Staff Killer Plague Decimates Linden Lab Governance Team
by Pixeleen Mistral on 27/05/10 at 11:55 am
What is behind the sudden disappearance of former Linden governance team staff members? Colton Linden and Plexus Linden are no longer found in the Second Life search people tab, and a reliable source informed the Herald that Teagan Linden will succumb to the staff killer plague within 2 weeks now that she has given her notice to the Lab.
The departure of Teagan will mark the removal of half the former governance team – a group charged with swinging the ban hammer to keep unruly residents in line. Downsizing the G-team may be a cost saving measure brought on by sagging interest in Second Life – we note that the median player concurrency levels continue to swoon despite the Lab’s new Second Life viewer software — but it is also possible the staff plague is simply a case of office politics taken to its logical conclusion. Linden Lab is well known for factional infighting within the game god ranks.
the Justice League loses a true friend
The passing of Plexus and Teagan Linden are likely to be mourned by the Kalel Venkman and the Justice League Unlimited – a group of vigilantes known for filing frivolous DMCA takedown notices, gang abuse reports, and courting game god favors. Plexus in particular appears to have been a reliable ally for the spandex clad vigilante group. The Herald previously reported JLU claims that Plexus leaked player identity information to the Justice League and his on-going encouragement of what seems to be trademark infringement. Sadly, the death of Plexus makes it unlikely that Herald requests for an interview to verify the JLU claims will be answered.
Jeska reincarnated
In what may be related news, community manager Jeska Linden also perished, but was then miraculously reincarnated under her real life name and now plays Second Life as Jeska Dzwigalski.
Speculation that the slow progress on organizing the Second Life Community Convention for this summer is related to the departure of the community manager is likely to follow. While some will hail the continuing removal of staff from Philip Linden’s reign as proof that M Linden is fixing Second Life, the ongoing loss Linden Lab’s corpoate memory dos not bode well for improving player relations with the Lab.
What can be done? Now that Jeska is out of action, the most logical choice to help bring the community together at the SLCC this year may be none other than noted community organizer Prokofy Neva. Seriously.
Tux
Jun 1st, 2010
@me – fail for typo – Liden’s = Linden’s
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Perse: “Everyone that disagrees with you is a Linden. What other explanation could there be for someone not sharing your viewpoint, unless they’re part of that evil conspiracy called Linden Labs?”
Well, another possibility is they’re just plain goofy. ;D
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Tux: “I think some Liden’s are good guys =). I just think they may have their hands tied and mouths gagged by their peers as they are simple to few to make a difference. ”
I agree. I’ve known some Lindens that are good people. I’m sure there are a lot more that I haven’t met. In truth, I’ve always thought that being a LL coder must be an extremely frustrating experience. There’s two possibilities: either they’re the most incompetent coders I’ve ever seen and just have no clue how to fix anything… or they know what needs fixed, possibly even have an idea how to fix it… and someone is preventing them from doing so.
If the later is true, that would drive me totally nutz. I’d quit a job like that. So yeah, I can’t disagree with you. Chances are there’s lots of Lindens who don’t like how things are run– but they don’t make the decisions.
IntLibber Brautigan
Jun 1st, 2010
Persephone Bolero,
“And this is why SL is not a country. You choose to use SL. If your experience is dissatisfying, and you continue to use it, you need to accept responsibility for your decisions.”
You evidently have no clue what is and is not a country.
You freely choose, in any non-totalitarian state, whether to live where you are. Sometimes however, you are stuck there by obligations or other reasons: family that cannot or will not move, assets that are frozen or prevented from being liquidated or expatriated.
Immigration is the right of all human beings, the right to vote with your feet, although this option is often not possible except at the risk of losing everything you own, and everyone you care about. How much is freedom of value to you or not?
Many of us were fraudulently enticed into investing large quantities of money into SL, with the promise by the lab that they respected and protected our property rights: to our sims, our land, our content, our avatars. By the time it became evident to many of us that the lab was reneging on its contracted promises, our investments had become worth much less than their original value, and the Lab’s policies made it difficult to earn a profit at all on these investments.
Much like the investments made by Henry Ford in the early Soviet Union before Stalin took over and engaged in his genocidal purges, I and many others found our assets trapped in an increasingly tyrannical system run by a kleptocracy of thieves.
By this time, just “leaving” was not possible without taking a nearly complete loss. So telling me to fuck off and leave really wasn’t a viable option, and smacks of the sort of excuse made by any apologist for tyranny in any world.
It is not my “responsibility” that I and many others were lied to by Linden Lab. Hence the class action lawsuit. It is the labs responsibility, and they will be held responsible.
You can keep making excuses for their bad behavior, but as time goes on, your blatant aplogia for these rogues becomes rather obvious and lame.
Kiddoh
Jun 1st, 2010
I don’t agree with people having a freedom of choice in regards to SL or at least not everyone.
Some people either:
A) Are dependent on their E-jobs in SL (it’s sad I know, but it’s true).
B) are unaware of alternative options.
C) are bound by friends and family within SL.
D) Silly E-mafias/military/JLU got their pride and can’t leave or else they consider the other guys as the winners.
E) Everything that Prok revolves her life around, revolves in SL.
F) A lot of people put in a lot of hard work and they just can’t abandon it.
People aren’t computers and they can very well become attached to some of the silliest of things.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@IntLibber. Here’s something I said earlier. It’s a direct quote: “I have plenty of complaints and have downsized the level of business I do with them in response to my dissatisfaction with some of their decisions. And if any competitor offered something better, I’d be gone in a second. Wouldn’t think twice about it. ”
Tell me how that’s “blatant apologia.” If you can’t do that, then obviously you fired off a response based on what you thought I had written rather than what you had actually read. You had a preconceived notion of what you thought my argument was and never bother to understand it. And the end result is that you wasted a lot of time typing up a response to an argument that was never made. Good job. Pat yourself on the back.
