The Artemis Fate Interview: Justice League is Unnecessary and Overzealous

by Alphaville Herald on 18/09/11 at 8:34 pm

Longtime SL resident asks Linden Lab for statement on anti-griefer groups' limits

by Robble Rubble

[In Robble Rubble's exclusive interview with Artemis Fate, Ms. Fate - a respected class-of-2003 resident - points out that the Justice League Unlimited and similar anti-griefer vigilante groups are superfluous and attract exactly the sort of behaviors they claim to fight. She goes on to ask Linden Lab for a statement on exactly what is fair game for the vigilante groups and what should be off limits. - the Editrix]

Artemis Fate

Robble Rubble: So you've been on the grid a long time, can I ask what brought you to Second Life?
Artemis Fate: I used to be on Active worlds a little bit, I had came across it in the summer of 2003, but it was pretty rough then and I looked over it. Decided to try it in October of the same year and ended up getting really into it. Been around ever since.

Robble Rubble: Very nice, that's a long history on the grid. Can you give some insight into it? What sort of things do you spend time doing? What projects do you work on? What's your biggest accomplishments or even failures? Do you like long walks on the beach?
Artemis Fate: Insight into the history of the grid? It's changed rapidly while at the same time staying much the same. I used to be a builder, but I haven't done much in a while, due to moving from college into the 9-5 work world. My main project has been Nexus Prime, which has been on hold for a while, but there's some stuff in the works now that mesh is around. And sure, why not.

Robble Rubble: So it's safe to assume you are familiar with the recent controversy about the Justice League Unlimited?
Artemis Fate: And the two before that.

Artemis 3
Artemis Fate believes the JLU has violated the spirit of the ToS

Robble Rubble: Let's not get too ahead of ourselves, can you tell me about your first awareness of the JLU? How did you hear about these people?
Artemis Fate: One of them came into Nexus Prime on a call, I'm not sure if someone had a communicator or if they were just patrolling. Nikola Shirakawa, who was a Green Lantern at the time.

Robble Rubble: Was this a positive or negative experience for you?
Artemis Fate: Largely negative, I didn't need an outside group using shields and other scripted tools to handle attacks when I could use sim tools. I ended up having to force her out of the sim since she was surprised that I wouldn't want their help. Afterwards Kalel Venkman IMed me saying much of the same and pointing out rather absurdly that the sim would be unprotected without their help. I asked them to not come around here, and apparently they did add Nexus Prime to their list of sims "not to patrol".

Robble Rubble: What sort of words would you use to describe the Justice League Unlimited and their practices?
Artemis Fate: I'd describe the Justice League itself as unnecessary, and their practices as overzealous.

Robble Rubble: That's a lot less four letter words than I would use.

Robble Rubble: Were there any other interactions with the JLU in Nexis Prime?
Artemis Fate: I'm sure they're generally good people on their own, and that they have good intentions, but together they're going overboard.
Artemis Fate: After that first one I never heard about them in Nexus Prime again, so I'm assuming they kept to their word.

Robble Rubble: What is it that caused you to to get involved in the recent discussions about the Justice League Unlimited on the SLUniverse and Second Citizen MKII boards?
Artemis Fate: The presence of a wiki had been something that was rumored about them the first I heard about them, it was interesting to see proof of it after the first leak, and how it evolved after every leak after that.

Robble Rubble: Have you ever felt you were a target of the JLU? Have you been contacted in world by any of the JLU members since the recent public backlash over the latest round of brainiac wiki leaks?
Artemis Fate: If I ever was, I was never aware of it. They don't have an article for me as far as I know, only a few mentions here and there.

Robble Rubble: What do you think will be accomplished by bringing this issue to the public?
Artemis Fate: I simply would want LL to make an official statement regarding the operation of anti-griefer groups in SL, what they can do, what they can't do.

Robble Rubble: I see that you have Greenlantern Excelsior to task on numerous occasions, what is your opinion on GLE's quality of damage control?
Artemis Fate: Poor.

Robble Rubble: heh

Robble Rubble: Do you think GLE's apologies are credible or are nothing more than that of an apology due to being caught, similar to what happened when Zenmondo was caught in the thread?
Artemis Fate: I don't think I've seen GLE apologize for anything.

Robble Rubble: He does seem adept at wiggling out of that.
Artemis Fate: At most, I've seen him say he regretted the comment regarding sending Nebula a threatening e-mail. [:0]

Robble Rubble: Do you have any questions you have or would have asked the JLU that remain unanswered, and if so would you care to share them with me? Any thoughts on why Kalel has refused to respond to most accusations himself?
Artemis Fate: The most obvious one would be why some of this information is necessary, and why measures haven't been taken to review and verify information put in the wiki for accuracy and necessity.
Artemis Fate: As for Kalel, I don't know. I haven't talked to him much outside of that one contact so many years ago, he seems paranoid and used to being in control now. I imagine it's a bit like Joseph McCarthy, who GLE seems to like so much, who was afraid to bring Charlie Chaplin to stand, knowing he'd lampoon him, so he revoked his right to re-enter the US when he was out of the country.
Artemis Fate: And if there's one thing serious men like that can't stand, it's being made fun of.

