Understanding the “Little Hitlers” of Second Life
by Pixeleen Mistral on 24/10/11 at 1:50 am
I’ve long wondered at the connection between Second Life’s endless supply of over-the-top drama and the strange psychology of certain players -- particularly those seriously invested in “defending” Linden Lab and “policing” the Second Life grid.
What is it about Second Life that attracts and retains obsessive-compulsive meta-gamerz who can’t keep their play inside the game?
Do large land tier payments to the Lab trump civil discourse even when Lab staff are swept up in an ugly cycle of Twitter/Google bombing payback as we saw with the LabRatuOut mess? After a concerted effort to attract the Lab’s attention to the recent excesses of the Justice League Unlimited, some of my friends in The Pink Hands faction are getting a bit cynical.
the Pink Hands faction is becoming cynical about Linden Lab
The golden rule seems to be in effect - those spending the virtual gold, rule. Perhaps Rod Humble is just hoping he can finish his new not-SL mobile-device-enabled game before the house of cards falls.
Meanwhile, consider notoriously toxic trolls such as Jumpman Lane, Kalel Venkman’s Justice League Unlimited vigilantes, or Prokofy Neva -- and the level of effort required to spend years tracking and data-mining other players or mounting an endless series of intensive blog, Twitter, and Google bombing campaigns designed to humiliate and destroy enemies.
Forgiveness and redemption seem to be alien concepts for some trolls upstanding Second Life residents, which implies a deep psychological need is being addressed. What exactly is going on?
A recent article in The Economist describing how “quite ordinary people will succumb to bad behaviour if the circumstances are right” may hold some answers.
According to the article, Nathanael Fast of the University of Southern California and colleagues at Northwestern and Stanford universities ran a series of experiments to see if social circumstances around power and status have the potential to create “little Hitlers” who annoy and frustrate others for their own gratification - or are certain individuals predisposed to this sort of behaviour simply gravitating into situations where they can behave badly?
The experiments randomly placed participants into one of 4 groups: high power/high status, low power/low status, low power/high status, and high power/low status. Participants were given the option of forcing other participants to perform humiliating actions -- or not.
Those in the low status/high power group chose significantly more demeaning tasks to impose onto other participants, while those in the other 3 groups did not exhibit this behaviour.
Does this mean that the more extreme guardians of Second Life feel they are in a position of low status in real life and are compensating by harassing and humiliating those within their reach?
If, as the study suggests, the combination of low status and high power is a recipe for trouble, I am beginning to think the celebrated free social media tools which empower those dedicated to cultivating their Internet notoriety may contain the seeds of their own destruction as the "little Hitlers" of the social media use their online power to trash everyone else.
Do you still want to play Web 2.0 after watching Jumpman Lane’s Twitter assault on Stroker Serpentine, LabRatuOut’s assault on Esbee Linden, or after following Prokofy Neva’s carefully crafted Google bombing attacks on all and sundry? How do you feel after learning that Kalel Venkman is still expanding and unsuccessfully attempting to secure his Brainiac wiki data mine?
Is this the sort of game you want to play?
Senban Babii
Dec 28th, 2011
Hehe I did promise myself not to get involved in SL anymore but as it’s a personal message, well alright <3
"And finish school, for goodness sake. No enrolling for three more degrees this year!"
Oops too late, already signed up for next year's studies love, with a big focus on artificial intelligence again. The way I figure it natural intelligence is as dumb as a bocks of rocks so I reckon AI has to be worth a shot
Although why that bloody travelling salesman can't just buy a map and get on with it I'll never know XD
No more asteroid belts for this Babii either, I left EVE a while ago. It was time for me to get a grip of my life and get back to school so I moved to San Paro to stay with my older sister, Revolution Babii. It's a rough neighbourhood but Rev's a tough girl even if she can't shoot straight (don't tell her I said that!) and she'll keep the streets safe. Probably by locking me in a cupboard and taping the door shut
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whenitchanged/6587354681/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whenitchanged/6587354525/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/whenitchanged/6587390533/
Hyooooj hugs and best wishes for next year and every year forever to you too love and I suppose I'd better wish everyone else an excellent 2012 while I'm at it <3
/me grins, swishes her tail and………poofs before Rev gets home and finds me using her laptop!
paul
Dec 31st, 2011
Hi folks, hope you have all been enjoying yourself. I haven’t been keeping up with the thread, although I am wondering what the big deal is about how I use capitals??? anyways, I read this, and it reminded me of this thread:
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/30/144384533/haters-are-going-to-hate-this-story
this part particularly made me think of Tux:
“What is their point? “Haters want to be feared and heard,” says Brian Britt, a professor of religious studies at Virginia Tech University who studies the evolution of hate. “Their use of outrageous behaviors is designed strategically to get attention”
happy holidays everyone!