Then try and tell me with a straight face that I could immigrate to France from America as easily as logging off SL. Seriously. You expect anyone to buy that silly statement?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Kiddoh
Not a single one of the things you listed FORCES anyone to stay in SL. It just shows that staying in SL gains them something they find more valuable than they would have if they left SL. So they keep coming back.
It’s still a choice.
Kiddoh
Jun 1st, 2010
No, it’s an illusion of choice. It’s the same as someone continue to work for a job they really hate and it’s because of the above reasons why some people are never able to leave their terrible jobs.
If you want to get really technical. Choice does not exist and everything that is put in front of us is merely situational.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Kiddoh Well, by your rationale you can make the argument that Linden Labs had no choice. They just had to make the decisions they do because it was too difficult or too costly to make other ones. Would you agree? If you think they had a choice, why don’t you think their customers do?
And comparing logging off SL to leaving a job is again nothing more than your silly attempts to make yourselves out to be victims of some great injustice as opposed to dissatisfied customers who keep paying for the service you claim causes you so much suffering. If you log off of SL, you won’t starve. You may give up something that you’re not willing to give up, which means the value you derive from SL is obviously greater than the price you pay for putting up with Linden Lab’s decisions. I’m not saying that doesn’t give you the right to complain. I’m saying it doesn’t make you a helpless victim of oppression.
Fact is, this world is full of true victims of oppression that face torture and death without any way to escape it. When you equate yourselves with them, you really trivialize real suffering in the world.
You’re not oppressed. You’re dissatisfied. There’s a difference.
Kiddoh
Jun 1st, 2010
Hey-now, I merely said I disagree with people having a choice to leave SL and I still disagree. You don’t know my actual stance on the subject of SL because I have yet to make it known. But over-all the “there’s worse out there” approach is a terrible way to go about making your stance. There are people out there who get raped, beheaded, mutilated, and left out on a pike in front of villages to scare away enemies- so should that make average rape okay simply because there’s worse out there? No, it shouldn’t and I think it’s time you used a different argument.
Also; You really need to stop ranting.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
Percephone: “@IntLibber. Here’s something I said earlier. It’s a direct quote: “I have plenty of complaints and have downsized the level of business I do with them in response to my dissatisfaction with some of their decisions. And if any competitor offered something better, I’d be gone in a second. Wouldn’t think twice about it. ”
Percephone earlier: “I’m quite happy with most of what Linden Labs does and you whiners are irrelevant to the rest of us.”
Guys, I think it’s time to realize this clown is just a trouble maker who enjoys pushing other people’s buttons. Drama queen, troll, flamer, whatever you want to call her… her posts have all the validity and intelligence of toe fungus. “Don’t feed the trolls.” ; )
Danziel Lane
Jun 1st, 2010
@ Persephone: “It’s still a choice.”
Well, therapists, shrinks, counsellers, communications experts … they all know, when people feel to be forced into or by something or someone they still have a chance. It’s all a matter of perception.
However, nobody gets any help from a shrink yelling:” It’s a choice! It’s a choice!” A shrink looks from a meta position, and their job is to understand how much the client feels a need, force, wish, demand to do something that you might see as a choice.
Plus: does it really matter?
If we use the metaphor of a country or a community or a communication systems, yes, we have the choice to use it or to leave it … but we also have the choice to make it better.
Linden Labs offers a service to us, and any service provider should be very interested in those customers that tell their opinion about vigilant groups, mafia groups, the change from a governance team (G-Team) to a resident service team (RESI) with a following decrease of the manpower of that team, etc. etc.
People always have a choice: you took the choice to tell us: “SL is great as it is” … I would more like to have the choice to talk, to communicate with the service company about making a better service.
Best is to have not two, but three choices:
Love it, leave it …. or (help to) change it.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Kiddho “I merely said I disagree with people having a choice to leave SL and I still disagree”
And you’re wrong on that point, and I explained why.
@Wayfinder I AM generally happy and jackasses like you that demand we all be as dissatisfied with SL as a whole as you are, ARE irrelevant. We’re going to enjoy the imperfect world. And we’re not going to pretend we’re helpless victims against an evil conspiracy. And I assure you because our attitudes are much more reasonable and sincere, we’re going to be far more effective at communicating with the company to address our concerns than raving lunatics like yourself.
The question is not whether or not the complaints are valid. The question is whether or not the business practices of Linden Labs constitute an act of injustice. I say they don’t. You say “You’re stupid!”
@Daniel “but we also have the choice to make it better. ”
I agree. And at no time did I suggest otherwise. You need to go back and read my arguments. You don’t understand them and have made false conclusions of what you think I’m saying.
Danziel Lane
Jun 1st, 2010
@Persephone:
“You need to go back and read my arguments.”
Well, Persephone, when I go back to read your arguments, they so often contain phrases like “I AM generally happy and jackasses like you” … that makes it very hard for me to read on.
I have the idea that you know a bit of communication models, so where is the need to discuss things, but call the other jackass or worse?
Even if I find your arguments interesting, as long as I have to find them between your judgements about other speakers brain power or behaviour, I am not really motivated …
But you know the sender is in charge for the message they want to send, so if I had the impression that you talked about an either-or choice and that you did not notice that other writers talk of a force but mean their ethics, their need to stay with friends etc. … something in your text made me understand that would be your message.
“I agree. And at no time did I suggest otherwise.”
Good to hear that.
I for myself do not like to hear of vigilant groups supported by the service company, cause it makes an impression that some are better customers than others … and if the reason for being better is spandex clothing or the “I know a Linden” bragging … hmmm, for me it would be time then to communicate with the company about how to serve customers.