Robble Rubble: He does get his tights in a bunch over the smallest things.
Artemis Fate: That does seem to be the case.

Robble Rubble: So do you think the Justice League Unlimited have done anything to violate the Second Life terms of service or the community standards? Because at the end of the day, while people are screaming about ethical dilemnas, legal threats, letters to daytime television hosts and FBI investigations, do you think there is even a chance of making Linden Lab take action?
Artemis Fate: In terms of the letter of the ToS? I'm not sure. In terms of the spirit? Definitely. As per whether Linden Lab would take action, keep in mind that alt-detection and IP grabbing were not necessarily against the ToS until they were made so due to the community outrage.

Robble Rubble: Do you think that JLU members linking to their KryptonRadio blog while simultaniously ARing and getting people removed from search for posting links to blogs critical of them demonstrates any sort of bias that the Lab has in their favor?
Artemis Fate: No, I don't think so. From the evidence I've seen, they once were able to sway more than a few lindens to their cause, but that day seems to have passed, now they talk about in their meetings that none of the Lindens will pay attention to them.

Robble Rubble: In the SLU thread you were talking about an experiment with an alt, Night Sun, could you tell me about that?
Artemis Fate: That was around the same time as the last leak. People were claiming that the JLU was ARing them for being critical of the group. I decided to test out the theory myself using an old alt I had made but never used. I made a sign that was critical of the JLU but not violating any part of the ToS. I actually had a discussion with GLE through the alt and he agreed that it wasn't against the ToS (this didn't stop him from ARing it however). Then I basically sat around and waited to see what would happen.

Robble Rubble: What ended up happening?
Artemis Fate: I got suspended for disclosure. I decided to try again, this time changing the sign from a link to the leaked wiki to a Herald article chosen for no disclosing material. I got suspended again for Disclosure after that. So I removed links to anything in general, and left just the sign. I was suspended for defamation at that point.

Artemis 2
Artemis Fate: "Linden Lab has been a mystery in their actions"

Robble Rubble: So what are your thoughts on JLU members linking their KryptonRadio blog in world, a blog that often discloses the RL names of their critics and is full of articles that seem to be written with the intention of grandstanding and defaming their critics?
Artemis Fate: Well, the disclosure suspensions were referenced to linking to the wiki. I think if LL is doing suspensions for material hosted outside of SL, that's a pretty grey area. I don't think people should be suspended for what they say outside of SL, but at the same time I can understand the problems with having a link to a site in world that's full of readily available disclosing information. All in all, I think that the Linden who suspended for it was wrong, not that it was wrong to link that site in world.

Robble Rubble: Do you think that the recent calls of people to contact outside intervention (FBI, Scotland Yard, Ellen lol) will have any effect without Linden Lab taking direct action?
Artemis Fate: I think any outside authority besides Linden Lab would and should disregard it entirely. On the scale of utter travesties of justice that require their attention, this is extremely low ranking (Even for Ellen).

Robble Rubble: Do you have any recomendations on how people can get Linden Lab to take action?
Artemis Fate: I really don't, in all this time Linden Lab has been a mystery in their actions. Sometimes they let things slide, and other times they crack down hard. I do think, however, that they are very aware of this, and have probably already thought out what actions they might or might not take and how it would effect the community and their ToS.

Robble Rubble: What do you think about the fact that a common red herring to many of the criticisms that are posed to the JLU are that they come from people they consider to be "griefers"? And in that light if the fact that many former members of Woodbury, W-hat or members of The Wrong Hands, openly admit to many of the wrongs they have done in the past, do you think that those people's criticisms of the behavior of the Justice League Unlimited should be discarded simply because they were or are admitted griefers?
Artemis Fate: I think no one's point should be disregarded because of their background, if they can make a good point.

Robble Rubble: Some argue that the behavior of the JLU actually creates more griefers on the grid than they prevent due to the collateral damage of innocents being considered guilty by association, getting banned, then returning to the grid as griefers when they previously would not have done so had it not been for the JLU action. What do you think of this theory?
Artemis Fate: I think the JLU make for amusing targets for griefers, which in itself keeps ones around who would otherwise get bored. I know that a lot of the people in Woodbury and otherwise didn't really grief either, but just were involved in a group that was known for it, and they got caught up in a ban for that too. I have no idea if that kind of collateral damage theory is true, but it sounds reasonable.

Robble Rubble: Artemis, I thank you for your time, but before you go. What are your predictions about how this will ultimately end?
Artemis Fate: I honestly couldn't say, during the Emerald fiasco, I was thinking LL would let it slide again, like they had so many times before. Instead they cracked down on the viewer hard and took it apart in a matter of a week or two. For this, I don't know. I'm hoping at the very least they'll make a statement regarding it.

