Understanding the “Little Hitlers” of Second Life
by Pixeleen Mistral on 24/10/11 at 1:50 am
I’ve long wondered at the connection between Second Life’s endless supply of over-the-top drama and the strange psychology of certain players -- particularly those seriously invested in “defending” Linden Lab and “policing” the Second Life grid.
What is it about Second Life that attracts and retains obsessive-compulsive meta-gamerz who can’t keep their play inside the game?
Do large land tier payments to the Lab trump civil discourse even when Lab staff are swept up in an ugly cycle of Twitter/Google bombing payback as we saw with the LabRatuOut mess? After a concerted effort to attract the Lab’s attention to the recent excesses of the Justice League Unlimited, some of my friends in The Pink Hands faction are getting a bit cynical.
the Pink Hands faction is becoming cynical about Linden Lab
The golden rule seems to be in effect - those spending the virtual gold, rule. Perhaps Rod Humble is just hoping he can finish his new not-SL mobile-device-enabled game before the house of cards falls.
Meanwhile, consider notoriously toxic trolls such as Jumpman Lane, Kalel Venkman’s Justice League Unlimited vigilantes, or Prokofy Neva -- and the level of effort required to spend years tracking and data-mining other players or mounting an endless series of intensive blog, Twitter, and Google bombing campaigns designed to humiliate and destroy enemies.
Forgiveness and redemption seem to be alien concepts for some trolls upstanding Second Life residents, which implies a deep psychological need is being addressed. What exactly is going on?
A recent article in The Economist describing how “quite ordinary people will succumb to bad behaviour if the circumstances are right” may hold some answers.
According to the article, Nathanael Fast of the University of Southern California and colleagues at Northwestern and Stanford universities ran a series of experiments to see if social circumstances around power and status have the potential to create “little Hitlers” who annoy and frustrate others for their own gratification - or are certain individuals predisposed to this sort of behaviour simply gravitating into situations where they can behave badly?
The experiments randomly placed participants into one of 4 groups: high power/high status, low power/low status, low power/high status, and high power/low status. Participants were given the option of forcing other participants to perform humiliating actions -- or not.
Those in the low status/high power group chose significantly more demeaning tasks to impose onto other participants, while those in the other 3 groups did not exhibit this behaviour.
Does this mean that the more extreme guardians of Second Life feel they are in a position of low status in real life and are compensating by harassing and humiliating those within their reach?
If, as the study suggests, the combination of low status and high power is a recipe for trouble, I am beginning to think the celebrated free social media tools which empower those dedicated to cultivating their Internet notoriety may contain the seeds of their own destruction as the "little Hitlers" of the social media use their online power to trash everyone else.
Do you still want to play Web 2.0 after watching Jumpman Lane’s Twitter assault on Stroker Serpentine, LabRatuOut’s assault on Esbee Linden, or after following Prokofy Neva’s carefully crafted Google bombing attacks on all and sundry? How do you feel after learning that Kalel Venkman is still expanding and unsuccessfully attempting to secure his Brainiac wiki data mine?
Is this the sort of game you want to play?
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Then you get Joshua saying that his boyfriends business in the open Sims will not stand for what the spandex brigade does. Well duh of course not cause Joshua is the one doing what the Spandex Brigade does over in the open sims and in the slu forum. But he will say a little birdie tells him the information, Oh yea these little “cough” birdies just happen to tell him specific information on people. Or how he gets photos from some unknown person over the years when he wants to harass people. What a load of crap.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
@Paul
Thank you well said.
Sorry for all the posts but the php isn’t liking my wall of text
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
@ JD
’3rd account huh? I am still on my first account from 2005. Guess your doing something wrong.’
Or not, I chose when the previous two accounts was done. Stagnating in the same role, IMO, is quite boring. Starting over is very refreshing. Evolution is key to progression.
‘Oh Tux real superheros aren’t real you do know that right?’
Actually it is down to definition. ‘Superheroes’ are real, they are the ones who go beyond the call of duty to help and save others. They don’t need super powers. You do not see them sneaking about under an alias spying on those who share a resemblance to the childhood bullies.
@ JD & paul
Senban is right: No one pays to play. People pay for extra services. This is by choice. You choose to own land, clothing, weapons etc. But you do not pay to play.