When I started SL, that silly bragging “I know a Linden, so you must do, as I want it”, really was a no-no … too bad that changed.
So, as I see it, many customers like SL, like their friends in SL, like the creativity or whatever and they feel “forced” not go give that up.
If they have another way to express their needs, why not. It’s good that we humans all are different.
But to call them jackasses and worse? They are citizens of SL, customers of LL … they are humans … and whatever we plan to build: a country, a city, a community, a communication system, a miracle, a virtual world, a computer software, we have to do it with those humans that are there to work with it … there are no others.
“You don’t understand them and have made false conclusions of what you think I’m saying.”
I tried to understand, but was distracted by thoughts about why you use words like jackass.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Daniel I treated Wayfinder *exactly* as he treated me. Go back and read his comments to me, especially the earlier ones. You’ll find long before I was calling him a jackass, he was acting like one.
You aren’t, and that’s why I treat you with much more respect. Perhaps you should read the entire conversation before drawing conclusions.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Daniel, just to help you out. Here’s an example of Wayfinder’s fine communication skills:
“Guys, I think it’s time to realize this clown is just a trouble maker who enjoys pushing other people’s buttons. Drama queen, troll, flamer, whatever you want to call her… her posts have all the validity and intelligence of toe fungus. “Don’t feed the trolls.” ; )”
But you have such an easy time understanding his point of view but not mine?
It's Unfixable
Jun 1st, 2010
So where’s the other half of this article? The part where it talks about the Lindens who got hired to replace the ones who left? I demand that the author finish writing this article.
Kiddoh
Jun 1st, 2010
“@Kiddho “I merely said I disagree with people having a choice to leave SL and I still disagree”
And you’re wrong on that point, and I explained why.”
You explained poorly and in a way that was not to my satisfaction. Try again.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Kiddoh “You explained poorly and in a way that was not to my satisfaction.”
The feeling is mutual.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 1st, 2010
“Excellent! Good for them. That’s what you should do if you’re unhappy with LL’s products. Why doesn’t Wayfinder if he’s so unhappy? And how is his choice to stay victimizing him? That’s the question that I’m raising.”
Oh, I intend to try Blue Mars at soem point, or something else, but I have friends who solely play SL unfortunately and use that as their main form of instant messaging(again, I really don’t understand why…).
But to answer this……..you claimed you’re just forming opinions and being the sole vocie of dissent here, and yet I’m seeing a lot of attempts to force opinion.
Also, as for leaving for a betetr product, it sounds like you either don’t know of the existence of other entertaining sandbox games or think they’re worse. Hehe.
“I think some Liden’s are good guys =). I just think they may have their hands tied and mouths gagged by their peers as they are simple to few to make a difference. ”
Let’s not forget, a Linden(Glenn Linden I beleive)left when WU was negotiating with LL on terms of their staying in SL and it was known she openly supported WU.
“And you’re wrong on that point, and I explained why.”
Actually, Kiddoh is very right. As I previously stated, some people prefer to use SL over messengers(I have friends in SL who have Gmail, but they’re on SL more than Gmail, so I can talk to them more often in SL). I am indeed stuck in SL for that reason, friends. Is it a choice to leave or stay? Yes, but it’s not so simple as saying “okay, I’m not satisfied here, g’bye”. No, it’s a difficult chocie, and it’d result, if I left, in an inability to talk to some friends I’ve known for aroudn a year now. One might as well say that’s not a chocie at all, but an ultimatum.
“The feeling is mutual.”
And yet again, you seem to eb showing that while you do hold your own opinion, it seems to be a narrow minded oen. This also shows that despite claims that you are not forcing your opinions on otehrs, you are attacking people who share different opinions with your own.
:/
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Gaara “it’s a difficult chocie”
Yes, it is. Because Linden Labs is doing a pretty good job on a lot of things that make it worth staying. Again, not saying you can’t complain, nor commenting on the validity of those complaints. I’m just putting things in perspective.
Now tell me this. Kiddoh said he was unconvinced by my arguments. I said I felt the same of his. How is that narrow minded? If I am narrow minded in saying that I feel the same way Kiddoh does, then you must believe he’s narrow minded too.
This has nothing to do with my opinion being narrow minded or that I’m “forcing” my opinion on others. It’s just like how Danziel criticizes my name calling of Wayfinder but is entirely oblivious of the very rude things Wayfinder said to me before I ever took that tone with him. It’s not about my name calling. It’s about me expressing unpopular opinions.
Fact is, you disagree with me. And any opinion that disagrees with you, you’ll find narrow minded.
That’s why Kiddoh can tell me that I’m unconvincing, but when I say that I feel the same of him, you claim I’m attacking people. Isn’t that interesting?
I’m sorry if you feel attacked in this message, but disagreeing with you and defending my case is NOT an attack.
Darkfoxx
Jun 1st, 2010
“It is not my “responsibility” that I and many others were lied to by Linden Lab. Hence the class action lawsuit. It is the labs responsibility, and they will be held responsible.”
It is however your (and everyone’s) responsibility to read the TOS. And that has, at least since ’05 when I joined up, always stated that LL can take your account, L$, inventory content and land, with or without a good reason or explanation. Maybe not as clear as it is now.
If you read the ‘Your World, Your Imagination’ as a promise rather then a little piece of marketing, I can indeed imagine you’ve been dissapointed by the new wording of the TOS. But this sort of marketing happens all over the world: a marketeer’s job is basically to sell people bullshit.
A Prius is still very much a polluting vehicle, no matter how many green and eco friendly labels Toyota puts on it, and the newest Windows version is still a piece of crap OS. Despite being better (I prefer to call it less horrible) then older versions.
