The Artemis Fate Interview: Justice League is Unnecessary and Overzealous
by Alphaville Herald on 18/09/11 at 8:34 pm
Longtime SL resident asks Linden Lab for statement on anti-griefer groups' limits
by Robble Rubble
[In Robble Rubble's exclusive interview with Artemis Fate, Ms. Fate - a respected class-of-2003 resident - points out that the Justice League Unlimited and similar anti-griefer vigilante groups are superfluous and attract exactly the sort of behaviors they claim to fight. She goes on to ask Linden Lab for a statement on exactly what is fair game for the vigilante groups and what should be off limits. - the Editrix]
Artemis Fate
Robble Rubble: So you've been on the grid a long time, can I ask what brought you to Second Life?
Artemis Fate: I used to be on Active worlds a little bit, I had came across it in the summer of 2003, but it was pretty rough then and I looked over it. Decided to try it in October of the same year and ended up getting really into it. Been around ever since.
Robble Rubble: Very nice, that's a long history on the grid. Can you give some insight into it? What sort of things do you spend time doing? What projects do you work on? What's your biggest accomplishments or even failures? Do you like long walks on the beach?
Artemis Fate: Insight into the history of the grid? It's changed rapidly while at the same time staying much the same. I used to be a builder, but I haven't done much in a while, due to moving from college into the 9-5 work world. My main project has been Nexus Prime, which has been on hold for a while, but there's some stuff in the works now that mesh is around. And sure, why not.
Robble Rubble: So it's safe to assume you are familiar with the recent controversy about the Justice League Unlimited?
Artemis Fate: And the two before that.
Artemis Fate believes the JLU has violated the spirit of the ToS
Robble Rubble: Let's not get too ahead of ourselves, can you tell me about your first awareness of the JLU? How did you hear about these people?
Artemis Fate: One of them came into Nexus Prime on a call, I'm not sure if someone had a communicator or if they were just patrolling. Nikola Shirakawa, who was a Green Lantern at the time.
Robble Rubble: Was this a positive or negative experience for you?
Artemis Fate: Largely negative, I didn't need an outside group using shields and other scripted tools to handle attacks when I could use sim tools. I ended up having to force her out of the sim since she was surprised that I wouldn't want their help. Afterwards Kalel Venkman IMed me saying much of the same and pointing out rather absurdly that the sim would be unprotected without their help. I asked them to not come around here, and apparently they did add Nexus Prime to their list of sims "not to patrol".
Robble Rubble: What sort of words would you use to describe the Justice League Unlimited and their practices?
Artemis Fate: I'd describe the Justice League itself as unnecessary, and their practices as overzealous.
Robble Rubble: That's a lot less four letter words than I would use.
Robble Rubble: Were there any other interactions with the JLU in Nexis Prime?
Artemis Fate: I'm sure they're generally good people on their own, and that they have good intentions, but together they're going overboard.
Artemis Fate: After that first one I never heard about them in Nexus Prime again, so I'm assuming they kept to their word.
Robble Rubble: What is it that caused you to to get involved in the recent discussions about the Justice League Unlimited on the SLUniverse and Second Citizen MKII boards?
Artemis Fate: The presence of a wiki had been something that was rumored about them the first I heard about them, it was interesting to see proof of it after the first leak, and how it evolved after every leak after that.
Robble Rubble: Have you ever felt you were a target of the JLU? Have you been contacted in world by any of the JLU members since the recent public backlash over the latest round of brainiac wiki leaks?
Artemis Fate: If I ever was, I was never aware of it. They don't have an article for me as far as I know, only a few mentions here and there.
Robble Rubble: What do you think will be accomplished by bringing this issue to the public?
Artemis Fate: I simply would want LL to make an official statement regarding the operation of anti-griefer groups in SL, what they can do, what they can't do.
Robble Rubble: I see that you have Greenlantern Excelsior to task on numerous occasions, what is your opinion on GLE's quality of damage control?
Artemis Fate: Poor.
Robble Rubble: heh
Robble Rubble: Do you think GLE's apologies are credible or are nothing more than that of an apology due to being caught, similar to what happened when Zenmondo was caught in the thread?
Artemis Fate: I don't think I've seen GLE apologize for anything.
Robble Rubble: He does seem adept at wiggling out of that.
Artemis Fate: At most, I've seen him say he regretted the comment regarding sending Nebula a threatening e-mail. [:0]
Robble Rubble: Do you have any questions you have or would have asked the JLU that remain unanswered, and if so would you care to share them with me? Any thoughts on why Kalel has refused to respond to most accusations himself?
Artemis Fate: The most obvious one would be why some of this information is necessary, and why measures haven't been taken to review and verify information put in the wiki for accuracy and necessity.
Artemis Fate: As for Kalel, I don't know. I haven't talked to him much outside of that one contact so many years ago, he seems paranoid and used to being in control now. I imagine it's a bit like Joseph McCarthy, who GLE seems to like so much, who was afraid to bring Charlie Chaplin to stand, knowing he'd lampoon him, so he revoked his right to re-enter the US when he was out of the country.
Artemis Fate: And if there's one thing serious men like that can't stand, it's being made fun of.
Robble Rubble: He does get his tights in a bunch over the smallest things.
Artemis Fate: That does seem to be the case.
Robble Rubble: So do you think the Justice League Unlimited have done anything to violate the Second Life terms of service or the community standards? Because at the end of the day, while people are screaming about ethical dilemnas, legal threats, letters to daytime television hosts and FBI investigations, do you think there is even a chance of making Linden Lab take action?