As for what you do and don’t do, and what you expect, well you have to remember the world (both real and virtual) is comprised of individuals. Your expectations are like expecting a square peg to fit a round hole. Everyone is different. That said, had I griefed at the scifi convention, I would no doubt have been ejected. I didn’t and I wasn’t. But you would have thought a group such as the JLU, who’s primary role is anti griefing, would have made sure they couldn’t be griefed. But no, either they are not very good at their self appointed role, or they deliberately left that ability in place to entice their victims into reacting.
Senban Babii
Oct 26th, 2011
@Paul
“I pay money to play second life.”
No, you don’t. You pay money to have extra privileges and toys. This does not grant you special status, expectation or responsibility.
“My “expectation” is that other residents of SL, whether they are paying or not paying, will treat me with the same courtesy that I try to treat them.”
Yes, because that’s exactly how the world works, right?
@James Doe
“So basically you are saying all you like to do is talk about second life now but not login inworld, so just looking for the drama of it?”
No, not for the drama. The same reason I find SL interesting, the same reason I find EVE interesting, the same reason I’m currently poking MW2 with a stick, the same reason…well you get the idea. SL used to be something I was personally involved in. Now I find it academically interesting as part of the wider picture of my current field of study.
“You’re telling me you accept Kalel’s statement on how many has been tracked as fact but nothing else he says.”
Did I say that? No, so please don’t put words in my mouth.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
@Senban
No i didn’t put the words in your mouth. You said someone gave the number of people tracked on the slu forums. That number was said to have come from Kalel. Either you accept that number or you don’t. If you do then my statement stands. If you don’t then let me have a number that is backed up with facts not speculations or from Kalel.
But no one seems to be able to supply this number.
@Tux if you didn’t grief the sim you didn’t. So their was no reason to ban you. So obviously you logic that the Heroes are out to get you is false. If they were then they would have gotten you banned then they would have made something up according to all your logic.
Since Anthony is pretty close to the JLU group now.
The pay to play is just semantics. Some people do consider paying 1,000 dollars for a sim and 300 a week paying to play in the rp sim they created. Some people see it the other way its a stupid argument.
And your avoiding the comment of moving someones prims which are not yours 4,000 meters up is considered griefing just like orbiting someone or caging them. Your doing it to provoke a reaction. That is what Robble did. He purposely harassed one group of people.
But please spin it how you can it is still griefing.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
“My “expectation” is that other residents of SL, whether they are paying or not paying, will treat me with the same courtesy that I try to treat them.”
Yes, because that’s exactly how the world works, right?”
Obviously not since Robble can go in and send someones prims up to 4,000 meters, just for the ha ha of it. Isn’t that not treating some one with respect? I am sure the argument will be but they don’t treat me with respect why should i them.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
Why would you assume that’s all I have to say? You were just screaming about me doing x, y and z at the con before in your first post “calling me out” I just felt it fair to clarify. Now James Doe let me tell you how many prims it was that I moved at the con that you now are sitting there churning out walls of text over. One prim, it was one single prim. You’ve been sitting here, churning out massive walls of text calling me every name under the sun, over one single prim.
There’s that whole timeline of events you are sitting here talking about. All of it happened after I was banned for moving that single prim. Guess what happened after I moved that prim? I stood around and bullshitted with GLE a bit, what a terrible awful crime against humanity it is to move a single prim, then stand around and bullshit. I’m clearly a threat to all of second life and humanity for this horrible act of moving a single prim.
So if you are someone who knows about both sides why are you sitting here hiding behind a pseudonym to protect your other pseudonym? If you really want people to listen to you why aren’t you revealing who these comments are coming from rather than hiding behind your second pseudonym?
Senban Babii
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
“No i didn’t put the words in your mouth. You said someone gave the number of people tracked on the slu forums. That number was said to have come from Kalel. Either you accept that number or you don’t.”
*sigh*
FWIW I don’t take *any* information I find on the internet as anything except words on an internet. But you asked for more information, I pointed you towards it. I said nothing about its provenance.
paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@Senban.
I don’t understand your argument. I pay for more server space, more prims, more space to play. That is my choice, SL is a business that sells this service, and sometimes I doubt the wisdom of spending money on it. Nonetheless, how is that the same as saying that I expect to have more status? And why does starting with the assumption that I will treat others with respect and that I should be treated with the same respect somehow mean I expect to be treated differently because I have more “status”?? I think it is just as immature for a griefer to bother a non paying customer as it is for a griefer to bother someone who owns a large estate. Please explain to me where in any of that you see me claiming any privlidge or status beyond the same basic manners and courtesy that I try to have myself?
