Staff Killer Plague Decimates Linden Lab Governance Team
by Pixeleen Mistral on 27/05/10 at 11:55 am
What is behind the sudden disappearance of former Linden governance team staff members? Colton Linden and Plexus Linden are no longer found in the Second Life search people tab, and a reliable source informed the Herald that Teagan Linden will succumb to the staff killer plague within 2 weeks now that she has given her notice to the Lab.
The departure of Teagan will mark the removal of half the former governance team – a group charged with swinging the ban hammer to keep unruly residents in line. Downsizing the G-team may be a cost saving measure brought on by sagging interest in Second Life – we note that the median player concurrency levels continue to swoon despite the Lab’s new Second Life viewer software — but it is also possible the staff plague is simply a case of office politics taken to its logical conclusion. Linden Lab is well known for factional infighting within the game god ranks.
the Justice League loses a true friend
The passing of Plexus and Teagan Linden are likely to be mourned by the Kalel Venkman and the Justice League Unlimited – a group of vigilantes known for filing frivolous DMCA takedown notices, gang abuse reports, and courting game god favors. Plexus in particular appears to have been a reliable ally for the spandex clad vigilante group. The Herald previously reported JLU claims that Plexus leaked player identity information to the Justice League and his on-going encouragement of what seems to be trademark infringement. Sadly, the death of Plexus makes it unlikely that Herald requests for an interview to verify the JLU claims will be answered.
Jeska reincarnated
In what may be related news, community manager Jeska Linden also perished, but was then miraculously reincarnated under her real life name and now plays Second Life as Jeska Dzwigalski.
Speculation that the slow progress on organizing the Second Life Community Convention for this summer is related to the departure of the community manager is likely to follow. While some will hail the continuing removal of staff from Philip Linden’s reign as proof that M Linden is fixing Second Life, the ongoing loss Linden Lab’s corpoate memory dos not bode well for improving player relations with the Lab.
What can be done? Now that Jeska is out of action, the most logical choice to help bring the community together at the SLCC this year may be none other than noted community organizer Prokofy Neva. Seriously.
jake
May 29th, 2010
“After all, wasn’t it Phillip Linden who said – “I’m not building a game. I’m building a new country”?
That was a nice idea…but then capitalists, hackers, and vigilantes made it unworkable, and these are the very ones that are complaining the most now.
Wouldn’t it be nice if you could admit that it was your own bad behavior that made these changes necessary?
Nice but not gonna happen… go ahead..continue bitching about LL, and continue to ignore the fact that SL turning into just another corporate game is, or perhaps going belly up for a large part, a result of your own actions.
Tux
May 30th, 2010
Aww, buh bye G Team.
You was given your rope and you tied your own fucking nooses!
Now odds on Plexibab coming back as a member of the JLU and joining the faggots in their mass AR parties, because some one says shit on open mike. Mwuahhhahahah!
Miss J
May 30th, 2010
G-Team are corrupted employees of Linden Labs. Good Riddance
jake
May 30th, 2010
lol point made.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
@Jake
“That was a nice idea…but then capitalists, hackers, and vigilantes made it unworkable, and these are the very ones that are complaining the most now.”
This I agree with, especially the capitalists part. Both in-world and out-world, the real thing that is bringing down SL is greed. Greed for money in large part but the real killer is greed for control over the experiences of others i.e. social power.
Wouldn’t it be nice if you could admit that it was your own bad behavior that made these changes necessary?”
My bad behavior? I’m assuming you’re talking generally rather than specifically to me? The worst I’ve ever done personally is a Mario Moshpit as a brief demonstration for someone who’d never seen one.
“Nice but not gonna happen… go ahead..continue bitching about LL, and continue to ignore the fact that SL turning into just another corporate game is, or perhaps going belly up for a large part, a result of your own actions.”
My actions or are you talking generally rather than specifically? LL is turning SL into a corporate game purely and simply because they look around at the success of MMORPGs like Facebook and are attempting to switch sports, to play a different game rather than the one they started playing. They are simply attempting to turn SL into a 3D Facebook, creating a portal to the social web in the hope they can capture some of the market and use it to boost their business. That’s why they are pushing this sick idea of having avatars that directly reflect the meatpeople. This is often being indirectly done through sockpuppets like Hamlet Linden (let’s be honest, he still is one) in his blog, quietly pushing the agenda like all these recent example.
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/05/ferocia-fackler.html
Also @Darien Caldwell
You say SL is not a country. However that was part of the original intention as clearly stated by Phillip Linden and how it was sold to the residents (note “residents” not “communication service users”, a term embedded in the SL culture). Perhaps what it could now be described as is a failed state? I’m no geopoliticist though so that might not be the best description. Just a passing though though?
alkaseltzer ravengas
May 30th, 2010
So… there is some truth to this nasty rumour that Prokofy Neva is going to be made a Linden and preside over the SLCC this year??
Seriously? No way… I dont believe it… pictures or it didn’t happen…
jake
May 30th, 2010
@Senban
Yes, I am speaking in generalities about the tone of comments in this blog as I don’t know who you are or what you have said. My point is, is that SL started from a place of high (naive) ideals where it was to be a ‘country’ where people could do whatever they want, create whatever they want. So what happened? capitalist greed, hacking, metagaming nonesense from the hands of a few that made SL untenable as an actual business (let alone an experiment in nation building) and forced it to change. So, i just find it fascinating to read all the complaints about the ‘failed dream’ and how ‘incompetent’ LL is, without a shred of self -reflection.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
@Jake
Thanks for clarifying and yes, I completely agree with what you just wrote. LL are to blame for many things but ultimately, the residents pissed in the sandbox they gave us and are just as much to blame for many of SL’s woes.