LL has never really lied: they only changed the wording of the TOS to prevent (more) people from having the illusion they own anything at all, and can make any claims to that effect. Finally i’d say, because a LOT of people have made (and still make) this mistake.
If Henry Ford had been told by the early Soviet Union that they could possibly take everything he put in his buisness there, and not owe him any explanation, I am sure that things would have gone differently. Or the same, if he also hadnt read that specific fine print in the contract. But his excuse is that he never had such a contract (and warning) as we had (have) in the TOS.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Perce: “@Wayfinder I AM generally happy and jackasses like you…
…I assure you because our attitudes are much more reasonable and sincere, we’re going to be far more effective at communicating….”
And again we see your contradiction in attitude. Perce, you’re a two-faced troll. pure and simple.
And like most trolls I’ve dealt with over the years, you quote my very latest message where I call you a trollish clown and claim that I’m “attacking” you… playing the innocent party as all trolls do… oh my oh my big bad Wayfinder is attacking me way before I said anything sob sob sob– when that post was simply a statement of evaluation of your very clownish and trollish activities.
Troll / flamer mode of operation: attack others and then play the innocent, wounded party when they expose you for what you are. Like all such trolls I’ve dealt with, failing to stand on your own feet and finding others just as capable of you in your un-witty verbal repartee… you attempt to vilify your victims. Oh-so-innocent Percephone claims you don’t respect me because of the way I speak to you… when in truth you didn’t respect other users here from your very first posts. Instead of respecting to and responding to our opinions, you immediately resorted to personally attacking other users here, calling them whiners, children, and yes, jackasses. So please, spare us the “poor little me” whining. EPIC FAIL, drama queen.
You’re a troll / flamer and as Daniel very adequately pointed out, your attitude dilutes any possible valid point you may have made. I play an Elf in SL. I don’t tolerate trolls; I cut off their heads.
Now, let’s talk a little bit about just how incorrect and distorted our views are, shall we? Let’s discuss how much “propaganda” we’re stating here. In other words Perce, let’s get off your high horse and talk facts… and see who has a better thumb on the pulse of Second Life.
I was the first on on SL to publish that severe lag was primarily caused by server and coding issues rather than customer content. As typical, the trolls and flamers dove into that one and blasted me, just like you’re blasting us here. Lee Linden openly argued with me on the forums. Now we look back at that period (which was about four years ago) and wow, sunufagun, ol’ Wayfinder was right. Server performance and viewer/server coding just SUX. Imagine that.
I was the one who publicly blew the lid off the fact that Linden Lab was stacking sims on server boxes when they advertised and claimed they were not doing so. I told them that doing so would significantly slow down their system (others joined in that) and of course, both the Lindens and the trolls told me I was nuts… and as you’re doing here… resorted to personal attacks because well, that’s about all they had. Now low and behold, just a couple months ago Linden Lab announces that yes, stacked sims DO affect one another, even significantly, so Linden Lab is going to have to put governors and limits on what people can do on their sims. Gasp! Wayfinder was right again! Boy, that jackass is sure lucky! He wildly guessed the correct reality twice!
In the 5 1/2 years I have been on SL, I have accurately and openly predicted seven grid crashes within two weeks of their happening. I’m sure you’re unaware of that fact because I doubt you’re aware of the Elf Clan blogs. My friends in Elf Clan… they watched it happen. Those seven grid crashes were interestingly the ONLY grid crashes that happened on SL. So yeah, it’s pretty obvious Percephony, that I don’t know what I’m talking about, eh?
The moment Linden Lab announced their plans to hike the price of OpenSpace sims, I warned them of the dire consequences such would have on their grid. They ignored that warning. The rest is history and majorly documented. They lost over 4,000 sims. 1,500 other sims were destroyed when they were forced to convert to full sims. Total damage: 5,500 sims offline. Tens of thousands of customers left SL. They put OpenSim and Blue Mars on the map. They actually drove people to their competition. The result was so severe that just before the deadline… they semi-grandfathered the remaining sims so they wouldn’t lose them as well. Total damage: their decision resulted in the destruction of 20% of the privately-owned sims on SL… 16% of sims overall. So yeah, what, again I was just spouting propaganda Percephone?
Now, about this rosy-colored outlook of yours, and the pretty-visible contradictions in your statements… let’s examine those and how wonderfully well Linden Lab is doing.
As of April of this year, Second Life still had not recovered from the OpenSpace disaster. Both resident figures and concurrency figures have flatlined for the past two years. Despite Linden Lab propaganda (and yes, they DO employ propaganda, on a regular basis)… there has been ZERO GROWTH on Second Life for two years. Because of that, they focus on ethereal “sales figures”… which no one has the ability to double check to see where they are fudging (but I think we can count on the fact they’re fudging, significantly). LL refuses to employ or allow neutral third-party evaluation of their operation. Yet I and others here are the ones spouting propaganda?
I don’t think so Perceophone. I think we’re pretty much right on the money, and although not a betting man, I would bet dimes to donuts I have a more accurate and realistic outlook regarding SL than you do. If you want to live in your dying rose garden and smell the compost, hey, feel free. But four years from now when you look back and see the smoldering rubble of SL… well, I’d have to predict you’ll still have the same disrespectful, abusive, arrogant attitude you’ve shown here and will make some excuse or claims about how SL died because of the customers… rather than the severe and abusive actions of company management.
Seriously… do you even stop to read your own messages before posting them and ask yourself if your posts are really sensible? Or are you just getting an adrenaline high from the conflict?