If your answer is, “the world doesn’t work that way” , well, I am sorry you are so cynical. I am not. I do not believe that two ‘wrongs’ make a ‘right.’ Everyone is a jerk, so I will act like a jerk?
Griefers like tux or robble can justify their behavior by saying it is all a game, or appealing to some lofty ideal that they are challenging the hegemony of the gamegods or whatever, but in the end, they are acting like childish bullies. No different then the playground bully who ruins your child’s game to get attention. No amount of quoting famous authors or philosophers can change that fact.
Now, why people would feel so powerless in the first place that they would resort to such petty bullshit to feel something at someone else’s expense is an interesting social science question!
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Robble,
I think i have every right to have use the name James Doe on here. I am required to supply an e-mail address and i have done so.
I have used this name in second life, recall we can change our names. I called my self James Doe for a while. For all you know my name can be actually James Doe in real life. I will wait for the google searches
You back?
Again Robble I made a human error. shock I am human after all. I corrected my mistake and admitted i was in correct. But please try to discredit me some more. That is all your trying to do by bring that up.
So instead seems like you want to rage at me cause i use James Doe as a name and having miss typed about something. You starting to sound like Prok.
I don’t care how many prims you moved i don’t care if you were talking with or swapped spit with GLE as you moved them. Moving a prim that is not yours unless your the land owner can be considered griefing.
You could irl be the coolest guy in the world but in second life your just a person who wants to grief people or the jlu, just for your amusement you are in definition a little hitler as well.
Senban Babii
Oct 26th, 2011
@Paul
“I don’t understand your argument.”
Actually you do as I shall now prove.
“I pay for more server space, more prims, more space to play.”
The key word is “more” and you used it three times in one sentence. You’re saying it yourself so you *do* understand my argument. You pay to get extra privileges and extra toys. You do not pay to play.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
@Senban
Then I apologize for not understanding you pointing me to that location to look it up. I thought you accepted it as an accurate number.
Oh look Robble and Tux i made another mistake and i apologized for it. I must be a compulsive lier.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
I think you are lying about your claim to be affiliated with the sci fi con you made in your first post too. Could you please come clean or clarify?
paul
Oct 26th, 2011
LoL
Senban, so the difference is that I am paying to “play” with more prims and space as oppose to paying to just “play.” Ok sure, if that is a distinction that you think is necessary. But you still haven’t explained why you think that I am saying I have privilege or status when all I am saying is that it seems reasonable to expect all residents, paying or not, to treat each other with respect. Are you saying that because I decided to blow some money on server space in a stupid video game, that it is morally acceptable for people to randomly interfere with my enjoyment of that game? Or, are you saying, if I was a non-paying resident, it would not be ok, but because I am paying, it makes me a target?
Senban Babii
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
“Then I apologize for not understanding you pointing me to that location to look it up. I thought you accepted it as an accurate number.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6B92nPs8lg
Apology accepted James Doe
It’s a little easy to infer emotions, especially negative ones when conversing via an internet so please don’t think I’m shouty or snarky at any point. I’m actually quite enjoying this debate
Senban Babii
Oct 26th, 2011
@Paul
“Are you saying that because I decided to blow some money on server space in a stupid video game, that it is morally acceptable for people to randomly interfere with my enjoyment of that game?”
Morally acceptable?
No.
Socially and culturally inevitable?
Yes.
Exactly like the real world.
paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@ Senban…
And the ‘claiming status’ part of your argument? I still don’t get that.
Senban Babii
Oct 26th, 2011
@Paul
“And the ‘claiming status’ part of your argument? I still don’t get that.”
It’s simple really. There is a growing culture of entitlement amongst those who have paid LL for extra privileges in SL. They also frequently attempt to leverage the Lab by making the point that they pay extra money (which is possibly subjective at best) and so imply that the Lab should look after them better and give their opinions more weight than those customers with only basic accounts.
Ultimately paying money to LL for extra privileges is nothing more than buying a bunch of extra hats for your characters in Team Fortress 2. It can make your game more fun and interesting but it doesn’t allow you to demand more wins than someone who hasn’t bought any hats. That still comes down to your ability and that’s something you can’t buy over the counter. At the end of the day, all residents are equal.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
“@James Doe
I think you are lying about your claim to be affiliated with the sci fi con you made in your first post too. Could you please come clean or clarify?”