Wayfinder
May 30th, 2010
@jake: “So, i just find it fascinating to read all the complaints about the ‘failed dream’ and how ‘incompetent’ LL is, without a shred of self -reflection.”
Why do you believe there is no self-reflection? You have to agree that’s a fairly subjective opinion without any real foundation in fact. I have to wonder why it is that people continually swallow and even duplicate Linden Lab’s old propaganda trick of pointing the finger of blame at the customers instead of putting it where it rightly belongs: on the company in charge. Show me and others here Jake how it is we can impose or even influence a decision on Linden Lab. I’ve tried to influence that company for over 5 years with very little success.
I’m a professional corporate consultant. No amount of common sense, logic, suggestion, feedback, begging, pleading or cursing seems to have had any effect on the direction that company moved. So what kind of “self reflection” do you believe should be implemented, and how is it that you believe any kind of activity on the part of customers (other than leaving the board en masse) is going to affect Linden Lab decision making or policy in any manner?
The complaints about the “failed dream” come from Linden Lab selling out to corporate investors (such as Ebay) and putting profit first, ahead of both customer interest and welfare. They had stated their dream. They abandoned that dream. Customers didn’t. We’re still waiting. Since Linden Lab has failed to accomplish that “dream”… many of us are starting to move elsewhere– to boards where the dream is being fulfilled. I’d say that’s a pretty good example of self-inspection– and putting our money where our mouth is– where the dream is best served.
As far as incompetence, professionally speaking Linden Lab is one of the shoddiest performance companies I have come across. They can’t even get simple CHAT to work. They have had a critical show-stopper level texture bug unfixed for YEARS (showstopper being defined as causing people to leave the board in frustration and disgust… which happens daily). They can’t deliver a simple flipping GROUP NOTICE to all members of the group (how hard is that, seriously? Drop the notice to a list of names. Duh). Not only do they fail to fix bugs, but they regular “break” their system, bringing additional bugs to the board– and failing to fix those as well.
That’s what we mean by “incompetence”– the inability to perform the basic programming requirements of their business. I suppose that is the fault of the customer too?
@Senban: “LL are to blame for many things but ultimately, the residents pissed in the sandbox they gave us and are just as much to blame for many of SL’s woes.”
Would you be more specific? I mean, I’ve been on SL for about 5 1/2 years, and I can’t think of any specific examples of the statement you’re making here. Griefers? Hackers? Seriously… EVERY company has to deal with those. But frankly, it seems Linden Lab has more of their fair share. That usually happens when a company royally ticks off a large number of people. So who else besides the obvious are “pissing in the sandbox”?
Honestly guys, this “blame the customers” attitude is old, trite, fueled by the Linden Lab propaganda machine– and is just plain gullible. Sinban, you have it very wrong. “LL are to blame for many things but ultimately…” … ultimately… Linden Lab is in charge, and they’re the ones who answer for the general environment as a whole.
If Second Life is messed up, if there are problems, if it’s not working, if it’s a hive of greed and capitalism… it’s not the customers who made it that way. Linden Lab made the rules and set up the society. The buck stops there.
jake
May 30th, 2010
@Wayfinder
thank you for your thoughtful comments.
“If Second Life is messed up, if there are problems, if it’s not working, if it’s a hive of greed and capitalism… it’s not the customers who made it that way. Linden Lab made the rules and set up the society. The buck stops there.”
Surely they were catastrophically naive and idealistic when they set up their rules. They allowed people to do what they want, own what they made, even have the code to their viewers. Then what happened?
So by ‘self reflection’ I mean, maybe, for example, someone should think, ‘gee, i copybotted this item that someone else makes big money from using free code that LL gave me, so maybe it isn’t a big surprise that LL is changing the game to ‘liscence’ rather then ‘own’ since they are getting sued by the person I stole from.” Or, how about, “gee, I had the opportunity to build a fantasy world, but I chose instead to become a realestate baron and drive up the price fake real estate in the hope that such a pyramid scheme would continue to feed me real money at the expense of other players so maybe i shouldn’t be surprised when LL changes the game to make it more of a ‘game’ that people pay to play rather then own” or, how about, ‘gee, I spent actually energy and motivation to hack and game this relatively open system and annoy other residents, so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that they are at least trying to change the game to prevent that.”
that kind of self reflection.
Your analysis of LL as a company could well be true. However, what I have found is that by playing the game to build stuff, play, and interact with a few people, I have not encountered the depth of incompetence you describe…if I did, i surely wouldn’t play. Perhaps i am not as emotionally and fiscally invested in it as other people.
Persephone Bolero
May 30th, 2010
@Senban Your continued comparison of SL to a country is just ridiculous. You CHOOSE to use Second Life. Your association with Linden Labs is100 percent voluntary. How can your personal choice be compared to a government that rules over you and FORCES you to pay for that service whether you’re happy with it or not?
Most people are BORN into the countries that rule over them. There isn’t any choice about it. And migrating to another country is difficult, complicated, expensive, and for most people, impossible. So the country you live in is rarely a personal choice for the vast majority of people.
Therefore your comparison is just silly, and Phillip’s claim to want to create a country was just him and his usual idealistic bravado. You stay in SL because they do it better than anyone else. But your it is your choice, and you’re solely responsible for that choice.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
@Persephone
“Phillip’s claim to want to create a country was just him and his usual idealistic bravado.”
Nothing wrong with a little idealism
And as Wayfinder posted just above…
“They had stated their dream. They abandoned that dream. Customers didn’t. We’re still waiting.”
SL was sold to us as one thing and we’re still waiting for it.
@Wayfinder
I actually agree with many of your points, we’re not that far apart in many ways and I think a lot of the differences are simply down to the words we choose.