Come back when you have some facts to back up your claims.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Darkfoxx: “It is however your (and everyone’s) responsibility to read the TOS. And that has, at least since ‘05 when I joined up, always stated that LL can take your account, L$, inventory content and land, with or without a good reason or explanation. Maybe not as clear as it is now.”
An interesting and valid statement Darkfoxx. However, I’m not sure I’d agree with it. Of course, I didn’t memorize the multitudinous LL TOS over the years, but I’m pretty sure when I joined there was no clause that said, “You as a user have no rights and we can shut you down and take your properties and lands without any warning whatsoever.”
No, I’m just pretty sure that statement didn’t exist until recently.
BUT… as a point of law… contractual agreements, even if clearly written and stated, cannot override State and Federal Law. That is one of the basics of business. Let me cite an extreme example just to make the point:
Let’s say that in the Linden Lab TOS they stated, “If Linden Lab so desires, we may come to your home and kidnap your firstborn child and cut off your big toe.” OK, someone clicks SURE, ATTACK ME! and uses their system. Any sane person realizes their TOS does not give them the legal rights to do the things stated. Why? Because it’s illegal.
In fact… because those things are illegal, the customer could go to court and have the entire TOS declared invalid– which has (to my recollection) happened in past LL court cases (don’t ask me to quote or cite…it’s been too long since I read about it).
But bottom line, Linden Lab stating, “We can shut down your account and steal your stuff and take your money” has no more validity than the extreme example I cited because, well… doing so is just plain illegal.
Which is why Linden Lab currently has two Federal Class-Action lawsuits filed against them, one of them dealing in the very things we are discussing here– Linden Lab arbitrarily and illegally shutting down people and their assets. No matter what the LL TOS says, no matter that the people clicked “I accept the terms”… where those terms are illegal and the TOS obviously coercive (agree or we’ll block you from accessing all your properties)… that TOS can be easily attacked by any competent attorney… and declared by a judge to be invalid as a whole.
In short, LL TOS means squat in court. The very wording of that document is its greatest downfall… as two prominent lawsuits are setting out to prove even as we speak. In short, Linden Lab stating “WE ARE GOD” does not make them so– especially in the eyes of State and Federal Government.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Wayfinder “Troll / flamer mode of operation: attack others and then play the innocent, ”
I didn’t play innocent, you moron. I made it clear I just met you on your level. Danziel claimed he couldn’t understand my arguments because I called you a jackass. I pointed out that you had plenty of names to call me long before I called you anything. If my argument is clouded by name calling, why isn’t your argument clouded by your name calling? Because Danziel could care less about my name calling. He simply doesn’t care for my opinion.
It comes down to this. You have no leg to stand on. So anyone that challenges your flimsy claims, you call them a troll. It’s an ad hominid attack by someone who has no rational counter arguments to offer.
That’s why you then go into your tirade about Linden Labs, which has nothing to do with my argument. I don’t defend their business decisions. I call bullshit on your silly claims that you’re an oppressed victim. You’re not. You’re just a pathetically miserable person that wants others to be as miserable as you.
I’ve seen plenty of this in other fantasy roleplayers. They go to sims, and when the sim owner does something they don’t like, they get frustrated over their own lack of control. So, they go around throwing temper tantrums, ruining all the roleplay, and spreading all kinds of drama in the hopes of generating further protest and having some kind of coercive force over the sim owner. What they won’t do is leave quietly.
It’s fine if you don’t want to leave. And it’s fine if you want to promote you baseless anti-Linden paranoia. But expect me to continue to point out the ridiculous flaws in your argument. If your only response to that is to call me a troll, so be it. Just don’t be surprised when I have few names of my own to call you…prick.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Percephone: Perce, I honestly can’t tell at this point whether you are simply a seriously delusional person or a bald-faced liar… or both… but bottom line…
yaaawwwnnn
Seriously, you attack other people right out of the chute and then whine when they fight back? And then you claim they started it?
And typically, you totally ignore all valid statements and data and like an animal backed into a corner hiss and spit ineffectively.
LOL… typical troll… typical flamer… and just plain lame. Honestly, I don’t think you have made one valid, documentable point in this entire thread.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Percephone: Perce, I honestly can’t tell at this point whether you are simply a seriously delusional person or a bald-faced liar… or both… but bottom line…
yaaawwwnnn
Seriously, you attack other people right out of the chute and then whine when they fight back? And then you claim they started it?
And typically, you totally ignore all valid statements and data and like an animal backed into a corner hiss and spit ineffectively.
LOL… typical troll… typical flamer… and just plain lame. Honestly, I don’t think you have made one valid, documentable point in this entire thread. All you’ve done is spout opinion (nothing wrong with that) with immediate invectives (definitely something wrong with that). In short, you’re shouting for everyone to hear, “HERE’S MY OPINION, I ALREADY KNOW I’M ON SHAKY GROUND, SO YOU ALL ARE MORONS!”
Message heard, lady.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Wayfinder In the first response to me, before I had ever even spoken to you, you said this of my opinion: “Extremely unsympathetic, disrespectful and self-centered attitude set aside, the statement is a lie.”
If a troll is one to attack others and play innocent, as you claim, then you are the perfect example of that.
Message heard, prick.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Wayfinder “In the first response to me, before I had ever even spoken to you, you said this of my opinion: “Extremely unsympathetic, disrespectful and self-centered attitude set aside, the statement is a lie.”
Fact, Percephone: Your first post to users here, before mine (nya nya) was to call everyone here who disagreed with you “whiners” and “children”… very typical troll attitude. And that attitude has continued repeatedly throughout this post.
I meant just think about it will you? I don’t think I would call you out on self-centered attitude and lying… if that wasn’t exactly what you’d already done. Yes? I mean what, I just pick on random people to slam for no good reason? Get real. Your attitude here is trollish and typical of such… now you’re blaming your targets. Grow up.
