Corsi Mousehold: JLU Are Power Hungry Crazed Nutjobs

by Alphaville Herald on 09/03/10 at 12:38 pm

[Corsi Mousehold has been awarded the “commie” or comment-of-the-week award for her explanation of why the Justice League Unlimited superheros are not welcome in Furnation. The award winning comment is reproduced below. ]

Here’s a bit of a story. IN years past the JLU were a welcomed member of the FurNation community. They didn’t bother anyone and no one really bothered them. That was until we were under a griefer attack and the JLU came over to ‘assist’ and the first thing they did was report ME to the lab for griefing. They approached me and yelled at me for causing the issue. I asked them why they reported me of all people. By this time I had already deleted all the offensive material. They told me that I was the one putting it all out and they had seen me doing it. Basically they had watched me selecting objects to return them. They were extremely rude to me at the time and informed me that they would have reports go up on me. I contacted Kalel and he too said I was being reported and then for harassment as well. I was not rude to these people at all. It was several days later that I was contacted by Kalel informing me that the ‘charges’ had been dropped because they did not realize I was the sim owner. My response of course was to point to the info hub I had in the center of the sandbox that had my name clearly displayed as the sim owner and if his comrades had taken a moment to look they would have seen I was in the admin team.

He called me ungrateful and abuse reported me again. I was informed of this by him as well as he had several of his friends make the same report. All reports were dismissed by the GOV team as illegitimate. Soon I had JLU members ‘patrolling’ the sandboxes and abuse reporting anyone that they felt was disobeying my rules. They started to get several members of my community banned. I was forced to add a new sim rule that the JLU were not allowed in the sim for any reason. When they had seen this, I was reported again for griefing. Again the report was dismissed.

In the end I was approached months later by Green Lantern Corps asking if it was okay for them to be there. They apologized for the treatment the JLU had given me and asked if they would be allowed to just come and build.

Green Lantern Corps are allowed to visit and act if they wish. But they are not allowed to be in tag or act as a part of the Corps while visiting. If they are the subject of a griefing they are to come to me and I would take care of it. They can then file all the reports they like.

In the end the JLU are a bunch of power hungry crazed nutjobs that think being an SL Police force gives them the right to get away with whatever they want. The GLC on the other hand have always been very respectful to me and my residents.

381 Responses to “Corsi Mousehold: JLU Are Power Hungry Crazed Nutjobs”

GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 11th, 2010

@ Tux Winkler

“What makes one person have anymore right than another to rez in a sandbox? As long as it is not a weapon in those areas which say no weapons. I have no issues with someone rezzing a cow, I have mute and I have derender. If you build in a sandbox you cannot expect exclusivity!”

I’ll do even better than that. I don’t care if you rez or carry guns around the sandbox. As long as you don’t shoot anyone, you’re not violating the Community Standards.

“Anyone hit by a GLC or JLU “bullet” in a non combat sim is the victim of an accident.”
- A bullet implies a weapon. Many sandboxes have a no weapon rule. Once more, you say: ‘Do as I say not as I do’ and “It is not breaking the rules if I do it’. Do you report each other for breaking the rules?

Intentionally shooting someone is assault. We do have some sim cleaners that fire large “bullets” to push physical objects into the ocean. We need to be more careful using these when residents are nearby, or consider not using them at all.

“I will say this though, when approached, members of the GLC are quite friendly. Unlike the JLU who either refuse to speak or say “Oh you are Tux Winkler!”, as if it isn’t above my avatars head or something – XD.”

If you were maintaining the GLC’s leaked confidential documents on your server, they might not be too friendly with you either.

@ Danziel Lane

“As I see it (and Nebula confirmed that from his own experience as a griefer) griefers often go where the police groups go, cause they have more fun there and get tons of attention.

Do police groups follow the griefers or do griefers follow the police groups?”

I believe the peacekeepers follow the griefers. I like to hang around in the Linden sandboxes to chat with the residents and see what they are building. It’s also handy to be there in case a griefer attack starts. Although it seems like the sandboxes are always in turmoil, most of the time they are peaceful and fun places to be. I do not believe that griefers survey the sandboxes looking for peacekeepers and move on if they don’t find any. I also don’t believe that griefers wait patiently in the sandboxes until peacekeepers arrive before commencing their attacks.

“So, as I see it the basic thought that griefers should be fought by groups that give them the attention they long for, basically is not the smartest.”

The alternative, as I see it, is to allow griefers to rez whatever they want without opposition and hope they will get tired of it and go away. They won’t get tired of it, believe me. They never do. There is always someone in the area who will take offense and scream at them. That, not ARs from peacekeepers, is what the griefers want. The solution as I see it is to write the reports as soon as possible so LL can remove the problem and the griefer. That way, the residents get back to building without being interrupted by Goatse Man.

“Whenever in the last 3 years I saw a police group in action, there was a lot of unnecessary lag caused by their avas and scripts, a lot of drama and yelling and shouting, and always a lot of misunderstandings, cause the ejected the wrong avas.”

Some “police” groups I’ve heard of have this problem, but no legitimate peacekeeper group that I know ever has drama and yelling. And by the way, we never ever shoot or orbit anyone. That’s assault.

@ Wayfinder

“For example, they could set up their public sandboxes to grant Green Lantern members ESTATE MANAGER powers (or at least sufficient power to freeze a griefer right in his tracks). That’s what private sim owners do: we set up estate managers to handle griefer issues.”

That was the idea of “GTeam Mentors” that Linden Lab discussed with JLU. It never went anywhere. I suspect someone at LL decided they didn’t want one group of residents to have any kind of power over another group of residents. They want employees (or contractors) doing that. From an overall standpoint I think that’s a good policy. My personal feeling is that now that I’m within striking range of having a thousand ARs written, I’m proven to be one of the good guys, and as such it wouldn’t hurt to give me certain estate powers on Linden land. Just allow me to eject and ban a griefer from the region and return his stuff. That would clean up the sim, and LL can ban the bad guy without ever having to come and see his work.

(it looks like Wayfinder already made most of my points for me while I was AFK)
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia

Mar 11th, 2010

@GLE:

I’ve never paid much attention to you before, but you are displaying such a poor grasp of how SL works that I need to straighten some things out for you:

I run a PG non-commercial academic sim with a well trafficked, well patrolled sandbox. I have rules for my sandbox, as do most land owners who run sandboxes. I spent a long time crafting these rules to fit my community. I even made architectural changes to fit the community demands for different rules. I also use the power of interpretation judiciously when applying such rules to make sure that people in my sandbox who are there to work do not get disturbed.

You saying that you can go to a sim uninvited, shoot people, particle spam them, shove their objects off the edge of sims with scripted weapons, log their conversations without permission from LL and mass AR spam people who are in violation of “Community Standards” is complete hogwash.

For example, you said, “As long as you don’t shoot anyone, you’re not violating the Community Standards.” In my sandbox, that is only a violation of my community standards if you are at a certain elevation. I made that decision, as is my right as a sim owner. If you were to show up and start ARing and assaulting my community members over something like that I’d ban and AR you so hard your WoW toon would feel it. I don’t take kindly to claim jumpers who try to rule my land, I don’t care how fancy their spandex is.

You and your cronies do not have rights to enforce your own community standards on sims that you do not own and were not invited to. Your entire mission is completely unethical and I do hope that LL sees the light and kills your account.

If you insist on making and enforcing rules like this I suggest you pay for your own sim, where you can make and enforce the rules as you see fit. I highly doubt that somebody like you could build an active community, but it would be fun to watch you try.
GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 11th, 2010

@ Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia

“I’ve never paid much attention to you before, but you are displaying such a poor grasp of how SL works that I need to straighten some things out for you:”

If you will reread my comments you will see that I was talking about the Linden sandboxes (“I like to hang around in the Linden sandboxes…”). Generally I don’t patrol in private sims unless the owners have requested it. It’s too hard to keep track of everyone’s different rules, and people should control their own parcels anyway. If they’re having big problems and need help, we will be glad to go and assist, though. Sometimes we will be invited to join the sim owner’s group so we have parcel powers and can take care of things that way. I can think of several groups where we’ve been invited in as officers and thanked profusely for our help.

You can do whatever you like with your own sim, and more power to you, but everything I said was related to the Linden Lab public sandboxes. So now it’s time for your Emily Litella impression:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Litella
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia

Mar 11th, 2010

@GLE: You are lying. Your “object pusher” gun wouldn’t be much use on the mainland where all the sims are directly adjacent, but they would be very useful on a private sim that is surrounded by void. There would be no reason to have such a weapon if you constrained your actions to mainland.

Furnation is not mainland, yet your people have caused trouble there.

Oh, I can hear it now: JLU causted trouble for the furries, and is not Green Lantern Corps, right? Well, if that is true, and the JLU aren’t your people, then why did you have to apologize to Corsi for their actions before she would allow you onto her sim?

You obviously particle spam, as is shown in this article: http://alphavilleherald.com/2010/03/corsi-mousehold-jlu-are-power-hungry-crazed-nutjobs.html#comment-56280

You and the JLU are one and the same. You do the same unethical things and you copy each other’s style while doing it. Wearing spandex and being a superhero as an homage would be one thing, but that isn’t what you do. I mean, you could have been anything and instead of creating something you could be proud of you stole DC’s IP. You’re a walking billboard for some huge new media mega corporation, and you’re breaking the law to do it. That’s messed up. If it’s one thing I can’t abide in a place like SL it’s lack of originality. When the sky’s the limit you damn well oughtta be doing something new or you’re just sucking bandwidth.
Tux Winkler

Mar 11th, 2010

@ Wayfinder

“Well here’s a start: give the Lanterns some power.”
- You have got to be joking, we all know what a total failure the Mentors was. Too many of them power crazed idiots (often JLU too). No volunteer group should have any more power than average Jo (actually anyone named Jo should be forbidden from connecting – but thats a personal thing). If anyone is to be given power, then do as google does. Have RL training seminars, so people can be assessed and then qualified. This way, people are not anonymous VR junkies with visions of power.

@ GLE

“As long as you don’t shoot anyone, you’re not violating the Community Standards.”
- I have never shot anyone in a public area. Yet I have been shot by JLU and Lanterns.

“Intentionally shooting someone is assault. We do have some sim cleaners that fire large “bullets” to push physical objects into the ocean. We need to be more careful using these when residents are nearby, or consider not using them at all.”
- Unintentionally shooting someone in a Linden sim with a no weapon rule is still against the rules. Personally I would recommend not using them. A weapon is a weapon no matter how you glorify it!

“I’m proven to be one of the good guys, and as such it wouldn’t hurt to give me certain estate powers on Linden land. Just allow me to eject and ban a griefer from the region and return his stuff.”
- So you are judge an jury? Come on, this comment I would expect from Kalel, but not you. You was almost on the right track, see griefing – report – wait for Linden. Simple.

“If you were maintaining the GLC’s leaked confidential documents on your server, they might not be too friendly with you either.”
- You have confidential documents too? Interesting . . . .

Anyways, my opinion is this:
Should the GLC (or any superhero antigriefer group for that matter) wish to perform ‘duties’ then clarity of policy is a must. There is no need to mass tp in – this would only increase the enjoyment of a proper griefer.
Do not use modified popgun scripts to attack prims or avatars on land you do not own. Its still a weapon, it still pisses me off getting hit with one. An accident my rear end!
Do not rez those stupid shields on top of people to show affect. As most of you use Emerald and go phantom its usage is purely for role play!
If you really want to help, spend some time, create a help group or tutor group. Teach people to cope. Even go so far as to contact W-hat or the like, ask to have griefing practice by visiting Baku and having some goons grief you. Not all those labelled as griefers are bad people.
Do not wish or hope for power, it makes you sound like someone else I could mention. Elevating you abilities will serve only one purpose, it will make you a target.
Do, go meet the people you are labelling as griefers. Because, I think you would be plesantly surprised. And for the record, secondary labelling is stupid. Calling someone a griefer because of an afro is bad, but then to go on to complain about their RL appearance and/or lifestyle is crazy. (NOTE I haven’t heard GLE do this, but others have).
Finally, never . . . never, say you go to sandboxes because the griefers go there. It makes you sound like a stalker. Which is against Linden Law.
Henry Darkthief

Mar 11th, 2010

As screwed up as LL is, who the hell appointed JLU or GLC to do their job in the first place? They are nothing more than self-appointed “protectors” of the ToS and CS of SL. Just like the KKK are self appointed “protectors” of racial purity.
Wayfinder

Mar 11th, 2010

@Henry: Don’t you think likening the GLC to the KKK is just a little bit jumping the shark? LOL. I mean, seriously…
Wayfinder

Mar 11th, 2010

@ Tux: “You have got to be joking, we all know what a total failure the Mentors was. Too many of them power crazed idiots (often JLU too). No volunteer group should have any more power than average Jo (actually anyone named Jo should be forbidden from connecting – but thats a personal thing). If anyone is to be given power, then do as google does. Have RL training seminars, so people can be assessed and then qualified. ”

That goes without saying. Moderators on professional boards are trained to do the job. You don’t just assign anyone to jump in. As for the Mentors… they were never intended to be given “power” of any kind. Originally the Mentors were a group of volunteers that spent their time teaching others. They held events, taught classes, assisted others.

