened, though. Figure out a way to implement good resident run governance in such a way that it would be profitable for LL and then take it to them and I bet they’ll give it some serious consideration. How much do they spend on their Gteam? How much bad publicity does the Gteam create with bad decisions? How much more good publicity could they create on the cheap with resident run governance, if it’s done right?
I doubt LL will ever go for it, but if they do it, and do it right, they will do it for money, not for legal or ethical reasons.
Wayfinder
Mar 10th, 2010
(oops.. I mean the company is pretty INexcusable. LOL)
obviously
Corsi Mousehold
Mar 10th, 2010
Holy Crap. Well, first of all thanks for the award!
Second … For those of you speaking against me and my comment … Are you pro the JLU or just Anti everything?
For the record, I hate the JLU, I tolerate the presence of the GL, and I don’t care who builds in my sims as long as they get used.
If someone is banned from FurNation, there is generally a really good reason for it. That and we clear the ban list out every so often so chances are those that were banned at one point, aren’t banned now. There is only a small tiny handful of permabans. And even those names rotate out every so often.
Tuomy Boa
Mar 10th, 2010
JLU is SL equivalent of government sponsored terrorism
Sylauxe
Mar 10th, 2010
Congrats green lantern core, you got the thumbs up from a deviant beastophile. Your mothers would be so proud (go upstairs and tell her).
NebulaCS
Mar 10th, 2010
I personally think corsi stole furnation and is a complete and utter jack ass BUT that aside they are much smarter than most other sim owner and furs.
1. Back when my griefing group existed and took power, furnation was spared because corsi agreed not to eject or ban us as long as we didn’t grief there. Perfectly reasonable as most of my alts were ejected every where else on sight.
(no one will get this reference unless they know my current stand point and position on helping protect ll and making sugestions to *a certain linden* which so far have been taken. who notices the lsl lib flood 10 second crash doesnt work any more 
2. No JLU in the sim means there are no lols there. I loved messing with the JLU specifically, just because they are great lol cows. GLC how ever don’t even speak to you they just write reports and are done then leave on their merry way.
3. Furrys think griefing is funny and entertain it. I am serious I have had kara what ever her name is in furnation just sit by and let me spam cubes until ll banned me while she laughed her ass off. I never even bothered trying to grief furnation again. it is just not funny or entertaining.
4. Griefers want a negative reaction or some sort of entertainment, if they don’t get it then they get bored and log out. JLU provides that entertainment.
5. Corsi doesn’t even hang in furnation any more and the person running it currently is a tool. corsi you need to fix that shit or it will provide huge lols for what ever griefing groups are left…. if there are any i dont even see pn any more, then again i dont play any more.
6. Furnation has always been ruined. furr fags complain about furnation not beign as good as it was. news flash any place inhabited with furries is drama central and sucks major fucking cocks. Furries in IYC complain about how furnation sucks and furries in furnation complain how IYC sucks.
7. if linden labs really wants to stop griefers then they should hire a griefer as a linden to get the damn job done. get N3x15, that fail fag vince braver, or hell even me
8. last one furrfags are prehaps the most vile annoying creatures ever… on second life. in rl at furcons or whatever they are generally nice down to earth people but mixing them with the internet, they become slutty dumb shits.
and remember kiddos caps lock is cruise control for cool. NebulaCS signing off shutting the fuck up and going back to my open simulator where fags currently do not exsist and no on can say what i can and cant do with me sim.
Wayfinder
Mar 10th, 2010
Sylauxe, despite your spin and propaganda… the Green Lantern Core is an old and respected group on SL that handles policing of SL sims the way Linden Lab should have done in the first place. Unlike the JLU they are not a vigilante group. They follow the TOS, only work where they’re invited, and are polite as they can be. Their member go through an extensive training period in which they are told exactly how to handle griefers so that the sim and TOS is protected. The difference between the Green Lantern Core and JLU is night and day.
I’m not a member of the core. I’ve known members of that group for over five years. They are one of the oldest active groups on SL, and frankly don’t deserve to be drawn into this little drama-queen troll roll here. Those with ability and intelligence accomplish things of benefit to the community. Those without such skills, troll the others.