Bunjie
Dec 31st, 2011
@paul
You either forgot the last bit or you strategically cut it off to get attention to make a point? oh hypocrite where art thou!
So let me give YOU some attention and straddle your stereotype:
“They violate norms of ‘niceness’ and civil behavior in order to make a point.”
At least you was so thoughtful to include the source so we can check these facts out ourselves, D.E.R.P.
I guess it didn’t fit your narrative that some people do have a point that sometimes goes contrary to yours, view points that you just won’t listen to or acknowledge existence thereof but you’ll prefer to label and or ignore them until the person has no choice but to become a true or parody of a stereotypical “hater” in order to express a point?
But essentially TUX has a right to hate something as we all do aka we all hate things we don’t like, we hate how Linden Lab deals with us or our friends and residents we don’t know who are treated badly, stalked or pushed into a corner, we all have a right to “hate” that treatment?
But you’re trying to call Tux just another “hater” implying hes expressing himself without reason other than “circle” feeding an anti-social addiction, where as everyone else here bar a few like you have acknowledged that he did have a point as many here do.
And if you’d have gotten to know him like the JLU should have done with a clear head that’s not stuck up your own ass then I’m sure you’d understand his basis of first hand observational truth born from a parodistic work of fact that mocks residents like you who support the JLU.
As you know the JLU don’t like TUX and that’s only because he tells us exactly how dumb they are, and that’s evident by his published chat logs where they’ve been engaged in conversation for all of 2mins or less.
Perhaps if you’d have spent 2 mins or more not “circle branding residents” on here but active in world with someone or a group of true individuals that “break your norms”, you’ll realize that being stuck up is not all it’s cracked up to be and not being stuck up your own ass is actually more socially beneficial than being like the JLU, that spend years stalking residents and falsely labeling them until they’ve only one option left, to act out the stereotype they’ve been boxed into as a live action parody in order to get you to shut the fuck up.
If I am what you say I am, where’s the argument? you’d merely have to prove I committed a crime, the JLU have faked crimes to remove residents that might have been acting only in that context as they’re mocking them and not actually committing any crimes.
hobo kelly
Jan 1st, 2012
feed your kitties Crazy Cat Lady wherever you are
/year
pebbles
Jan 2nd, 2012
uhm. get a first life?! but keep on pretending that game is important. hahahaha.
Reader
Jan 3rd, 2012
@Bunjie
Cry much?
James Doe
Jan 4th, 2012
@Bunjie,
you are so amusing.
Go on and look at all these members of the wrong hands please and their alts on second life. You will see they hate the JLU just as much as the JLU hates them.
The go out of their way to make comments like the JLU hates me. The GLE fan club group. You may hate the JLU which is fine but don’t pretend Tux and the others are the good guys in all this. Because they aren’t.
Look at all the support the Anti-JLU forums lost when you have other people Docing others left and right in forums, you kind of loose your argument on that the JLU is docing people.
I actually find some of the Krypton Radio reviews on the comic book industry good reads they aren’t all about Second Life Stalking like many people would have you believe. You say that the JLU should get to know Tux well it could go the other way as well couldn’t it?