208 Responses to “The Artemis Fate Interview: Justice League is Unnecessary and Overzealous”

  1. Tux

    Sep 18th, 2011

    Thanks Artemis, your honesty is muchly appreciated. And Robble, well done. But this:

    Robble Rubble: He does get his tights in a bunch over the smallest things.
    Artemis Fate: That does seem to be the case.

    I did chuckle!

  2. LOL

    Sep 18th, 2011

    When is Linden lab going to wake the fuck up and deal with the JLU asshats

  3. Tum

    Sep 18th, 2011

    Hey, Mr Cameraman…her eyes are up THERE!

  4. IntLibber Brautigan

    Sep 18th, 2011

    Good, another FICish oldby. Vindicated, again. Tho, it would be interesting to hear if Ms Fate appealed her bans and what the result was or would be…. perhaps a followup story?

  5. Uccello

    Sep 18th, 2011

    To show how little I care, let me ask an unrelated question: Why did the article need so many poorly lit photos?

  6. Imnotgoing Sideways

    Sep 18th, 2011

    Hey, can someone ask Artemis where she got that skin? I got some friends that LOVE doll joints. =^-^=

  7. Astolat Dufaux

    Sep 18th, 2011

    If not for the “stakeholders” in SL — the landowners, the merchants, the “oldbies” — speaking out against the JLU’s privacy invading tactics, it’s very easy to be dismissive of this issue and write it off as “just griefers” getting what they deserve.

    That people who have never been banned/wrongly banned or committed ANY kind of wrongdoing on the grid, are becoming targets of the JLU simply for expressing a dissenting opinion, is an extremely disturbing development.

    Regardless of your reputation on the grid, every resident in SL should be VERY concerned that a user group that is NOT vetted by LL to “police” the grid, is collecting private information on SL residents.

    That’s NOT the JLU’s job, that’s the job of Linden Lab. End of story.

  8. Astolat Dufaux

    Sep 18th, 2011

    Let me clarify — the JLU is NOT a company that provides a service, like Linden Lab or Google — as users we agree to the TOS of SL or Gmail before we can use it. We understand that Linden Lab and Google collect information, because they specifically mention that in their TOS.

    The JLU is not a corporation, nor do they have a TOS — they are SL residents with a user group, just like the rest of us.

    Nor are they law enforcement, or private detectives, or journalists, or prospective employers. They have NO legitimate reason to be collecting information on *anyone* in SL or RL — they are simply a user group within a service, who agreed to the same TOS the rest of us did when we registered.

  9. LOL

    Sep 19th, 2011


    You may not care about your Real life information being collected by the JLU, however I bet all the men who visit Isle of Lesbos would care!

    Dare to think about what your traffic would look like if all the digital crossdressers were pulled out of the LESBOS closet while on your sim!

  10. Nelson Jenkins

    Sep 19th, 2011

    respected class-of-2003 resident

    You’re joking, right?

  11. Edna

    Sep 19th, 2011

    No nude shots? What the hell kind of post 6 girl is this?

  12. GG3

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Once again SL shows its mockery of privacy protection for it’s consumers.

    Vigilant groups are allowed to run hay-wire on a platform that is “suppose” to be open-minded in culture and media enrichment development.

    One pattern after another, it is very clear these “vigilant” groups cannot handle their responsibilities, nor should they, on a customer scale. As long as these patrol groups exist, controversy will ensue and there will always be a group or leader who thinks they are above real-life laws.

    It is not the place of other customers to be data-mining/collecting information on other customers, unless specifically that customer has agreed to a TOS in which they are allowed to see, and review. These are not official companies that are required to provide information to their customers by laws. These are 3rd party user groups generated in second-life. Bear in mind the JLU have keept their wiki a secret between their members all this time expect for the leaks by whistleblowers, and those who have asked in the past and current have been promptly denied or ignored of their personal information being listed in these wiki’s. That includes RL names, phones, adresses, pictures, and medical information, at all the access of random strangers in the SL platform.

    It’s a shame some think these groups should be simply “slapped on the wrist” and allowed to continue their merry-way of law-breaking offenses. The JLU and similar groups need to be dealt with the same TOS everyone deals with when they sign up for the service, especially when past-relations ended up with JLU leaders scheming with former LL employees to gain advantages over other customers.

    It’s called ban.

  13. hobo kelly

    Sep 19th, 2011

    here kitty kitty kitty, here Fernando… I wonder where that crazy cat has gotten off to now…

  14. GreenLantern Excelsior

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Good interview! Artemis’s respectful discussion style on the Second Citizen board is a model for everyone to follow.

    Anyone who is interested in hearing Kalel’s comments on these issues can read this article:

    There is a comment area at the bottom of the article where you can join the discussion.

  15. Astolat Dufaux

    Sep 19th, 2011

    GLE, I and a number of other people have tried to comment on that post — but my *respectful* disagreement apparently is not welcome there.