Tux Winkler
Mar 10th, 2010
@ Wayfinder . . . . . . *sigh*
“the Green Lantern Core . . .Unlike the JLU they are not a vigilante group.”
- Agreed, they are more like grannies do neighbourhood watch, with less wrinkles in their stockings.
“They follow the TOS, only work where they’re invited”
- Who invites them to Sandboxes (Cordova, Goguen, Island and Island Extension) for example.
“Their member go through an extensive training period in which they are told exactly how to handle griefers so that the sim and TOS is protected.”
- Hmm, yet their weapons system (power ring) can be used offensively, and has been (have had personal exp).
“The difference between the Green Lantern Core and JLU is night and day.”
- Yet GLE is both ?!??!
“They are one of the oldest active groups on SL, and frankly don’t deserve to be drawn into this little drama-queen troll roll here.”
- As GLE is a member of both then his use as a reference point is valid. I am sure there are more than just him too.
“Those with ability and intelligence accomplish things of benefit to the community. Those without such skills, troll the others.”
- That would depend on which community, in case you didn’t realise there are more than one! For example, all those little patches and upgrades to fix server exploits and bugs often come from the findings of the intelligent members of the griefer communities. Surely this action benefits all communities? Providing more benefit to many communities? Than say the JLU or GLC ever have? Yet these groups are shunned and blamed.
Just a thought, wouldn’t it be interesting to see just how many bugs and exploits have been fixed thanks to the findings of a ‘griefer’? Then do the same for the JLU and GLC, in fact all the lantern groups. I am guessing the ‘good guys’ don’t amount to much.
Sylauxe
Mar 10th, 2010
I was not aware calling someone stupid was propaganda :/
Wayfinder
Mar 10th, 2010
@ Tux: a humorous and interesting post. Grats on the humor. Other points, reply:
“For example, all those little patches and upgrades to fix server exploits and bugs often come from the findings of the intelligent members of the griefer communities. Surely this action benefits all communities? Providing more benefit to many communities? Than say the JLU or GLC ever have? Yet these groups are shunned and blamed. ”
Sorry, to me that’s like saying, “Your household security was just improved by the slimeball who broke in, stole your computer and raped your wife. You should thank the burgler.”
Seriously?
“- Who invites them to Sandboxes (Cordova, Goguen, Island and Island Extension) for example.”
Individual people who subscribe to the Lanterns for personal protection against griefers. They don’t just protect sims.. they protect people. And like any of us, nothing prevents them from taking action if they just happen to be where a griefer starts attacking people.
Honestly Tux, I am constantly amazed at people who defend the griefers and condemn those who protect folks against them. That is a seriously lame attitude.
“Yet GLE is both ?!??!”
I dunno who GLE is, but perhaps the Lanterns have the same policies my group has: we judge the individual. If GLE is performing both his Lantern and JLU responsibilities with proper ethics and conduct, the Lanterns would have no basis for ousting. If not… my group’s policies would be “banishment for breach of TOS outside of group borders”.
“- Hmm, yet their weapons system (power ring) can be used offensively, and has been (have had personal exp).”
Since the Lanterns usually do not have sim control abilities, it is sometimes necessary to restrain an offensive user for the protection of others. I should think that would be an obvious reality. It is unfortunately, one of the realities Linden Lab fails to recognize. But in all fairness… I have never, in my 5+ years on SL, seen a Lantern use their ring offensively unless they or a friend were under direct attack. In my book, once someone directly attacks, they have no room for complaint.
Again, I will emphasize that you defend the victimizer while condemning the victims. Seriously dude, reality check time. That is a twisted and unbalanced outlook on life. The Lanterns, while not perfect, do a pretty good job. When someone starts defending griefers and presenting them as “helping” the board, it becomes pretty clear to me I’m probably dealing with a habitual griefer in the first place. No one else seems to have that attitude.
If that’s not the case, then apologies, no offense intended. But I’m glad I don’t have people like you around me in real life. Your viewpoint is frankly scary.
“Let’s salute the guy who harms others, so that we may better our society!” Where have I heard that one before?
Wayfinder
Mar 10th, 2010
(Answer to above question: we see that in people who deify criminals like Jesse James and Billy the Kid and others… murderous criminals who are regularly glorified by individuals who fail to understand the reality of their deeds. A criminal is a criminal– regardless of the fact that some of his actions may unintentionally bring benefit. I don’t believe Billy the Kid inadvertently helping to increase the coffers of the movie industry justifies his activities.)