Artemis Fate: In terms of the letter of the ToS? I'm not sure. In terms of the spirit? Definitely. As per whether Linden Lab would take action, keep in mind that alt-detection and IP grabbing were not necessarily against the ToS until they were made so due to the community outrage.
Robble Rubble: Do you think that JLU members linking to their KryptonRadio blog while simultaniously ARing and getting people removed from search for posting links to blogs critical of them demonstrates any sort of bias that the Lab has in their favor?
Artemis Fate: No, I don't think so. From the evidence I've seen, they once were able to sway more than a few lindens to their cause, but that day seems to have passed, now they talk about in their meetings that none of the Lindens will pay attention to them.
Robble Rubble: In the SLU thread you were talking about an experiment with an alt, Night Sun, could you tell me about that?
Artemis Fate: That was around the same time as the last leak. People were claiming that the JLU was ARing them for being critical of the group. I decided to test out the theory myself using an old alt I had made but never used. I made a sign that was critical of the JLU but not violating any part of the ToS. I actually had a discussion with GLE through the alt and he agreed that it wasn't against the ToS (this didn't stop him from ARing it however). Then I basically sat around and waited to see what would happen.
Robble Rubble: What ended up happening?
Artemis Fate: I got suspended for disclosure. I decided to try again, this time changing the sign from a link to the leaked wiki to a Herald article chosen for no disclosing material. I got suspended again for Disclosure after that. So I removed links to anything in general, and left just the sign. I was suspended for defamation at that point.
Artemis Fate: "Linden Lab has been a mystery in their actions"
Robble Rubble: So what are your thoughts on JLU members linking their KryptonRadio blog in world, a blog that often discloses the RL names of their critics and is full of articles that seem to be written with the intention of grandstanding and defaming their critics?
Artemis Fate: Well, the disclosure suspensions were referenced to linking to the wiki. I think if LL is doing suspensions for material hosted outside of SL, that's a pretty grey area. I don't think people should be suspended for what they say outside of SL, but at the same time I can understand the problems with having a link to a site in world that's full of readily available disclosing information. All in all, I think that the Linden who suspended for it was wrong, not that it was wrong to link that site in world.
Robble Rubble: Do you think that the recent calls of people to contact outside intervention (FBI, Scotland Yard, Ellen lol) will have any effect without Linden Lab taking direct action?
Artemis Fate: I think any outside authority besides Linden Lab would and should disregard it entirely. On the scale of utter travesties of justice that require their attention, this is extremely low ranking (Even for Ellen).
Robble Rubble: Do you have any recomendations on how people can get Linden Lab to take action?
Artemis Fate: I really don't, in all this time Linden Lab has been a mystery in their actions. Sometimes they let things slide, and other times they crack down hard. I do think, however, that they are very aware of this, and have probably already thought out what actions they might or might not take and how it would effect the community and their ToS.
Robble Rubble: What do you think about the fact that a common red herring to many of the criticisms that are posed to the JLU are that they come from people they consider to be "griefers"? And in that light if the fact that many former members of Woodbury, W-hat or members of The Wrong Hands, openly admit to many of the wrongs they have done in the past, do you think that those people's criticisms of the behavior of the Justice League Unlimited should be discarded simply because they were or are admitted griefers?
Artemis Fate: I think no one's point should be disregarded because of their background, if they can make a good point.
Robble Rubble: Some argue that the behavior of the JLU actually creates more griefers on the grid than they prevent due to the collateral damage of innocents being considered guilty by association, getting banned, then returning to the grid as griefers when they previously would not have done so had it not been for the JLU action. What do you think of this theory?
Artemis Fate: I think the JLU make for amusing targets for griefers, which in itself keeps ones around who would otherwise get bored. I know that a lot of the people in Woodbury and otherwise didn't really grief either, but just were involved in a group that was known for it, and they got caught up in a ban for that too. I have no idea if that kind of collateral damage theory is true, but it sounds reasonable.
Robble Rubble: Artemis, I thank you for your time, but before you go. What are your predictions about how this will ultimately end?
Artemis Fate: I honestly couldn't say, during the Emerald fiasco, I was thinking LL would let it slide again, like they had so many times before. Instead they cracked down on the viewer hard and took it apart in a matter of a week or two. For this, I don't know. I'm hoping at the very least they'll make a statement regarding it.
We
Sep 20th, 2011
When you want to know how humanely the police are handling criminals, you ask the criminals, the “garden-variety everday” citizen isn’t going to have any experience with the subject.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
ya, I gotta agree Hobo, I suspect Kalolz is gonna get the shit trick or treated out of his house this halloween….. Someone take a dump in his pumpkin for me, will ya?
Nelson Jenkins
Sep 20th, 2011
@ Tux
Doesn’t matter if I get labelled as a griefer anyway, since I have no intention of going to anywhere patrolled by those silly tights-wearing geeks.
Yep
Sep 20th, 2011
Go getem Tiger
Robble Rubble
Sep 20th, 2011
@Intblubber
Please refrain from encouraging people to harass other residents in person. There is no humor to be had from any real life stalking.
I would also like to take this chance to state that Intblubber has never had and never will have any impact on The Wrong Hands’s decision making process.
hobo kelly
Sep 20th, 2011
@Intlibber
I knew someone that got a big “yule log” in the mail around christmas time once maybe close to 20 years ago now. The guy who recieved it in the mail almost vomited when he opened it up. The post office wouldn’t even try to trace where it was mailed from because it smelled so bad even through it was in a metal tin with nice xmas artwork on it, they didn’t want anything else to do with it beyond delivering it. The guy that sent it eventually died when his house burned down around him. Too bad that he got so invested in the “war” that he started drinking too much and fell asleep drunk with a cigarette in his hand. oops. That was a different era way back then, nothing virtual, all psyops were in the real world. Your “Poop Pumpkin” is an interesting idea though, kind of a variation on the Flaming Poop Bag… I wonder what could be done to realize the full abilities of a Poop Pumpkin?