I guess I’m referring to groups that have attempted to take the game outside of the boundaries, groups that have attempted to gain overt or covert control over the experiences of others.
The problem is that LL did indeed create a country. Unfortunately they created an anarchic state which is tumbling towards a failed state. Now they’re trying to deny it was a country at all, retconning it into a “new communication media blah blah vomit”. You’re absolutely right that LL is ultimately at fault for blindly creating an anarchic state but the blame also has to be directed at residents who let greed and lust for power and control get the better of them. All LL did was create a world where there were no checks and balances to prevent those people.
Persephone Bolero
May 30th, 2010
@Senban SL was sold to you and you keep buying. Obviously, you’re not that unhappy with the service. Wait for your country all you want. Fact is, it’s not. It’s a company. And if you keep buying their service, they really have no reason to change anything they do.
I’m quite happy with most of what Linden Labs does and you whiners are irrelevant to the rest of us.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
Yes I know, I’m such a whiner. Whine whine whiney whine.
You know who else was a whiner?
…..
No, I can’t steal his lines 8P
To the person I’m reading this with in-world. Doesn’t this just validate what we’ve just been discussing? Ook ook, yelp! O.O
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
Incidentally, if SL isn’t a country, why are Linden Lab selling land in it and encouraging people to own homes?
Doesn’t sound like a “new communication media” to me Persephone.
Go to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200 8P
Tux
May 30th, 2010
@ Perspiration
“I’m quite happy with most of what Linden Labs does and you whiners are irrelevant to the rest of us.”
You do realise that your own whining is playing a major part of this thread? And if everyone here is sooo irrelevant then why are you chewing the corner of your keyboard waiting for a response?
I guess you happiness does not occupy so much of your time, eh?
Persephone Bolero
May 30th, 2010
@ Senban “Incidentally, if SL isn’t a country, why are Linden Lab selling land in it and encouraging people to own homes?”
You know what else? The land is surrounded by water. That’s JUST LIKE A COUNTRY!!!
It’s not like a country because you voluntarily come and go. Linden Labs has no way to force you to pay for its services. That’s the difference. So, if you use SL, you do so entirely voluntarily. You make a choice. Why are you holding Linden Labs responsible for your personal choices? That’s the question you can’t seem to answer.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
Do I get extra points for getting Perspiration to type in caps at me?
Kiddoh
May 30th, 2010
Yes, you do. Words words words words.
Persephone Bolero
May 30th, 2010
@Senban And you still didn’t answer the question.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
Then I shall answer the question if it will stop you gnawing your keyboard and give you some inner peace although perhaps that will only happen when you realise that others may have opinions contrary to your own that are perfectly valid from their perspective. Ranting and shouting to demand people agree with your perspective is sort of sad.
The simple answer is that I personally don’t hold LL responsible for my personal choices. I do think they are responsible for creating an anarchic state that became largely uncontrollable and that this led to SL failing to fulfill its original goals.
The problem now is that LL are unable to work out what exactly it is they have. They are attempting to turn SL into a sort of 3D Facebook to switch from their original market to an indirectly related one because they think it’s the way forward. But the problem is that one, the older residents didn’t come to this new land for that purpose and two, LL is still advertising SL in terms of a new country where you can raise 2.3 children and a dog. They actually don’t know how to proceed or in which direction to proceed and so they’re sort of treading water.
But to return to your demanding question, I don’t personally hold LL responsible for my personal choices and decisions. I do hold them generically responsible for the fact that they designed a country but had no idea what they were actually doing and now have no idea how to handle their inheritance.
You may now return to poking yourself in the eye with a spork to increase your rages in time for your next post where I hope to see at least a 100% increase in caps usage and hopefully a decreasing amount of time between ranty posts.
Ook ook yelp!
Persephone Bolero
May 30th, 2010
@Senban “LL is still advertising SL in terms of a new country where you can raise 2.3 children and a dog.”
McDonald’s claims that if you bring your family to their restaurant, all your conflicts will melt away, and your children will be loving with bright smiles. In reality, the whole family just gets fat.
Most of us just don’t eat there. Problem solved. You keep going back and buying crappy food and complaining that no matter how many Big Macs you pay for, your family isn’t any happier like you see in all those commercials. Maybe you should try a little critical thinking. I know it works for me.
I’m sorry you’re so susceptible to the exaggerated claims of advertising that you just can’t seem to make different choices, even when you’re completely dissatisfied with what you’re paying for. But hell, if you’re going to be this easy to exploit, can you really blame anyone for doing so?
Tux
May 30th, 2010
And if everyone here is sooo irrelevant then why are you chewing the corner of your keyboard waiting for a response?
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
Hehe you’re cute 8D
Resorting to personal attacks and everything. I must have really got under your skin. I never intended to but you really do seem to have got a tantrum on the go there.
/me throws a few hundred RindenDorras onto the table
Put that towards a new keyboard, that one’s started to look a bit too gnawed to use
Ook ook yelp! XD
Persephone Bolero
May 30th, 2010
@Senban Hehe…I win.
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
/me pats you on the head soothingly
Of course you did sweetums. Did the nasty Senban give you a booboo? There there, you showed her, you sent the nasty pixie to hide her shoes. Does oo want a hot milk and cookies?
Ook ook yelp! O.O
Senban Babii
May 30th, 2010
btw you can only “win” if there is a contest of opposing wills or ideologies. As I wasn’t in any such contest with you, you clearly showed that your only way of thinking is to dominate a discussion with no room for the opinions of others.
Good luck with that *_*
*gnaw gnaw*
Tux
May 30th, 2010
Did I miss a competition? or a war? What did you win? A statuette of the linden state building?
BTW just a random question, I don’t suppose you have one of those flexi rubbery keyboards?