    Also? The content of that article changes from day to day, depending on what lie that’s published there has been disproved. — or discovering one of your minions is a known copybotter. Oops.

    I find it laughable the JLU tries to hide behind the Krypton Radio site and claim that makes you “journalists.” The very manner in which you repeatedly revise articles published there (without publishing notice that there have been corrections or clarifications), and the fact you selectively publish comments, destroys that claim.

  16. Nelson Jenkins

    Sep 19th, 2011

    @ GreenLantern Excelsior

    I posted a comment asking about the legality of collecting personal data on the wiki for the purposes of unwanted contact or malice (as I have repeatedly noted is illegal according to the California Penal Code) and pointing out that just because the “bad guys” do it and don’t get caught, doesn’t mean it’s not illegal. It has not been cleared for about a week or two.

    So, no, you’re full of shit, as always.


    Sep 19th, 2011

    @ GreenLantern Excelsior

    Once again you are inviting comments onto Krypton Radio. And yet all it took for me to get banned from commenting there was to shift from “polite and neutral” to “polite, neutral, and questioning”. Did I say something that would be too embarrassing to publish? Or is it that there was some argument that was too difficult to refute?

  18. Robble Rubble

    Sep 19th, 2011

    I think the Krapton Radio article would be more effective if you guys weren’t constantly re-writing it.

    Have fun with your Baghdad Bob roleplay on SCII.



    Do it yourself fatty, you ain’t the boss of me.

  19. virgil jekins

    Sep 19th, 2011

    sorry greenie, you actually looked like a faggot on scMII

  20. Senban Babii

    Sep 19th, 2011

    @Robble Rubble
    “I think the Krapton Radio article would be more effective if you guys weren’t constantly re-writing it.”

    This is the bit I don’t get here. When a subject is a hot potato like this one, are these people really so stupid to think that no one pays attention to the things they write, that no one keeps track of the changes they make to their stories? It really is like Nineteen Eighty Four. They think that every time they write a new truth, it has suddenly always been the truth. But like Winston, we have the pieces of paper in our hands that prove the JLU have lied and continue to lie. They call themselves the JLU but they act more like the Ministry of Truth. And any comments that would be embarrassing to answer are simply deposited in the memory hole.

  21. Senban Babii

    Sep 19th, 2011

    And doesn’t it make you wonder if every day, the Party…sorry, the JLU, holds a Two Minute Hate where all members must watch Woodbury You Tube videos and express their hatred for Tizzers?

  22. GG3

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Let’s see.

    Krypton Radio Articles get changed per day/every hour?

    Only allows one-sided comments?

    What a mockery of journalism. It’s as creditable as pig dirt.

  23. Tux

    Sep 19th, 2011


    Why doesn’t Kalel come comment on this article? Because he can’t edit it. God forbid he types another death threat or something.

    And stop recommend people comment on KR, we all know you alter the articles daily, we know you fail to publish non pro commenting, we know you IP ban any who question your actions, and we know you collect the IP, name and email address of every person who comments.

    Even now you still try to harvest data. Because a questioning comment indicates a griefer right?

    Seriously, try not changing articles and allow all comments, see how long it takes for the true feelings for the JLU to come out.

    Kalel’s bubble has burst, we are just watching him flounder until he hits the ground!

  24. Bunjie

    Sep 19th, 2011


    If your commenting on this news blog, you and I know fairly well a ban is meaningless to solve the issue.

    They just change their mac address/ip and other information sent to Linden Lab at Login and they get back in, it’s the same issue my ISP has been fighting to keep people from installing firmware on their modem and using other peoples sniffed mac address etc to get back online with what ever speed was assigned to that mac address, and some other bullshit to do with files but point is a ban solves nothing it’s a temporary punishment, and the JLU’s first ban will have repercussions for us all if you look at what WU turned into because of it.

    They’re a group who are willing to cross the line, the tos and other real world laws so do you really think giving them a ban will do anything but wound them temporally before they come back without any oversight at all? it’s better to have your eye on a long plan than one that only forces Linden Lab to deal with it on a day to day basis of the typical removal of accounts that “others” ar for being in-world.

    Now for a group who loves to have it’s “name”, “brand” and other such symbols it would be a big blow but I’d much rather Linden Lab renamed their group to something ridiculous like another group was forced renamed due to having fag in the name as “the good guys” or something of similar wording but more ridiculous for the JLU.

    Perhaps a good punishment would be to let the community at large choose their new groups name, and put in place some system that they can never leave that group and it will always be public in their profile. And anyone caught as their alt by Linden Lab doing spying or other such nasty things will be auto locked into that group so everyone can see what a bunch of cunts they are.

    I’d so like Linden Lab to stop them from closing the account so it’s a permanent reminder they can’t ever remove from search on every account they’re caught abusing.