So twist and bend the truth all you like, the posts are there for everyone to see. You don’t want to be called a troll, arrogant and a liar… then cease such activities. If you choose to continue in that course, then stop whining when someone labels you for what you are. If you can’t stand the heat… LOL
Flamers are always so lame. They start the fight, then go crying when someone punches them in the nose.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
That said, btw, I’m done with you. Mouth all you want, when a thread gets to this status, it’s no longer worth my time. The trouble with trolls is.. you chop off their head, they just grow one back. And the regrown one learns nothing from the original experience.
So shout and stop and tantrum and call names all you want Percephone… tree falling in the forest and all that. Your posts are without sense or reason; done dealing with such nonsense.
Tux
Jun 1st, 2010
But Perse, you are a troll. Even if you don’t realise it.
And I can’t help but to LMFAO at your use of prick. I remember back in the late seventies/early eighties it was a fashionable insult. Now it is more of a chuckle moment, which stops people and makes them ask if they really read it right.
I give you Tux’s monthly award for comical trollduggery!
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Wayfinder Call people who challenge your silly claims trolls all you want. It’s not going to refute a single one of their arguments.
You started the name calling. And then you wanted to play innocent. In the end, the only argument you offered to support the claim that you’re a helpless victim of an oppressive government over which you have no option to leave is a bunch of criticism of Linden Labs, which I never questioned.
IntLibber Brautigan
Jun 1st, 2010
Persephone Bolero,
“Then try and tell me with a straight face that I could immigrate to France from America as easily as logging off SL. Seriously. You expect anyone to buy that silly statement?”
There is a vast distinction between logging off for the day, and abandoning ones entire investment over years of hard work, capital, and value built. For most people, maybe, it really doesn’t matter that much, because they never put anything into SL but some spare time. For someone like me, my company was worth a quarter million dollars, and had spent over a half million with LL over the years. Thats not an investment one can just walk away from.
Others have other sorts of investments in SL, emotional, personal, social. I’ve employed handicapped people who in real life could only move a few fingers, but SL made them feel like whole people where they could be productive, hard working individuals. Turning their second life into a life of misery under a tyrannical governance is especially cruel and inhumane.
That you refuse to acknowledge that makes you an LL fanboi apologist troll.
@darkfoxx:
You are clearly and utterly lying here, as the documents from the Bragg trial clearly show. When I joined in 2006 LL clearly stated that they respected the property rights of users, this was the basis behind which Bragg was able to force LL to settle and compensate him for the sims they stole from him.
Judge Joker
Jun 1st, 2010
99% of these arguments are puerile bullshit, which try to mask a defense for Plexus supporters, stating tripe like if you don’t like it go somewhere else, well bullshit your argument is complete and utter bullshit.
Wake up call! Linden Labs has a monopoly due to it being a semi-stable service, and having new residents joining periodically, they have the brand and the services that attract residents to possibly stay and own your friend network though the now Facebook data mine clone Avatars United.
Without opening up the chat mechanism and becoming some kind of node other grids can use for chat and groups which fail to live up to basic standards, Linden Labs will maintain that monopoly on everything social in Second Life, and strangle you until you have no money or will left to support your second life habit.
And like it or not they have our money because we need a stable service, we pay for the service and as customers by LAW we’re entitled to complain about that service when it does not meet expectations or when it’s not meeting what was advertised.
So don’t be coming here spouting bullshit that we’re not entitled to complain about this service and have to put up and shut up, or GTFO because we’re here and we unfortunately have to stay here until another service arrives that’s stable.
I hoped it was Blue Mars but it didn’t impress me when I logged in beta.
Go look up false advertising, general rule of thumb is if it’s a corporation 90% of it is always false advertising, they just don’t want to get caught doing it and if enough people complain and are not complacent then government agency’s that deal with such trade will intervene and make sure the corporation follows the regulations or gets heavily fined.
How they act is complete and utter bullshit, it’s not only customers who are on the end of what ever shit stick they wish to thrust up peoples asses, the good staff have to deal with it as well.
Plexus was corrupted by Kalels delusions and because he could not do his job, and should have been removed the moment he allowed it to become personal.
Which put every new and old customer in the firing line because Kalel magnified and amplified the situation in order to manipulate himself to either Linden status or his group to admin status.
If he cared about residents he would have done it on the quiet with no exposure and not organ pressing himself some propaganda that fueled the situation, because the other side on some occasions can’t get the truth out if they where not involved and become enraged which leads to a cycle of abuse.
And the whole bullshit with Kalel wanting to take over furnations sandboxes, what kind of a complete retard Linden has access to some database that’s totally against the rules, and laws but don’t notice under the training category Kales devious evil plans to take over another residents sandbox sim which he has not payed for and not even donated or should have anything to do with.
And where is GLE? and why did GLE want to take hits for that fucking coward Kalel, who hides behind myths and Lindens who has the balls to stand up when he thinks its right, but when someone has a differing opinion he hides behind other people like some punk ass bitch.
If this was prison rules he would have lost all credibility, look totally weak for sending such a baby ass punk like GLE to do his dirty work and be flamed for Kalels actions.
Lead by example and at least have some god dam integrity for your actions Kalel & Plexus.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
“That you refuse to acknowledge that makes you an LL fanboi apologist troll.”
Good thing you guys don’t resort to name calling. That would, of course, raise a lot of questions about the validity of your arguments. Just ask Wayfinder. He’ll tell you all about it. Unless you question him. Then you’re just a name-calling troll. Isn’t that right, Wayfinder?
Senban Babii
Jun 1st, 2010
@Pissoffany Boulangerie
You really do put the lame into flame, don’t you?