Robble So again you are saying I am lying? I am in the IFT con group, I belong to several role play groups Some participated at the IFT Scifi Cons. So i am affiliated with the con. I am also as in one of the Dr. Who groups. Sucks I know since all those groups are big
I have just said that you have in the most basic sense griefed a group of people at the con.
I guess i could speak to Anthony tonight to get more information about the griefing that happened at the con.
Why are you so desperate to figure out who i am?
So you can go play arm chair detective on me?
Or maybe the SLU mob, can help you out, go ask them to start doing their internet searches on me use their Google skills. And what ever other things you think will help you to discredit anything i say.
Instead of trying to discredit me you can’t have a honest debate? That is all this is. In the end nothing we all say here means anything. As Senban says
“it’s a little easy to infer emotions, especially negative ones when conversing via an internet so please don’t think I’m shouty or snarky at any point. I’m actually quite enjoying this debate ”
Senban sames go for me,
I am enjoying the debate as well.
I do sometimes mean to be snarky though only in a playful way. Not meant to be mean.
Hell I could be just playing devils advocate in all this and actually be a griefer as well.
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
@ JD
‘And your avoiding the comment of moving someones prims which are not yours 4,000 meters up is considered griefing just like orbiting someone or caging them. Your doing it to provoke a reaction. That is what Robble did. ‘
I am not avoiding it, your sentence here implicates me, then you say: That is what Robble did. As I didn’t move prims, or a single prim in this case, I feel the question/statement is not actually for me.
Although there are two major factors here. The first being the anti griefer group, that promises to protect residents, couldn’t secure their own build. And the second, Linden Lab’s design is flawed in allowing this activity. Are you saying because someone uses a feature of the platform then they are to blame for its poor design?
Obviously it is Ok to do this, because they JLU do it to place remote monitors. Prok does it to push Ann’s cars onto her land so she can AR them. I am sorry, but every platform evolves by those who push its boundaries. Just because you and your ilk prefer to stagnate, doesn’t mean everyone else has to. The issues come when people exploit the game environment, because they cannot separate SL from RL, to allow their harassment, stalking and delusions to become real.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Tux,
So you are saying that all this griefing is done to help improve second life?
Your giving me the I hacked the place to show them that they could be hacked speech so it makes it all ok?
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
No JD, I am saying SL isn’t a stagnant utopia. I really don’t know why griefing is done.
paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@senban
I get it now. Since you believe that people who pay money for server space in Second Life demand privilege, then you just assumed that I was making an argument invoking privilege, rather then actually reading what I said. Perfect.
I still don’t get the last part of your last post. What is the purpose of continuing to point out that ‘paying is like getting extra hats’. Clearly that is your opinion, and you already made that point. I don’t happen to agree with it, but that is o.k, it is not relevant to the larger discussion. I am glad, however, that you agree that people that capriciously interfere with the gameplay of other just for their own laughs are behaving badly. Therefore, we can agree that along with condemning the JLU for their intrusive and creepy behavior, we can also condemn the behavior of admitted griefers like Rubbie Rubble and Tux.
@Tux
Your arguments are awesome: “And the second, Linden Lab’s design is flawed in allowing this activity. Are you saying because someone uses a feature of the platform then they are to blame for its poor design?”
Another way to say this: “And the second, the Bank’s architect designed the vault without making the floor cement. Are you saying because a bank robber then digs a tunnel under the ground to rob the vault, they are to blame for it’s poor design?”
Once again, you are saying that “griefing is just part of the game” rather that the grasping bullying behavior that it really is. Just ask Senban, she will tell you that it is immoral behavior.
Reader
Oct 26th, 2011
Tux, you are one messed up individual. First it starts off as seeking clarity & justice for benefit of ALL Second Life citizens, then it reverts to just “playing a game” & “pushing boundaries”. Your a poor soul indeed. Not only that, but you doth ‘project’ too much:
“Just because you and your ilk prefer to stagnate, doesn’t mean everyone else has to. The issues come when people exploit the game environment, because they cannot separate SL from RL, to allow their harassment, stalking and delusions to become real.”
Mirror, mirror on-the-wall… was the second thing that came to mind following that first bit of ‘modified’ Shakespeare.