GreenLantern Excelsior
Mar 10th, 2010
@ Tux Winkler
“They follow the TOS, only work where they’re invited”
- Who invites them to Sandboxes (Cordova, Goguen, Island and Island Extension) for example.
No invitations are needed. We go there because the griefers go there. Sandboxes are prime griefer territory. Building and scripts are turned on in most sandboxes, and there are plenty of residents to annoy and newbies to intimidate. Griefers rez their objects and then listen for the sweet mooing of lulzcows. Some builders will leave, others will stay and try to cope with the lag, and the newbies won’t know what to do. If there are no sandbox rats in the area, an attack could immobilize a sandbox for hours. We swing by those target-rich environments periodically, ARing griefers if they attack and visiting with our builder friends if everything is quiet.
“Their member go through an extensive training period in which they are told exactly how to handle griefers so that the sim and TOS is protected.”
- Hmm, yet their weapons system (power ring) can be used offensively, and has been (have had personal exp).
Anyone hit by a GLC or JLU “bullet” in a non combat sim is the victim of an accident. Neither group attacks residents, since that is a violation of the Community Standards.
“The difference between the Green Lantern Core and JLU is night and day.”
- Yet GLE is both ?!??!
In the field, the groups are almost identical. Both groups go through extensive training, wear superhero uniforms, employ scanners to detect griefer objects, report CS and ToS violations, assist newbies, fly from place to place exuding massive amounts of coolness, etc. In recent months, the Green Lantern Core has pulled back from field operations except for a few members, but otherwise you can’t tell the groups apart just by looking at how they operate. I resigned from the GLC on December 9, 2009. Check my profile if you want to know the rest of that story.
“They are one of the oldest active groups on SL, and frankly don’t deserve to be drawn into this little drama-queen troll roll here.”
- As GLE is a member of both then his use as a reference point is valid. I am sure there are more than just him too.
Dual membership was much more common in the past than it is now. I hope to see that changing back in the future.
“Those with ability and intelligence accomplish things of benefit to the community. Those without such skills, troll the others.”
- That would depend on which community, in case you didn’t realise there are more than one! For example, all those little patches and upgrades to fix server exploits and bugs often come from the findings of the intelligent members of the griefer communities. Surely this action benefits all communities? Providing more benefit to many communities? Than say the JLU or GLC ever have? Yet these groups are shunned and blamed.
I must have misunderstood this. It sounded like you said that griefers benefit Second Life because they exploit bugs in the software. This would be about the same as saying that criminals benefit society by necessitating a better law enforcement presence. I’m sure that isn’t what you meant.
Just a thought, wouldn’t it be interesting to see just how many bugs and exploits have been fixed thanks to the findings of a ‘griefer’? Then do the same for the JLU and GLC, in fact all the lantern groups. I am guessing the ‘good guys’ don’t amount to much.
If the only measure of a resident’s worth is the number of “bugs and exploits” they point out, then you might be right, no Lantern is worthy. I think there are many other ways a person can provide value to the grid, over and above reporting software glitches. I suppose it all depends on your point of view, though.
IntLibber Brautigan
Mar 11th, 2010
I could develop an open web based justice system for SL pretty easily, that would be relatively immune to manipulation, would offer significant transparency. There would be no bureaucracy beyond judges, and they’d be paid via a loser pays mechanism. Judges rulings would be rated by the public to give each judge a reputation rating, and low ranked judges decisions can be appealed to higher ranked judges. Anybody could apply to be a judge, they’d have to pass a test to qualify.
Jurors would be randomly selected from daily logins. Those who don’t want to serve jury duty can pay a L$ fee. All those who beg out wind up paying for those who agree to serve. Once you’ve served jury duty you can’t serve again for x many days. Jurors could not have complainant, defendant, or any witness on their friends list, or in past private message history.
The judge would have access to server log data, as would prosecution and defendant counsel, these three would vote on what evidence to admit. They and jurors would participate in an open deliberation forum, third parties could file amicus statements.