Tux
Sep 20th, 2011
@Paul
‘Thanks for the clarification Tux. So with regards to point number 3, was I just imagining things when I saw you publicly threaten and promise to grief Proky in the SLU thread?’
Although it was perceived as a threat, I was offering to entertain her. She is clearly a lonely old woman. And I am a sucker for a hopeless case. There was no threat there. And I certainly haven’t had the time to go inworld and see her.
‘You guys certainly have a point about the JLU, and it seems like the heart of this whole shebang has been to mount a legal and ethical argument against the JLU.’
Actually, had I got the wiki I would not have gone through all this. I would have just dumped it publicly because I could. All this running around and discussing each page drives me crazy tbh.
‘You are wrong to think all the righteous chanting to hang the JLU has been effective’
I have to disagree. The JLU reputation is on the downslide. Already people are shunning them, land owners banning them, and PZ has been added to the GZ HUD. People know of their antics to get RL information, they know of the contacting of schools/colleges/employers/parents etc. All of their actions should not have ever taken place. Definately not on a gaming platform.
‘I honestly don’t care if you believe that or not, or if you think I am prok, or a member of the JLU’
I don’t assume you are anyone. I’ll leave that to the JLU.
‘SL would be better off without the Watchers AND the Watchmen. Neither of you are doing the rest of us any favors, and most of us don’t even know you exist.’
I totally agree, but how many of the griefers would never have become griefers if they hadn’t encountered a JLU AR party? Being a troll doesn’t count, as SL is full of them, just go to a welcome hub.
Reader
Sep 20th, 2011
Tux, this is an inaccurate characterization and you know it:
“Actually, had I got the wiki I would not have gone through all this. I would have just dumped it publicly because I could. All this running around and discussing each page drives me crazy tbh.”
You were cheerleading the systematic and deliberate release of “pieces” of the wiki with zeal and enthusiasm. The pieces weren’t merely, “oh look what I found today”, but carefully orchestrated bits (many that were quite old in fact) that were played out a like a fiddlers dream on the pages of SLU by TheListSL. To now suggest in vague fashion that running round and discussing each page is driving you crazy – implying that it was the wrong approach and not what you wanted or would have done – is revisionist in nature. It drove you crazy all right; crazy excited and it is easy to decode that fact (your true nature) on the pages of SLU.
You’ve been a key orchestral director in all of this and now you want everyone to believe you are just a side-line but concerned victim? Oh please. You CLEARLY and eagerly have “gone throught all this” from the very beginning, which actually started long before any of this went public and the media mob-blitz ever began on SLU.
You aided in the comment/story cross-linking between the Herald and the SLU when Pix made the strategic decision not “break the news” in normal fashion – - which she has done on many fronts lately I might add – - whilst also displaying a complete lack of decorum for someone occupying a key and vocal seat at the head of the table.
Take credit where credit is due and stop with the shape-shifting.
Dontspill McGinnis
Sep 20th, 2011
@ Tux
I wouldn’t bother responding. Reader doesn’t appear to be very bright and wont listen to any point other than his(?) own own anyway.
With the rage wall of text last night, the insulting style of writing and the emphatic belief that everyone else in the world is wrong despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, reader displays a striking resemblance to a certain lady who spent an obsessive amount of time and energy trying to derail the SLU thread, and whom is rumoured to be awfully fond of cats.. lots of cats.
Reader
Sep 20th, 2011
Spill, “overwhelming” you say? In your wildest dreams buddy. Your day job is what again? Does it actually involve some level of math?
Wake up pal and smell to coffee. You’ve lost. So how about you add your name to the list of “known actors” and come clean. Tux revealed, how about you? Oh, and btw, Tux is a big enough boy to decided what and when he will answer; that’s one trait of his that is indisputable. You look like a fool even framing the discussion in that fashion – much like a mother hen.
And as far as your last bit of crying, Prok didn’t need to derail anything, even when she was over there actively entering her viewpoint before becoming censored. All of you thread flies over on SLU are doing just a fine job of derailing the argument, all by your “lonesome” selves. As much as it hurts to say it, you’ve lost that imaginary Prok battle too! In world grief much Spill? More so, obsess about cats more-much?
So let’s see, would I rather be compared to Prok or flat out be called a demonstrative fool, like you?
[no response required because it's the same old tired repetition]
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
“We” said: “When you want to know how humanely the police are handling criminals, you ask the criminals, the “garden-variety everday” citizen isn’t going to have any experience with the subject”
lol that is an awesome point: there is a reason that ‘garden variety’ citizens don’t experience that: because they are not criminals! ergo, don’t be a criminal if you don’t want to experience it.
Tux said: “Although it was perceived as a threat, I was offering to entertain her. She is clearly a lonely old woman.”
uh huh. I really believe that. truly.
“The JLU reputation is on the downslide”
Definitely. Based on what I have read, it seems they are a bunch of internet addicted loons who are desperate for any shred of power they can manage in otherwise desperate lives.
Of course, I have also reached the same conclusion about most of the opposition as well.
Senban Babii
Sep 20th, 2011
@Reader
“And as far as your last bit of crying, Prok didn’t need to derail anything, even when she was over there actively entering her viewpoint before becoming censored.”