    There are other ways to govern than the traditional ban, of course I’m well aware the corn field became some place people wanted to be for the reverse status, but not letting them hide things anymore would be a start so we can see Linden Lab is acting on AR’s but not overall telling us why and only showing us by forcing them to stay in that group.

    And as it racks up accounts they’ll be put off doing it anymore or it will look terrible on them and will have the right effect to stop anyone wanting to use their PZ, scripts or 911 huds.

    I’m sure the AH readers could come up with some wacky and ridiculous ideas that is as far a punishment as being put in stocks an having rotten vegetables thrown at them because anything else would just fuel this into an underground war that only gets shown when it rips apart residents inSL lives and Prokofy goes off on another rank.

  25. Senban Babii

    Sep 19th, 2011

    “I’m sure the AH readers could come up with some wacky and ridiculous ideas that is as far a punishment as being put in stocks an having rotten vegetables thrown at them”

    In the old days criminals would be branded or given facial tattoos, right? So the Lindens could hard wire one of those evil titler things into their avatars. They’d never be able to remove them (or conceal them) and everyone could spend the rest of eternity doling out the punishment of the community.

  26. Debi Dastardly

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Careful Senban, the JLU may abduct you to the Ministry of Love for reeducation.

  27. fararden

    Sep 19th, 2011


    Try the Doll Box mall

  28. Senban Babii

    Sep 19th, 2011

    “Careful Senban, the JLU may abduct you to the Ministry of Love for reeducation.”

    That’s okay, I’ve always wanted to have my face chewed right off by a wire cage thing full of rats.

    When you find me sitting in a corner somewhere smiling and loving the JLU with all my heart, you’ll know they somehow got to me. Until then….

  29. Dontspill McGinnis

    Sep 19th, 2011

    @ GLE

    “Anyone who is interested in hearing Kalel’s comments on these issues can read this article:
    There is a comment area at the bottom of the article where you can join the discussion.”

    You know, for a minute there, I thought you were being serious!
    It’s good to see you still maintain your sense of humour even as your reputation, and the reputation of the JLU plunge the depths.

    Tux is right about Kalel, It is long past time he came out to face the masses. After all, there are only a handful of noisy detractors to the JLU’s stalking and data mining practices according to your website.
    But then Krypton Radio has never been big on truth has it.

    Kalel’s attitude brings Nero, the Roman Emperor to mind. I’m almost certain he is a big fiddler too.

  30. Paul

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Ok, so against my better judgement I went and had a look at “Krypton Rado” for the first time. Clearly, these people have way too much time on their hands. I also find it telling that when pressed about the “PD”‘s admitted IP harvesting efforts, they defend it by saying that it was not against the TOS at the time. You need a rule to tell you that it is wrong to collect IP addresses from a video game that you do not own? Clearly, we are better off without the JLU, the PD and their vigilante ways.

    On the other hand, I do have some honest questions here:

    1) The original list of IP addresses supposedly collected by the JLU was a forgery and exposed by Soft Linden….true or false?

    2) Tux was banned from SL because he ran software designed and operated to spy on RL info of residents…. true or false?

    3) The small number of people leading the charg to ban the JLU for being “unjust” are people that engaged upon griefing “TOS-abiding” SL residents not involved in griefing or vigilantism? or, put another way, are the same self righteous people calling for justice the same people who have gotten their “lulz” from interfering with the enjoyment of a video game by customers who have paid to have that enjoyment. true or false?

    And did this really include the griefing of a Holocaust Memorial sim?

  31. Debi Dastardly

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Most likely I will be there too, as I am an admitted thought criminal too.

  32. Senban Babii

    Sep 19th, 2011


    I can’t speak to questions one and two but for question three let me pose that ex-poachers often make the best gamekeepers.

    It’s also true that while *some* of those leading the charge as you put it are former griefers (by their own admission), you can’t discount their claims based on their past actions. Their claims either stand or fall entirely on their own merit. If a convicted murderer brought a case against someone who committed burglary against him, would the judge throw out the case because “in your past you yourself have committed a crime”?

    It’s also true that you can’t simply dismiss this as faction wars unless you ignore the large number of regular SL residents who are calling for action over this matter, including myself – just check out the gargantuan threads over at SLU. I’ve never griefed in my life (unless you count making fun of the terminally stupid) and I’m calling for the Lab to get off their backsides on this as should *any* resident with reasonable expectations of privacy.

  33. Senban Babii

    Sep 19th, 2011

    “Most likely I will be there too, as I am an admitted thought criminal too.”

    I’m totally betraying you when I get to Room 101 :P

  34. Nelson Jenkins

    Sep 19th, 2011

    @ Paul

    The JLU claiming the “ex-griefers” are wrong about their actions solely because they are ex-griefers is also a well-known logical fallacy called argumentum ad hominem.

    Interestingly enough, the FBI likes to hire reformed ex-white-collar-criminals quite often for the same reason that ex-griefers are very trustworthy in pinpointing illegal/immoral activities. The bottom line is they know how to think like criminals, while the JLU only can rely on their misguided sense of morality, duty, and superiority.