I truly feel sorry for your family, if in fact you DO have one. The reason I (and many other level headed people) wonder about that claim is because of your actions and your deeds. If you do have children and a spouse, they are certainly emotionally neglected. But perhaps they don’t miss you anyhow and that is why there is all of ‘this’ going on…
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux,
I don’t think anyone thinks Second Life is a utopia at least people that I communicate with regularly.
For any utopia to exist it can only have one person in it.
So your more saying that griefing is done much like robbing a bank or hacking. That it is shows the flaw in the designs of the areas so it can be improved on?
So one of the improvement to Second Life could be that the JLU will become sanctioned by Linden Labs to handle griefing.
Seems they do a good job at dealing with griefing.
So then on your logic Tux. Man is flawed we can be hurt and killed. we are bad design. So do we keep killing people till someone gets improved on? What stops us from this is our morals our humanity our right and wrong.
So basically in second life we can forget our morals and do what ever we want because the design of Second Life allows the flaw?
Does the fact that i have glass windows in my house allow you to break them and steal my stuff? Again a Flaw in the design of my home. Does it allow me to smash your car window hot wire your car and drive off and i can then go to the police well not my fault it was a bad design?
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
@ paul
Your analogy is spot on. How can the thief be blamed for the poor vault construction. However in your case the thief is engaging in illegal activity, in mine there is none.
Griefing is as yet undefined. You believe griefing is bullying. Once more it comes down to opinions and individuality. Please define griefing for us, a final all encompassing definition. Not one of those it’s Ok if I do this but not if you do it types. Explain it clearly for those like myself who perhaps are not so bright.
hobo kelly
Oct 26th, 2011
Wherever the pedophillic JLU go you know they are stalking the teens on the grid and there will be those who will stand up to stop them. If you see the JLU somewhere, leave the area immediately if you do not want to become collateral damage. That seems simple enough.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
I’d love to have an honest debate with you if you didn’t make your first post full of false accusations. As for your identity I don’t really care, I was just making sure you weren’t a Prokofy sockpuppet that shouldn’t be given the time of day it takes to argue with.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@Hobo
Wanna go out for a beer or somethin?
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
@ Reader
‘I truly feel sorry for your family, if in fact you DO have one.’
And here the fisherman seeks his catch. As the JLU’s unleakable leaky wiki confimed this already, I will not waste my time.
@ JD
‘So your more saying that griefing is done much like robbing a bank or hacking. That it is shows the flaw in the designs of the areas so it can be improved on?’
I said no such thing. I was talking about a game platform. Paul related it to a bank. I see a clear definition between SL & RL, it appears you three do not. And yes it would show the flaws.
‘So one of the improvement to Second Life could be that the JLU will become sanctioned by Linden Labs to handle griefing.’
That would be great because then they would have to remove the wiki and would be answerable to their actions. It’ll never happen.
‘Seems they do a good job at dealing with griefing.’
Clearly as the events at the scifi convention showed XD
‘So then on your logic Tux. Man is flawed we can be hurt and killed. we are bad design. So do we keep killing people till someone gets improved on? What stops us from this is our morals our humanity our right and wrong.’
Humanoids have many flaws, right? Just how many times have the JLU said they would kill people? I have never said it! Once again you fail to recognise the difference between a game and RL. It is Ok in a game, but some fail to see the difference. I do.
‘Does the fact that i have glass windows in my house allow you to break them and steal my stuff? Again a Flaw in the design of my home. Does it allow me to smash your car window hot wire your car and drive off and i can then go to the police well not my fault it was a bad design?’
Er RL/SL again?
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux
Stop being a fucking drama queen about the death threats. The most notable one happened years ago. Drop it, it’s not a good point to make. If you want something to use as some sort of rallying cry you would be much better off mentioning the JLU’s stalking and refusal to assist their ex member Nikola, something that resulted in an actual death. Someone reaching out for help then Kalel’s response of “your friends like me better than you”.
Paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux,
For some reason I keep coming back to what you must teach your own children. Do you teach them that if something is not illegal, it is alright to do even if it is immoral?
you ask for a definition of griefing. I believe you are being facetious, but nonetheless I will repeat what I have said before: Griefing is knowingly interfering with the gameplay of others for no other reason then getting a laugh at others’ expense or just to prove that you can get away with it. Once again consider your own children: they are playing a game full of child-like earnestness and imagination, a bully comes around and throws water all over them, then laughs at them for being “butthurt”, makes fun of them for daring to be earnest in their imagination and says “see? the owner left a flaw in the park design that did not prevent me from doing that..and it is NOT illegal! I am playing the game too!”
Paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux
It is also instructive how you continue to deny being a griefer (see the definition of griefing in the last post, if you are confused) and yet you continue to defend the concept in the abstract. It sure reinforces the impression that all your bans from SL were completely unjustified and that we should rally around your cause to have the JLU banned. You are just so.. so.. so.. credible! Now..tell me how you don’t care what I think.
Paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux and Senban
And then another part of your argument seems to be that the “world is cruel and unjust” therefore this kind of behavior is justified or somehow valuable. You are welcome to have that opinion, but then when you turn around and argue against the JLU on moral and legal grounds, you are being hypocritical. /me shrugs
Reader
Oct 26th, 2011
Truly pathetic Tux:
“As the JLU’s unleakable leaky wiki confimed this already, I will not waste my time.”
You waste (dedicate) such an inordinate amount of time on this whole dramafest, how can you honestly look yourself in the eyes (or anyone else for that matter) and tell yourself you are truly “time” conscious. “waste my time”…ROFL ! Oh wait, you DON”T have to look anyone else in the eyes to defend shit – because you live your life like a “tron” wannabee, finding relevance on “the grid”. This is ALL you have and it is clearly revealed by the amount of Web’d Mental illness you’ve registered on the web.
Hit the road jack(ass), you FAILED – - – repeatedly. The sooner you start to internalize that fact, accept it and move along, the better off you AND YOUR FAMILY will be.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Wow Robble,
Can’t let go of that mistake I made. I admitted to my error but you seem to keep missing that.
Really anyone who disagrees with you has to be a sock-puppet of Prok or the JLU. That is the best you have, I can’t wait to see Prok write up on this. LOL
Griefing is defined by linden labs in the TOS/CS.
It has always been a matter of perspective. You may sit their and move Robbles prims all day to annoy him and he may laugh at you and think its all funny.
But doing the same thing to another person they may not find it funny at all. So that’s where you are considered a griefer. Yes its a very politically correct area. But well its the world we live in now these days.
Again hobo decides to defame again, calling them pedophiles.
Oh but see Robble you think that’s OK because its against the spandex brigade. Yet their has been no evidence of them being pedophiles.
Tux,
I am confused as well. I agree with Reader with this statement.
“First it starts off as seeking clarity & justice for benefit of ALL Second Life citizens, then it reverts to just “playing a game” & “pushing boundaries”.
I was noticing how your discussion switched to that as well.
I have no idea what to make of it.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
“@Tux
Stop being a fucking drama queen about the death threats. The most notable one happened years ago. Drop it, it’s not a good point to make. If you want something to use as some sort of rallying cry you would be much better off mentioning the JLU’s stalking and refusal to assist their ex member Nikola, something that resulted in an actual death. Someone reaching out for help then Kalel’s response of “your friends like me better than you””
Robble,
Nikola’s you do not know what drove them to kill themselves. Not one of you know why they killed themselves. They could have been having a trouble home life we don’t know. And saying they were responsible is just as immoral, as their lack of sympathy for the person.
So stop bring that up as well.
It was terrible what happen to that person. Stop dragging the person name around to try to defend your cause. Its sick and pathetic.
Sorry I got a bit snippy on that but its like these 2 events seem to be everyone’s rallying cry.
When you have no idea why they really killed themselves.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
That mistake you made was my first impression of you, it sort of taints my ability to take anything you say with any seriousness, sorry!
Why are you expecting me to enter into a debate with someone who chooses to give no information about themselves besides the pseudonym of a pseudonym and an nebulous affiliation with a large group? It seems like you’re attempting to set yourself up in some unassailable position while lobbing accusations at me rather than actually debating me.
I kind of agree with Hobo, it seems like a majority of the people who the JLU stalks and hunts are teenagers. Now a group who’s median age is middle aged chasing after group’s who’s median ages are teenagers and twenty somethings and you can’t see anything creepy or pedophelic about it?
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
Actually I researched Nikola, there was a series of events. It’s a major dividing point of the characteristics of both the Woodbury and JLU groups.
First Nikola ran out of money to pay rent with, she went to her friends at the JLU for assistance, surely a group that is so proud of all their charitable causes that they brag endlessly on about would help one of their own in a time of need? Wrongggggggg, they ended up booting her from the group after refusing to help her.