I didn’t keep up along the way, but it doesn’t surprise me at all that there came to exist an abuse of power somewhere. Whether that abuse was in the mentors themselves… or a Linden Lab employee (I’ve sure seen a few of those abuse power)… had the Mentors been conducted properly, such abuse would not have happened.

That’s the only problem and I agree with you Tux: Linden Lab seems to have a history of half-baked, knee-jerk solutions to very real problems. Often, those “solutions” are as bad as the problem itself (if not worse). We’re seeing a lot of this start to come to the fore right now, and likely will see more of such over the upcoming year. If SL survives at ALL under current leadership, I’ll be amazed.
Danziel Lane

Mar 11th, 2010

@ GLE
You said:
“I believe the peacekeepers follow the griefers.”

Thoses little words… So, it’s a belief.
Scientists, including psychologists, know very well, that their action might have influence on the process they watch at. To get away from believing, one should look at what real (and I mean real) damage is done in a Linden sandbox, when policegroups/peacekeepers do not interfere.
Scientists know, that calling someone peacekeeper is often describing the opposite of the truth. Some weird people even had the idea to use the name peacekeeper for guns and weapons.

A name and a dress does not make someone one of the good ones. And as I read, you insist, that it’s not a weapon, if you rez moving physical objects and push objects. It IS a weapon and you should be ARed for using it in a Linden sandbox. It is like people that build a deadly missile like the LGM 118A and call it “Peacekeeper”.

GLE, you said: “Although it seems like the sandboxes are always in turmoil, most of the time they are peaceful and fun places to be.”

I see it the opposite way: Although the (Linden) sandboxes are peaceful and fun places to be, sometimes there comes a griefer. And griefers come in crowds, when they know they will have fun with screaming newbies and even more with a bunch of policegroups/peacekeepers.

GLE, you said: “I do not believe that griefers survey the sandboxes looking for peacekeepers and move on if they don’t find any.”

Again belief.

I have seen it. I’ve been there. I’ve read Nebula’s comment about this. I’ve seen griefers’ attacks in Linden sandboxes and in community gateway sandboxes with some screaming of the newbies, and calm and smart reaction of the olders. “Sit down somewhere and have a laugh was, what they said to the newbies.” 10 minutes later the griefers were gone.
Very very often, when I talk to those experienced residents that witnessed the same action, they say: “We do not file ARs for this, cause they would return tomorrow with 2 alts.”
Griefers go where the fun is. Screaming newbies are fun, but only for a few minutes. Getting ejected and ARed is fun (for them) and you deliver this sort of fun to them.

Like you believe in the usefulness of ARs, they believe in their fun taking some of your life time, makiing your adrenalin pump work and see you again tomorrow for the same fun with an alt.

GLE, you said: “I also don’t believe that griefers wait patiently in the sandboxes until peacekeepers arrive before commencing their attacks.”

No, as I’ve seen it, they start griefing. But read their chat, when policegroups/peacekeepers appear. And listen to the drama, when those keepers of the peace (and fun) make a little mistake.

GLE, you said: “The alternative, as I see it, is to allow griefers to rez whatever they want without opposition and hope they will get tired of it and go away.”

First of all: why shouldn’t they? Griefers are allowed to rez objects like all other residents. They are not griefers by definition or because you call them griefers, they become griefers by their actions that interfere with the fun of other residents that keeps the others from using or enjoying SL.

GLE, you said: “They won’t get tired of it, believe me.”

I’ve seen it the other way. I watched and I’ve seen them getting tired of it and go. ARs are not the solution, as they come back with 2-3 alts tomorrow. If you write an AR, you shoot a name, not the person.
If you want to help and protect the newbies, teach them to react in a smart and cool way: “If a griefer comes, sit down and laugh at them. Do nothing else. Do not talk to or about them. Just laugh and have fun.”

GLE, you said: “The solution as I see it is to write the reports as soon as possible so LL can remove the problem and the griefer. That way, the residents get back to building without being interrupted by Goatse Man.”

Don’t you see that you contradict yourself? And that the AR system is no weapon against the griefers? It takes me 2 minutes to come into SL with a new alt. If you AR them they will return with a different name. That Kalel guy thought harvesting private data in his database would do it, but that in first place is unlawful, and after that it is disrespect to the privace of other residents of SL and there are too many mistakes and errors in such a collection to do any good.

GLE, you said: “My personal feeling is that now that I’m within striking range of having a thousand ARs written, I’m proven to be one of the good guys, and as such it wouldn’t hurt to give me certain estate powers on Linden land. Just allow me to eject and ban a griefer from the region and return his stuff. That would clean up the sim, and LL can ban the bad guy without ever having to come and see his work.”

You are proven to be one of the good ones?
Sorry, but those people that say something like that are those I fear most.
Is there no doubt at all that your 1000 ARs might have caused 2000-3000 new alts of griefers? Is there no doubt that half of the ARs might have been unnecessary or a misunderstanding? Is there no doubt, that you ARed people that complained about being hit and pushed by your sim cleaning weapon/peacetool?
1000 ARs do not prove to be good, but prove that you are not able to find smart and flexible solutions. 1000 ARs prove that you don’t have ideas of deescalating and mediation. 1000 ARs prove that we paid the Lindens to pay their employees hundreds of hours on their job to look after your ARs instead of doing something more creative for us.

If I would ever get near the idea of giving a resident extra powers about others (an idea that I stand far away from), those residents would have to prove, that they are full aware of their skills to err, that they take much time to understand and respect the other side, and that they proved very often to be masters of deescalation and a mediating and settling way of communication.
And sorry, GLE, what I read from you paints a totally different picture, though, different from Kalel, you at least discuss your ideas
with us.

To the others: Sorry for a long comment.
It will not help, I know. You cannot discuss belief. I know.
But I couldn’t resist.
Henry Darkthief

Mar 12th, 2010

@ Wayfinder Its just a matter of extremes *grins* Gets the point across, though. Members of the KKK likely believe they are working for the greater good, don’t they?
Sylauxe

Mar 12th, 2010

Comparing the JLU or the Green Lanterns to the KKK is even more retarded than comparing griefers to people who slash tires.
GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 12th, 2010

@ Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia

” You are lying. Your “object pusher” gun wouldn’t be much use on the mainland where all the sims are directly adjacent…”

LOL, who said anything about the mainland. Let’s try this again, slower and louder this time. If you will reread my comments you will see that I was talking about the Linden sandboxes (“I like to hang around in the Linden sandboxes…”). What do the main Linden Sandboxes have in common? And the ones I mean are Sandbox Cordova, Sandbox Goguen, Sandbox Newcomb, Sandbox Wanderton, Sandbox Island, and Sandbox Island Extension. They all border the ocean, don’t they? Now why might someone shoot a physical object at a physical griefer object in one of these sims? Maybe to push it into the ocean and free up space for the residents?

“Furnation is not mainland, yet your people have caused trouble there.”

Don’t believe everything you hear.

“You obviously particle spam, as is shown in this article:”

That’s a link to this article.

“You and the JLU are one and the same.”

Thank you. I’m proud to be a member.

@ Tux Winkler

“So you are judge an jury? Come on, this comment I would expect from Kalel, but not you. You was almost on the right track, see griefing – report – wait for Linden. Simple.”

It makes perfect sense to me. In RL I’m an unpaid volunteer, and I save my agency a ton of money that they would have to pay a salaried employee if not for me. I hold costs down by taking on some of the more mundane work and freeing up the employees to do what they do best. Recruiting unpaid volunteers is a proven cost cutting measure that’s used by many companies and agencies. You train them, you watch them closely for a little while, and after they prove themselves, you turn them loose and get back to more important things.

“Do not rez those stupid shields on top of people to show affect.”

Shields aren’t much good against griefers. Sitting on the ground is more effective. The only time I ever rez a shield is to impress someone.

“Do, go meet the people you are labelling as griefers. Because, I think you would be plesantly surprised.”

I’ve tried that over and over again. Sometimes it works but mostly it doesn’t.

@ Danziel Lane

Most of your statements are personal opinions. I disagree with almost all of them. I’ve been doing this for three and a half years now, and I can tell you that you will never see me sitting and laughing while a griefer does whatever he wants. I might be sitting, but it will only be for about 30 seconds while I write the AR on him. If I teach sandbox newbies anything at all about self defense, it will be how to write the most effective AR to get rid of the griefers in the shortest possible amount of time.

We once TPed into Sandbox Cordova during a big griefer attack. After we reported it and watched LL clean the place up, the griefer came back with an alt and complained to us that we wrote ten ARs on him in seventy seconds. I just consider that he chose his preferred SL hobby and I chose mine. I’m the one with a three and a half year old avatar, while he’s back in n00b clothing. Honestly, I can’t see how that could be enjoyable for him, and I believe that when he grows up, he will outgrow the griefing. But for now, it’s cat versus mouse, and the house rules favor the cat.
Wayfinder

Mar 12th, 2010

/me suddenly realizes that about half the commenters here are pretty much trolls / griefers themselves, and bows out of this moronic adolescent pissing contest. Far better things to do with my life. ; )
Henry Darkthief

Mar 12th, 2010

@ Sylauxe

Depends on how one feels about people running around causing mayhem as self-appointed protectors and vigilantes.
Danziel Lane

Mar 12th, 2010

Another long one.
I promise it’s the last one.

@GLE:
You said: “Most of your statements are personal opinions. I disagree with almost all of them.”

Sure you do. Let me summarize:
You disagree with the scientific way to prove a theory by also check the opposite (or just another) way, when it comes to interfere in human behaviour.
You disagree with the idea, that there might be a few misjudged ARs in a number of 1000.
You disagree with the statement that a name and a dress alone does not make someone one of the good ones.
You disagree with the statement that “Peacekeeper” is not a good name for an intercontinental missile.
You disagree with the experience, that real griefers have no problems to return with alts.
You disagree with the experience that griefers go on their own, when there is nothing but a little screaming of newbies.
You disagree with the idea that Nebula’s comments are interesting to read, as they show the perception of a griefer.
You disagree with the idea that people that you label griefers are allowed to rez objects.
You disagree with the fact that harvesting private data in a database without the consent of the people is unlawful.
You disagree with the idea that skills of mediating and listening to the other side would help to judge about human beings that are labelled griefers by another group of human beings.

That is “almost all” that I brought forward to you.
And as I predicted you do not think about that, but coming from your strong belief, you simply disagree.

GLE, you said: “I’ve been doing this for three and a half years now, and I can tell you that you will never see me sitting and laughing while a griefer does whatever he wants.”

I know you will not. It’s the cool and smart way and gets you nearer to the human being behind the ava.
You will not even try it, cause there is no glory deriving from such action.
The newbies simply have some fun, see the griefers disappear and nobody there to take the glory.

When you answer to Tux: “The only time I ever rez a shield is to impress someone.”
That makes sense. Your action impress the newbies. I question if they are effective against those griefers that really want the bad.

GLE, you said: “We once TPed into Sandbox Cordova during a big griefer attack.”
and a bit later: “… the griefer came back with an alt and complained to us …”

Was it a big attack or was it one griefer?
Your examples lack a bit of consistency. Might be typos, but I would trust more in your skills to judge and write quick and correct ARs, if I could see better fitting arguing here.

GLE, your story: “the griefer came back with an alt and complained to us that we wrote ten ARs on him in seventy seconds”

First: the griefer came back and tried to talk to you. And instead of communication you offered more ARs. There is always a human being behind the avatar, even if you call them griefer.

Second: there is a lack of consistency even in this part of your story. Where can he know from that there were 10 ARs in 70 seconds? LL doesn’t tell. To neither of the both sides. If he complained about 0.143 ARs per second, he can only got the information from you bragging about it.

Third: 10 ARs in 70 seconds for only one (1) griefer attack. What a waste of your time and adrenaline, and what a waste of the time of LL employees that we pay. If something like that happens in RL, the judge or investigator will always mistrust those complaints and investigate about a group harrassing one single person.

GLE you said: “I’m the one with a three and a half year old avatar, while he’s back in n00b clothing. Honestly, I can’t see how that could be enjoyable for him,…”

And while he perfectly knows you and your reactions, you only see the newbie outfit and might err, that it was the griefer from minutes ago, maybe it’s just another someone that makes fun of you. And if it was the same human being behind those 2 avas, yes, he got the fun he came for and on his seat he laughed about you, cause he does not think that much about his outfit and the name on top of the ava.
Maybe they sat together around a computer and made a bet: “Let us see, how much we can speed up GLE’s actions today.”

My suggestion would be: take some time to think about the perception of you on the other side. What is your old ava worth, what is it’s outfit worth, when they sit around their computer and have a laugh on it?

GLE, you said: “… and I believe that when he grows up, he will outgrow the griefing.”
Well, so you think your behaviour is mature, while griefers are the childish ones. That puts you so high above the others.
Sounds like a good argument, however, most people that claime to be the grown-ups among the kids do not see that from another perception it might just be the other way round.