XD
Wayfinder
May 31st, 2010
@Jake: “So by ’self reflection’ I mean, maybe, for example, someone should think, ‘gee, i copybotted this item that someone else makes big money from using free code that LL gave me, so maybe it isn’t a big surprise that LL is changing the game to ‘liscence’ rather then ‘own’ since they are getting sued by the person I stole from.””
Ahhh… I better understand now. Thanks for detailing that. Yes, I would agree, that is a valid point, and there may be some outspoken individuals who do exactly that.
Further commenting on the incompetence: I have mentioned to new players who were commenting on forums, that if they don’t purchase land, don’t open a business, don’t open a sim, they may never really become aware of problems on the SL grid. They may crash, lag, or have other issues, but since they’re not paying $$$ or trying to manage a group or run a business, the major issues of SL don’t have the impact they have otherwise. But a guy trying to run a sim, a group and a merchant business, someone who builds or scripts or designs clothing, runs into these problems all the time.
But even those who don’t spend $$$ can still quickly become frustrated when group chat refuses to work, when they don’t receive an important group notice, when something that is supposed to work, simply doesn’t (and they don’t have enough experience to understand what or why). Even long-time members can play SL without much in the way of mayhem if they aren’t a paying / land buying / scripter / builder / merchant member. Get into any one of those areas, and LL’s coding and design incompetence stands out like a sore thumb.
I’ll be honest though: I tolerated most of these problems until Linden Lab compounded these issues by raising the price of Open Space sims by 67% and forced the destruction of some 5,500 sims on SL– out of nothing but pure greed– and then had the gall to fraudulently blame their customers for doing so. That was the inexcusable last straw.
@Perceophone: “You stay in SL because they do it better than anyone else. But your it is your choice, and you’re solely responsible for that choice.”
Sorry Percephone, but that is completely incorrect. What isn’t being examined by that statement is the societal / friend / neighborhood influence and impact on people’s lives. In this statement, what you’re saying is that Second Life really doesn’t matter, that it’s not important to people, and that they should just be able to leave any time they like. That’s not true. Second Life for some is their entire social community. They have friends and even “family” there… and deciding to leave is not the simplistic, unemotional, dehumanizing model you present. Second Life is indeed like a “country”… complete with societies, “cities” (and even states), and an oppressive and ineffective totalitarian “government”.
@ Percephone: “I’m quite happy with most of what Linden Labs does and you whiners are irrelevant to the rest of us.”
Extremely unsympathetic, disrespectful and self-centered attitude set aside, the statement is a lie. If it was “irrelevant” to you, you wouldn’t be commenting on this blog. You’d just go about your totally pleasant SL life and ignore what’s written on the Herald. Sorry Perce… but busted. ; )
Frankly though, to echo your attitude, I don’t really care how satisfied you personally are with Linden Lab and Second Life. There is no reason for me to begrudge you that at all… but there is also no reason to consider that as an influential opinion. Your personal satisfaction has nothing to do with the reality that folks like you are quite obviously a minority. The vast majority of SL residents are NOT happy with Second Life, and the “everything is roses” outlook is not going to stop one of the “whiners” (translated: paying customers who are royally ticked off with LL’s self-serving, abusive, monopolistic attitudes) from taking the company down in a severe class action lawsuit.
Rose colored glasses never have altered reality.
@Percephone: “It’s not like a country because you voluntarily come and go.”
Uh… I can come voluntarily come and go in the United States too. So by your definition… that’s not a country?
Now that said, I will minimally accept that SL may not be a “country” (or it very well may be). So how about we suffice to call it a “society with government” (or lack thereof) and use the word “country” as the best close definition of such a device? Of course if you don’t want to that’s your choice, but I think you can kinda count on it that your personal choice isn’t going to much alter the opinions of others here who disagree with you.
If I may politely suggest Percephone (with all good intent and no animosity): I would recommend giving these issues more thought, and definitely putting more thought process to your statements before posting them. You’re entitled to your opinions, but myself, I’d recommend those opinions were a bit better thought out and reasoned on before presenting them to the world. (Not that it really matters at all. ;D
@ Percephone: “But hell, if you’re going to be this easy to exploit, can you really blame anyone for doing so?”
Wow, some folks just seem to spout the first thought that crosses their mind.
Perce, tell me, if drug users are “so easy to exploit”… what, we’re not supposed to blame the drug dealers? Innocent people are “easy to exploit”… so we’re not supposed to hold accountable the criminals that attack them?
I’ve seen jaded perspectives before, and surely these days people have valid reason for having them, but personally, I wouldn’t want to live in your world where the feelings and opinions of others don’t matter and the weak deserve to be exploited. That’s just a very sad mentality.
@Perceopone (yet again): “Hehe…I win.”
Hehe… uh.. it’s not a contest. It’s so far as I was aware, a rational and realistic discussion on the general state of SL (well, for most of us anyway). If you’re viewing this as a “you lose I win” situation… well, uh… ok. That’s fine. Now Senban, Jake, Tux, where were we before we were interrupted? ; )
@Senban: “I guess I’m referring to groups that have attempted to take the game outside of the boundaries, groups that have attempted to gain overt or covert control over the experiences of others. The problem is that LL did indeed create a country. Unfortunately they created an anarchic state which is tumbling towards a failed state.”
Well-stated. And yes, the anarchistic state they created has allowed users to heavily abuse the situation, no doubt about that. So we’re all I think pretty much agreed (with one noted exception) that SL is in a bad state, some customers are abusive, but ultimately LL is responsible for conducting business so poorly. Is that a fair summation?