This is all rather easy to code up and would operate pretty cleanly.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Mar 11th, 2010
>I could pay someone with my dad’s credit card to develop an open web based justice system for SL pretty easily.
fix’d
Sylauxe
Mar 11th, 2010
Anyone who seriously calls someone who builds a digital penis on someones digital land a criminal on the level of Billy the Kid or Jesse James really, really needs to take a few hours out of the day to go outside.
Tux Winkler
Mar 11th, 2010
@Wayfinder
I do not condone copybot nor the do I agree with those who copy a script from a website and spawns lolcubes everywhere.
I do think many labelled as griefers who happen upon faulty server code. I think, given a proper place where they can crash the sims and find other such faults with the linden server code would benefit everyone. In fact I think no one could refuse them rewards for find exploits which then get patched. Instead of being found and exploited until noticed.
At them moment, exploits are found and distributed because no one acknowledges the skill in finding them. Reward and acknowledge and the distribution would stop (or become ineffective after being patched). Either way SL is improved!
“Honestly Tux, I am constantly amazed at people who defend the griefers and condemn those who protect folks against them. That is a seriously lame attitude.”
- Maybe I am not making myself clear, I am only defending peoples right to create. Not those who use a script they found on the pn website. But this said, I, nor anyone outside of Linden Labs has the right to be the Judge (until Int gets approval =) ).
@GLE
What makes one person have anymore right than another to rez in a sandbox? As long as it is not a weapon in those areas which say no weapons. I have no issues with someone rezzing a cow, I have mute and I have derender. If you build in a sandbox you cannot expect exclusivity!
“Anyone hit by a GLC or JLU “bullet” in a non combat sim is the victim of an accident.”
- A bullet implies a weapon. Many sandboxes have a no weapon rule. Once more, you say: ‘Do as I say not as I do’ and ‘It is not breaking the rules if I do it’. Do you report each other for breaking the rules?
“I must have misunderstood this. It sounded like you said that griefers benefit Second Life because they exploit bugs in the software.”
- Yes that is exactly what I am saying, as soon as the patch is applied.
I will say this though, when approached, members of the GLC are quite friendly. Unlike the JLU who either refuse to speak or say ‘Oh you are Tux Winkler!”, as if it isn’t above my avatars head or something – XD.
Nelson Jenkins
Mar 11th, 2010
@ IntLibber Brautigan
“I could develop an open web based justice system for SL pretty easily, that would be relatively immune to manipulation, would offer significant transparency[, and would be a total waste of time.]”
We’re not talking little mommas’ boys that go out and knock some heads for a hit, we’re talking closet furfags with e-penises the size of your car. You’re wasting your time. Go do something like that for roleplay purposes and make some cash.
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
@Tux “I do think many labelled as griefers who happen upon faulty server code”
Ah I understand your meaning now. Sorry to have misjudged. I agree… and in truth admit that such accidental discoveries… as well as griefers exposing problems, do benefit the grid. While I will condone and accept the former, I imagine neither of us condone the later.
As an example: I have an old friend who is a “wild hare”. She’s not a griefer exaclty; she just dances to the beat of a different drummer. She took great delight in being invited to sims to try and break anything she can break. She helped us find many security leaks on our sim… and ultimately we provided that info to Linden Lab so it could be fixed grid wide. But I don’t really consider her a “griefer”… she was rather a person who used her natural chaotic tendencies to the benefit of others– knowingly.
Every time I needed something checked for security issues, she was the one I’d call. She was very good at finding the tinies of security leaks– and was of great benefit to our group.
Hilariously, because of her nature she would sometimes cross the line between “checking” and outright griefing. She didn’t necessarily mean to grief; she just couldn’t help it. So we’d ban her for 24 hours (with her “permission”), invite her back after she’d settled a bit, and things were back to normal. To this day she’s one of my favorite personalities on SL.
In like nature, there are several members of our group that are held in high respect… that started out as “griefers” who were in truth newbs who had no idea what was going on. We are always sure to check on such a possibility; we tend to ask questions first and shoot later. So you’re right; sometimes it’s just a misunderstanding. I imagine there have been times in the past that I would have been considered griefing– with no knowledge of such and no intent. I suspect we’ve all been there at one time or another. Comes with the territory of learning how SL works. : )
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
@ Salauxe: “Anyone who seriously calls someone who builds a digital penis on someones digital land a criminal on the level of Billy the Kid or Jesse James really, really needs to take a few hours out of the day to go outside.”