Prok wasn’t “censored”. She was being an abusive troll, deliberately derailing the thread(s) endlessly, redirecting the subject to her status as professional victim. It became literally impossible to actually discuss the subject at hand without her posting half a dozen individual posts every few minutes. People were having to place her on ignore so they could simply engage in the actual discussion. I’ve moderated forums (not SL related) and if I’d been in Cristiano’s position, I would have taken the same actions. Prok wasn’t censored, she placed herself in a position where her continued presence in the thread(s) was unsupportable.
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
@ Tux
I suppose that intlibber and hobo are also merely suggesting on this page that people should go and just ‘entertain’ Venkman at his RL home as well, eh? just good hearted fun.
Reader
Sep 20th, 2011
@Sen,
You (figuratively anyone) can’t plead disruption and derailing when most the usual suspects are all calling “hit the ignore button” over there. If everyone followed that rule, and more importantly, didn’t violate the gag (ignore) order by quoting her, the thread would have remained more constrained or on-topic and she might have simply gone away. Be that as it may (have been in practice), the insults, the childish behavior was rampant on the threads long before Prok joined the discussion – more importantly – continued after she was banned. Taking it out on Prok when decorum was already completely out-the-window and undermining the effort, doesn’t quite make a sensible case Sen.
I’m not defending her behavior (that resulted in a ban over there), I’m just saying Cristiano let the whole shooting match get out-of-hand prior to Prok jumping in the pool and let “prok like” behaviors continue by the rest of the mob throughout the discussion. If you are not consistent in applying moderation, it is censorship on a selective basis IMHO.
Unsupportable? Prok was (is) hardly exclusive in that category on SLU. But we are disagreeing on details Sen. The damage was done over there, Prok or no Prok. Personally I found Prok no more insulting or disruptive than many of the others still alllowed to participate (if you want to call it that…) in the imbalanced discussion over there. The fact still remains, anybody can use the ignore button and clean up the thread – multiple times over by selecting mulitple names – but if you’re more interested in bashing instead of gleening truth, in it just for the lulz or simply a waffle-wit, then keeping the ignore button ON is a hard reality to live with. Most those that chant, “IGNORE, IGNORE and let’s get back on topic” love the dynamic of ‘prok said this’ and ‘[ fill in the black ] came back with this funny response’ bit. When I am over there reading I dont ignore anyone; it defeats the purpose of understanding and evaluating the underlying argument and getting to know the “stage”.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
After all, Paul, Halloween is the official holiday of legalized griefing.
We
Sep 20th, 2011
@Paul
“lol that is an awesome point: there is a reason that ‘garden variety’ citizens don’t experience that: because they are not criminals! ergo, don’t be a criminal if you don’t want to experience it.”
And the JLU aren’t police, or official in any way. I was trying to give an explanation for the number of ex-griefers criticizing the JLU. That backgrounds of the persons involved have nothing to do with the points at hand.
Senban Babii
Sep 20th, 2011
@Reader
You make some good points and yes I do agree, if I was in charge over there there’d be a few more banhammers being swung for the same behaviours.
I’d add though that the usual suspects were often the ones calling for some return to a semblance of order. Is SLU a bit chaotic? Well yes, that’s because of the target audience. It’s a product of its userbase and its userbase is chaotic. The same goes for here at the Herald of course. There are places for serious debate but the AH and SLU forum are not (usually) them.
I agree too that the use of the mute/ignore function can be bad but even I was approaching the point where I was going to mute Prok. For the record I actually have nothing against her. I’ve never met her or spoken to her or anything. Yes I’ve given her a little ribbing on the forums or whatever, that’s the nature of the SL reality and we all have to grow thicker skins, especially if we choose to raise our heads above the battlements. Look at the recent banter between Debi Dastardly and myself and yet we laugh about it and seem to be friends. But Prok gets nasty and abusive and that’s a different world. I really do believe she’s a professional victim and she uses this to justify the way she bullies and abuses. The web2.0 generation thrives on the currency of attention and Prok knows exactly how to attract the attention she feeds on.
But to reiterate I do agree that there were others over there that needed a slapped wrist too. However Cristiano (as far as I understand) is the sole moderator and that means he has to deal with high percentage problems as his first priority. And during the recent discussions, that was Prok.
I think that moderating SL users in any way is like herding cats with a pound of ginger stuffed up their backsides. To a large degree the only thing to do is let them in effect self moderate and only deal with directly abusive or disruptive users.
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
@Intlibber
ahhh so you are not denying what was implied: you are supporting the notion that people from the internet should visit Venkman’s RL house and grief him. Thanks for the clarification!
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
We, you are correct, the JLU are not police, or otherwise official in any way. Thus their critics are not “criminals”, so given the principle of presumption of innocence, they should be treated that way. The JLU are more like Dawg the Bounty Hunter breaking into the wrong house, beating down an innocent person, and dragging them off to the police station, and killing them along the way…. They simply do NOT have the tools to determine who really is a griefer or not in most circumstances. The old right click to look at an objects owner is no longer valid since prim ownership can now be faked, and scripts can be dropped in other peoples objects, and even sims can be crashed by crashing the script compiler while in the sim, so there will not be any actual evidence of the culprit. Furthermore, most of the low level people at LL’s subcontractor who process most AR’s are too incompetent to determine anything accurate either.
The JLU are nothing but a spandex clad Hitler Youth Brigade.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
Paul,
No, I’m not, I’m not saying anybody SHOULD do anything.