IntLibber Brautigan
Jan 5th, 2012
James Doe, it is so sad that you continue to reiterate your tired propaganda here, three months after this article went to press. I suppose I shall reiterate what’s been said so many times before: Virtually none of TWH members just decided to start griefing in a vacuum. In all, or almost all cases, they were first treated to the injustice of the ban hammer by some fascist pig somewhere, either a furry, or the JLU in the sandboxes. Rebels are not born, they are created by the regimes that oppress them, by the maltreatment of them by ignorant individuals (and I readily admit I was once one of those ignorant individuals, but I learned, and became informed). For my enlightenment, I was cast down from the heaven of FICishness with the Linden angels singing the praises of the Tao. We the condemned, the damned avatars, shall bring this world to an end and raise up a new one in its place that shall be free of the theocracy of the Linden Tao, that shall shine in transparent openness of resident run constitutionally limited self governance and due process. Give us your tired, your poor wretched avatars, yearning to breath free of the shackles imposed upon them by the game gods themselves. I shall be a light unto the people and shall lead them out of the land of pharoh in a grand exodus, and into the promised land.
James Doe
Jan 5th, 2012
Intlibber,
We may call you Joseph Goebbels as well then since you seem to keep up the same propaganda defending the Banned people who can’t seem to let go of second life even though they claim they hate it so much.
James Doe
Jan 5th, 2012
@ Intlibber
If you dislike SL so much why not go to some other game or Virtual world and leave those of us alone who have no issue with Second Life and Linden labs.
Oh and take your political speech someplace else.
I own a sim and guess what, Its my rules not yours. So if I desire to ban someone because they are jerks then guess what I can do that. Just like irl I own a home and I can put signs up and have every right to kick people off my land.
These people are not made because they were kicked or banned its because they can’t let things go. If they were banned or ejected they should have just moved to someplace else they were accepted at. Their “egos” wouldn’t let them do that now would it?
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 5th, 2012
@ James Doe
“You say that the JLU should get to know Tux well it could go the other way as well couldn’t it?”
Actually, Tux DID try to get to know GLE of the JLU, and was rewarded by GLE passing information back to the JLU on Tux’s kids, including their names and ages, to be recorded in their wiki.
Nice eh?
“…since you seem to keep up the same propaganda defending the Banned people who can’t seem to let go of second life even though they claim they hate it so much.”
I myself, have never suffered a ban.and have never knowingly committed an offence against TOS with any avatar, yet the JLU would have you believe I am a Devil Incarnate.
I am not aware of any member of TWH ever saying they hated SL so you are again just creating stupid arguments out of thin air.
You are quite right that your rules within your own sim are inviolate, and it is your right to enforce them. No one has ever questioned that. However, your rules stay in your own sim, and do not follow you out of it. Something your child stalking friends at the JLU seem to conveniently forget.
Emperor Norton
Jan 5th, 2012
Dontspill McGinnis @ “Actually, Tux DID try to get to know GLE of the JLU, and was rewarded by GLE passing information back to the JLU on Tux’s kids, including their names and ages, to be recorded in their wiki.
Nice eh?”
Yes, Tux is quite the idiot, don’t you think? Sharing real life information with internet enemies.
Of course we won’t point out the irony that it was Tux’s Wrong Hands “friends” who have now seen to it that all that personal information on Tux’s family is now around the entire internet. Because the JLU was just so wrong for keeping it private.
Boy howdy, Tux sure knows how to pick his friends.
hobo kelly
Jan 5th, 2012
ok Mischief Makers, happy new year! A new year with new possibilities. Time to get back to work on kickin that grid over the cliff. Say, I hear that The Wrong Hands are coming back strong this year with new operations and new collaborations. I’m still trying to determine if I’m alive this new year and don’t have a lot of time to find the absolute best cartoon for this morning, but this one ain’t bad…
So come on along Mischief Makers, lets watch Tux Winkler and Darling Brody dance the dance of endless pie… yum !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUKFKvD1Kk4
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 5th, 2012
@ Emperor Norton
I agree, that it was somewhat foolish of Tux to believe that the snake GLE could be trusted, but he did.
I’m sure that Tux would want others to learn from his mistake, so its very thoughtful of you to highlight it, “Emporer Norton”.
Remember everyone, as “Emporer Norton” points out, never ever trust a member of the JLU. They will try take any information they can find and dox you in an unsecured wikki, available initially to an unknown number of other untrustworthy people Ultimately, these “security experts” will not be able to protect their wikki, so please be prepared to have your children’s names and ages (and address if they manage to find it…….) spread across the Internet.