Afterward, when Nikola again reaches out for help, Kalel in his infinite benevolence chooses that time to inform her that he has infiltrated the group she founded.
Take that in contrast to Tizzers Foxchase who has let a fair number of woodbury members surf on his couch until they were able to get back on their feet.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Like i said,
I have used James Doe in second life before. As well as other places on the web.
Question I thought on of the goals of “The Pink Hands” was to teach people how to be safe in second life?
So being a member of that group which you are. why are you trying to find out who i am in second life? Seems you would like to violate my right to privacy.
Guess it kinda puts the goal of The Pink Hands into question doesn’t it? Here I thought you were all for your right to privacy. Isn’t that what your yelling at the jlu about that they violate your second life privacy. You seem to be sending mixed singles to people.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
Who’s the one hammering on one point now?
You have already proven you aren’t some JLU member or Prokofy alt. So I stopped caring about who you are in SL.
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Robble,
I have many friends in second life and in real life.
I don’t hand them money. I don’t offer them help by crashing at my place unless it was a party I had and they are too drunk to drive.
Tizzers went to school at Woodbury, so he knows his friends in Woodbury. Not an apple to apple comparison I am afraid.
Obviously Nikola had issues with their family. Or they would have gone to them or maybe they felt they couldn’t I have no idea. I would have told Nikola to talk to his/her family. Don’t rely on a person you hardly know over the internet.
Sorry all the internet researching isn’t going to tell you why they killed themselves. Your still speculating.
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
@ Paul (do you really type your name in each time?)
‘For some reason I keep coming back to what you must teach your own children.’
My children are not your concern. I am not out shacking up with a fellow group member and known byte on the side at any time, let alone times that are historical family moments.
Your passage on griefing is ridiculous. You attempts to get to me through the use of my children are having no effect, try something new.
‘It sure reinforces the impression that all your bans from SL were completely unjustified and that we should rally around your cause to have the JLU banned’
Please explain ‘all my bans’. And my ’cause’ is not to have the JLU banned.
‘You are welcome to have that opinion, but then when you turn around and argue against the JLU on moral and legal grounds, you are being hypocritical’
Not true, the JLU are RL stalkers. They do harass people in RL. etc etc.
@ Reader
‘You waste (dedicate) such an inordinate amount of time on this whole dramafest, how can you honestly look yourself in the eyes (or anyone else for that matter) and tell yourself you are truly “time” conscious. ‘
You believe because I am able to post at different times of the day that I am dedicating time to this? When in reality I dedicate hours on projects I have and often keep a window open watching your responses for a break. I find this a perfectly acceptable distraction. I agree I am lucky to be in my situation, but it is one of my own creation, a reward if you like. I am free to exercise my time as I wish.
‘Hit the road jack(ass), you FAILED’
Wow, really, how have I failed?
@ JD
‘I am confused as well. I agree with Reader with this statement.
“First it starts off as seeking clarity & justice for benefit of ALL Second Life citizens, then it reverts to just “playing a game” & “pushing boundaries”.
I was noticing how your discussion switched to that as well.
I have no idea what to make of it.’
Firstly the term is residents (occasionally you may see me refer to them as resis if I am tired). I have never once said this is not a game. With the leaks I spoke out to raise awareness of the JLU and their actions. But it wasn’t some great thing I did for the residents. It was to make a point. The point was made.
That said, please keep on you provide a welcome comedic break for the overload of work I currently have.
Robble Rubble
Oct 26th, 2011
@James Doe
Actually it is an apples apples comparison because in the past Tizzers has taken in people he knew purely from second life. He gave them chances to work at the school, get an education and improve their lives. So yeah apples/apples. I can’t say that the JLU are the root cause of Nikola’s death but I can most definitely say that Kalel ignored their calls for help while mocking her. He’s such a hero!
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
And to expand on Robble’s point, if a TWH member was in need, the members that were able would rally together to help. It is what you do. If you can help in any way, you should.
Paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux
Calm down, fella, it is just a discussion!
“I am not out shacking up with a fellow group member and known byte on the side at any time, let alone times that are historical family moments.” <<< what on earth does this mean? I have no idea. It seems garbled and nonsensical. Or else you think I am someone I am not and you think I should understand it?