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
@IntLibber
I get the distinction! You just think that if someone DID do it, it would be fine idea. =] For goodness sake their is a HUGE difference between being pleased with the idea of an internet ghost showing up in the flesh on the doorstep of someone you DISLIKE versus the idea of an internet ghost showing up in the flesh on the doorstep of someone you LIKE. The one case is merry halloween fun, the other is the behavior of a “hitler youth brigade”. makes total sense.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
Given, Paul (or should I say, Maverick or Kalel), that when Kalel and his buddies alts were the ones manipulating the PN to grief other peoples estates like mine, they thought it would be a fine idea to try to get the PN to raid my RL home. Odd how Kalolz is sensitive when the shoe is on the other foot. Given Kalel also had a hand in destroying my entire SL business, conspiring with his g-team buddies, I wouldn’t shed a tear if misfortune befell that tin pot megalomaniac. Karma bites you in the ass.
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
Why is that you idiots default to thinking I am a JLU member or Prok whenever you get cornered into facing the contradictions in your own arguments?
Reader
Sep 20th, 2011
“Given Kalel also had a hand in destroying my entire SL business, conspiring with his g-team buddies…”
See, now we are getting to the heart of the matter. I admire your honesty IntLibber.
Reader
Sep 20th, 2011
“Why is that you idiots default to thinking I am a JLU member or Prok whenever you get cornered into facing the contradictions in your own arguments?”
It’s simple Paul. It’s called Denial and it’s an easy cop-out.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
There are no contradictions in my arguments.
Senban Babii
Sep 20th, 2011
You know what, this article is about how the JLU is overzealous and once again it’s down to me to bring it back on track with VIDEO EVIDENCE. I don’t know what you people would do without me, I really don’t.
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6611293/batman-interrogation
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
@IntLibber “There are no contradictions in my arguments”
Yes there is. Either SL intruding into RL is a capital crime or a laughing matter..make up your mind.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
Ok, perhaps you lack the comprehension to understand, Paul, that I have my standards, and Kalel has his standards. I hold other people to their standards, not to mine. It is Kalel that is the contradictory hypocrite here.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 20th, 2011
Sen, that is perfect.
Paul
Sep 20th, 2011
@ Intlibber
So your standard is to find it amusing, and in fact, in public, to encourage the idea that someone from SL should prank Venkman in RL at his actual house, while at the same time condemning Venkman for collecting RL information about people and calling him “hitler youth”.
I get it now!
Dontspill McGinnis
Sep 20th, 2011
@ Reader
WTF?
“Spill, “overwhelming” you say? In your wildest dreams buddy. Your day job is what again? Does it actually involve some level of math?”
Why are you trying to find out what I do for a living in the real world, Reader? Isn’t this what the whole debacle is about?
“Wake up pal and smell to coffee. You’ve lost. So how about you add your name to the list of “known actors” and come clean. Tux revealed, how about you?”
Well sure, okay, as we are pals now…
I once stole the milk money from the bottle for candy when I was a kid, but I know it was wrong and I cry myself to sleep over it every night. (Oh and make that a tea, would you? I dislike coffee, thanks.)
“Oh, and btw, Tux is a big enough boy to decided what and when he will answer; that’s one trait of his that is indisputable. You look like a fool even framing the discussion in that fashion – much like a mother hen.”
Yes, I see that….. You see, it’s called irony. But I guess you kind of miss that when you are raging. Never mind
)
“And as far as your last bit of crying, Prok didn’t need to derail anything, even when she was over there actively entering her viewpoint before becoming censored. All of you thread flies over on SLU are doing just a fine job of derailing the argument, all by your “lonesome” selves.”
Prok was being an obnoxious, insulting troll.. I can’t now possibly imagine why I ever drew a comparison with you.
“As much as it hurts to say it, you’ve lost that imaginary Prok battle too! In world grief much Spill? More so, obsess about cats more-much?”
I’ve never met Prok, and didn’t engage her over at SLU either. As such an avid “reader” of that thread, I would have expected you to notice that, seeing as you try to insult me at every turn over here. No I don’t grief much, in fact not at all.
I think I noted before that English probably isn’t your first language, so perhaps you would kindly translate “more-much” for me? I’m afraid I cant figure out what you might be trying to say?
“So let’s see, would I rather be compared to Prok or flat out be called a demonstrative fool, like you?”
Ummm, tough choice now that you mention it, but as I don’t see anyone relevant calling me a “demonstrative fool” I’ll go with that thanks.
“[no response required because it's the same old tired repetition]”
Rather like your insulting tirades, devoid of either logic, reason or cognitive thought.
Still, its good that you give us some light relief from all the data mining, stalking, evidence manufacturing and other illegal, immoral and downright arrogant practices of the JLU. So for that, I’ll raise a glass to you.
IntLibber Brautigan
Sep 21st, 2011
Um no Paul, thats not it at all, but like I said, your reading comprehension seems low, but about normal for a JLU symp.
GreenLantern Excelsior
Sep 21st, 2011
@ Senban
“Prok wasn’t censored, she placed herself in a position where her continued presence in the thread(s) was unsupportable.”
If Prok had written the same number of posts in opposition to JLU, she would still be there. But she was on the wrong side, so she was purged. Now that she’s gone, SLU members can continue back-slapping each other in a congratulatory fashion for being clever enough to cause a multi-page meaningless kerfluffle that will never go beyond (“Harumph Harumph!”) artificial indignation. I’m sure Cristiano got an inbox full of private messages reporting Prok’s behavior and requesting an immediate ban…which, when you think about it, is the same as the JLU AR parties that you guys whine about so much. The hypocrisy over there is so thick you could cut it with a knife. Enjoy your echo chamber.