GLE, when Tux asked you “Are you a judge”, you answered: “It makes perfect sense to me.” and talked a lot about volunteer work. But you did not answer if you have the skills to judge about other people (which would be the least skill you should have to get any extra power). So, the question was, if you have the skills of a judge and your answer was No.

GLE, you say: “But for now, it’s cat versus mouse, and the house rules favor the cat.”

I doubt that the smart employees at Linden Lab are enjoying being dumped with ARs that are quickly made and not really thought about.
Also, as I myself crashed sims 3 times when doing some little bugs in scripts. If you would have noticed that, you would have ARed me. However in one of the cases I talked to the sim owner and she was very interested in getting to know, how I did it and what she can do to get to know about such scripts. And then she asked me to script a host board for her and paid 40k Lindens for it.
So, maybe you feel to be the cat that plays with mice. It’s just your belief. I think that very often what you see as a mouse might be a lion.

Something to read for you, if you find time between a few dozen ARs:
http://clickjane.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/throw-stones/
D.F.

Mar 13th, 2010

Your three and a half years of experience in SL and with griefers has told you mass ARíng them is the best course of action against Griefers.

My five years of experience in SL and with griefers has told me, that giving them attention, ANY ATTENTION like getting AR’d only is what they’re after.

Give them NO attention and they will go away by themselves.

I have witnessed the birth of the group known as PN (R.I.P.) when they came by our sim to have some fun with the furries. And believe me, the reason they’ve been coming back was because we gave them reasons to by ARíng them and thus giving them attention.

Concider the possibility that getting AR’d is a sport: Go in, start shit, wait till you get AR’d and whomever lasts longest before LL disconnects them, wins a thousand internets.

All groups that make it their goal in SL to combat griefing in whatever way, are merely making the problem worse. For every account that gets AR’d, there will be three throwaway accounts waiting to continue what the first couldnt.

Getting AR’d is a confirmation that someone is paying attention to them: and that is exactly what they want, and what will make them come back.

A small example is Habbo Hotel and what happened there when the PN decided to raid there.

When the Habbo mods decided that the black person in suit with afro were a nuisance 9 out of 10 times, and started to ban anyone looking like a PN, the PN racted and started flooding in en masse: first it was to close the pools, but now it had become so much more fun: fighting against the racist habbo staff.

The more attention the griefers get, the more reasons they have to come back again and again. And an AR is nothing but a medal: proof that someone cared enough about their actions to waste a Linden’s time on them. Even more effective then telling them directly to their face that you’re bothered by their actions and what you think of them.

My advice, as a 5 year old oldbie who has been running a high profile furry club for years, DO NOTHING. They will eventually get bored and go away.

Seriously, three and a half years in SL, you’re still reacting to griefers like a noob. Despite suggestions from all directions, even from griefers themselves on how to better deal with griefers… you’d do better to listen to people, they might just be onto something, and not just dismiss them as if you’re the know all end all solution to the problems of SL. You’re hardly out of the proverbial diapers, you noob.

(Of course all above noob calling etc. in lighthearted jest)
(but I am serious in my suggestions)
Wayfinder

Mar 13th, 2010

@D.F.: (decided to reply to this one, cause you’re earnest and no troll. Your post warrants respect and response):

I appreciate that GLE has 3 years of experience. I appreciate that you have 5 years of experience. I have a little more. And I’ve spent that time running numerous sims, several SL businesses and two rather very large groups.

So when I say that I totally disagree with your summation, that I find that abuse reports DO work, please understand that I do have more than personal opinion on which to base that statement.

You state that abuse reporting is futile. I assure you it is not. My evidence: apparently you still suffer from griefers on a regular basis. I don’t. That’s not sheer luck.

That doesn’t mean we never, ever have griefers. But they are very rare. It doesn’t mean we won’t ever. It does mean that any griefer that comes to our land is going to get his butt kicked three ways to Sunday, because we have a policy of zero tolerance and enforce it consistently. Griefers don’t like to enter places with a competent trained police force. They prefer easy targets. They especially don’t like griefing areas when they know it will almost certainly result in them being banned from SL. (I don’t care if they come back as an ALT or not, we can ban them faster than they can create them. Total waste of their time.) In short: when a griefer hits us, we make sure he suffers more than we do.

That enforcement takes exactly the form that the Lanterns, in their equally-long experience to mine, employ in their anti-griefer tactics.

So with total respect to your opinion, here’s alternate thought for consideration:

Griefers are basically cowards who hide behind the anonymity of a keyboard. They go where there are easy marks. I have seen– repeatedly– griefers turn and run from a well-armed sim guard. They prey on the weak, the new, the inexperienced because for the most part– they’re gutless “tire slashers”. If they knew their real identity would be published, if they knew Linden Lab would send the police to their door for such tactics (Federal computer hate crimes– whole new legal environment), I’m pretty certain griefing would for the large part stop.

In short, if Linden Lab had zero tolerance for griefing, they’d have no more trouble than any company has with “hackers”. Griefers would know that every time they harassed someone they’d be putting their RL in danger. Few would be stupid enough, and none would have the courage to do so. That’s the core griefer mentality: these are useless, socially dysfunctional people who have nothing better to do with their lives than harass other people. They are psychologically imbalanced and poor excuses for a living human being. If they had any real skill, aptitude, or feeling of self worth, they would be doing better things with their time than attacking people on a silly virtual world.

As far as abuse reports being effective, I’ve found it to be very effective. Time and again I’ve had griefers BEG us to not abuse report them. One griefer actually apologized (sincerely) and swore to stop griefing just to avoid an abuse report (one gets to the point we can tell who is earnest and who is just playing us). One griefer, being confronted and the “law” laid down, realized there was something better to do with his life– and went on to be a prominent and productive SL member.

Our policy: when an intentional griefer hits, we abuse report the blazes out of him. We ask everyone who was standing there to please file a report against that person. We include chat and photos. Odd how we never see his face again… and months will go by without further problems.

So when you claim that abuse reports are useless and just egg griefers on, I respectfully point out years of experience proves that opinion to be without basis in fact. We have some of the most peaceful sims on the grid. We have ZERO tolerance for griefers and drama queens, and we will freeze, eject, ban, and MULTIPLE abuse report abusive persons every single time. When they come to our sim with attitude, we send them packing (quite often with tinies hitting them with toilet paper on the way out. LOL. How embarrassing).

Abuse reports DO work. Agreed, Linden Lab doesn’t always handle such reports perfectly (no one is perfect), and I am surely not impressed with their “criminals have right to privacy” policy (that’s just loony and presents no closure for the victims). I think when someone is banned.. be it 24 hours, 3 days, 2 weeks or permanently, it should be a matter of permanent public record, just like a REAL LIFE criminal record.

But despite its flaws, the Abuse Report system does work, griefers do not like to be abuse reported… and folks who refuse to abuse report them (for whatever reason) do nothing but encourage them in their course– because you let them get away with it, no consequences. It’s called enabling… and that, not abuse reporting, is the dead-end course that encourages additional griefing.
Wayfinder

Mar 13th, 2010

PS- At Danziel & DF (again with respect): you both referred to the concept of “the griefers themselves say”…

Do you honestly believe you can take anything that a griefer says seriously? They’re griefers guys. Like most criminal minds, they will say whatever pops into their minds at the moment– then prove their own words wrong with their very next action. You take them at their word– they’re going teach a lesson in gullibility. ; )
Senban Babii

Mar 13th, 2010

@Wayfinder

“If they had any real skill, aptitude, or feeling of self worth, they would be doing better things with their time than attacking people on a silly virtual world.”

I thought I should point something out here. You’re saying that griefers would find better things to do that attack people on a silly virtual world. But if the virtual world is silly then your argument says that everyone who uses it should find something better to do with their time. I don’t think that’s what you meant, maybe you could have worded that one better

It’s funny, but for the last few days, I’ve been hanging round the various sandboxes listed earlier by GLE. Just hanging round, watching. Because from what I hear, they’re infested with griefers.

I never saw a single one. I’m sure that the JLU will now claim that’s because they’ve cleaned up the town. But I think it’s more likely that they carry their drama around with them. All I saw were people hanging out, building, rezzing, playing in a sandbox environment. And remember, a sandbox isn’t just for building sandcastles, it’s for creative play. And that’s all I saw. I’m sure the JLU would have seen things differently and fired off abuse reports.

OMG HE REZZED A CUBE A SMALL CHILD COULD TRIP OVER IT I MUST FILE A REPORT AND SAVE THE DAY

OMG SHE REZZED A TREE A SMALL CAT COULD CLIMB IT AND GET STUCK I MUST FILE A REPORT AND SAVE THE POOR KITTEH
Tux Winkler

Mar 13th, 2010

OMG, Wayfinder, you generalisation of the term griefer is very broad.

Many people, myself included, have been branded a griefer. Many incorrectly. Of these people I fail to see the common behaviour you depict.

For example: I released a video on youtube of me deforming Teeple Linden in the no script no build hud of Help Island Public (using FlexLife viewer – now Luna Viewer). This was with his consent. Yet, as soon as I tp into Help Island now I get ‘oh the griefer is back – mute buttons on standby’. To my mind these people are the griefers. After all they are unjustly smearing another resident. In something they cannot even understand. And should I move into a build area, a few of the brave ‘anti-griefers’ will use their phenoms or mystitools to try to remove me for the protection of the sim.

I know many people branded griefers. And tbh I think it is often used as an excuse for ‘I have no idea how they do that – but I have to say I do’. Still this branding, although flawed, it is nothing as to your unbelievable psy. evaluation. Perhaps you should do a survey, to find out how many branded griefers slash tyres (be sure to include the JLU and their ilk).

However, I have to agree with you about the AR system, it does work. To well in fact. You see, LL is way to understaffed in RESI, and of the minimal staff there, many have their own agenda and are biased. Couple this with the fact few actually investigate anything, just drop the mighty ban hammer when they cannot stand any more AR’s coming in.

Something needs to be done for sure. But it should be official, not self appointed ‘it is my duty’ types. RL training is a must.
Danziel Lane

Mar 14th, 2010

@Wayfinder:
you said: “Do you honestly believe you can take anything that a griefer says seriously?”

WOW, what kind of mind can ask that question?
Do you only black and white?
Are people that you once labelled as griefer condemned for the rest of their lives?
Are they criminals?

To be honest: at the moment, just from syntax and semantics of what you and GLE write can much less be trusted than what Nebula writes. Why? Nebula writes logic conclusions and knows the order of cause and effect, while you and GLE write about belief, condemnation and in a Mr-Know-It-All style.

You say: “They’re griefers guys.”

No, they are human beings. They might have the idea to get fun of spoiling other’s fun, but that is the same like people that try to command and police others to have fun on using powers on others.
If you are a griefer or a police group member: you take fun and pride in deciding what others have to do.

You say: “Like most criminal minds, they will say whatever pops into their minds at the moment– then prove their own words wrong with their very next action.”

Same as we have seen here from GLE and you:
- giving “protips” to avas much older
- being asked about judging skills and talking about volunteering
- mixing up cause and effect and not even realize it, even when your head gets slammed into it

At the moment I see only generalisation and condemning from your side, and I will never trust guys that cannot show some logic of their thoughts .. other one than: it must be so, cause I want it.

You say: “You take them at their word– they’re going teach a lesson in gullibility. ; )”

As we saw in this thread, you guys will even AR them, when they come to talk. No judge in RL does that to the worst criminal. They always have the right to speak for their side.
You will not give this right, which is part of so many civilized constitutions, to someone you condemned as a griefer.

As I see it:

Those you label as griefers are great scripters and builders and pointed to a lot of bugs of SL, and so made it safer for us all.

You police groups do not think a minute about deescalation or mediation like modern, professional RL police does.

You still are in a world that I read about in comics at the age of 8-10, when I was a little boy. Then, at the age of 11, I realized the world is different and superman might have a colorful outfit, but is not really smart, but rather egocentric. That was long ago, when I put away those little kid stories with lots of pictures and went to read books.
Now, how old are you?

While civilized nations separate powers and do not let police be judges and not let judges make laws, you police groups claim to be the good ones, make the rules, do the police work (with no or little investigation) ,,, you want all the powers and now even started to ask LL for execution powers, the power of the a terminator.
I am really happy, that in RL the world you imagine will not become true.

I really can’t trust people that offer such a generalized and arrogant condemnation about other human beings that they even resist to talk to.
So, thank you very much that you gave me another great argument for the idea that police groups like you run them are evil.
Danziel Lane

Mar 14th, 2010

If you don’t know how to give reasons and prove for your opinion in a forum or blog:

1. Call those that actually give reasons and proofs trolls.
How can they do that? You have all the rights to voice your opinion and commenting that your opinion might be wrong or can be seen different from a different perceptions are criminals that oppose to your opinion. Calling them trolls gives you an advantage, many will follow your idea and not think about you have no proof at all.