I don’t believe anyone said that. I certainly didn’t say that. I agree with you there is a difference there. But let me ask you something: is the tire slasher to be excused because he is not a rapist?
While there may be a difference of degree in their crimes, there is an element of core mentality those two people share: zero respect for the rights of others.
Someone mentioned above that people have a right to build whatever they want to build in sandbox. I would agree to this point: that right ends when they start interfering with the rights of others to do the same.
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
@ IntLibber:
I actually presented such an idea to Linden Lab several years ago. In fact, a licensed attorney presented to them the same concept, but both of us had the idea of a much easier-to-implement basis.
His idea was that as a licensed attorney, he could set up a legal arbitration system to handle online contracts between users, with binding records. His fee would be low and based on quantity. Filing a paper would cost L$x, arbitrating failure to comply would cost L$x. He had a great idea. LL gave him no cooperation.
My idea was that since LL couldn’t spend the $$$ and manpower to deal with judicial functions of an increasingly dense SL population… that they do what many professional forums do and assign trusted volunteers to handle such cases. I recommended rather than juries (which can be manipulated and are often prone to drama), to have a triad judge panel to consider situations of griefing and breach of in-world agreements. The “moderator” method of conducting a professional board is a proved industry method of handling issues without unnecessary expenditure.
I laid it all out for them in a very professional and sensible abstract. Never heard a word from them.
So your idea isn’t that far off. It’s just that Linden Lab couldn’t care less.
IntLibber Brautigan
Mar 11th, 2010
@Wayfinder,
I agree they couldn’t care less/are scared of letting skeletons out. They generally only give a shit when someone spanks them hard enough in a RL courtroom. The new viewer rules are a result of the settlement with Stroker, fer instance.
However it also displays a significant lack of vision. What makes SL more realistic than having a judicial system to go with the money, property, IP, etc? It adds a new area for residents/players to ‘level up’ and spend lots of personal time doing exactly what they get paid big bucks to do for work, or what they wish they could do for work.
Heck, if the coded judicial system is realistic enough, it could potentially be accepted by RL courts as an alternative dispute resolution process (ADR is all the rage for trimming court dockets, costs, and streamlining process) and make for a big market for us of SL professionally.
Jumpman Lane
Mar 11th, 2010
@ wayfinder LL didnt respond because your idea SUCKED. WHY WOULD THEY WASTE TIME MONEY AND EFFORT ARBITRATING IN WORLD DISPUTES (much less let a sap like u arbitrate them) when they would THEN become a party in a REAL world suit for meddling in sep parties disputes inthe first place. Second Life exists in the REAL world to Linden Lab. They KNOW (or their lawyers told them) that they could be liable in real courts and subject to the loss of ACTUAL MONEY (money they are actually earning).
u are a tard lol
D.F.
Mar 11th, 2010
So you want to have a jury duty based justice system like the joke that they have over in the US?
That’s a GREAT idea, then residents can sue eachother when a tree hangs too far over their e-lawn, or that no-one warned them thier McDonalds coffee attachement is too hot and they burned their avatar.
On the cost of whomever fails to see anything good coming from that, and refuse to play along with the joke by going in the jury. No, seriously, fantastic idea buddy.
I certainly hope the Lindens share my opinion.
Serious now for a moment, you are treating SL like it’s a new kind of country, that exists completely in virtual space, and should have a ‘government’ and a justice system… May I remind you that SL is a game, and if you dont like that name, a service that a company provides, and that LL doesnt HAVE to explain ANYTHING about thier actions to their customers?
Have you ever heard of an ISP that uses a jury of customers to end the service to those that break the ISP’s terms of service? Or rather, one that explains in detail the reason for deciding to, let’s say, change the prices?
Does your local taxi service let their customers decide the actions to take for the company?
Did you ever get called by your mobile phone provider for jury duty because they want to end the contract with a customer?
When you signed up for SL, you agreed to the LL TOS, which states that they dont owe anyone ANY explanation for anything. And you agreed to that knowingly when you signed up.