  35. potosi abonwood

    Sep 19th, 2011

    @GLE – The comments section on the article were even shut down for a short period when people started submitting articles and then screenshotting the ‘awaiting approval’ screen as proof they were actually posting comments. They are reopened now but still nothing from anybody outside of the Justice Lords inner circle or prewritten disagreements have gone through.

    So please stop with the blatant lies, you are starting to look like Prok in that respect.

  36. Dontspill McGinnis

    Sep 19th, 2011

    @ Paul

    1) We haven’t isolated exactly where the original list came from.There are many theories, but no solid proof, though there is evidence that PD were harvesting IP’s which was then linked to Brainiac.

    2) Tux operated a radar array that scanned for JLU members across the grid. This was in game only. There was no collection of RL information (or IP’s) at all.

    3) As Senban stated, Most of those leading the charge are “normal” second life residents. I myself am labelled griefer by the JLU because I have long spoken against their methods, yet have not broken ToS.

    I hope this helps.

  37. potosi abonwood

    Sep 19th, 2011


    1) The original list of IP addresses supposedly collected by the JLU was a forgery and exposed by Soft Linden….true or false?

    True, however what group was collecting them has not been revealed and the arguement has moved on beyond the IP list and into their collection and distribution of RL info of SL users.

    2) Tux was banned from SL because he ran software designed and operated to spy on RL info of residents…. true or false?

    False. The software he made was suprisingly like the PD’s software that tracks specific avatars when they arrive an areas where he had permission to place his scanner. Also I believe he said this is not why he got banned also.

    3) The small number of people leading the charg to ban the JLU for being “unjust” are people that engaged upon griefing “TOS-abiding” SL residents not involved in griefing or vigilantism? or, put another way, are the same self righteous people calling for justice the same people who have gotten their “lulz” from interfering with the enjoyment of a video game by customers who have paid to have that enjoyment. true or false?

    A small number yes, but a LARGE portion (and getting larger) are folks who have never griefed anybody. People who have been harrassed for having nonhuman avi’s, for having ‘griefer style’ names, etc. Also people who believe in the right to privacy in Second Life and think the way the Justice Lords have acted to be downright deplorable. Not to mention a number of folks who are angry that the Justice Lords get to do things that would get regular users banned.

  38. Yep

    Sep 19th, 2011

    Go getem Tiger :P

  39. Yep

    Sep 19th, 2011

    the more the JLU opens their mouths the deeper they sink.
    There is no reason what so ever that would justify gathering any type of information on other users without their permission.
    I do admit it is funny to hear the JLU try to wiggle out from all of the evidence against them.
    So, don’t stop now. let the show go on. :D

  40. Astolat Dufaux

    Sep 20th, 2011

    I am not a griefer, never have been, and I find what the JLU is doing despicable.

    Now there are reports they are harassing STEAM hunters. If they are now interfering with merchants’ ability to do business, that’s the last straw.

    LL need to do something RIGHT NOW.

  41. Yep

    Sep 20th, 2011

    “Krypton Radio

    September 6, 2011 at 11:37 am

    We’d agree with you if there had, in fact, been “many comments”. There honestly haven’t beeon.

    The thread on SL Universe, now 300 pages and counting, was begun by people starting a rumor about the collection of IP addresses, later shown to have been false. People are very active about posting there because they know that if somebody from the League gets too close to a reasonable counter-argument, the admin there will simply ban them.

    There should be hundreds of angry posts being sent to Krypton Radio based on what appears to be a mass public outcry, but there aren’t. They’re just not being made. We’re not being inundated with personal messages in-world, either. There just doesn’t seem to be any direct engagement by the public, or any attempt to speak to us directly. We’re not seeing it. Sorry to disappoint on that one. We think the people who claim to be attempting to post on Krypton Radio and complaining about being blocked or having their comments trashed are simply lying about it for effect. SL Universe is about the only open forum where they could get away with ganging up on another group based on elaborate lies.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Coughing from laughing so hard. Don’t stop now, this is better than primetime cablevision.

  42. Ranma Tardis

    Sep 20th, 2011

    Most of the people on SL universe are assholes and the worse sort at that. They can all go FUCK themselves! They are so far over to the left to make President Obama a “neocon” conservative.