OK, Wayfinder called me a troll. He might be totally right, cause I opposed to GLE and him and added different thoughs and ideas and proved them. Totally wrong in a blog.
So Wayfinder, do trolls tell their name in their posts? I did, maybe earning me some entries in several new databases of several police groups. However, you did not, you hide behind the Wayfinder nick. So, what does that say about trolling?

2. Argue with your experience.
If you don’t have the skills needed, just argue with the time of experience. Don’t worry, if you only have 3.5 years to offer and someone comes and got more years .. maybe 5. There will always appear a friend (like in the old days in the sandbox) and tell, they have even more. Or you can tell and add 3 years of something different. All know this game, we all played it before we were sent to school. And those that stopped learning then, will take your side, cause you started the game.

Well, does 3.5 years experience of fighting prove anything? It would, if different ways would have been tried and evaluated. But something like that did not happen. so 3.5 years prove nothing at all.
GLE, if the task is to get to the other side of the wall, you can run your head against it hoping that it will break. But walls are criminals, they will not break from your head, and you know very well talking to them is a waste of time. And if you return tomorrow, that wall is still there holding you back from the other side. You can do that 3.5 years and will have summed up a lot of headache/ARs, but no special useful knowledge about walls.
Other people use that little switch, they think! They think about other ways to go or use. They think about the use of a ladder or to turn right or left and look for the edge of the wall. Doing something the same way for 3.5 year and whining that the griefers … errm the wall still is there, is no real experience.

So we have 3.5 years, 5 year and Wayfinder with even more. The old game: who has the biggest shovel in the sandbox, later changed to who has the biggest … errmmm, ok. Don’t forget that this has all been started by Pix, whom none of us can win against. If someone is experienced in how things in the internet work … it’s Pix. And Pix thought it would be necessary to come up with the JLU story.

3. Stop talking to that guy.

Where are you gone, GLE?
Wyrdwolf Legion

Mar 16th, 2010

@ Wayfinder.

The only things you forgot to mention is that you have a Linden in your friends list, and that your Dad is bigger than anyone elses.

If you are going to make such claims, please have the dignity to use a valid name so we can verify your claims for ourselves.

Also, having the decency to use a valid name will enable us to all point and laugh at you in world for spouting such utter garbage.
We

Mar 16th, 2010

@Wayfinder

You haven’t proved that abuse reports are effective, but you have proved that you’ve never had to deal with a dedicated griefer before. “Begged not to be abuse reported”? That’s not a real griefer, that’s someone who normally behaves fine and decided to grief that one day, likely for some drama reasons without thinking of the consequences. A dedicated griefer doesn’t give a shit because the accounts are throw-away, threatening them with abuse reports just makes the whole thing extra amusing. An account being banned for a dedicated griefer is only a minor annoyance, for a dedicated SL player and patently non-griefer, it’s a big deal.

Dedicated Griefers don’t go after “weak” targets, they go after funny targets: Goreans, the JLU, furries, anyone who’s likely to throw a fuss and give a large amusing reaction. If you never give a reaction, they won’t bother with you because it won’t be amusing. That’s the biggest thing that confuses people I think, people see Griefers breaking the ToS and they decide that they’re criminals: work like criminals and think like criminals, and base all their ideas and judgements on griefers based on that. They’re not. Griefers are like anyone else in Second Life, they’re trying to have a good time, only their brand of “having a good time” is at the expense of others.

Abuse Reports may be able to get a griefer banned (though when and how varies greatly depending on which Linden you get and what time you file it), but that won’t stop a dedicated griefer, they take 10 seconds to make a new account and continue, what really stops griefers in their tracks is not throwing a shit fit over their griefing your sim. I can’t believe that’s so hard for some people to understand.

(And if you want to play the “I have more experience therefore I am correct” game, well I have more experience than you, as a resident of SL, store owner, and estate manager. Or you can just judge on the merits of the actual debate points themselves.)
Kiddoh

Mar 16th, 2010

“Do you honestly believe you can take anything that a griefer says seriously? They’re griefers guys. Like most criminal minds, they will say whatever pops into their minds at the moment– then prove their own words wrong with their very next action. You take them at their word– they’re going teach a lesson in gullibility. ; )”

Ou~ that has gotta be the weakest argument I’ve ever seen right next to Gen.

Once again proves that acting pretentious a good point does not make.
GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 16th, 2010

@ Danziel Lane

I’m starting to believe that either English is not your native language or you are intentionally twisting what I say to suit your own views, or both.

“And as I read, you insist, that it’s not a weapon, if you rez moving physical objects and push objects.”

It’s not a weapon because we don’t shoot at people with it. It’s a construction tool, or maybe a cleaning device. Just because something moves doesn’t make it a weapon.

“GLE, you said: ‘Although it seems like the sandboxes are always in turmoil, most of the time they are peaceful and fun places to be.’
I see it the opposite way: Although the (Linden) sandboxes are peaceful and fun places to be, sometimes there comes a griefer.”

That is exactly what I said, just restated backward.

“GLE, you said: ‘I do not believe that griefers survey the sandboxes looking for peacekeepers and move on if they don’t find any.’
Again belief.”

It’s a belief built on years of observation, a belief that you did not refute.

“GLE, you said: ‘They won’t get tired of it, believe me.’
I’ve seen it the other way. I watched and I’ve seen them getting tired of it and go. ARs are not the solution, as they come back with 2-3 alts tomorrow.”

They will come back tomorrow anyway, no matter what happens. If we follow your advice and sit down to laugh at them, they get to spend as much time in the sandbox as they want, watching people get knocked around by their replicating Goatse Man cubes. If we follow the peacekeeper way and write ARs, they only get to spend as much time as it takes for LL to arrive and ban them. We cut short their enjoyment by removing them from the grid. You allow them to hang around for as long as they want. The sandbox residents and I like my way better. The griefer likes your way better.

“GLE, you said: ‘The solution as I see it is to write the reports as soon as possible so LL can remove the problem and the griefer. That way, the residents get back to building without being interrupted by Goatse Man.’
Don’t you see that you contradict yourself? And that the AR system is no weapon against the griefers?”

There is no contradiction there, and ARs are very effective weapons against griefers.

“Is there no doubt at all that your 1000 ARs might have caused 2000-3000 new alts of griefers?”

That makes Second Life a target-rich environment.

“Is there no doubt that half of the ARs might have been unnecessary or a misunderstanding?”

Yes, I doubt that. I would say no more than 10-15 of my ARs have been in error. I don’t go in firing off ARs at anyone standing in the vicinity, and I don’t know anyone who does.

“Is there no doubt, that you ARed people that complained about being hit and pushed by your sim cleaning weapon/peacetool?”

I have never done this, and again, I don’t know anyone who does.

“1000 ARs do not prove to be good, but prove that you are not able to find smart and flexible solutions. 1000 ARs prove that you don’t have ideas of deescalating and mediation.”

What is your “smart and flexible solution” to a sandbox full of Goatse Man cubes? They will certainly not be affected by your idea of enforced hilarity, and it is not possible to mediate them out of existence either. One tactic I use all the time is to IM the owner prior to writing the AR. I say “Did you rez [objects] in [location] on purpose?” If they say no, then I don’t write and AR and I advise others not to either, until I can try to persuade the owner to come and fix the problem. If the owner responds with abuse or doesn’t respond at all, it’s AR time.

“GLE, you said: ‘We once TPed into Sandbox Cordova during a big griefer attack.’
and a bit later: ‘… the griefer came back with an alt and complained to us …’
Was it a big attack or was it one griefer?
Your examples lack a bit of consistency.”

As I recall, it was a sim full of replicating cubes that all had a single owner. Big attack, single griefer.

“GLE, your story: ‘the griefer came back with an alt and complained to us that we wrote ten ARs on him in seventy seconds’
First: the griefer came back and tried to talk to you. And instead of communication you offered more ARs.”

You made this up. It’s not what I said. He came back and complained, but I wrote no further ARs on him. In fact, this guy was so irritated at being banned that he wanted to tell me how I was a fascist and a Nazi and a police wannabee and all the cliches that people use. I think I talked to this guy for more than an hour. We drew a crowd, some peacekeepers, some supporters, maybe a couple of opponents (who didn’t hang around for long). I was calm and friendly, as usual, and he started out very angry but then cooled down. He IMed me after he flew away, something about how he couldn’t be seen being friendly with me but he understood why the ARs had to be written.

“Where can he know from that there were 10 ARs in 70 seconds? LL doesn’t tell. To neither of the both sides.”

I don’t know where the information came from either. Maybe he had a friend on the Linden GTeam.

“10 ARs in 70 seconds for only one (1) griefer attack. What a waste of your time and adrenaline, and what a waste of the time of LL employees that we pay.”

It wasn’t a waste of time at all. We used a proven Linden-endorsed method of getting the GTeam’s attention and flagging the attack as a major problem. One of the team members showed up right away and took care of it. We had peacekeepers from several different groups on hand, so we all stopped to chat for a while and compare notes.

“GLE you said: ‘I’m the one with a three and a half year old avatar, while he’s back in n00b clothing. Honestly, I can’t see how that could be enjoyable for him,…’
And while he perfectly knows you and your reactions, you only see the newbie outfit and might err, that it was the griefer from minutes ago, maybe it’s just another someone that makes fun of you.”

No, he admitted that he did it.

“GLE, when Tux asked you ‘Are you a judge’, you answered: ‘It makes perfect sense to me.’ and talked a lot about volunteer work. But you did not answer if you have the skills to judge about other people (which would be the least skill you should have to get any extra power). So, the question was, if you have the skills of a judge and your answer was No.”

The discussion here was about giving limited powers to peacekeepers. There’s no need to have “skills to judge about other people” for that. If someone is rezzing Goatse Man cubes in the sandbox, you eject him and you return all his objects, the same as you would do in your home parcel. I’m sure the LL RESI Team has guidelines for how they handle griefers and their objects. Those guidelines could be applied in a limited fashion to sandbox volunteers as well. We are still not talking about “judge and jury” powers here, just the ability to remove the person and his objects from the places he is affecting. It would always be up to LL to take any punitive measures, i.e., the judge’s actions.

“I doubt that the smart employees at Linden Lab are enjoying being dumped with ARs that are quickly made and not really thought about.”

I’m sure the RESI Team members don’t appreciate poorly-written ARs, but we don’t do poorly-written ARs. I have received personal thanks from a few of them after they came to fix a problem, so I know they support what we do. The LL Knowledge Base urges people to write multiple ARs if multiple residents are affected. That’s why we come in a group for major attacks.

“You police groups do not think a minute about deescalation or mediation like modern, professional RL police does.”

Obviously you haven’t been around peacekeepers very much if you believe something like that.

“Well, does 3.5 years experience of fighting prove anything? It would, if different ways would have been tried and evaluated. But something like that did not happen. so 3.5 years prove nothing at all.”

I’ve never seen an alternative to writing an AR that got the replicating cubes removed from the sim. Until that idea is presented and is seen to work, your speech about “trying different ways” is meaningless. Don’t hold back. Give us the benefit of your vast anti-griefer expertise so we know how to fix the problem without writing the AR. I would love to try something new and see if it works.

@ D.F.

“All groups that make it their goal in SL to combat griefing in whatever way, are merely making the problem worse. For every account that gets AR’d, there will be three throwaway accounts waiting to continue what the first couldnt.

Getting AR’d is a confirmation that someone is paying attention to them: and that is exactly what they want, and what will make them come back.”

You’re wrong about this. What keeps them coming back are the people who shout insults at them and run around trying to avoid being hit. These are called “lulzcows” in the griefer’s terminology. Peacekeepers generally don’t communicate with griefers at all, so the griefers get no lulz out of them or their ARs. I returned to a discussion board after being away for a while, and learned that one of my old friends there had been hardware banned from Second Life for griefing. When I said he was the last person I would have thought would become a griefer, he said “I couldn’t help it. The tears were so delicious.” The reason they keep coming back is to get those delicious lulzcow tears.

This is somewhat similar to the idea that fighting against terrorists just makes more terrorists, so we should stop fighting. Maybe if we ignore them, they will go away. The problem is that ignoring them only empowers them to go anywhere and do whatever they want, because they know there will be no opposition, and it’s the same with griefers. Appeasement never works.

@ Senban

“It’s funny, but for the last few days, I’ve been hanging round the various sandboxes listed earlier by GLE. Just hanging round, watching. Because from what I hear, they’re infested with griefers.

I never saw a single one. I’m sure that the JLU will now claim that’s because they’ve cleaned up the town.”

JLU can’t take credit for everything, but I know at least one case where we’re directly responsible for the cleanup. There’s a website that documents the downturn in griefing:

http://www.gridsurvey.com/incidentsummary.php

The PN is pretty much gone, Nebula Griefing is too, the Nicholas Mafia isn’t doing much, and about all that’s been happening recently is a few individual folks like the Nightmare Dench guys who rez the same stuff every time. I even saw a Mario Mosh Pit a few days ago, a real blast from the past. If you like, I’ll send you an IM next time there’s a decent-sized griefer attack so you can see one for yourself. Better be ready to show up right away, though, because griefer attacks never last for long in Peacekeeper Country.
Senban Babii

Mar 17th, 2010

@GLE

” If you like, I’ll send you an IM next time there’s a decent-sized griefer attack so you can see one for yourself.”