General Drama
May 31st, 2010
Jake,
It wasn’t the greed of nasty running dog capitalists like myself, it was the theiving materialism of content theives who chose to copybot, stealing the hard work of real creators, even some of Dan Linden’s finest bug hunters, who stole copies of my exchange ATMs in a failed attempt to hack my exchange, as well as many others. The greed of fraudsters who perpetrated cons hidden behind anonymous avatars (conversely, I was the first self identified CEO in SL and refused to invest in any company that wasn’t similarly identified, much to the vile distain of the many con artist alts out there)…
Beyond that, there was the blatant seizure, without due process or appeal, of the property of users by the Lab itself, their money, property, content, and avatar accounts. SL stopped growing for the same reason that any anti-property government causes economic growth to come to a standstill and regress. Countries that refuse to protect the property rights of their residents lose economically. Pure and simple. Linden Lab stopped, not only protecting our property from third party fraudsters, but stopped protecting our property from its own greedy clutches.
Now, most people are used to and can deal with anonymous nobodies pulling minor cons of a few lindens at a time. You learn to not trust other individuals until you see something from them that gives them credibility: positive references from others (but yeah, LL got rid of the ratings system, which made that harder), significant land ownership or original content for sale for respectable prices.
But what nobody can tolerate is the de facto state, Linden Lab, being the biggest theives, not respecting property rights of any kind. Not tolerating freedom of speech, freedom from seizure, rights of due process, etc. Linden Lab is running a kleptocracy. It’s not anarchy in SL, it is kleptocracy, with some window dressing of “governance” being ‘zoning’ that in reality is merely another con to sell more e-land for ever higher prices even when the overall market is in the tank.
No country can grow and thrive when its government is no longer believed in by the people, and this happens most distinctly when that government sees its people as nothing but cows to be milked and led to the slaughter.
Senban Babii
May 31st, 2010
@Wayfinder
“Well-stated. And yes, the anarchistic state they created has allowed users to heavily abuse the situation, no doubt about that. So we’re all I think pretty much agreed (with one noted exception) that SL is in a bad state, some customers are abusive, but ultimately LL is responsible for conducting business so poorly. Is that a fair summation?”
Yes, I’d agree with this although I think I’d expand one point you made. We can think of “conducting business” in terms of the actual spreadsheets and board meetings and so on kind of business. But I think they are also responsible for conducting business poorly in terms of day to day governance of a world. I haven’t been around as long as many of you but even in my three years I’ve seen demonstrated pure greed, corruption and favoritism. They are the Game Gods but we have seen them and they have feet of clay.
@General Drama
“No country can grow and thrive when its government is no longer believed in by the people, and this happens most distinctly when that government sees its people as nothing but cows to be milked and led to the slaughter.”
+1
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2010
@Wayfinder “Perce, tell me, if drug users are “so easy to exploit”… what, we’re not supposed to blame the drug dealers? Innocent people are “easy to exploit”… so we’re not supposed to hold accountable the criminals that attack them?”
Here you’re making a completely dishonest analogy. When a criminal victimizes someone, we’re not talking about a consensual transaction. On the other hand your choice to use SL is 100 percent a consensual transaction you make with Linden Labs. Does Linden Labs force you to use SL? Then how can you compare yourself to the victim of a crime? You made a choice, and you should grow up and accept some responsibility for that choice. Don’t pretend to be a victim here.
And in the case of drugs, we are also talking about a consensual transaction. Should the liquor store owner be held responsible for causing alcoholism? Or should adults who choose to consume alcohol accept responsibility for their choice to use a potentially dangerous, toxic, and addictive substance? Holding the liquor store owner responsible for their role in providing addicts with drugs was the rationale behind Prohibition. That disastrous policy gave rise to the murderous and wealthy gansters of the 20s like Al Capone. Likewise, the war on drugs — based on the same flimsy rationale that adults are not responsible for their choices to consume intoxicating substances — has given rise to a host of unintended consequences and violence that make Capone look like minor thug.
And this is why SL is not a country. You choose to use SL. If your experience is dissatisfying, and you continue to use it, you need to accept responsibility for your decisions. This is not to invalidate complaints that are communicated to the Linden Labs in hopes they’ll work differently to provide you better service that fits your needs. I have complaints to.
But when you children begin your little protests of SL, where you act like victims of some oppressive dictator — and you complete this silly ensemble with paranoid conspiracy theories of demon capitalists — you don’t sound like dissatisfied customers. You sound like children throwing a temper tantrum over your lack of control over the situation. And no smart business would or should waste their time trying to please you.
Wayfinder
May 31st, 2010
@Senban: “But I think they are also responsible for conducting business poorly in terms of day to day governance of a world. I haven’t been around as long as many of you but even in my three years I’ve seen demonstrated pure greed, corruption and favoritism. They are the Game Gods but we have seen them and they have feet of clay.”
I couldn’t have said it better… and could not agree more.
@Percephony: “Here you’re making a completely dishonest analogy. When a criminal victimizes someone, we’re not talking about a consensual transaction. On the other hand your choice to use SL is 100 percent a consensual transaction you make with Linden Labs.”
Perce, you continue to fail to look at the broader picture… and then wrongly blame the victims rather than the victimizer. In doing so, you become the supporter enabler of the criminal element– and therefore gain no respect from me or others who clearly see your outlook for what it really is: support and condoning of unethical activity. Question: are you by chance yet another Linden posing as a user on the Herald?
Consider Linden Lab to be the “con man” type of criminal. They promise certain things, sucker in people (who believe they are conducting business legitimately rather than with a criminal element), then are abused by that criminal element. The transaction is “consensual”… but still wrong.
“And in the case of drugs, we are also talking about a consensual transaction. Should the liquor store owner be held responsible for causing alcoholism?”