  43. Reader

    Sep 20th, 2011

    The anti-JLU movement is now being lead by “ex-griefers”? Talk about revisionist history. There are plenty of unrepentant griefers in that mob. Plenty, and that shouldn’t be forgotten. Also, those observing this lynch-mob affair are well aware of the “gargantuan” threads over on SLU that are comprised of very few, actual denizens, that can honestly raise their hands when asked – “Who here is just an average denizen without an axe to grind?”. That completely undermines the entire effort and it reads like that to even the most casual of viewer. There are certain ones banned that are verifiable griefers. The buck stops with LL on bans (and it gets spent by them too btw). Sure they [groaning banned griefers] will claim this & that about “false AR” bullshit but that’s a lame tantrum at best. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the JLU messed up and let it all leak out, but the Woodburies or Wrong Hands or whatever this new collective is calling themselves consciously took the low road in their fight against spandex justice. The average blog reader will ditch any of those long SLU rant threads after about 5 minutes of reading 2nd grader spew, no matter if they start from the beginning or jump in to the most recent comment entries. @ Sen, large number you say? Based on what? And where is that decisive action you all hoped for by LL, all these weeks later? Seems pretty apparent nothing is happening except for Prok enraging the masses and griefers continuing to get permabanned. JLU keeps living to see another day. Wonder why that is. Because the kids crying the most are the same ones getting banned or acting out on blogs & tweets (which you know Lindens have to be reading by now..). A prime case opportunity was a case presented and a case thrown out of court based upon the “playground principal”. It’s a paid service. It’s sign up at will. It’s (be) terminated at service providers discretion. It’s highly mismanaged but still generating income for the Lindens, which is the real bottom line here folks. Money and the ToS. So you have vigilantism running rampant on both sides (of this particular long standing beef) and a whole bunch of other squabbles taking place in other, far reaching corners of SL that aren’t even getting a moments coverage. This whole thing, like the many other unsung chapters not garnering attention, is idiots fighting with other idiots, over toys that don’t belong to either party (don’t even get me started on the whole ‘what belongs to LL and what belongs to individual users’ topic, because that’s an entirely different joke). Money and the ToS. And what is really amazing is the multitude of posts generated by the reigning few over on SLU. That dedication to getting the word out is admirable. BUT, when it gets repetitive, abusive, mob-like, childish, irrelevant, did I mention repetitive?, then even the most clever bits of humor and logic (few and far between) get lost in the noise.
    Who has the axes to grind you ask?
    Censored SLCC panel members, justice seeking individuals that have been confronted in RL on their very own doorsteps, people that lost sims and/or cash, people that get permabanned for being perennial trouble makers, people that have been outed on blogs and made to look foolish in the BDSM scene, wannabe IT specialists that write ban evasion clients, are forced to make public apologies, only to return for another round of fun & frolic, people who depend on SL for some level of social interaction and/or income enhancement (and who can fall into any of the above mentioned categories) – All that are either too butt hurt to simply walk away from something that doesn’t work (as a platform or work for them personally) or who fail to recognize when they’ve been told to simply leave. Denial! That’s what it is. Denial with a penchant to take it out on someone else, because, “boo-hoo, he/she took my toy and I’m gonna cry until I’m blue in the face and get some (much needed) attention”.

    Here’s the best part though. (and I think I mentioned this before). Eventually the whole shooting match reaches critical mass because all the die-hard actors become known commodities. The griefers have already leaked a bunch of names of JLU members, preemptively. Like that was a coincidence. The JLU knows who the griefers are, the griefers know who the JLU are, the griefers leak the JLU data pool so now EVERYONE knows who the griefers and the innocents are. So like I said, for all intents & purposes – everybody knows everybody. Professors, students, shut-ins, working professionals, stay-at-home-moms, lawyers, doctors and unfortunately, a significant number of vulnerable folks with physical or mental disabilities. Just visualize the dramatic ending scene with all these “so called” SL stake holders all carrying torches (some even wearing hoods) & everyone staring at one another, chanting ‘Down With [those other people]’ and ‘How Dare They [blah blah blah] My Second Life’. Then all of a sudden, the RL repercussions start to kick in.. This may not resonate with everyone at the moment but it will certainly for some. And that’s when this whole thing starts to get way more interesting…

    To answer your questions Paul:

    1) True. And any mention of RL info “distribution” is debunked by the actions of the reformed “do-gooders” who want you to believe that you (figurative community) are now suddenly in good hands because of what they themselves have leaked

    2) Unknown and unverifiable

    3) True. And any so-called “growth” in awareness is statistically insignificant compared to the total number of active users oblivious to the goings on of a baker’s dozen

    I sure hope someone writes a freaking, awesome book about this, because it has all the stuff legends (or legions of idiots) are made of.

  44. Astolat Dufaux

    Sep 20th, 2011

    Um, yeah… I for one haven’t contacted any of them directly because I don’t want to be entrapped for harassment and get my account banned.

  45. Astolat Dufaux

    Sep 20th, 2011

    @ Reader, it took WEEKS for LL to conduct an investigation into zFire and RedZone. And we know how that ended. I don’t think this situation is any different.

    Time will tell.

  46. Bunjie

    Sep 20th, 2011

    No one is contacting them because people don’t want to be reported in-world for harassment, we play by the rules and they don’t.

    Just because they get very few IM’s means nothing in the grand scene that’s being painted, it’s a shit pot that’s brewing to a boiling point and anger like I just expressed there will explode if Linden Lab does nothing to deal with this issue.