As you well know “Emperor Norton” TWH wasn’t behind this leak. Anything to gloss over the fact that the JLU were hoarding this kind of information is okay by you I guess.
It does beg the question though, why would the JLU want to keep records on other people’s children, and exactly what kind of people are in this shadow organisation that like to dress as children’s idols.
I wonder what sort of background checks the JLU do on their membership, if any, before granting them access to this pool of information?
Tux
Jan 5th, 2012
I would just like to point out I don’t view anyone as an enemy. Also, I released the page the JLU had on me to the public to demonstrate, as I was one of the more recent entries, exactly what they was doing.
But while everything appears to have all blown over, this article and its comments keep surfacing. 2012 is going to be an interesting year, had I decided to keep my blog I would have made some predictions, but I decided against it. Best not let things slip.
I guess the best I can is is offer you this:
‘Look to the skies!’
- Coined by Tux Winkler 2010
- Appropriated by the JLU 2011 (without open acknowledgement)
James Doe
Jan 5th, 2012
Wow Tux
So you wrote the song “Look to the skies”
You wrote the book Look to the skies
You wrote for all those New Papers and wrote for the “Outer Limits” T.V. show?
Look to the skies isn’t something you Coined sorry to hurt you ego but the term has been used around the world by many many people before the Internet came about.
CheerGirl Allen
Jan 5th, 2012
about time for a reminder
BEWARE OF THE PINK HANDS!
:-p
GG3
Jan 6th, 2012
Don’t be surprise if the JLU are continuing their stalk-operations.
As far as I’m concern, any furry-group or sim-owner willingly associated with the JLU starting in 2012 are assisting in their stalking-behavior.
The internet is watching the JLU.
Reader
Jan 6th, 2012
*yawning*
Tux
Jan 7th, 2012
Sorry JD let me fix it for you (and anyone else not smart enough to see the sarcasm tucked in there):
‘Look to the skies!’
- Coined by Tux Winkler 2010 inSL (<– logo here)
- Appropriated by the JLU 2011 (without open acknowledgement)
Whilst many people claim copyright in Second Life for things they have created, and copied from the real world.
Fact remains it would never have been used had I not forced it under the JLU's noses. Left to them they would probably have invented the saying 'up n at em' or 'go getem' or something equally as lame.
So old friend, with Christmas and the New Year now over, are you ready to go toe to toe or you going to hang up your hat? XD
Vince Braver
Jan 10th, 2012
I cant believe you people still relate to this shit pile of a game.
Adam
Jan 12th, 2012
VINCE!!! Long time no see. Contact me in world
hobo kelly
Jan 12th, 2012
OMG, its VINCIE !!! goddamed shitzgonnagetreal now that Vince is here.
Paul
Jan 12th, 2012
omg @ intlibber trying to sound intellectual. “rebels are not born” lmaoooooooooooo
Tux, you are a bad ass no doubt. 2012 is going to be the year of the Tux. Look to the Skies! /me cues ominous music.
Tux
Jan 12th, 2012
@Paul
‘Tux, you are a bad ass no doubt.’
PMSL
’2012 is going to be the year of the Tux.’
I seriously doubt it. Unless someone does an impersonation job. I use another name now.
‘Look to the Skies! /me cues ominous music.’
/me sighs!
Seriously though, it looks like the harmony of SL has returned. I hope everyone enjoys their fantasy (while it lasts).
James Doe
Jan 13th, 2012
@ The Tux who doesn’t use the name Tux anymore:
My SL harmony has always been around. So It will last for some time because I don’t need to deal with the Wrong Hand Idiots and the Pink Hand Bimbos or the JLU. Don’t have to deal with the Jumpman langs or the I am the center of the universe Nightshade.
See you all seem to forget SL is a big world many people and many places that are not touched by those groups and peoples Drama’s. Jerks Like you and your Wrong Hand Idiots, JN, and the Jumpmans of SL.
Tux
Jan 13th, 2012
JD, calm down little fella. It’s Ok, we understand how you feel your entire existence is pointless. How your minuscule IQ makes you feel like the kid who rocked back and forth on his chair in high school. We don’t even mind you coming into our room and stamping your feet occasionally.
But you are going way to far calling Second Life a world!