Do you know how drug dealers work Percephone? It is quite common that they give people a free “hit”, preying on their curiosity to get them hooked. The transaction– while consensual– is still illegal. I cannot believe you’re defending drug dealers and not viewing addicts as victims. They most certainly ARE victims– a fact that Federal Law will verify. As for alcoholics, you tell me: a liquor store sells liquor to a guy who is obviously plastered already and who they know is an alcoholic. Yes, legally they may not be held responsible. Ethically– well, that’s another matter isn’t it?
There are alcoholics and drug users who are by no means victims; they victimize. But if you’re trying to compare customers of Second Life to such people, you can bark at that piece of wind all you want and no one is going to believe it.
“But when you children begin your little protests of SL, where you act like victims of some oppressive dictator”… blah blah blah
Frankly Perce, the only commenter I see here acting like a child… is you. While all the other commenters here seem to have a fairly well-rounded and experienced outlook, you seem to be a “newb” whose tunnel-vision view is fairly clueless to the wide variety of aspects of dealing with Linden Lab.
So let me clue you in, “child”, to a fact of posting in such discussions: if you want people to consider and respect your opinions, you need to respect theirs. You obviously have no respect for the opinions and posts of others here– so you’ll not be surprised if I tell you that I find your comments to be largely drivel that has not been thought through and that resorts to labeling and attacking other users to support a rather lame position.
I don’t agree with some of the posts here and in some cases consider them to be wrong, but at least I respect the posters. You have not earned even that. So I have to question at this point: if we’re all “irrelevant” to you… why do you continue to post here? But even further: what are you actually hoping to accomplish? Do you seriously think insulting other users is going to win anyone over to your opinion?
You called this a contest. If that is the point, the goal would be to achieve some sort of positive goal, yes? What is your goal– to throw a tantrum while telling others they’re doing the same? LOL. Sorry, you just “lost” bigtime.
Sigh, there is no end to drama queens, both in-world and off.
Wayfinder
May 31st, 2010
BTW, just for the record:
Yes, in many areas both a liquor store and a bar can be held legally and even criminally responsible for selling alcohol to someone obviously inebriated. So well, yeah, to answer your question, they ARE the victimizers in such case. At least, the law views them as such.
Strife Onizuka
May 31st, 2010
Sad to see Jeska leave the lab.
Wayfinder
May 31st, 2010
Yeah Strife. There’s some good ones, and often they’re the ones that leave… for one reason or another. I often wonder whether they’re given the boot… or just get tired of the runaround. No way to tell.
Wayfinder
May 31st, 2010
@Pixeleen: I don’t know how I missed this line the first read, but…
“Now that Jeska is out of action, the most logical choice to help bring the community together at the SLCC this year may be none other than noted community organizer Prokofy Neva. Seriously.”
Seriously?
Well, I’ve never heard Prokofy referred to as a “community organizer”… LOL. I don’t know whether to take that comment as satire or seriously odd… but hey, whatever floats yer boat. Personally, I could foresee users heading for the lifeboats. LOL
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2010
“Question: are you by chance yet another Linden posing as a user on the Herald?”
This is a fine example of the silly paranoia and demonstrates the weakness of your case. It’s not based on any rational assessment of the situation. It’s just a blind expression of powerlessness.
Let me ask you. If individual adult is not responsible for his or her choice of intoxicants, how can other adults make that choice better? See, I live by the philosophy that people should be free to do whatever they want so long as they harm no one else. The only way that idea works is if people are held responsible for those choices. Otherwise, you have to limit those choices in order to protect people from themselves.
And that’s what you’re advocating here. You’re saying that an adult cannot choose to buy alcohol whenever he or she damn well pleases. Instead, a third party adult, who for reasons you didn’t explain is more capable of making the best choice in that customer’s interest. So now freedom of choice must be limited to protect people from themselves.
And you believe this shit…”It is quite common that they give people a free “hit”, preying on their curiosity to get them hooked.”
It shows your pure and utter ignorance and how much you don’t trust people to make their own choices. Apparently, you’ve been brainwashed by the DARE programs.
Free samples are a common marketing practice. If I offer you a prim hair demo, is that “preying” on you? Why are you not able to determine whether or not there is value in purchasing more?
You also make the stupid assumption that people who try drugs get “hooked.” Bullshit. According to the government’s own data, only about 6 percent of those who have tried crack, powder cocaine, or methamphetamine have done so at any time in the past month. So, a full 94 percent of people try these drugs and then go at least a month without doing it again. And the 6 percent are hardly addicts. I had a drink last week, and that hardly makes me an alcoholic. Apparently, people are much more capable of making their own choices than you give them credit for.
But people like you buy into this bullshit that says that people can not enjoy free association. If they do, they become evil, demon capitalists preying on the helplessness of others. Or they are helpless themselves and need some powerful authority to limit their choices and tell them what is best for them.
So, we come back to SL. You’re a dissatisfied customer, and you want to pretend you’ve been wronged by some horrible injustice. But yet you make a choice to continue consuming the product Linden Labs produces. And you don’t want to accept any responsibility for this. Complain all you want that Linden Lab’s isn’t satisfying you as a customer. But if you’re not willing to leave and are willing to keep paying for the same service that you claim is so horrible, then obviously, from a business perspective, there’s no reason to change anything to suit your needs. Why would they if you’ll keep paying for it?
And finally, there’s this claim that I’m trying to force my opinions on you. You, Senban, Tux, and Jake (possible one of the same) are sitting here nodding in unison. Then I come along and disrupt your little echo chamber and offer another point of view. And since then, not one of you can seem to spell my name right, and you want to talk about respecting differing opinions? I’m sorry, but disagreeing with you is not the same as being disrespectful. Learn to spell my name and you can talk about respect.
And with that, I’ll now leave you to gnaw on your keyboard and pray that some big powerful savior protects you from the mean ol’ Linden Labs that produces a product you continue to choose to consume. Your choice. Your fault. Simple as that.