    Also FIC fuckers who bring Prokofy into it after shes long gone just to shit up the thread piss me right off, and cunts who bring stereotypes into it just because I’m a furrie are no better, especially ones who contributed nothing to this issue but a thread shit with their cooking and who have no basis to understand a passionate issue that has plagued residents for years.

    I hate FIC cunts who claim to be open and understanding and not holding 3rd party reputations against others by how they conduct their land and themselves and then turn round and support Prokofy as if we’re griefing her because Prokofy gave us that reputation so it must be true what ever she says, these assholes need a wake up call before I piss in their general direction and mark them out as a cunt.

    Ops sorry all ready marked him as one.

    And if the be all and end all comes down to how someone looks, well mark me down as as what ever you want as I’ll be laughing all the way out of here, while they’re still playing hopscotch with Linden Labs policy’s.

  47. Tux

    Sep 20th, 2011


    Please let me clarify:

    On the other hand, I do have some honest questions here:
    1) The original list of IP addresses supposedly collected by the JLU was a forgery and exposed by Soft Linden….true or false?

    True and False. Soft claimed the IP list was valid but was collected by a group told to leave SL and not return.

    2) Tux was banned from SL because he ran software designed and operated to spy on RL info of residents…. true or false?

    False. I avoid RL like the plague. I wouldn’t even troll someone who had their RL in their profile. The system I designed basically contacted my webserver for a list of JLU UUID’s and tested the sim for those avatars. If they was found it would update a page protected on my webserver. No RL information was needed for this. It didn’t even keep historical data. Only the most recent detection was logged. I gave this out to many people. They didn’t know its function. Finally, my accounts are on administrative hold. This has nothing to do with my tracking system. It is because my IP address has bee reported to LL for having hacked the JLU’s webserver. LL legal didn’t want to get involved, so they have locked the accounts. Hopefully when no proof comes to light they will be re-enabled. Although I doubt it.

    3) The small number of people leading the charg to ban the JLU for being “unjust” are people that engaged upon griefing “TOS-abiding” SL residents not involved in griefing or vigilantism? or, put another way, are the same self righteous people calling for justice the same people who have gotten their “lulz” from interfering with the enjoyment of a video game by customers who have paid to have that enjoyment. true or false?

    False. When the leak began many of us was surprised. As more information becomes public the issues begin to form. Many of the people on the forums are being labelled as griefers by the JLU, this means they become banned on the PhantomZone network. Whilst there are people who have been banned who are voicing their opinion, no one appears to be leading anyone. And I would put this to you: Who is a griefer? is it someone who has been mass AR’d and banned from SL? or is it in fact the group that mass AR’s people for their name, or appearance, or who they have spoken too? Many people who have been banned and even become griefers may not have if a mountain had not been made out of a mole hill.

    And did this really include the griefing of a Holocaust Memorial sim?

    I have no knowledge of this?

    I hope this clears up some things.

  48. paul

    Sep 20th, 2011

    Thanks for the clarification Tux. So with regards to point number 3, was I just imagining things when I saw you publicly threaten and promise to grief Proky in the SLU thread?

    You guys certainly have a point about the JLU, and it seems like the heart of this whole shebang has been to mount a legal and ethical argument against the JLU. FAIL! (as the computer nerds might say). You are wrong to think all the righteous chanting to hang the JLU has been effective to someone who started this as a neutral observer (I honestly don’t care if you believe that or not, or if you think I am prok, or a member of the JLU). Lord knows how it looks to LL or to a law enforcement agency. Senban, I can estimate the number of posts on that SLU thread as well as the JLU can, and the outraged horde of “garden variety SL users” just doesn’t exist. There are just a few of us on either side of the issue. The majority of those leading the charge are clearly griefers and ex-griefers, and let’s not forget, griefers are the absolute worst form of low life, because they cynically pray on people’s earnestness to make themselves feel good, to say nothing of costing people money.

    SL would be better off without the Watchers AND the Watchmen. Neither of you are doing the rest of us any favors, and most of us don’t even know you exist.

  49. hobo kelly

    Sep 20th, 2011

    ok mischief makers, here is the Simi Valley weather forecast for everyone who wants to get out and about this week:

    Today: Hot and sunny with daytime highs between 88 and 92 degrees with a westerly breeze at about 15mph.

    Tonight: Clear and balmy with lows in the upper 50′s in the valley to the lower 60′s in the hills. A westerly breeze will continue at 15mph.

    Rest of week: SImilar! Excellent weather for your end-of-summer ban prok picnic or super adventure club getaway. have fun out and about.

  50. Yep

    Sep 20th, 2011

    “We think the people who claim to be attempting to post on Krypton Radio and complaining about being blocked or having their comments trashed are simply lying about it for effect. SL Universe is about the only open forum where they could get away with ganging up on another group based on elaborate lies.””

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry it was so funny I had to laugh again :P

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