“But Prok gets nasty and abusive and that’s a different world. I really do believe she’s a professional victim and she uses this to justify the way she bullies and abuses.”
Speaking of professional victims, wow, there’s a whole forum chock full of them at SLU. As each new page from the stolen wiki is revealed, the feigned anger rises to the stratosphere, and the same few folks make the same range of comments. And in most of the cases, no one on the board has any personal involvement with anything that was posted from the wiki. So actually the board is full of professional victimless victims, wasting hours and days posting and reposting the same comments in the same discussion thread, and ironically very worried over how much time JLU members spend online. And they will never see the contradiction.
paul
Sep 21st, 2011
@ Intlibber
Are you honestly suggesting that I am a “JLU sympathizer” and simultaneously questioning my reading comprehension? lmaooo
ok buddy you win you caught me…I think the JLU are a righteous organization and venkman is my hero.
Artemis Fate
Sep 21st, 2011
@GreenLantern Excelsior
“If Prok had written the same number of posts in opposition to JLU, she would still be there. But she was on the wrong side, so she was purged. ”
What’s your proof of this? So far there have been two administrative actions in SLU over this thread, one for you for repeated disclosure, which despite Krypton Radio’s statement, was a suspension, not a ban (as far as I know you’re able to post there right now currently, but choose not to).
Prokofy was banned for harassment, double/triple/quadruple posting, and trolling. Considering that Prokofy is or has been banned from just about every Second Life related forum messaging system out there, it should come to no surprise, and make no suggestion on the character of, any new SL board he’s banned from.
There has been no evidence of bans being dished out for supporting the JLU on SLU, again, against Krypton Radio’s statement. Hewee Zetkin, Vagabond Carter, and ZenMondo all posted on SLU in support of the JLU, and no administrative actions were taken against any of them.
This is what would be considered defamatory speech, you know, that thing in the AR box that the JLU uses to silence detractors, I’d recommend you retract these statements or find proof of them lest you be considered a hypocrite.
Astolat Dufaux
Sep 21st, 2011
You just don’t get it, do you, GLE.
Let’s get back to the real topic at hand.
The JLU collecting information on residents affects ALL of us. Your AR parties, falsifying chat logs and now your new “troll” designation for people (like me probably) who disagree with the JLU’s methods.
It diminishes the experience of SL for all residents. From the logs I’ve seen, anyone can show up in your database for the most ridiculous things — and even be falsely labeled an alt of one of the “griefers” you are so obsessed with. It’s ridiculous.
Would you like someone collecting information on you without your knowledge — without your permission?
What exactly is the point of a user group like the JLU collecting and monitoring information residents?
WHAT BUSINESS IS IT OF YOURS?
GreenLantern Excelsior
Sep 21st, 2011
@ Astolat
What business is it of yours what someone does with information that’s available in the public domain? Why do you care? Why do you need to know the point of doing it? How does it “diminish the experience of SL for all residents” in any way whatsoever?
I’m going to copy your post into a text file and save it on my hard disk. Now look around. Do you see anyone’s experience being diminished? No. This whole affair is circling the drain now because it has become so ridiculous. Even the people who were so incensed about it in the beginning are starting to get bored and lose interest.
Stick a fork in it. It’s done.
Astolat Dufaux
Sep 21st, 2011
@ GLE
Only it’s NOT just information in the public domain you’ve been collecting. AND there is a difference between me posting information on myself in the public domain, and you **collecting** it — for no discernible reason.
The JLU is NOT a company asking permission to collect my information; nor are you official law enforcement, potential employers, journalists, insurance companies who all have legitimate reasons to collect my information.
They are either vetted by the government or another authority to do so — and they are legally obligated to follow certain guidelines when collecting that information.
Has the JLU been given permission by Linden Lab to act on behalf of LL to conduct these kinds of investigations? No. Have you been given more special powers in SL than anyone else who has a resident user group? No.
Unless you can give me a legitimate reason for collecting personal information — which I have yet to hear — the JLU are nothing more than lawless stalkers. End of story.
Dontspill McGinnis
Sep 21st, 2011
@GLE
How about the JLU discussing the use of off world chat in AR’s?
I think the plan was to AR Tux and Atlas for a conversation that occurred in Tux’s blog (off world), and passing it off as having occurred in world?
Perhaps you would like me to post a link to that little tidbit?
That REALLY shows the JLU in their true light doesn’t it?
Sep 21st, 2011
@GLE
“If Prok had written the same number of posts in opposition to JLU, she would still be there. But she was on the wrong side, so she was purged.”
Wrong. Prokofy has a tendency to try to make every post anywhere about how she has suffered so terribly against anyone she claims to be a griefer. Her bar for what she considers a griefer is far too low. She has thin skin. She cannot take a joke. She has no sense of perspective. The very few people who can claim to be friendly to her can be counted on one hand (which is probably missing a few fingers).
It’s no wonder the JLU and her seem to be getting along so well lately. You guys have a lot more in common than was immediately apparent.
She was disrupting the thread by throwing wild accusations at everyone there and several people who were not even taking part in the discussion. What does her suffering (real or imagined) have to do with the JLU? Not a single thing.
The only reason she was even able to post in the thread at all is because Cris hadn’t bothered putting her into the ban list when the forum software was updated. And considering how Cris himself directly responded to Prok’s lies more than one time during the course of the first thread, it’s not hard to see why she was banned again.
“…which, when you think about it, is the same as the JLU AR parties that you guys whine about so much. The hypocrisy over there is so thick you could cut it with a knife.”