Gaara Sandalwood
May 31st, 2010
hey Percy. How goes the trolling?
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2010
*Gaara If I’m trolling, you just gave me what I want.
I’m happy to step up as the sole voice of dissent here. And while that does mean I have to disagree with everyone in this echo chamber, just because my ideas are not popular doesn’t make it trolling.
Kiddoh
May 31st, 2010
@Gaara: If Persephone were trolling, she’s failing at it constantly. No Offence.
@Everyone:
If you guys honestly believe your sides of the story, you all need to defend it as legitimately as possible- trolls or not.
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2010
“If you guys honestly believe your sides of the story, you all need to defend it as legitimately as possible- trolls or not.”
Including you.
Kiddoh
May 31st, 2010
Hey-now, that’s exactly what I’ve been doing.
Gaara Sandalwood
May 31st, 2010
Well, two things:
1. I didn’t give you what you wanted, unless you were looking for a simple response. The least you could so is try to make me annoyed at you. Then you could at least claim some form of victory.
2. The whole sole voice of dissent thing is really cute. I’ve tried that, about two years back. It doesn’t work. It just got me proved incredibly wrong, and, in a few cases, heavily trolled by a few individuals. As for here, I’ve tried that here somewhat. Being the sole voice of dissent never works. Because there are always people who will refute against what you say similarly to how you refute against what they say. Example: NeoCitizen will always make potshots no matter what you say in regards to his posts. Unfixible has been constantly going at it on the recent topics because they either have some small thing at the very least to do with WU or because WU memebrs chose to post in it(in fact, I bet he’ll swoop in to whine about his little “Unfixible’s Law” and how it has yet again been proven soon because I merely mentioned WU. O:).
Now, I think I’ll jump into a few. I’m bored atm.
“It shows your pure and utter ignorance and how much you don’t trust people to make their own choices. Apparently, you’ve been brainwashed by the DARE programs.
Free samples are a common marketing practice. If I offer you a prim hair demo, is that “preying” on you? Why are you not able to determine whether or not there is value in purchasing more?”
Free samples are a market practice yes, I love them.
Drug selling is not a market practice. It’s drug selling. A drug seller, and I’m not saying all drug sellers, could do it for the purpose of addicting people to his stuff, in hopes it keeps them coming back. I say not every because I’ve known some who sold pot, and many I’ve seen don’t try to addict their customers. I’ve known a couple that charged high prices, but not tried to keep their customer’s from coming back for more.
Hair, sure. It does have me addicted, I’ll admit. I love Calico, DK, etcetera….moving on though.
But even still, not every drug seller does it to abide by economy view. Some do it to hook people. They seek to make profit. There are people like this in the world. And some of LL, if not a vast majority of them, whether intentionally or not, by their actions, appear to be such types of people.
LL has removed people who were loved by residences. Some that the residences didn’t want to go. And even if not directly removed, some have left because they no longer wanted to be a part of what it was becoming.
I honestly don’t see how my choices in SL(which, atm, are really to do nothing and hang out at a virtual club from time to time out of pure boredom and to chat with in-world friends I’ve known since I started playing)affect this, and make it my fault.
I’m not demanding LL become tidy and neat as anything could possibly be. Hell, I’m not demanding anything. I’m just hoping LL could do(or rather could have done) a better job. There was a bug that caused stuff in people’s inventory to disappear that was around for years. I dunno if it’s fixed now or still around, but if it is they sure took their time with it. Similarly, there’s been a group bug. I experienced this today even, logged in and even though my October Undead tag was on me I didn’t show as being a member of any groups until I re-logged. Evidence that to this day they have chosen not to fix it or to not put too much effort into it.
“So, we come back to SL. You’re a dissatisfied customer, and you want to pretend you’ve been wronged by some horrible injustice. But yet you make a choice to continue consuming the product Linden Labs produces. And you don’t want to accept any responsibility for this. Complain all you want that Linden Lab’s isn’t satisfying you as a customer. But if you’re not willing to leave and are willing to keep paying for the same service that you claim is so horrible, then obviously, from a business perspective, there’s no reason to change anything to suit your needs. Why would they if you’ll keep paying for it?”
If I was a paying customer, I’d stop paying the day I started. That aside, people continue to pay because they want their in-world land(I really never understood why, but that seems to be the case). The point is, it has been said before here(in this topic), that some people hold onto SL more than as a game, and treat it as their social life. Some people are attached that damn much to it. And even they may complain about it. You seem to know a bit about marketting from what I’ve seen. And as such, even you have to at least understand the concept that anything, any product advertised for people, any product sold to people, will sell less if it is messed up. Didn’t…..bah, I can’t be arsed to go that far back. On another topic, someone posted statistics of active user accounts on various online games. According to that list, about five other popular online games, including WoW, were getting more active users on average than SL. SL was getting an estimated around…..2 mil or 200k, I forget, one of the two…and that’s counting just the accounts, not by IP and whatnot and dissecting how many are alts, and how many actual players there are. If LL did a better job with SL, then maybe SL would have a lot more players, and garner more interest and enjoyment from players.
Gaara Sandalwood
May 31st, 2010
Oh, almost forgot this: Thye’d also make more money that way with more satisfied and continuing paying customers. So why they don’t try to do a better job seems kind of arbitrary to me. :/
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2010
“And even if not directly removed, some have left because they no longer wanted to be a part of what it was becoming.”
Excellent! Good for them. That’s what you should do if you’re unhappy with LL’s products. Why doesn’t Wayfinder if he’s so unhappy? And how is his choice to stay victimizing him? That’s the question that I’m raising.
“I’m just hoping LL could do(or rather could have done) a better job.”