I woulndt be suprised, nor would I hold it against LL, if they permabanned you tomorrow, for no reason at all then for being annoying to them.
As you said, they generally dont give a shit. That’s because they dont have to give a shit about anything but making profit: like any other company in the world.
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
Ohhh Jumpman you’re so right, why, everyone’s arguments pale in comparison with your undeniable wit! Wow. Why the world doesn’t bow to your wisdom is beyond me! I’m just gasping in awe!
LOL LOL LOL Guy what are you, like, 12 years old? LOL LOL
Proof that guardians should keep better eye on their charges in the “special people” homes. ; )
Jumpman Lane
Mar 11th, 2010
ur ideas still suck and ur still dumb wayfinder. you are what they call
a pretenious mediocrity. say what ya want u still gotta live with that shit hehehehehehe
Alyx Stoklitsky
Mar 11th, 2010
>Heck, if the coded judicial system is realistic enough, it could potentially be accepted by RL courts
AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Jessica Holyoke
Mar 11th, 2010
is it really a *game* when it costs $1000 and $295 per month to rent server space? Is it really a game when someone can make a real life living using the platform?
Danziel Lane
Mar 11th, 2010
@ GLE
You said: “No invitations are needed. We go there because the griefers go there. Sandboxes are prime griefer territory. Building and scripts are turned on in most sandboxes, and there are plenty of residents to annoy and newbies to intimidate. Griefers rez their objects and then listen for the sweet mooing of lulzcows.”
That sounds to me, that – instead of many other comments – you act on the basis, that going there to fight griefers is a nesessity and the best way.
As I see it (and Nebula confirmed that from his own experience as a griefer) griefers often go where the police groups go, cause they have more fun there and get tons of attention.
Do police groups follow the griefers or do griefers follow the police groups?
I experienced a lot of sandboxes and teaching sims, where there is nothing that reminds anybody of a police group. Sometimes, not very often, a griefer comes along, and if he doen’t to anything lethal (and I do not accept rezzing boxes or particles as lethal), ignoring him takes his fun very quick.
So, tomorrow, he will go elsewhere, where he gets a discussion, gets some shouting and ARs and tons of screaming and avas appearing in funny clothing to amuse him.
So, as I see it the basic thought that griefers should be fought by groups that give them the attention they long for, basically is not the smartest.
I know a lot of sandboxes, where griefers don’t come, cause from how it looks nobody takes notice of them.
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
Jumpman! I see they let second grade out early today. Don’t worry though, in third grade they teach you how to spell and someday, you’ll even become a grown-up like everyone else here! ;D
Jumpman Lane
Mar 11th, 2010
your idea is dumb wayfinder, the long drawn out silence u elicited from The lab SHOULD clue u in to that u big damn dummy!
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
@Danziel. An insightful and valid post, Danziel. But it doesn’t handle the situations where griefers seriously disrupt everything going on around them– which is usually the case.
Example: a griefer that intentionally rezzes physics-heavy objects and lags the entire sim to a standstill. The person who rezzes self-replicating objects that travel all over the sim and get in the way of other builds. The dumbo who wears a 3 ft dong (obvious issues there) and walks around ramming in to people (even Linden Lab considers sexual harassment as instant ban territory).
It’s easy to say “just ignore him”… but most griefers that I’ve seen are not ignorable. That’s the point; if they could be ignored, they would be ignored.
So while I’m 50/50 on ‘police forces’… to say they shouldn’t be on SL is in my opinion, trying to limit THEIR right to play their chosen role. The question I have to ask is: if you don’t like such groups, why not just ignore them? Apply your griefer philosophy to those who regularly fight them, and just ignore the whole lot?
Some people choose to be griefers. Others choose to be the heroes that protect the victims. It’s all part of the “game”. And yes, Jessica, most people admit that SL is a “society” rather than a game. You’re right. Which, brings up the point of the reason these people are here. Every society has criminals. A society without some kind of police force quickly degrades into chaos. Since Linden Lab fails / refuses to provide an adequate policing agency in public areas… it falls to groups such as the Lanterns to play their chosen role… which usually is simply educating and informing those present at the time in how to protect themselves from further abuse (namely, either sit on an object or go elsewhere), and abuse reporting the griefer so that LL’s inadequate and arbitrary “justice” system can come into play.