There’s nothing else I can add to the discussion that Tux, Wayfinder and Intlibber haven’t already said and better than I would have done. That doesn’t mean they’ve “won” any more than it means you’ve “lost”. But their arguments are far more compelling and reasonable than your own to date. Perhaps it’s worth reassessing your own position in light of their arguments? It can be a sign of strength to recognise when one’s own position is based on false premises and to reassess.
Also, I did have to laugh at “prick”. Do people even say that anymore? 8D
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Senban “But their arguments are far more compelling and reasonable than your own to date. ”
Yes, to those who already agree with them.
And yes, people who aren’t in their 20s still say “prick.”
It's Unfixable
Jun 1st, 2010
@Judge Brautigan: Still bawwing about the JLU and your poor treatment at the hands of the Lindens, I see. Pro-tip: nobody cares. Also, when you make up utter bullshit and start spreading it around, all the happens is your hands smell like fertilizer. Nobody listens to anybody who’s so obviously self-delusional and butthurt.
IntLibber Brautigan
Jun 1st, 2010
Persephone:
“And yes, people who aren’t in their 20s still say “prick.””
Nah, thats only for guys who have one. Since you are a trap, the proper referent for you is ‘douchebag’.
From the urbandictionary.com definition: “An individual who has an over-inflated sense of self worth, compounded by a low level of intellegence, behaving ridiculously in front of colleagues with no sense of how moronic he appears.”
IntLibber Brautigan
Jun 1st, 2010
@Unfixable: Still tilting at windmills I see? See, Darkfoxx/Unfixable/Angel, when one accuses one of being an alt of another, one should have some capacity to discern common writing patterns, as well as the use of facts and phrases, and evidence from other websites (as I did with you, showing darkfoxx to be an alt of angel, after someone else outed unfixable as darkfoxx). The desperation is growing, isn’t it Darkbaww?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@IntLibber
“Nah, thats only for guys who have one. Since you are a trap, the proper referent for you is ‘douchebag’.”
Wow, another “compelling” and “reasonable” argument from the hopelessly oppressed by Linden gang.
You’re right, Wayfinder. I’m just a name-calling troll. You guys are so above that.
It's Unfixable
Jun 1st, 2010
The speed with which you replied, Intlibber, proves it’s you.
It's Unfixable
Jun 1st, 2010
And talk about tilting at windmills! BWA_HA_HA!!
IntLibber Brautigan
Jun 1st, 2010
It’s Unfixable
“The speed with which you replied, Intlibber, proves it’s you.”
Um, no, retard, I replied to you because I spotted your comment showing up as soon as I submitted my prior one. Gah, typical illogical furry.
Tux
Jun 1st, 2010
“The speed with which you replied, Intlibber, proves it’s you.”
Whoa, excellent deduction there Sherlock. What’s next? Despite the rain I felt moisture from your Sylvester like dribbling comment ‘I thawt I thaw an IntLibber . . . I did, I did thwee an IntLibber!’
/me wipes chin
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Percephone: “Then you’re just a name-calling troll. Isn’t that right, Wayfinder?”
Yeah, that’s pretty much right Perce. You’re a name-calling troll.
Let’s examine the facts instead of just spouting opinion and labels, shall we?
Percephone: “you whiners are irrelevant to the rest of us.”
That was way before I said a word to you, Perce. That’s not only condescending and offensive… it’s blatantly trolliing (not to mention arrogant beyond belief). It’s also self-contradictory; if the comments here were “irrelevant” to you, you would not have felt compelled to respond in such an offensive and adversarial manner. You’d have just ignored it.
Side point: “to the rest of us”. What “rest of us”. By your own words you seem to be pretty much alone here in your defense of Linden Lab. You’re certainly alone in the “everyone else is losers” attitude.
Percephone: “Children… morons… jackasses… prick…”
Yes Perce, you are a name-calling troll. You’re bringing nothing to the table but personal opinion and attitude, you’ve blatantly ignored all data and facts pertinent to the issue, and have presented ZERO data and facts of your own. In short, your posts have been basically ranting, blathering and attacking other users. Despite that fact that numerous people here have put you in your place, you’ve focused on one single individual and tried to present me as the vandal here– which also is typically trollish mode of operation.
Now, whether you ARE a troll or not, or whether you simply employ trollish activities, may be a fine point. That fine point is defined by whether you clean up your act or continue to behave in such an antisocial, ill-mannered way.
I think all of us can pretty much predict what the answer to that one is going to be. So prove us wrong. Dare ya.
Wayfinder
Jun 1st, 2010
@Judge Joker: “Wake up call! Linden Labs has a monopoly due to it being a semi-stable service, and having new residents joining periodically,”
I think that’s a fairly accurate summation, yeah. And I believe overall you’ve summed up (with some accuracy at least) the overall condition of LL and SL.
I do disagree on a couple points, for discussion. One is the statement above that new residents are joining periodically. Yes, true. But at the same time, it seems about an equal number of residents are leaving. We know this because the concurrency and overall residency figures have remained pretty much flat-line over the past two years.
From what I have heard from reliable sources, the average residency of SL is approximately 1 year (I’m sure those far better at statistics and math than I am arrived at that fact). So it seems to be a situation of “sucker in new users, they wise up after a year or so, they leave”… and SL fails to grow.
SL is currently profitable and thriving… but then, so is a parasite just before it kills off the host. Which brings us to the second point: that they’re a monopoly and will likely remain such because of their closed architecture.
Possibly, and I won’t deny that possibility. I do agree with you that Blue Mars is a fairly lame platform. I’m not impressed at all… and I was hoping to be impressed.