And not being touched? Is that what your problem is? Are you not getting touched? It’s Ok you know, you are not alone. But you should also be aware many users have been affected without their knowledge.
So don’t feel bad. Try going out your door one step at a time. It may take days, weeks or even years, but one day you will meet another real person. And maybe, just maybe, they will also long to be touched.
Best of luck with that!
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 13th, 2012
@ James Doe.
I notice you spared the JLU from an insulting addendum. Perhaps you secretly admire men in tights.
You seem to suggest that you dislike all of the factions and people you mentioned and the drama that goes with them, yet you have helped to keep this thread going for a Herald record number of posts.
I love the smell of hippocracy, don’t you?
James Doe
Jan 13th, 2012
You Tux are an amusing little man.
I hope that you trying to insult me or say that i have no life makes you feel special.
Because apparently you get much joy out of trying to make fun of people you have no clue about..
Again as i have said it many times the JLU has done nothing different than the crowd of people over at the SLU forums who love to Doc people they disagree with. They love trying to find out who they think people are.
James Doe
Jan 13th, 2012
Don’t spill,
I never have claimed to be someone with out Drama have I?
I don’t stand on a soap box and declare that I am Innocent like many of you.
So I have no hippocracy .
I actually do enjoy reading comic books. Does that make me one of the JLU groupies in your eyes I am sure it does.
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 13th, 2012
@ James D’oh
It doesn’t surprise me at all that you don’t see your own hippocracy. You have proven in these pages to also be blind to reason, intelligence, common sense and normal decency.
You cant keep away from that which you claim to dislike. There is the hippocracy. You are drawn to these pages like a moth to the candle and display just about as much intelligence.
I have never laid claim to innocence. I’m a Dwarf of the world.
What I have laid claim to is a lack of guilt. I wouldn’t mind a soap box though, if you have one spare, It might come in handy.
Reading comics is one thing, supporting a gang of role play superheroes, who maliciously slander other players, and who harvest personal data and compile masses of real life data and conjecture on other SL player’s AND THEIR CHILDREN for reasons of coercion is entirely another.
James Doe
Jan 13th, 2012
@ Dontspill
Kettle calling the pot Black huh.
I have never supported the JLU you seem to keep assuming I do support the Docing they do.
Since you can’t get it into your thick skull that many people are doing the same crap the JLU does.
Go over to the SLU forums and you will see the Docing of real life info compiled by the mass of people their on others they don’t like.
Some of the Wrong Hands members are involved in this Docing as well.
I also see your a moth to this Drama flame too or you wouldn’t be responding either.
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 13th, 2012
@ James Doe
Sorry James, I don’t spend much time in the kitchen.
I am no moth, I am an active protagonist. Lets not forget that I have been slandered by the JLU wiki. The funny thing is, that you may have been too, but don’t know it.
Yes you have been supporting the JLU, You have been so doing throughout this thread. Just read back a few pages. Please don’t assume others are as stupid as yourself.
I see you are accepting the fact that the JLU are doxing people’s real lives, yet you still try to dismiss it as trivial because others have done so too.
The thing is, that others may well have done so, but never in such detail or scope as has been proven, the JLU do. I’m not aware that others have called people places of work or education as the JLU have been proven to do either.
Lets also not forget that no-one else so engaged has had the temerity to pretend to be upholding ToS and to be defending SL residents.
Incidentally, the JLU wikki is a matter of record and extracts from it have been publicly verified by GreenLantern Excelcior. That’s called evidence.
Here say isn’t evidence. Just because your delusional friends in the JLU say that members of the TWH have been doxing too, doesn’t make it so. That’s just the JLU desperately trying to muddy the water, as usual.
As their wikki shows, they are quite adept at “Black Ops”.
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
@Spill
You repeat yourself like a blithering idiot. Work on that as it doesn’t do a bit of good “for the cause” other than to make you look like a drooling fool with a repetitivie deficit disorder. A sound argument and strong case you never make.
Oh and while I am at it, Shut Up Mies!
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 13th, 2012
@ Reader
There is nothing wrong with repetition of the facts when you and your allies constantly try to smother them.
I, at least, can present the same sad facts time and again with some originality, and make each version entertaining. You on the other hand, are dull, boring and unoriginal.