Hardly. When the JLU’s bar for “griefer” has historically gone as low as “someone used this SL name on a website that is run by people critical of the JLU” or “said something unfavorable about Kalel on a third party website”, it doesn’t take a lot for you guys to throw your capes on and start filing reports!
And considering the intelligence gathering capabilities the JLU have displayed so far (like calling a retired soldier on the phone in your attempts to harass and intimidate Fred/Nexis), it really shines a bad light on your group and the individuals still supporting it willingly.
I would hardly call your organization’s data mining skills any kind of “intelligence”. It certainly seems to be lacking in that department.
“Enjoy your echo chamber.”
That’s the thing. There is new information coming to light still to this day. It may be occurring at a slower rate than it was in the first days of this PR nightmare (for you/JLU), but it still keeps on going.
Also, when you invite comments onto a blog that is heavily censored to the point that the only posts on it consist of a range between “slightly neutral” and “congratulating the JLU for everything it does”, you sound like a hypocrite. Especially when several of the handles being used there are proven JLU sock puppets. Enjoy your echo chamber.
“And in most of the cases, no one on the board has any personal involvement with anything that was posted from the wiki.”
Fred Rookstown, Joshua Nightshade, Imnotgoing Sideways, I could keep going but I think you get the point. Or you might, except I doubt you give this comment more than a passing glance since it contains refutations of your flawed logic.
“So actually the board is full of professional victimless victims, wasting hours and days posting and reposting the same comments in the same discussion thread”
Clearly you have not been reading that closely. Am I surprised? Not really, given your track record.
“And they will never see the contradiction.”
You call people out for doing a few of the same things you are doing, but you are incapable of seeing your own hypocrisy.
“What business is it of yours what someone does with information that’s available in the public domain?”
Were the emails between Joshua Nightshade and a PN member in the public domain?
Are the contents of a WHOIS search in the public domain?
What about the name change records on Nikola?
If you answered “yes” to any or all of these, you and your organization have some serious problems to work out with regards to the concept of “privacy” and “the public domain”.
“Why do you care?”
Your organization’s bar for what you consider a “person of interest”, a “griefer”, or your new designation “troll” are so low, people are rightfully concerned that they will be the next victim of your “justice”.
“Why do you need to know the point of doing it?”
You don’t seem to understand the concept of a “public service organization”. When the public is concerned that your organization is not doing them a service, they have a right to know the logic behind your actions. All that you and the JLU have managed to do is lie, misdirect, and ignore all the issues brought up as “no big deal”, and you think people are going to keep accepting that line? How deluded are you, really?
‘How does it “diminish the experience of SL for all residents” in any way whatsoever?’
As stated above, when you leap at shadows, falsify records, stalk, abuse, and libel people, all seemingly with the blessing of Linden Labs, it does not make Second Life a very attractive place for anyone.
“I’m going to copy your post into a text file and save it on my hard disk. Now look around. Do you see anyone’s experience being diminished? ”
That post was provided willingly and contains nothing that could be remotely considered personal or private information. You are attempting to compare apples to oranges and failing to see why that is illogical.
“This whole affair is circling the drain now because it has become so ridiculous.”
Hardly. Posts may be less frequent on the relevant threads, but movement is still apparent. But you would know that if you had an ounce of reading comprehension, or the ability to read anything at all that was criticizing you and your buddies.
“Even the people who were so incensed about it in the beginning are starting to get bored and lose interest.”
Oh, this is another case where you assume that silence is equal to “The JLU is awesome and nobody opposes us!”, just as your organization’s history with LL has shown. Logical fallacy. Next!
“Stick a fork in it. It’s done.”
This is what the masses have been saying to the JLU. But you do not seem to get it.
Now, because I expect you to ignore this entire post due to the high volume of questions and criticisms, I would like to issue a challenge to you, GLE. I dare you to answer every question and every point that was brought up in this comment. No lies, no misdirection. Just address the people as the apparent JLU spokesman you seem to think you are. Point by point. If you ignore anything I have mentioned, you fail the challenge.
I do not think you have what it takes to address these points, because you know they will be too hard to refute. You might want to trade in that green ring for a yellow one, as I do not think you have the WILLPOWER or COURAGE to bother with what has been said here.
Until you address the contents of this post according to the terms provided, you will now be referred to as YellowLantern Excelsior. Maybe you ought to switch your display name over now and just accept that the people making this “uproar” have a point.
Yep
Sep 21st, 2011
“Stick a fork in it. It’s done.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!….. You must be a standup comedian in RL.
Tell us another one.
Gundel Gaukelei
Sep 21st, 2011
Linking information and/or moving it out of context creates/reveals new information. Otherwise datamining wouldn’t make any sense.
Whatever … I do not care, if my european idea of privacy may seem ridiculous to you. You got every right to have your opinion. The whole cause behind all this is, that I shouldn’t have to care about who you are and what you think. Because I signed up for a service provided by LL. And having unauthorized 3rd parties stalking users wasn’t part of the deal as I see it. I do not care, what the local law says because I’m demanding this as a paying customer. So if you are demanding the opposite as the paying customer you are too, it all comes down to LL making a business choice.
Senban Babii
Sep 21st, 2011
@GLE
“If Prok had written the same number of posts in opposition to JLU, she would still be there. But she was on the wrong side, so she was purged. Now that she’s gone, SLU members can continue back-slapping each other in a congratulatory fashion”
In the same way that Krypton Radio has been shown over and over again of censoring any posts which could prove embarrassing and then claiming that the whole thing is a storm in a teacup that no one really cares about. You’ve seen the many screenshots recently posted as proof, right?