I appreciate the offer but in the spirit of impartiality, I prefer to turn up as and when i.e. at random times. That way I’m not being invited to witness a manufactured event (by either side).

“Better be ready to show up right away, though, because griefer attacks never last for long in Peacekeeper Country.”

Oh my god, did you just flex your bicep at me?
We

Mar 17th, 2010

@GreenLantern Excelsior
“We are still not talking about “judge and jury” powers here, just the ability to remove the person and his objects from the places he is affecting. It would always be up to LL to take any punitive measures, i.e., the judge’s actions.”

I think the part you’re missing here is the abuse of any power given. Kalel and the JLU have already massively abused DMCA and Abuse Reports, and that’s with the powers of any normal person. With more powers, I can only imagine the abuse of power that would come with the ability to delete prims.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s those who volunteer for positions of authority are the worst people for it. The JLU has already proven repeatedly that they’re less interested in stopping griefers, and more interested in attempting to gain power and attention for doing it. Using a group of “police” to handle griefing incidents is inefficient at stopping griefers, but efficient at gaining attention.

For someone who supports ARs so much, you’d think your focus would be less on “I’ll save you with my ARs!” and more “Oh you don’t know how to write an AR, here this is how you do it.”. But as has been mentioned repeatedly, if everyone could do what you do (and they can), then you don’t get any power or attention.
Wyrdwolf Legion

Mar 17th, 2010

@ GLE

“The PN is pretty much gone, Nebula Griefing is too, the Nicholas Mafia isn’t doing much, and about all that’s been happening recently is a few individual folks like the Nightmare Dench guys who rez the same stuff every time. I even saw a Mario Mosh Pit a few days ago, a real blast from the past.”

You are so very right (Don’t be surprised!)

Havok 4 killed off the “Hard Core” griefing. If there was ever a reason for JLU to exist, there is none at all now.
Well pointed out!
Senban Babii

Mar 17th, 2010

@GLE

“I even saw a Mario Mosh Pit a few days ago, a real blast from the past.””

I can actually appreciate the idea of this being a blast from the past. It was for a similar reason that I published my recent blog about Cosby Cubes (Jell-owned! Cubes) – maybe I should do one on the Mario Mosh Pit too 8D

http://whenitchanged.blogspot.com/2010/02/jell-owned-look-back-in-time-at-cosby.html

Such things are so rare these days compared to a couple of years back that many residents have never even heard of such things.

And I think you actually just made the point quite nicely, don’t you? Such things are now so rare that the continued existence of something like the JLU is called into question. Perhaps a couple of years ago I would have even said “well it’s handy that someone is around to help clean up” but that’s circa 2007. The biggest source of “grief” these days is untrained n00bs arriving on the grid with no idea of what they’re doing. Why don’t you do something that’s actually useful and address that issue instead of playing League of Amazing Superfriends?
GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 17th, 2010

@ We

“I think the part you’re missing here is the abuse of any power given. Kalel and the JLU have already massively abused DMCA and Abuse Reports, and that’s with the powers of any normal person.”

I can understand why people think the DMCA requests weren’t right, but what’s wrong with the Abuse Reports? Where is the “massive abuse” there?

“If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s those who volunteer for positions of authority are the worst people for it.”

In most cases I would agree with you. In this case I believe Linden Lab decided they wanted to see if they could get some volunteers trained to supplement the GTeam, and when they thought about who would be the best people to use in a pilot program, JLU was at the top of the list. So they talked to us about the idea, and we agreed that it was good.

“The JLU has already proven repeatedly that they’re less interested in stopping griefers, and more interested in attempting to gain power and attention for doing it.”

We’re still interested in stopping griefers. “Gaining power” was never one of our goals. I would call it more like gaining a couple of extra tools in the toolbox to help SL residents. As for gaining attention, we do tend to “blow our own horn” internally, but that’s mostly to build morale and team spirit. I doubt you will hear JLU members bragging in the sandbox about our accomplishments.

“For someone who supports ARs so much, you’d think your focus would be less on ‘I’ll save you with my ARs!’ and more ‘Oh you don’t know how to write an AR, here this is how you do it.’.”

I have walked people through the AR process before, and I’ve handed out my AR training notecard to whoever is interested. Usually the “sandbox rats” who are there all the time already know how to write ARs. The others are either newbies or one-time visitors, and in either case I probably won’t ever see them again. Maybe I should work out a better way of advertising AR training. Any suggestions?

@ Senban

“Oh my god, did you just flex your bicep at me?”

It wasn’t that. I just discovered a new motto. It’s like “You’ll be safe now, ma’am. You’re in…Peacekeeper Country.” Or maybe “Sleep well tonight. Your Peacekeepers are on the job.” In the background I’m hearing the theme song from “Walker, Texas Ranger.”

“And I think you actually just made the point quite nicely, don’t you? Such things are now so rare that the continued existence of something like the JLU is called into question. Perhaps a couple of years ago I would have even said “well it’s handy that someone is around to help clean up” but that’s circa 2007. The biggest source of “grief” these days is untrained n00bs arriving on the grid with no idea of what they’re doing. Why don’t you do something that’s actually useful and address that issue instead of playing League of Amazing Superfriends?”

If you look at the “Incident Reports by Month” chart on that link I posted, you can see that the numbers for January, 2010 are about the same as they were in June, 2007. What that says to me is that griefing is cyclic and we’re at a low ebb right now. I don’t believe the number will ever reach zero, and it may trend back up again, so it makes sense to maintain the training and the knowledge. In the meantime, when there are no griefer attacks happening, we could be doing other things.

I volunteered to hold a griefer seminar in the Magellan Kinvara sim on February 15. It was announced in a Caledon group notice, and along with about five Caledon residents, ten self-identified griefers showed up to ask questions about JLU. It could have been a bad experience, but in the end it was good. Several of them friended me, and they formed the “GreenLantern Excelsior fanclub” with the description something similar to “The kicken’est JLU man ever.” I took them on a griefer attack callout in Sandbox Island Extension and demonstrated IMing the owner of the objects (she came back and started deleting them). I think they left with a better insight about what we do and how we do it. I was invited back by the sim owner to give the seminar again “with a little more targeted audience.” I want to add some information about safety in Second Life, to include stalking and privacy and avoiding identity theft. I checked out the training classes offered in NCI, and it looks like they don’t have anything like that, so maybe there’s an opportunity for us there. And we are investigating the possibility of joining the Resident Help Network to provide education and assistance to new SL residents. Our big charity involvement every year is Relay for Life, and right now we’re heavily involved in getting started with that for 2010. We also provide security for some of the large events in Second Life. So you’re right – there are plenty of things to do beyond the anti-griefer mission.
Vince Braver

Mar 17th, 2010

GLC is such a cool guy. (sarcasm)
Tux Winkler

Mar 17th, 2010

@GLE (whom after our recent discussions in the sandbox has gain me respect to a degree)

“I can understand why people think the DMCA requests weren’t right, but what’s wrong with the Abuse Reports? Where is the “massive abuse” there? ”
A quick look in the wiki can see many AR’s was faulty. This coupled with the mass AR parties which amount to nothing more than stalking/bullying.

“In most cases I would agree with you. In this case I believe Linden Lab decided they wanted to see if they could get some volunteers trained to supplement the GTeam, and when they thought about who would be the best people to use in a pilot program, JLU was at the top of the list. So they talked to us about the idea, and we agreed that it was good.”
This is what sets me off – XD. Voluteers trained? Did they train the JLU? As a suppliment to GTeam? That makes is sound like approval which they certainly do not (except for maybe a few rogue ones like Plexus). And just a FYI other groups was spoke to about antigriefing.

“I doubt you will hear JLU members bragging in the sandbox about our accomplishments.”
I agree, I have never heard you brag (but I have others).

“Maybe I should work out a better way of advertising AR training. Any suggestions?”
As you well know advertising is not allowed – XD – but how about this. Instead of modifying weapon scripts to make antigriefer ‘tools’ why not have your scripters make a system to detect griefing and issue advice accordingly.

“Sleep well tonight. Your Peacekeepers are on the job.”
After spiking your drink with Rohypnol?
(sorry couldn’t resist – XD)

“I volunteered to hold a griefer seminar in the Magellan Kinvara sim on February 15. It was announced in a Caledon group notice, and along with about five Caledon residents, ten self-identified griefers showed up to ask questions about JLU. It could have been a bad experience, but in the end it was good.”
I suggested this – once you rise above the banter, you will see those people are often branded griefers for having a sense of humour.
In fact I am branded a griefer because I look better in blue lycra than Kalel.

“I took them on a griefer attack callout in Sandbox Island Extension and demonstrated IMing the owner of the objects (she came back and started deleting them).”
Sorry GLE, but I wouldn’t have called this person a griefer. A true griefer would have come back and played with you for a while. And all the other JLU that turned up.

“And we are investigating the possibility of joining the Resident Help Network to provide education and assistance to new SL residents.”
Superheros in an education role works. Drop the holier than thou BS and teach people. (I mean the JLU generally). And drop the wiki, then it cannot be released into PD.

“We also provide security for some of the large events in Second Life.”
Oh please let us know, I would love to see you guys tested.
Tuomy Boa

Mar 17th, 2010

@GLE

You seem like the “Voice of reason” within the JLU so I direct this to you. I’m quite confused over the whole wiki scandal. Kalel and JLU has defended their “Data harvesting habits” by the fact that all personal information in JLU wiki is common knoweledge and easily accessible by all who can use internet and by so doesnt invade anyones privacy.

Then, if 99% of JLU wiki is based on common knoweledge, why is Kalel going through all that trouble to get the copies of the wiki shut down?
We

Mar 17th, 2010

@GreenLantern Excelsior
“I can understand why people think the DMCA requests weren’t right, but what’s wrong with the Abuse Reports? Where is the “massive abuse” there?”

Because the point of an Abuse Report is for someone who is being abused to report the abuser. What the JLU does is, one person sees abuse, writes an abuse report, then calls in others to come write abuse reports too. The others have not seen or been a part of the abuse, and thus have no idea what happened and have to get all their information from the first JLU member.

The problem there is, if the abuse report is faulty, then you have a faulty abuse report repeated a dozen times over, or if the abuse report is invalid, you have an invalid abuse report looking valid. The RESI Team will see a large chunk of abuse reports about an issue and not look too deeply into it. The ability to abuse this system was proven when the JLU AR partied my sign in the Sandbox, which had nothing breaking about the ToS about it. One of the signs even just linked to a herald article with no links to a wiki or names, and I got suspended for “Disclosure”. I disputed it with LL, and apparently they realized they were tricked by the JLU, as the dispute ticket after a few days of “In progress” was closed with no e-mail notification, with no way for me to re-open it and with no comment from a Linden staff, none of which is normal.

“In most cases I would agree with you. In this case I believe Linden Lab decided they wanted to see if they could get some volunteers trained to supplement the GTeam, and when they thought about who would be the best people to use in a pilot program, JLU was at the top of the list. So they talked to us about the idea, and we agreed that it was good.”

And I’m thankful they apparently changed their minds, in fact from the looks of things on your wiki, it seems like the idea never got past Plexus. I’m betting he thought it up, went ahead and rashly told you guys about it, then when he brought the idea to his superiors, they laughed him out of the office. Kalel has proven he’s willing to break the law to suppress information, (and willing to break and bend the ToS to get that information in the first place) I don’t think that’s the kind of person we need with any kind of power at all.

“We’re still interested in stopping griefers. “Gaining power” was never one of our goals. I would call it more like gaining a couple of extra tools in the toolbox to help SL residents. As for gaining attention, we do tend to “blow our own horn” internally, but that’s mostly to build morale and team spirit. I doubt you will hear JLU members bragging in the sandbox about our accomplishments.”

Gaining power is never an officially stated goal, but that is the unofficial goal of all self-appointed police groups: for one to gain authority over another that was not given. The JLU can say that’s not their stated goal all they want, their actions continually say it is. When I had my signs up in the sandbox, two JLU members attempted to command me to remove it, if they were dealing with a newbie who didn’t know how things worked in Second Life, it’s likely the newbie might believe they are actually appointed to positions of power.

“I have walked people through the AR process before, and I’ve handed out my AR training notecard to whoever is interested. Usually the “sandbox rats” who are there all the time already know how to write ARs. The others are either newbies or one-time visitors, and in either case I probably won’t ever see them again. Maybe I should work out a better way of advertising AR training. Any suggestions?”

I’ve already given the suggestion a few times: take down the private wiki full of disclosing information obtained without people’s knowledge, consent, or the right to do so. And replace it with a public wiki that has tips, tools of the trade, and maybe a LITTLE information about known griefing groups (not people, it’s pointless to mark out people anyways as the avatars change so much). Then change the focus of the group from dressing up in super hero outfits and running in to “save the day”, and getting people to figure out their own Abuse Reporting.