Me too! And I have plenty of complaints and have downsized the level of business I do with them in response to my dissatisfaction with some of their decisions. And if any competitor offered something better, I’d be gone in a second. Wouldn’t think twice about it. You do understand that you’re not disagreeing with me on anything here? In fact, we’re in complete agreement.
Your understanding of the economics of prohibition is flat wrong, but why go off on that tangent?
“If I was a paying customer, I’d stop paying the day I started.”
Good for you! That’s what you should do. I’m glad you understand that.
Question is, do you think someone is oppressed if they personally choose to continue paying for a product or service that they claim doesn’t satisfy them? Would you say it’s like being under the thumb of an evil dictator?
That’s what I’m arguing. Not whether or not the criticism against LL is legitimate, fair, or reasonable. Some is. Some isn’t.
What I’m arguing is that Wayfinder and his clique pretend to be a bunch of little Che Guevera’s mounting a rebellion to save the helpless masses from their enslavement in ignorance. Give me a break. There’s nothing but freedom of choice here. And if they choose to stay, it is a personal choice. You can’t be oppressed by your own choices.
JR Mekanic
May 31st, 2010
Based upon conversations I have had with LL HR staff, my best guess is that LL has about $2M in after payroll expenses to work with each month, to pay for operational costs and taxes. With around 300 employees and that amount of cash to work with, its going to take quite a big event for LL to fail, and with that amount of cash, through good management, they just might steer this company into something more than we all thought it could be.
Wayfinder
May 31st, 2010
@Gaara: “They’d also make more money that way with more satisfied and continuing paying customers.”
Which is the main point, and well said. Linden Lab has consistently put money-making schemes ahead of customer best interest, and in doing so have effectively cut off the best source of increasing income: satisfied customers. They’ve earned one of the worst reputations in the industry, are KNOWN for unstable, buggy software, and as such have thrown potential growth profits out the window.
@JR Mekanic: “its going to take quite a big event for LL to fail, and with that amount of cash, through good management, they just might steer this company into something more than we all thought it could be.”
A valid post. And yes, that would be quite possible, if Linden Lab management over the last 6 years had ever shown a lick of sense. They haven’t. So despite their profits… imo they’re heading for a brick wall.
Linden Lab’s business model is “parasitical”. A parasite finds a host, feeds off that host, grows and even thrives… right down until it kills the host. When the host dies, the parasite dies. The parasite may figure it’s doing great. Lots of food. Exactly right conditions, then wham! Host gone.
Linden Lab doesn’t serve their customers; they prey on them. That business method has been obvious almost ever since I joined the group. They are trying to suck as much blood as they can out of their customers. Typically a business that operates in such manner takes the parasite course: they grow, they thrive, they become quite profitable… then the host dies. Right now, despite all the rosy outlooks and “they could get better!” forecasts, Linden Lab has not one but TWO Federal class-action lawsuits against them (and I predict more to come). They experienced a major, major dissatisfaction rate with their new Viewer. People are migrating to other projects (I just found out today Inworldz expanded by close to 200 sims in just one month. Take THAT Linden Lab). There are so very many things that could serve to totally kill Linden Lab overnight, that I’ve recommended to my group members to stop investing, period. Our group has stopped investing; prior to the OpenSpace fiasco we were going to build a mini-continent. Instead, we killed 6 sims, move down to bare maintenance land, and we’re moving toward external grids.
Yes, if they had even an ounce of common sense, Linden Lab could pull out of their situation and improve the company. It’s not too late. But in the last two years I have not only seen zero improvement– I’ve seen degradation in both performance and policies (and I’m a professional analyst). What shocks me is that now even the everyday Joe can see what I’ve been seeing for 5 years… which should be a real big wakeup call to Linden Lab. In the last 2 years they have experienced ZERO growth. Their population size and concurrency size has remained the same. So while your statement is quite valid and sensible, I think it just a little optimistic. Unless Linden Lab makes a total 180 degree turnaround, that company is headed for a head-long into a solid granite wall.
@Percephone: “Blah blah blah whine whine whine tantrum tantrum drama drama”…
I’ve decided to ignore the continued rants. Seriously, I really don’t care what opinion someone has, and I don’t really even care if it’s logical or not, so long as they maintain a respectful attitude and are willing to discuss things with other people as peers. You don’t, you haven’t, you won’t… and you look down your nose at other posters, considering your obviously awesome experience and knowledge above theirs. You act like a teenager who thinks he knows more than everyone else.
And yes, you act like a Linden who is posing as a poster. That’s not paranoia; that’s pretty much reality. That’s how the company has operated in the past and I wouldn’t put it past you one minute to deny being a Linden when you are. Your propaganda line echoes the company line down to the letter. I’ve actually caught Lindens in the act… so paranoia? Naw. Your response convinces me ever more. It’s irrelevant whether you are or not; the attitude is identical.
So pardon, I have better use of my time than to listen to “I’m right and everyone else is wrong and I’m the one single flame of relevance and you’re all irrelevant whiners and children throwing tantrums” (whine whine, stomp stomp, tantrum tantrum) …ad nauseum.
I don’t tolerate self-indulgent babble… which is about all that that you’ve been saying amounts to. Feel free to continue of course… but you’ll be wasting your time, not mine.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Wayfinder Right. Everyone that disagrees with you is a Linden. What other explanation could there be for someone not sharing your viewpoint, unless they’re part of that evil conspiracy called Linden Labs?
Tux
Jun 1st, 2010
Linden Lab
And I think some Liden’s are good guys =)
I just think they may have their hands tied and mouths gagged by their peers as they are simple to few to make a difference.
But I would just like to say:
Hey Plexibaby (am guessing Kalel can pass this on), now your free to play with the spandex super zeros to your hearts content. And never forget, there is always someone who knows that little bit more that you!