Anyway, I have to keep repeating the facts of the case because our learned friend James, seems to have difficulty retaining information. He can’t even recall what he wrote on the last page it seems.
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
@Spill
you present the same facts because now you are part of an elaborate and seemingly autistic display of impotence. do yourself a favor and update your profile and remove this as it lacks any relevance:
Information they don’t want you to know!
http://www.sl4.me/
better yet, explain where sl4.me went and why, explain (to yourself) how come the SLU brigade is virtually silent and why what was so SO important to so SO many occupy-stupid-blog goers has now simply turned to useless mush.
the back story to all of this is hella funny! even funnier is your insistance on repeating the same old boring truths, that only a
select group ignore because they have moved on to “That” and the remaining few that aren’t even aware, which translates = “couldn’t care less”, don’t have the foggiest nor the time. whip up your many alter-egos Mies and hit the blog channels with more repetitive drivel spread over that deep pocket of commentor names you cling to. you like reading about yourself more than anyone anyhow, which isn’t hard to do because, because if you haven’t quite noticed, this whole enchilada went spoiled over 3 months ago and the elites with any common sense figured it all out. and laughed at you
so with that said buddy,
STFU Mies
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
*abridged edtion*
@Spill
end game much?
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 13th, 2012
@ Reader
You really should try to breathe between sentences, that way we might make some sense of your incoherent, raging rants.
I suppose I should be flattered but under the circumstances, i just feel creeped out that you of all people have been reading my profile. You will have been dissapointed that there are no clues as to my real life in it though, Never mind. Its not like you haven’t read it many times before, is it?
And I find it fascinating that you think I am lots of different people. Its like some kind of neurosis projection. I assure you I write only under this name. I can think of one person who writes under lots of different names though. I wrote a piece about it for SL4.ME when it existed. It was an equally neurotic member of the JLU, Vagabond Carter, who used the same IP to log comments under his own, and other ID’s.
He used to use the same ID’s to comment on his own pieces on Krypton Radio too, to make it look like people actually read the garbage he penned. LOL.
Actually the link is still in my profile because it is part of my SL History. I wrote quite a few pieces you may recall, one or two of which caused a bit of a stir over on Justice Island, and elsewhere.
As to what happened to SL4.ME, You’ll have to ask Tux. He closed it down for his own reasons, I just wrote occasionally.
As for an end game, if you play chess like you write, I have nothing to fear.
Tux
Jan 13th, 2012
@ Reader
‘better yet, explain where sl4.me went and why’
How on earth can he explain that? Why so upset about it. Its only a domain name. I own it, and have parked it a domain pool atm. The reason, well I completed what I had planned for it. You see, unlike other people who get all pissy over a URL, I buy them up, use them for random things then park them. No big deal.
Perhaps one day I’ll find another use for it, until then it will remain parked.
That said however I would love to hear your invented theories behind its use, and its subsequent removal. I am sure they will prove most entertaining.
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
“I buy them up, use them for random things then park them. No big deal”
doesn’t Dan Peleg do that too?
shut up Mies
Tux
Jan 13th, 2012
Oh Dan, yeah that is right, omg you are so right. Nail on the head and all that.
Just two things though? Who is Dan Peleg? And what is Mies?
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
the funny thing about the internets is that people tend to forget that the woven web has a concentric pattern and all web paths ultimately lead back to the center of attention.
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
h t t p :/ / pastebin dot com/ FfZryWZu
names like mies, muziekfreak1980, dan, dan peleg, raine and whatnot are names you and Rob Nelson are not unfamiliar with
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
?
Tux
Jan 13th, 2012
Something is obviously upsetting you, contact me in SL and I’ll pay you a few L$.
That way you can pay someone to give a shit.
I for one find your whinging quite boring.
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 13th, 2012
Oh dear,
Looks like Reader has finally lost it.
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
oh really?!?!?
Reader
Jan 13th, 2012
where’s hobo when you need him?
Dontspill McGinnis
Jan 14th, 2012
I’m sorry, That was low, even for a Dwarf.
I should have quantified that with an “again”.
LOL
Jan 14th, 2012
@Kalel Venkman
How many women inthe real worl now have filed restraining orders against you?