The Lanterns do a pretty good job of this. I don’t classify them as vigilantes… I classify them as an earnest-intent protection group that is our society’s direct answer to griefers. Other groups, not so much. They are vigilantes and no better than the griefers themselves.
But I don’t think one can actually say, “ignore the griefers and they’ll go away” (because they don’t) and then turn around and condemn the ones who fight against the griefers. I mean, either we ignore BOTH groups and remain neutral in the matter, or we choose sides. I have known members of the Lanterns for over five years, and while– like RL police– they aren’t perfect and sometimes do make mistakes, overall they do a pretty decent job that Linden Lab USED to do but now totally fails to do.
That said, on private sims, here’s how WE handle griefers: we freeze the childish morons in their place, and keep freezing them over and over and over again, we invite our “tinies” to come over and throw toilet paper at them, take pictures and post it on our blogs with great big titles of “JAKE GRIEFER DEFEATED BY BUNNIES”… then have everyone present abuse report their butts to the gills (it’s amazing how much an impact at Linden Lab five abuse reports has on a matter).
All in all, we turn the griefing into an enjoyable public event and give the tinies their thrill of the day. As for the griefers… pffft. Just like blog trolls they’re intellectual children who have neither the imagination or maturity to actually accomplish something worthwhile with their lives. If their limited hours on earth are only worth harassing other people– these are seriously sad and useless individuals. Like a friend of mine said, “A waste of valuable air.”
I verbally spar with Jumpman above (and numerous other trolls in the past) because that’s apparently all he understands and frankly, it’s hilarious. But in truth, I pity people who can’t blog without insulting others, can’t write a sentence with reasonably decent spelling, and whose every word is obvious brain leak. What a wasted lifetime when they could be doing something far more beneficial.
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
BTW as a thought, just to put this in perspective:
We all understand why Linden Lab cannot personally police the entire grid. The manpower and wage factor would be staggering. Yeah, we get it. No argument there.
However, that doesn’t let Linden Lab off the hook. They still have the responsibility to police their grid, whether they personally can do so or not.
How to do this then? Well here’s a start: give the Lanterns some power.
For example, they could set up their public sandboxes to grant Green Lantern members ESTATE MANAGER powers (or at least sufficient power to freeze a griefer right in his tracks). That’s what private sim owners do: we set up estate managers to handle griefer issues.
Then let the Lanterns VOLUNTEER their time to patrol sandboxes. If the Lanterns had the ability to freeze and instantly ban any griefer that rears his childish head… the griefers would start disappearing. It does a griefer no good to be faced down, instantly frozen, and repeatedly kept in that position until he’s banned and abuse reported. It doesn’t fulfill his need for attention, it doesn’t allow him to do anything but stand there helplessly… and so they would start leaving sandboxes alone.
Why hasn’t Linden Lab done this? I have no idea. I don’t understand the thought behind most of Linden Lab’s moronic decisions. I see a company that is blatantly suicidal in nature and apparently clueless to that eventuality. Just thought I’d mention this is ONE way Linden Lab could shore up their security, while giving groups like the Lanterns some validity and kicking griefer butt all at the same time. Simple solution. Which makes Linden Lab’s failure to institute such a blatant case of “We don’t care, at all.”
Danziel Lane
Mar 11th, 2010
@Wayfinder.
You said: “An insightful and valid post, Danziel. But it doesn’t handle the situations where griefers seriously disrupt everything going on around them– which is usually the case.”
Well, if everything stands still on my sim, I would definitely not call a police group, cause they had no chance to rez and do anything.
It only needs one person with land owner power to do something. More that one would even cause more lag and would – following my thoughts – be attractive to griefers. Avas that watch over my sandbox are avas with no tag and looking as average as possible. They are the last to be attacked by the griefers and so get lots of time to sit down and do what has to be done.
Half of my sim allows building and scripting and I had not even one griefer during the last 6 months, though a lot of avas found out, it’s a nice sandbox for them.
You also gave examples: “Example: a griefer that intentionally rezzes physics-heavy objects and lags the entire sim to a standstill. The person who rezzes self-replicating objects that travel all over the sim and get in the way of other builds. The dumbo who wears a 3 ft dong (obvious issues there) and walks around ramming in to people (even Linden Lab considers sexual harassment as instant ban territory).”