See the difference is that Prok was suspended because she attempted to derail the discussion in her own direction because she’s a click whore. You censor discussion because you’re fighting a propaganda war to preserve what’s left of the JLU’s reputation.
Oh and this.
“What business is it of yours what someone does with information that’s available in the public domain?”
See this is the thing. Collecting information is one thing. Acting upon that information is another. You keep saying that collecting information is perfectly fine (debatable) but you attempt to then ignore the massive amount of hard evidence showing you all planning ways to use that information to attack people e.g. by calling their employer, getting people kicked off their college courses and so on. You conveniently ignore those aspects of the issue don’t you Mr Corporate Spin Doctor?
And you – YOU – of all people are in no position to do anything but apologise and walk away after calling the relatives of a dead/dying man to find out if he’s really dead or just having a bit of a laugh. The fact that you don’t speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.
GreenLantern Excelsior
Sep 21st, 2011
@ Astolat
No one, including JLU, needs permission to do a Google search. Whether the information is maintained on Google’s target website or on a file somewhere else makes no difference. Who appointed you as the Search Police to review other groups and demand explanations?
@ Dontspill
You are the very last person who should should have the moral authority to make any kind of judgment of another group, after you flew around SL placing Tux’s chat spy objects everywhere. Clean up your own house first, and then you can ask questions about someone else’s house.
@ Unnamed user
Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Come back with your real SL name and maybe I will respond.
@ Gundel
“Linking information and/or moving it out of context creates/reveals new information. Otherwise datamining wouldn’t make any sense.”
Wrong. It’s the same information, just written down in a different place. The same goal could have been accomplished with a series of hyperlinks instead of the actual results. Nothing new was stored.
“The whole cause behind all this is, that I shouldn’t have to care about who you are and what you think.”
The feeling is mutual. I don’t know who you are either. Have a nice day.
@ Senban
“See this is the thing. Collecting information is one thing. Acting upon that information is another.”
So who authorized you to be the detective conducting the JLU investigation? Show me your badge and your ID card and then the interrogation can continue. Otherwise you are just a busybody trying to stick your nose into someone else’s business where it doesn’t belong.
hobo kelly
Sep 21st, 2011
Green Lantern Excelsior and the JLU have been collecting detailed real life personal information on teenagers as young as 15 years old in Second Life, and like the typical pedobear, cannot stop. The veil is beginning to be peeled back on Excelsior and Venkman and Neva and the rest of the JLU child harrassment ring as being some of the most detrimental bad actors in Second Life. Currently they are at war with about 2000 people who want to kill them dead, some of which are parents of children that they went after and stalked in real life. Now that the pressure is being turned up pretty on them, the core group is turning viscous and they think that they can somehow redeem themselves in other people’s eyes by acting like worse shits than they have so far. The best thing that Linden Labs could possibly do is Ban Prok, Ban Kalel and Ban GLE, that would take out the core of the pedophile ring and make SL a good deal safer for everyone.
Senban Babii
Sep 21st, 2011
@GLE
“So who authorized you to be the detective conducting the JLU investigation? Show me your badge and your ID card and then the interrogation can continue. Otherwise you are just a busybody trying to stick your nose into someone else’s business where it doesn’t belong.”
Ooh hark at her!
My authorisation comes from the fact you people decided to list me in your wiki. It’s my business because YOU made it my business. You drew first blood cupcake.
And interestingly, I’m not conducting any investigation, merely commenting upon it and supporting it. (note my avatar, please AR me for defamation at your convenience).
But nice spindoctoring there GLE!
Oh yes, there was also this, even thought it wasn’t addressed to me.
“No one, including JLU, needs permission to do a Google search. Whether the information is maintained on Google’s target website or on a file somewhere else makes no difference. Who appointed you as the Search Police to review other groups and demand explanations?”
See this is a red herring or whatever that argument type is. Because you’re NOT simply storing data. You are adding your own commentary for a start and then you are using that data plus commentary to influence the actions of others and to extend your actions into meatspace. So your argument that you are merely storing data doesn’t hold water because it is not *all* you are doing.
But again, nice spindoctoring there GLE
Sep 21st, 2011
YellowLantern, this is my SL name. But since you seem to need everything spelled out for you, I am the NonBreakingSpace. You may call me
Who said anything about hurting you anyway? I’m just trying to get you to show your true colors!
Senban Babii
Sep 21st, 2011
@GLE
Can you please explain why you expect fair treatment on blogs and forums outside of your control and yet you stifle and censor free speech and reasonable questions on those you own or have influence over?
That’s a reasonable question I believe and reasonable people would provide a reasonable answer. Feel free to avoid answering the question per your usual modus operandi but failure to do so would speak volumes in itself.
GG3
Sep 21st, 2011
Honestly you believe everyone to be stupid and fall for your gimmicks, JLU?
We have seen your face. We know what you are. The truth is out, the truth can no longer be suppressed.
Get off your ego-ridden high-chairs and smell the coffee. No one likes this crap. You have over-step your boundaries for the longest and customers are SICK of signing into Second-Life for a bunch of idiots using the platform to play fake cop and stalk others. That includes extending into real-life information and degrading the enjoyment of SL to suit a group’s fanatical fantasies as a whole.
No one had “consent” to be placed in your wiki’s. No one gave “consent” to have their pictures, real life information, phone numbers, medical information (including those of minors) and location filed in your instable and insecure wiki. No one gave permission for your palsies and cultie buddies to share that private information within your “group”.
This group has violated so many real-life laws it’s unbelievable. Fool’s that play with fire.