This public wiki would
a.) Be more efficient at teaching newbies how to file abuse reports.
b.) Still keep the JLU as an anti-griefer organization, just a more efficient educational one instead of an active superhero Roleplay thing
c.) Stop the threat of wiki leaks, and make it so the content of the wiki is monitored by third parties

Means of distribution would be members handing them out, leaving objects that give out full perm notecards in the sandbox, educational events, and simple word of mouth. JLU activities would go from activity searching for violations to report, and instead trying to get people to report their own abuse (which is the original intent and purpose of the abuse report to begin with).
Senban Babii

Mar 17th, 2010

@GLE

“We’re still interested in stopping griefers. “Gaining power” was never one of our goals.”

Look, I’m a self-confessed Star Wars fan. I embrace my sickness as a blessing.

But what you just said reminded me of Chancellor Palpatine when he grudgingly said “Oh give me this power if you must, although it’s something I really didn’t look for or ask for but I’m willing to take it on to help protect my people and of course I will lay down my burden when asked”.

And look how that turned out! O.O

In all seriousness GLE, let’s have a chat. Out of all the superheroes, you are the only one who comes across as sensible and who genuinely is trying to come up with working solutions to help people. And I’m not saying this to drive some kind of wedge between you and the rest of them I promise. But this is what you need to do to be taken seriously.

Ditch the wiki. And ditch it publicly. And I don’t mean pretend to and then keep it running sneakily in the background because you will get caught out, it’s inevitable. Ditch it, leave it in the past and move on.

Distance yourself from Kalel Venkman and Maverick Grunfeld. Kalel is unstable and untrustworthy, he has proven this multiple times now. Maverick has shown that he can’t be act objectively and can be easily led by his temper and arrogance. Some people might suggest adding Kara Timtam to this list but in all honesty I can’t because I’ve got no evidence one way or another and so have to give her the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.

Remind any and all members that they are subject to the exact same rules as anyone else. I’ve got chatlogs proving that JLU members use griefer weapons to attack people. And those didn’t come from members of the Wrong Hands or Woodbury or any such people. They came straight from the horse’s mouth and into my ears. I’ve alluded to this in the past but I’ve chosen not to publish these. In part this is down to not wanting to attract the next DMCA takedown and AR party from the JLU but it’s also because I’m giving you a chance to fix it yourselves because despite what you may all think, I’m not anti-superhero. But you do need to clean up your own backyard with some heavy duty actions before you dare to go out on the grid and tell other people that you’re the good guys because some of you really are not. You need to not just remind your own people that they’re subject to the exact same laws as everyone else, you need to come down hard and PUBLICLY on any of your members who don’t abide by those rules.

Other than that, abandon all this “going out on patrol” business. By all means keep the superhero costumes, it adds an element of fun if handled correctly. But remake the purpose and methodology to be one of education and not vigilante AR parties. You really need to publicly abandon your previous methodologies if you people are ever going to be accepted and….and this is important….trusted.

From your recent posts you’re honestly coming across as trying hard and you are genuinely the only person I’m continually hearing good things about. Use this opportunity to create something worthwhile. Use your good ideas that you’re talking about. Listen to the good ideas being put forward by people like We and Tux Winkler.

But first, clean up your own backyard. Publicly, firmly and decisively. And that includes that damned wiki. And the DMCA/AR parties.
We

Mar 18th, 2010

Interestingly enough, I just noticed that the JLU wiki records an incident where two members of Blue Lantern Corps were suspended for a day for abusing the Abuse Report system. They were AR Partying a person, and the Lindens caught it, suspended them, and told them to stop abusing the system. Two lindens confirmed that “AR Parties” are not okay. Apparently instead of stopping AR Parties, they just worked to make them harder to detect, spreading out the repeat ARs and doing them across multiple accounts to try to make them not look like spam, but valid reports. I’ve seen AR Parties in action against myself, and I noted how they spread out the time between reports and how different people across 3 or 4 Lantern/JLU organizations were popping in to AR me. Only 3 members even bothered to talk to me, GLE and I had a long chat, whereas two others simply attempted to command me to remove it.
GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 18th, 2010

@ Tux Winkler

“A quick look in the wiki can see many AR’s was faulty.”

You’re looking at Articles, basically personal Post-It notes that are nothing more than personal opinions. ARs are different.

“This coupled with the mass AR parties which amount to nothing more than stalking/bullying.”

Mass AR parties are what Linden Lab asks for in their Knowledge Base article about how to write an Abuse Report. It’s that statement about “if twenty people are affected, we should see twenty reports” etc.

“This is what sets me off – XD. Voluteers trained? Did they train the JLU? As a suppliment to GTeam?”

The “GTeam Mentors” idea was just in the preliminary talking stages when we heard about it. I suspect that when it was presented to LL management, they shut down the idea.

“Instead of modifying weapon scripts to make antigriefer ‘tools’ why not have your scripters make a system to detect griefing and issue advice accordingly.”

I don’t know how that would look or how easily it could be defeated or fooled. The only way I know to detect griefing is to view it personally and evaluate it against what we know of the CS and ToS.

“Sorry GLE, but I wouldn’t have called this person a griefer.”

She wasn’t a griefer. She was a newbie who took something she was given and rezzed it in the sandbox. That’s why I always try to IM an object owner before writing an AR.

@ Tuomy Boa

“Then, if 99% of JLU wiki is based on common knoweledge, why is Kalel going through all that trouble to get the copies of the wiki shut down?”

The majority of the wiki consists of articles and information authored by JLU members (The Fray, meeting logs, etc.). The percentage of personal information in there is small.

@ We

“What the JLU does is, one person sees abuse, writes an abuse report, then calls in others to come write abuse reports too. The others have not seen or been a part of the abuse, and thus have no idea what happened and have to get all their information from the first JLU member.”

This is absolutely not how it works. When I do a callout on the JLU group channel, I will say something like “Replicating cubes, owner Nosepicker Voom, location http://slurl.whatever_etc“. A person who is responding will click on the SLURL and TP in beside me. They wait for everything to rez and then locate the offending object and write the AR. I have never heard of any JLU member writing an AR without actually seeing the griefing in person. I know I certainly don’t do that. If LL gets 5 JLU ARs on something, they can be sure that 5 JLU members came to the area and laid eyes on it. I don’t know anything about your sandbox sign, although I could find out if you would give me names and dates and a location.

“Kalel has proven he’s willing to break the law to suppress information…”

You are welcome to your opinion but you don’t get to make up your own facts.

“Gaining power is never an officially stated goal, but that is the unofficial goal of all self-appointed police groups: for one to gain authority over another that was not given. The JLU can say that’s not their stated goal all they want, their actions continually say it is.”

Again, you’re trying to make up facts but you’re not too successful at it. JLU is a Neighborhood Watch in Second Life, with no more power over anyone than any other resident.

“When I had my signs up in the sandbox, two JLU members attempted to command me to remove it, if they were dealing with a newbie who didn’t know how things worked in Second Life, it’s likely the newbie might believe they are actually appointed to positions of power.”

Date, location, and names, or it didn’t happen. I suspect that either you were approached by residents who weren’t JLU members. There are several different “counterfeit” JLU groups, and anyone can have a “Justice League” title over his head. If anyone besides a Linden tries to give you commands in Second Life, just tell them to go away.

@ Senban

Kalel isn’t really masquerading as Darth Venkman.

“Out of all the superheroes, you are the only one who comes across as sensible and who genuinely is trying to come up with working solutions to help people.”

It’s very kind of you to say so.

“Ditch the wiki. And ditch it publicly.”

That’s not going to happen. The Brainiac wiki is a big part of JLU. It contains too much valuable information to just throw it all away. However, the Herald has had an effect with all these articles about JLU. We’ve been talking about whether to move the personal information to another location, and we’ve discussed creating more and different griefer categories to make sure a litterbug and a sim crasher aren’t both classified as the same type of violator. The Herald readers planted those seeds. Now let’s see what grows.

“Distance yourself from Kalel Venkman and Maverick Grunfeld. Kalel is unstable and untrustworthy, he has proven this multiple times now. Maverick has shown that he can’t be act objectively and can be easily led by his temper and arrogance.”

Kalel and Maverick and Kara are my friends, part of my family. I believe your evaluation of them is inaccurate. I wish you could get to know them in person, rather than relying on accusations and rumors generated by their detractors.

“Remind any and all members that they are subject to the exact same rules as anyone else. I’ve got chatlogs proving that JLU members use griefer weapons to attack people. And those didn’t come from members of the Wrong Hands or Woodbury or any such people.”

The use of such weapons is prohibited in the JLU bylaws, so this is a serious charge. I will offer to give you my email address so you can forward those logs without worrying about Disclosure.

“Other than that, abandon all this “going out on patrol” business. By all means keep the superhero costumes, it adds an element of fun if handled correctly. But remake the purpose and methodology to be one of education and not vigilante AR parties.”

We already do education and other public service, so that will continue. Patrols and Abuse Reports will continue too, even though some people would like to see those come to an end. Writing ARs is not vigilantism, since we don’t take any enforcement action against the perpetrators. We just report the problem and then stand back and wait for LL to take action. This is what residents would do if they were all well trained in AR writing. Since we can’t train everyone and we can’t assume that those we train will respond to every attack, we rely on the people we know to submit ARs. Finally, there’s nothing wrong with an AR party. If the event affects multiple residents, LL wants multiple reports, so that’s what we give them.

“You really need to publicly abandon your previous methodologies if you people are ever going to be accepted and….and this is important….trusted.”

JLU is highly trusted by those we serve. I’m trying to win the trust of everyone else by dispelling rumors and addressing misconceptions wherever they pop up. I hope I’m making a difference.

@ We

“Interestingly enough, I just noticed that the JLU wiki records an incident where two members of Blue Lantern Corps were suspended for a day for abusing the Abuse Report system.”

Back when the Lindens held GTeam Office Hours in the Kremer sim, one of them stated that we should AR every violation we saw, even on a single object. You could have a spinning cube knocking people around (assault), screaming out a few bars from “Chocolate Rain” (repetitive spam), and having a “Yiff in hell furfags” texture on it (intolerance) all at the same time. That would be three ARs on the same object, which made sense at the time, because you would be telling LL that the object violated the Community Standards in several ways. The incident is documented in the JLU Wiki on the page “The Fray, 2009″ at item #33, “Lindens Suspend Accounts For Multiple Abuse Reports.” There was some confusion about what actually happened, but the end result of a ticket I filed was this response:

“Response to ticket #4051-5965286
Hi there,
Sending multiple abuse reports for the same resident and same incident is not helpful.
In future please advise residents that a single detailed abuse report for each new incident will be perfectly acceptable.
Best regards,
Harry Linden”

Basically one Linden made an informal verbal policy that was later contradicted by another Linden. It has happened before. One Linden told us that intolerance applied only to real life groups, not furries or Goreans or Klingons, and the very next week two different Lindens told us that intolerance applies to SL groups too. Anyway, the end result was that all the peacekeepers notified all their members to file only one AR per person per event per sim. This has no effect on AR parties where five different people each file an AR on the same event.
Tux Winkler

Mar 18th, 2010

@GLE

“Mass AR parties are what Linden Lab asks for in their Knowledge Base article about how to write an Abuse Report. It’s that statement about “if twenty people are affected, we should see twenty reports” etc.”
No, I think the interpretation the JLU has is flawed. As I understand it anyone present at the time of grief should report. But not call in all group members to report what happened when they didn’t see it.

“The “GTeam Mentors” idea was just in the preliminary talking stages when we heard about it. I suspect that when it was presented to LL management, they shut down the idea.”
Yes, I know of the discussions and am glad of the outcome. =)

“I don’t know how that would look or how easily it could be defeated or fooled. The only way I know to detect griefing is to view it personally and evaluate it against what we know of the CS and ToS.”
Maybe if the JLU hadn’t screwed Fred so bad he could help you. Luna viewer is equipped with an accurate detection system in the form of automute. It cannot be fooled.
Would Fred help Kalel? I would like to think so – that would be a worthy Herald story – XD

“Date, location, and names, or it didn’t happen.”
I hate to say it, but I had a couple try to order me to remove objects too. I figured English wasn’t their first language.

“abusing the Abuse Report system”
I was banned for this for three days – by Harry too – XD

Lindens never sing from the same hymn sheet. Just look at Plexus!
We

Mar 19th, 2010

@GreenLantern Excelsior

” I have never heard of any JLU member writing an AR without actually seeing the griefing in person. I know I certainly don’t do that. If LL gets 5 JLU ARs on something, they can be sure that 5 JLU members came to the area and laid eyes on it.”

Maybe you don’t do it, but you have proven to be an exception for the JLU. Considering you’ve said before that you’ve never seen or heard of SL Mentors abusing their status, I think your eye for corruption in your own groups is somewhat poor. If Kalel tells a new recruit, “I saw this, file an AR” would the recruit say “No, sorry I won’t do it until I see it”? Highly doubtful, they would file an AR without ever seeing it or being effected by it.

“It’s that statement about “if twenty people are affected, we should see twenty reports” etc.”

That’s the thing, 20 people aren’t effected. Additionally can you really call it being “abused” if your group willingly seeks out abuse?