However, OpenSim is another thing. Mind you, not OpenSim itself, because it’s pretty much limping along with two crippled feet. But there are individual companies such as Inworldz who have started with the OpenSim code and applied pro-level development, creating their own grids. There are several grids doing that right now. Whereas OpenSim is stagnant, Inworldz and others are progressing rapidly. They are growing too; Inworldz alone added some 167 sims in just the last 30 days. That is fairly impressive growth for a start-up grid. What’s more, people who visit there, who know how things work and know what to expect, are generally impressed by what they see. I was impressed… and I’m not easy to impress.
So I think that Linden Lab, while indeed has been a monopoly as you state, and may even hold on to that for a few months more, is already starting to have that status slip through their fingers. At my last count, Linden Lab is already losing several hundred thousand dollars a month to competition (possibly even close to a million a month; it’s hard to tell). I know as an absolute fact, no doubt at all, they’re losing $380,000 a month (that’s in hard-core, bottom-line, conservative figures).
So I believe Linden Lab’s days are numbered. At this point there are so many things that can kill them I don’t have enough fingers to count. Major lawsuit that drives them into bankruptcy, criminal charges that winds up with some principles being jailed for fraud, people abandoning the platform for greener pastures, major FAIL coding that suddenly collapses on them and destroys the grid, management that drives the company into the ground and bails on their golden parachutes… this is a company with multiple diseases, any one of which could kill them.
My negativity toward Linden Lab isn’t pessimistic (or as one person claims, propaganda). It’s based on evaluation of historical performance and market trends. I agree with you there is always the possibility Linden Lab could pull a rabbit out of a hat and limp along for some time longer (if I understand your post correctly)… but I think the odds of that happening are very slim. The answer to that will only be known with the passing of time.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2010
@Wayfinder “That fine point is defined by whether you clean up your act or continue to behave in such an antisocial, ill-mannered way. ”
You can’t even spell my name right — and you never have — and you’re suggesting I clean up my behavior?
Trolls misspell people’s names intentionally. It’s rude and obnoxious. And when you treat me with respect, I will treat you with respect. Until then, you’re just a sad little prick.
And I stand by my convictions. You are nothing more than a dissatisfied customer who wants to grossly mischaracterize your situation to greatly inflate the importance of your complaints. You continue to pretend you’re on a grand crusade against evil, and I think you do this to stroke your own ego.
Furthermore, you rely on paranoid conspiracy theories, which makes you completely ineffective at creating positive change. Such behavior just generates hostilities between customer and service provider, which undermines effective communication and approaches to problem solving.
And so I love telling jackasses like you that I’m generally content with SL. And until a competitor offers something comparable or better, I’m going to continue happily communicating with Linden Labs to improve their service. And they’ll be far more likely to listen to me that a ranting, insincere malcontent like you.
Now, call me a troll again. I can take it.
Wayfinder
Jun 2nd, 2010
@Perce: “You can’t even spell my name right — and you never have — and you’re suggesting I clean up my behavior? Trolls misspell people’s names intentionally. ”
Oh you have got to be joking. Woman, you are certifiable. Total nutjob.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 2nd, 2010
“Yes, it is. Because Linden Labs is doing a pretty good job on a lot of things that make it worth staying. Again, not saying you can’t complain, nor commenting on the validity of those complaints. I’m just putting things in perspective.”
Linden Labs doesn’t make SL worth staying in, they’re what makes it run. Content creators make it more worth staying in, yet you make it sound like it’s all LL. LL runs SL. But they don’t make everything that SL contains.
Also, the manner in which this is said is like putting words in my mouth, so to speak. You’re adding your opinion to the end of what I said as if that’s what I meant. Whetehr or not that was intentional, it kinda does look like it.
“Now tell me this. Kiddoh said he was unconvinced by my arguments. I said I felt the same of his. How is that narrow minded? If I am narrow minded in saying that I feel the same way Kiddoh does, then you must believe he’s narrow minded too.”
What I meant was you came in, started shooting every opinion down with your logic. You call it defending yourself, even though you did come in and land the first blow, and then when we give our opinions on the subject refuting it keep swooping some bits aside. For example:
“Excellent! Good for them. That’s what you should do if you’re unhappy with LL’s products. Why doesn’t Wayfinder if he’s so unhappy? And how is his choice to stay victimizing him? That’s the question that I’m raising.”
That’s basically, in a manner, stating that I should either enjoy the way LL does things or gtfo. No matter how much you may try to refute this now, that is the way you said it yesterday.
“This has nothing to do with my opinion being narrow minded or that I’m “forcing” my opinion on others. It’s just like how Danziel criticizes my name calling of Wayfinder but is entirely oblivious of the very rude things Wayfinder said to me before I ever took that tone with him. It’s not about my name calling. It’s about me expressing unpopular opinions.”
Again, what I am saying is not only are you being a voice of dissent, you’re almost completely disragarding any view by the looks of it that doesn’t immediately fit yours. For example, you started with Kiddoh before Kiddoh even began refuting what you were saying.
“Fact is, you disagree with me. And any opinion that disagrees with you, you’ll find narrow minded.”
Incorrect, read the rest.
“That’s why Kiddoh can tell me that I’m unconvincing, but when I say that I feel the same of him, you claim I’m attacking people. Isn’t that interesting?”
Well, it all depends on the argument put forth by the parties, and that aside I meant you’re nitpicking at everything everyone is saying. Furthermore, you can hold your opinions and I can hold mine. I agree more with those of others here than yours, whereas you disagree with every opinion here that doesn’t fit your own. I can poke holes in the opinions of otehrs here that I agree with, but the only point that would be for is drama. I’m trying to intelligently refute this.
“I’m sorry if you feel attacked in this message, but disagreeing with you and defending my case is NOT an attack.”
lol, I feel attacked in no way, honestly.