As I said in a former comment, my first reaction is to question if the griefer’s action is lethal (means: bringing me myself into trouble with the TOS) In this case I need a few seconds to take a snapshot, eject them with no warning and comment and then think about an AR.
If my sim stands still, a group would even do more lag damage. It’s the additional avas that make it worse. And really, if I have to restart the sim because of such attacks of objects … what major harm is really done?
And that big dong … well I cannot allow it on a PG sim or if kid avas are present. That means (look above) that guy gets kicked with as little action and drama as possible (preferably no comment at all).
But my main question to GLE still is open:
Do the police groups follow the griefers or do the griefers follow the police groups to get more fun of how they like to play the “game”?
Whenever in the last 3 years I saw a police group in action, there was a lot of unnecessary lag caused by their avas and scripts, a lot of drama and yelling and shouting, and always a lot of misunderstandings, cause the ejected the wrong avas. And I personally hate this kind of action followed by an hour of hatred discussions and drama much more than 10 minutes of a sim restart.
Wayfinder
Mar 11th, 2010
@Danziel: “Whenever in the last 3 years I saw a police group in action, there was a lot of unnecessary lag caused by their avas and scripts, a lot of drama and yelling and shouting, and always a lot of misunderstandings, cause the ejected the wrong avas. And I personally hate this kind of action followed by an hour of hatred discussions and drama much more than 10 minutes of a sim restart.”
I surely agree. The ideal police group instructs bystanders how to defend themselves (many in public sandboxes are newbs and have no idea what’s going on), take names and pictures and abuse report the griefer. That’s the primary service they offer. If they can cage the griefer and send him off into the ethersphere… it’s my experience that even Linden Lab takes a look at the Green Lantern title and immediately recognizes what’s going on. The Lanterns seem to have very little trouble from Linden Lab when it comes to TOS issues; LL knows what’s going down there.
But in all the instance you described above Danziel, you speak of policing your own sim. That’s the big difference. It’s EASY to police your own sim, where you have total estate powers. You can freeze, eject, ban, and abuse report all within a 5 minute period.
Where the Lanterns come in handy are public areas where newbs are trying to build. Such people have no concept of griefers, are easily upset and frustrated when they are attacked and have no idea what to do. (We all remember what it was like when we were newbs, yes?). In public sandboxes, where Linden Lab has totally failed to empower anyone or provide any moderator system at all… the Lanterns fill a needed void. They help newbs understand what’s happening and– even if they don’t stop the griefer or solve the problem… they do let newbs know that there are those out there “fighting the forces of evil”. And ultimately, since the Lanterns do know how to use the TOS and abuse system, the griefers wind up getting their butts kicked… even if we don’t hear about it (another slack point of Linden Lab, “privacy” for criminal elements. LOL. What a bunch of maroons).
What most folks don’t realize is that Linden Lab DOES have ways of identifying users beyond ISP and user names. In cases of repeated griefing using several avatars, they do have the ability (if they choose to use it) to ban a user at computer-ID level (in other words, they identify the computer the griefer is using and shut that computer out of SL).
So for private sims (which is your case) certainly freezing, banning, ejecting and abuse reporting a griefer is far better than employing a force such as the Lanterns. But in public areas where people are basically defenseless newbs… that’s where the Lanterns serve their best purpose.
Where there will be criminals, there will be selfless heroes to battle them. That’s the whole concept of the “super hero” genre. We have to remember the Lanterns aren’t just a “police” force; they are people playing the role of the Green Lanterns. I believe them as entitled to play that role as any other on SL. : )
Henry Darkthief
Mar 11th, 2010
I got interested in this whole JLU thing not because it deals with griefing and vigilante crap, but because someone has taken it upon themselves to keep secret files on other people. THAT is the issue to me, not the actions of a gang of wannabe Dog the Bounty Hunters acting as griefer vigilantes.
And those files are HUGE!! Considering its basically a text file, where 10 pages amounts to about one kilobyte, the compressed ZIP file is almost 50 MEGAbytes!!
Oh, and to the idea of introducing some sort of court/justice system, NO WAY. Courts spawn to LAWYERS!!!!