“You are welcome to your opinion but you don’t get to make up your own facts.”

Well the fact is that Kalel filed DMCAs on a number of sites to supress information, none of the DMCAs were valid, as they were fair use for journalism, and Kalel couldn’t prove ownership on almost all of it.

But as I posted in another comment, here’s Kalel stating explicitly that he was considering filing frivilous lawsuits in order to gain information on griefers that he was not privy too, even admitting that he knows it’s an abuse of the system.

“Whether the suit has merit or not is probably irrelevant to whether information can be requested, but one should be prepared to go to trial with a suit like this. The legal system is not kind to people who use the system in unintended ways.” — Kalel

“Again, you’re trying to make up facts but you’re not too successful at it. JLU is a Neighborhood Watch in Second Life, with no more power over anyone than any other resident.”

Griefers have no more power over any other resident either. The difference between any other resident and your group and griefers; is that you’re both willing to break the rules, bend morality, and do anything else you need to to meet your goals.

“Date, location, and names, or it didn’t happen. I suspect that either you were approached by residents who weren’t JLU members. There are several different “counterfeit” JLU groups, and anyone can have a “Justice League” title over his head. If anyone besides a Linden tries to give you commands in Second Life, just tell them to go away.”

Please stop assuming I don’t know what I’m doing. I know Justice League members, and I know how to recognize groups.

One of them was WriterofPoetry Oceanlane (Before you say it, no I did not confuse him for WriterofProse), who is not very eloquent at all ironically enough. On February 9th 4:37 SLT, he kept commanding “remove the prim” And I did tell him more or less to go away, because I knew he had no right to command me to do anything (A newbie might not). The other one’s name I don’t remember, something japanese sounding and had a furry AV with golden armor. Ookami maybe?

“Back when the Lindens held GTeam Office Hours in the Kremer sim, one of them stated that we should AR every violation we saw, even on a single object.”

That’s pretty ridiculous outright. Why send in 3 different reports on one object, the point of Abuse Reports is to notify the Lindens of when you’re being abused. If you want to point out multiple things you say “This object is here and it’s abusing me because of a.) b.) and c.)”. Filing 3 different abuse reports for each one is just spam, and anyone with a modicum of common sense would have figured that out.

But then, you also seem to think that anything making fun of furries is “Intolerance” which is equally ridiculous. As much as furries want to be, they are not a race of people, they are a fandom. You cannot be “intolerant” of a person’s hobbies.

Considering you know that the Lindens contradict each other constantly, you’d think that your own common sense would be applied when they say something silly like “Intolerance applies to furries and goreans”. If that were the case, then JLU would be a hate-group of intolerance for the proud race of internet griefers.
Senban Babii

Mar 19th, 2010

@GLE

“You’re looking at Articles, basically personal Post-It notes that are nothing more than personal opinions. ARs are different.”

A fair point. However those “Post-It Notes” are on file. Someone comes along, say a new recruit and reads those and builds up an incorrect picture of certain people based on what has been written and that’s where it goes wrong. I already showed in a previous article how Batcakes wrote a series of “Post-It Notes” on the so-called Woodbury Raid On Ahern that were blatantly false. And someone else has noted that they were banned after that event. You can say those “Post-It Notes” are harmless all you want but they are building up a false picture of people and events and that false picture will influence future decisions inappropriately. If I hadn’t exposed the truth of the “Woodbury Raid”, those notes would have gone unchallenged.

“Kalel and Maverick and Kara are my friends, part of my family. I believe your evaluation of them is inaccurate. I wish you could get to know them in person, rather than relying on accusations and rumors generated by their detractors.”

Just a reminder, although I mentioned Kalolcakes and Batcakes, I specifically said that while some people might add Kara Timtam to that list, I could not because I had no evidence one way or another to make such a judgement and I stand by that position. And I’d be happy nay ecstatic to do an exclusive interview with Kalolcakes to give him a chance to speak publicly about recent issues. It would be fair and impartial and he’d have a chance to let people see his side of the arguments. If he doesn’t want to tell his side of the story, he has to realise that other people will then step up to fill those shoes. Tell him to give me an IM. I’ll separate personal opinion from interviewing someone objectively and I’ll do my best to give him a fair platform to express his opinions and explanations. The ball’s in your court Kalel, why not take the opportunity? Think of it as Superman giving Lois Lane an exclusive interview. Didn’t that happen in one of the films? I forget now but you get the idea.

“I will offer to give you my email address so you can forward those logs without worrying about Disclosure.”

An apparently fair offer, only I don’t fancy having my IP address harvested and put into your wiki. I’m sure you’ll argue that you’re trustworthy but frankly, the JLU and its associates have proven more than willing to harvest such data and I’m not going to feed it to you willingly. I hope you don’t take personal offence at that. And consider this. I’ve emailed various members of the groups you consider bad people. I trust them more than I trust the superheroes. What does that say about the JLU and its methods and its levels of public trust?
Wyrdwolf Legion

Mar 19th, 2010

@ GLE

“Date, location, and names, or it didn’t happen”

“I have never heard of any JLU member writing an AR without actually seeing the griefing in person.”

“I don’t know anything about your sandbox sign, although I could find out if you would give me names and dates and a location.”

Are you Arsene Wenger in disguise?

Also:-

“JLU is highly trusted by those we serve”

This is obviously untrue,…
Unless the JLU is self serving?
Just read through the comments on the connected stories here. It seems very apparent that the residents of Secondlife dont trust you at all.
Where is your mandate?
Senban Babii

Mar 19th, 2010

I should add something to my last post.

“If I hadn’t exposed the truth of the “Woodbury Raid”, those notes would have gone unchallenged.”

I should change this because it makes it sound like I’m taking credit when I’m not. I simply stood on the shoulders of others who had collected the information and passed it to me. All credit to the Wrong Hands
Tux Winkler

Mar 19th, 2010

Senban: Tell him to give me an IM. I’ll separate personal opinion from interviewing someone objectively and I’ll do my best to give him a fair platform to express his opinions and explanations.

Or hide away and plot your revenge on the whole of the world – muahhhahahaha!

Oh, thats supervillians not heroes right? I fail to see a difference atm.

Still we have seen on other forums what happens when Kalel speaks out (JCB returns). But here I do not think he will, because he cannot get the comments removed. AR parties will not work here. Despite it potentially being the most popular article of all time!

(Senban – always happy to share – XD)
GreenLantern Excelsior

Mar 19th, 2010

@ Tux Winkler

“No, I think the interpretation the JLU has is flawed. As I understand it anyone present at the time of grief should report. But not call in all group members to report what happened when they didn’t see it.”

From the Linden Lab Knowledge Base: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Guide_to_Filing_an_Abuse_Report

“When should you file an abuse report?

Whenever you see one of these rules being broken and you believe it to be intentional or malicious, everyone present at the scene should file an abuse report. The abuse-reporting system exists to make your Second Life more pleasant and satisfying. If there are multiple incidents, file multiple reports.

We encourage you to file reports on abuse you see happening anywhere in addition to abuse that targets you personally. Not every Resident is aware of the abuse reporting mechanisms, or remembers to use them in times of trouble, so help out your fellow Residents! Reports from multiple people show the RESI (Resident Experience Support Inworld) Team that an incident affected more people than a single report would. If twenty Residents are affected, we should receive at least twenty abuse reports from twenty different Residents, which can corroborate evidence.”

This is easy to understand, so no interpretation is necessary. Nothing in the Knowledge Base article restricts the reports to only those who were present when the griefing started. If I arrive at the scene of a griefer attack, I’m affected as well. The peacekeeper groups help out their fellow Residents by writing multiple ARs when multiple Residents are affected.

“I hate to say it, but I had a couple try to order me to remove objects too. I figured English wasn’t their first language.”

There is no one in JLU who communicates in broken English. If it was a couple, male and female partners, it could have been WriterOfPoetry Oceanlane and Sairi Matova. They are both articulate, and I can’t imagine them ordering anyone around.

@ We

“If Kalel tells a new recruit, “I saw this, file an AR” would the recruit say “No, sorry I won’t do it until I see it”? Highly doubtful, they would file an AR without ever seeing it or being effected by it.”

Kalel wouldn’t ask anyone to do that, and any recruit who tried it would get an immediate education about why it’s a bad idea.

“Well the fact is that Kalel filed DMCAs on a number of sites to supress information, none of the DMCAs were valid, as they were fair use for journalism, and Kalel couldn’t prove ownership on almost all of it.”

That’s your personal interpretation. What’s illegal about any of that?

“But as I posted in another comment, here’s Kalel stating explicitly that he was considering filing frivilous lawsuits in order to gain information on griefers that he was not privy too, even admitting that he knows it’s an abuse of the system.”

You should read that Ars Technica article and then reread the entire “Unmasking Anonymous Trolls” message thread again and try to understand what’s going on. Kalel didn’t say he was personally planning to take any action. He said you could file a lawsuit to get someone’s information. He said that maybe the lawsuit wouldn’t need to be valid, but you’d better make sure it was so you didn’t get into trouble. In other words, you wouldn’t want to make up a false complaint, because if it ever went to court, you might be the one who ends up behind bars.

“Griefers have no more power over any other resident either. The difference between any other resident and your group and griefers; is that you’re both willing to break the rules, bend morality, and do anything else you need to to meet your goals.”

It appears that you are trying to divert attention away from your original assertion that JLU is attempting to “gain power” in SL.

“The other one’s name I don’t remember, something japanese sounding and had a furry AV with golden armor. Ookami maybe?”

That would be Ookamisuke Babenco. I can’t imagine Writer ordering anyone to do anything like that, but I’ll take your word for it. He and Sairi have since resigned from JLU.

“That’s pretty ridiculous outright. Why send in 3 different reports on one object, the point of Abuse Reports is to notify the Lindens of when you’re being abused. If you want to point out multiple things you say “This object is here and it’s abusing me because of a.) b.) and c.)”. Filing 3 different abuse reports for each one is just spam, and anyone with a modicum of common sense would have figured that out.”

Supposedly the reason given at the time was that LL didn’t want to see multiple issues on one AR. Maybe they were trying to develop statistics on how much intolerance was reported, so if they got a report with intolerance, repetitive spam, and assault, all on the same object, it would be harder to classify.

“But then, you also seem to think that anything making fun of furries is “Intolerance” which is equally ridiculous. As much as furries want to be, they are not a race of people, they are a fandom. You cannot be “intolerant” of a person’s hobbies.”

I think it was Michael Linden who said the same thing that you just said, and he was contradicted the following week by a pair of Lindens (Socrates and Zara, as I recall) with the opposite opinion. The introduction to the Community Standards says that the goal is to “refrain from any hate activity which slurs a real-world individual or real-world community.” The actual Intolerance standard says, in part “Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole.” The first statement would seem to say that you can write whatever you want about a SL avatar as long as you don’t defame its real life owner. The second statement doesn’t limit the actions to real life. In the end, we usually believe the most recent advice we’ve received from Linden Lab, and that most recent advice is that defamation applies to every person and every group in Second Life and real life.

@ Senban

“Batcakes wrote a series of “Post-It Notes” on the so-called Woodbury Raid On Ahern that were blatantly false.”

Haruhi wrote one also, number 4364, with the same text as Maverick’s. What’s up with that?

“Just a reminder, although I mentioned Kalolcakes and Batcakes, I specifically said that while some people might add Kara Timtam to that list, I could not because I had no evidence one way or another to make such a judgement and I stand by that position.”

Since you’ve never met Kalel or Maverick, what “evidence” do you have to pass judgment on them other than allegations from questionable sources?

“And I’d be happy nay ecstatic to do an exclusive interview with Kalolcakes to give him a chance to speak publicly about recent issues. It would be fair and impartial and he’d have a chance to let people see his side of the arguments.”

You’ve already said “Kalel is unstable and untrustworthy, he has proven this multiple times now.” If this is your stated opinion of him, how much incentive does that give him to talk to you? He might be willing to talk to someone who’s not already hostile toward him, but since your fairness and impartiality does not bear close scrutiny, I doubt you will be getting that interview any time soon.

“An apparently fair offer, only I don’t fancy having my IP address harvested and put into your wiki. I’m sure you’ll argue that you’re trustworthy but frankly, the JLU and its associates have proven more than willing to harvest such data and I’m not going to feed it to you willingly. I hope you don’t take personal offence at that. And consider this. I’ve emailed various members of the groups you consider bad people. I trust them more than I trust the superheroes. What does that say about the JLU and its methods and its levels of public trust?”

It says nothing about JLU. It tells me that you’re more than a little confused about who to trust. I wanted to investigate the allegation, but if I can’t get any further information about it, it will have to be placed in the “rumor” category for now. And I don’t take personal offense at it. I just shrug my shoulders and go on to the next thing.

@ Wyrdwolf Legion

“Just read through the comments on the connected stories here. It seems very apparent that the residents of Secondlife dont trust you at all.”

The only thing that’s apparent to me is that the folks who usually post anti-JLU messages here are still here and still posting. These posters are not a representative sample of the residents of Second Life, though. They’re responding to the recent “all JLU, all the time” Herald coverage.

“Where is your mandate?”

Our mandate comes from Linden Lab: “We encourage you to file reports on abuse you see happening anywhere in addition to abuse that targets you personally.”
Wyrdwolf Legion

Mar 19th, 2010

@ GLE

“The only thing that’s apparent to me is that the folks who usually post anti-JLU messages here are still here and still posting. These posters are not a representative sample of the residents of Second Life, though. They’re responding to the recent “all JLU, all the time” Herald coverage”

I dont believe you will find any post by me prior to the wikki being released, regarding the JLU. Nor from others, such as Tux Winkler.
I dont trust the JLU and its fairly obvious that niether does Tux. Being second life residents, we are the people you claim to serve and we are less than happy with the service.

“Our mandate comes from Linden Lab “We encourage you to file reports on abuse you see happening anywhere in addition to abuse that targets you personally.””

Now you are being delusional.
This isn’t aimed specifically at you.
It also doesnt say to teleport in unaffected residents to send extra reports in. That only distorts the true picture of how many residents are affected.
This is no mandate at all. you’ll have to try harder.
Senban Babii

Mar 19th, 2010

@GLE

“Haruhi wrote one also, number 4364, with the same text as Maverick’s. What’s up with that?”

Haruhi at the time was I believe undercover in the JLU. She therefore had to write an article for the wiki to avoid suspicion. That’s pretty obvious really. Are you suggesting that Maverick is also an undercover agent? Wow, that would be some story!

“Since you’ve never met Kalel or Maverick, what “evidence” do you have to pass judgment on them other than allegations from questionable sources?”

I go on the evidence I see before me. Kalolcakes filed false DMCAs in an attempt to cover his own backside when his wiki was revealed publicly. Batcakes wrote false reports for said wiki. In the case of Kara Timtam I honestly have no evidence before me and therefore I give her the benefit of the doubt, refraining from tarring her with the same brush. Does the JLU do the same or does it say “guilty by association”?

“You’ve already said “Kalel is unstable and untrustworthy, he has proven this multiple times now.” If this is your stated opinion of him, how much incentive does that give him to talk to you? He might be willing to talk to someone who’s not already hostile toward him, but since your fairness and impartiality does not bear close scrutiny, I doubt you will be getting that interview any time soon.”

I’ve already said that I’m perfectly capable of separating personal opinion (such as might appear in a comment such as this one) and being objective (such as investigating an article). And believe me, the people who bring me stories, even friends, will testify that the second they do so, they get every little detail checked and their own motives are investigated. This has upset some of them. And while that’s unfortunate, when I write an article, investigate a story or conduct an interview, my name is on the byline and that means doing it right or not doing it at all.

Of course, it’s possible that Kalolcakes just doesn’t have the wit and presence to handle a simple interview and that’s why he gets others to talk for him. Charismatic leader FAIL, yes? If Kalel agrees to an interview, it will be unbiased and an opportunity to answer his critics about recent events. It would be a chance for the JLU to convince the avatar in the street that maybe they aren’t the bad guys after all. But if Kalolcakes doesn’t feel he would make a good spokesman or that he wouldn’t handle the interview well, then it’s fine.

Consider this. I’ve said the interview will be unbiased, impartial and fair. I’ve said that publicly, right? If the interview went ahead and got published, the whole world would see whether it was as I said it would be. If my name as a reporter means anything, then I have no choice but to conduct a fair, unbiased and impartial interview. I wouldn’t have final editorial control over the published content but that’s quite right and proper and I trust Pix to do a good job because she’s always done so to date. And I wouldn’t have control over any discussion in the comments section following any published article naturally.

But if Kalolcakes can’t handle a simple interview, then what hope has he got to be taken seriously? Superman gave interviews, right?

“It says nothing about JLU. It tells me that you’re more than a little confused about who to trust. I wanted to investigate the allegation, but if I can’t get any further information about it, it will have to be placed in the “rumor” category for now. And I don’t take personal offense at it. I just shrug my shoulders and go on to the next thing.”

Then we’re at an impasse on that issue. All I will say is that the person who spoke about caging and orbitting griefers and revenge attacks and so forth is listed as a member of the JLU in your own wiki. But that’s okay, we’ll put it in the rumour pile and move on.

” They’re responding to the recent “all JLU, all the time” Herald coverage.”

Haha, this is priceless. I’m sure that when corrupt organisations and governments are getting exposed in the media, they too wish the media would talk about something else for a while. The articles keep getting published because there are articles to be published. But I’m sure that you’d love it if we stopped publishing them so that you could slink back into the background, lick your wounds and wait for the furore to die down. If only there wasn’t so much material still waiting to be published…….

Of course, if you want some +positive+ publicity, get Kalolcakes to give us an exclusive interview as discussed. And if he’s not prepared to sit down for a chat with me, then there are plenty of other reporters on the staff.

“Our mandate comes from Linden Lab: “We encourage you to file reports on abuse you see happening anywhere in addition to abuse that targets you personally.””

That’s arguable perhaps. What about a mandate for a secret wiki full of false information and private data gathered without people’s knowledge? Where’s your mandate for that?

By the way, GLE, your posts are becoming increasingly hostile in tone. Calm and measured old fruit, calm and measured
Tux Winkler

Mar 19th, 2010

First off, I would like to ask the Herald to give GLE a weekly spot (GLE’s comedy corner).

“Whenever you see one of these rules being broken and you believe it to be intentional or malicious, EVERYONE PRESENT at the scene should file an abuse report. The abuse-reporting system exists to make your Second Life more pleasant and satisfying. If there are multiple incidents, file multiple reports.”
- My point stands. The JLU who recieve the group notification ‘OMG Marios in Sandbox Goguen by Jo Avatar’, and fly in and report Jo Avatar on the say so of the original caller, should step back. They wasn’t there they didn’t see it and do not know the scenario. Who is to say the person reporting to the group does not have an issue with the suggested spammer?
- Just like when I told Kalel to stop shooting me and mysteriously 4-5 other superheroes turned up and was obviously ARing me for daring to speak to the leader (yes I watch your cam positions).
- There is something in the CS which explains mass TPing into a sim is seen as a form of griefing (I cannot look it up from my phone). But this is it I have seen at times 20 JLU hitting a sim (HIP) and causing terrible lag because someone set off some particles.

“There is no one in JLU who communicates in broken English. If it was a couple, male and female partners, it could have been WriterOfPoetry Oceanlane and Sairi Matova. They are both articulate, and I can’t imagine them ordering anyone around.”
- IDK, I didn’t give them the chance. I have this ability to ignore morons.

“It appears that you are trying to divert attention away from your original assertion that JLU is attempting to “gain power” in SL.”
- You did say you thought you had proven yourself worthy of a little more (eject, return).

“The actual Intolerance standard says, in part “Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole.” ”
- In fact the defamation rules was altered subtly to include SL groups, because of the likes of the furries who was being targeted. And yes, as I recall Socrates played a part.
- Personally I have no issues with any SL group aside from child AV’s and the creators thereof, which just freak me out. I am sure some people get massive enjoyment, sitting there for hours creating a realistic child AV, just stay away from me (OMG Tux dislikes a group)!

“It says nothing about JLU. It tells me that you’re more than a little confused about who to trust. I wanted to investigate the allegation, but if I can’t get any further information about it, it will have to be placed in the “rumor” category for now. And I don’t take personal offense at it. I just shrug my shoulders and go on to the next thing.”
- Again, Kalel said somewhere (the link eludes me atm) that he was contacting peoples ISP’s who was clicking the links in the wiki. Which is why my uploader fixed everything, no jumping back the JLU HQ.

“You’ve already said “Kalel is unstable and untrustworthy, he has proven this multiple times now.” If this is your stated opinion of him, how much incentive does that give him to talk to you?”
- As the leader of the JLU you would have thought he would love the chance to correct anything he feels is incorrect about him or the group. Esp as he wants LL to grant ‘speshul powas’.
- Of course he was born with a foot sized mouth and has been (I assume) told not to speak publically by the rest of the JLU.

“It says nothing about JLU. It tells me that you’re more than a little confused about who to trust. I wanted to investigate the allegation, but if I can’t get any further information about it, it will have to be placed in the “rumor” category for now.”
- At least those you deem untrustworthy lay it out for all to see – XD

“The only thing that’s apparent to me is that the folks who usually post anti-JLU messages here are still here and still posting.”
- There is no smoke without fire my friend!

” These posters are not a representative sample of the residents of Second Life, though.”
- A little demeaning don’t you think? I see people from all aspects of SL here. Or does the league believe us one big group intent on hunting them? I think you know better!

“Our mandate comes from Linden Lab: “We encourage you to file reports on abuse you see happening anywhere in addition to abuse that targets you personally.””
- But the JLU modifies this to read: “We encourage you to file reports on abuse you see happening anywhere, even if you need to seek it out or trigger it by your presence, in addition to abuse that targets you personally.”

Seriously GLE, I do think you could run a better ship, which may even gain some respect from groups which give you none atm. I understand you was offered help once, perhaps you should seek it out. I believe it would help Kalel immensely to see someone do a proper job with the JLU. And it would give him some time to work through any issues he may be suffering from atm.
Selkit Diller

Mar 19th, 2010

Here’s my two cents, as the chairman of the FurNation staff; Corsi, absolutely, owns the northern sandboxes and the mall sim in FurNation; Corsi sets policy, I go about how to enforce it. However, it needs to be said quite simply that it was also my choice to set up a specific message at our telehubs stating that GLC *AND* JLU are unwelcome tagged, unwelcome active (And that JLU themselves, not necessarily GLC) will be banned on sight regardless.

Why?

Since 2006, I have had half a dozen run-ins with GLC/JLU, only one of which was even remotely pleasant (And I later learned it was illicitly logged and submitted to Brainiac):

In 2006, Kalel Venkman himself actually caged me in Goguen sandbox for my early attempts to test a physics-cleaner, in my own misguided belief that the sandboxes actually can be kept “clean”. Not ‘chastised’, ‘caged’ along with two other individuals, one ‘Wonder woman’ impersonator and a Batman.

In 2007, I had a chat with Samantha Lowell, back when FurNation still made the mistake of using the JLU’s pet Banlink system. This chat, despite being a fairly casual chat I had with someone I presumed was a representative of Proactive Security, NOT JLU, ended up in Brainiac, and it is now visible under the 2007 Fray section of the JLU wiki, blatantly named.

Throughout 2007, we had issue after issue with Banlink itself, particularly with Kalel and JLU member’s misuse of Banlink; After multiple false positive bans from Kalel himself, we ceased trusting Kalel’s bans, then eventually ceased the use of Banlink entirely when it was proven only about 20% of the bans carried over were legitimate by our own standards. To our observation, JLU had been using Banlink as a punishment tool against anyone and everyone perceived as persona non grata.

Post 2007, we ceased using Banlink and began to take on a no police policy; At the time, we had several issues with SLPD back when its members still decided to actively fire on visitors perceived in violation of their rules. In one such incident, JLU *and* the Lanterns got involved, and no less than three superheroes showed up to “take care of” an incident in which one estate manager was already involved in placing a warning which, had JLU not jammed their nose in, would have stuck at just a warning, and not a double ban just to keep the peace when the party looked like it would get larger. Guess JLU hates people horning in on their territory.

We’ve had minor incidents since, and in 2009, after installing telehubs in the sandboxes which regretfully now have to hit visitors with the sandbox rules every single time they visit (And an IM stating them in pointform), I finally had it and declared all “Police” and SL vigilantes unwelcome. We have a dedicated EM staff, we do NOT want JLU or any other spandex fetishists ‘help’, and the excuse, in contradiction to GreenLantern Excelsior’s insistence that they do not involve themselves in private estates, is that they show up when asked to, by a resident.

No, just no. We have clearly posted boards stating the sandbox EMship, who someone can turn to for legitimate help, not an AR party that just eggs on the sixteen year old PN copycat, and we are not interested in spandex fetishists running wild in the sandbox, especially not with your Gestapo-like behavior, intrusiveness, and the fact that at one point in time (With screenshots to confirm it!) I discovered that JLU actually keeps an online status monitor of several FurNation sims running!

Get out and stay out, “heroes”. You are welcome only out of uniform, out of tags, and as any other resident. JLU are unwelcome, period. I’ve already instructed my staff that you are to be regarded as any other vigilante; A nuisance without any means to do anything save throw fuel on a minor, smoldering issue.
Gaara Sandalwood

Mar 19th, 2010

“You are welcome to your opinion but you don’t get to make up your own facts.”

“Well the fact is that Kalel filed DMCAs on a number of sites to supress information, none of the DMCAs were valid, as they were fair use for journalism, and Kalel couldn’t prove ownership on almost all of it.”

False DMCA takedowns are illegal. This has been covered TOO MUCH here. I am truly sorry it doesn’t work the way you want it to but that’s how it is.

“If anyone besides a Linden tries to give you commands in Second Life, just tell them to go away.”

This unfortunately does not work on JLU and they will remain and tell griefers that they never look into information about to leave sims they have no real control over.