"Your passage on griefing is ridiculous"
In your opinion. You asked me my definition of griefing, and I gave it to you. It is my definition, it is what I work from. You are welcome to your own, but do you have any better criticism of mine then it is "ridiculous"? That is a criticism I would expect from Intlibber.
"Not true, the JLU are RL stalkers. They do harass people in RL. etc etc."
So? by your own stated logic, and Senbans, it is a Dog-Eat-Dog world, so if they can get away with it, what else should we expect that they will try to get away with it? Maybe like you, they are just playing a game and seeing what they can get away with.
"My children are not your concern" I agree. But I phrased it that way because I am fascinated by your argument: If you rob a bank it is not wrong because they failed to design the bank well enough not to be robbed. Do you really believe that? Do you act on that in the virtual world then turn around in your RL and preach that stealing and bullying is actually wrong? How do you reconcile the hypocrisy of making a legal and moral argument against the JLU while at the same time excusing moral transgressions of your own as 'playing a game'? As a parent myself, I am an intrigued about how you must explain this to children, as that is how behavior and morals get transmitted.
Tux
Oct 26th, 2011
@ Paul
Did I give the impression I wasn’t calm? In fact I am chuckling as I type.
I was explaining I probably spend more time with my children than most. I am lucky enough to choose if I go to the office or stay home. If we decide to go out then we go out, simple. I don’t prioritise anyone over my children including a women I am partnered to in a game. I hope that clarifies it.
As for the rest of your passage you must realise I have a clearly defined line between RL and SL. I will ignore all your banks and robbers scenarios as they do not relate to this game. Whilst there are similarities, the rules are completely different. Try for a moment to separate them.
And finally, do my children know SL? Tux? The JLU? No, and therefore there is no explaination required. Like I said, my children are not your concern XD
James Doe
Oct 26th, 2011
Robble,
Sorry Kalel And many of the JLU as far as I can tell have wives, husbands, daughters, sons. I can see my wife going to me “you what? Your having a transsexual person come stay with us that you meet on second life because they are having problems James we are having our own problems with our own things.”
And what would have happened if Nikola killed themselves in Kalel’s home? Sorry I am not faulting JLU or Kalel for not wanting to have this person in my home. For all we know they tried to help Nikola in some way we are not aware of. Help could have been look go to this place or talk to your family they will understand. You don’t know.
You have no clue what Kalel or any of the JLU members did all you have is what was written on the internet. Most people who do good deeds do not need to crow about it. All we know is someone tried to help them we don’t know.
TUX the operative words in your statement is WERE ABLE
members that “WERE ABLE” would
So this means not all would or could help in situations.
What is helping?
Giving them Phone numbers to call, Advice?
What is the definition of help what kind of help can i give to a friend of mine from second life who lives in Australia and me living in the US.
Paul
Oct 26th, 2011
@Tux
yep, I know you are chuckling. The worst thing you could do is show some earnest emotion around here. Got it, understood. You are stone cold and icy my brotha!
As you said, your family is not my concern, so spare me the explanation of what a good parent you are and what your children know or don’t know. I could care less.
So you have a ‘clearly defined line’ that says it is ok to behave unethically inside a game to the detriment of actual, real people, but wrong to behave unethically outside the game. Got it. I am sure the innocent people inworld that get griefed (and often, to extend the bank analogy further, lose money from their SL businesses) appreciate the distinction. So by all means, let’s hang the JLU on your say so.
Reader
Oct 26th, 2011
@JD
“I was noticing how your discussion switched to that as well.
I have no idea what to make of it.”
it’s simple man, the argument twists & turns depending the phase of the moon, the opposing point of view applied and the level of prescribed medications at the right dosage and intervals – meaning – if the admin of medication is out of whack, so is the argument.
I will say this though, Tux’s rationalization that he has multiple windows open, implying that he casually watches the “entertainment” as a side-line is complete utter nonsense. He may very well have multiple windows open at various hours of the day & night but the fact remains, between the comment flow pattern here on the Herald – over on SLU – and his hours logged into Second Life, he is “tron” addict. And that only part of it. I’ll say it again as it bears repeating, THIS IS ALL HE HAS. Understand that key point and the entire analysis becomes crystal clear.
He’s not a casual second lifer, he’s a primary obsessor.
His own website rants
His participation on the SLU as a ring leader
His participation here
His participation on open grids like inworldz
His participation on Second Life
His participation tweeting like an idiot
His obvious mood swings and switcharoo arguments
And an alleged family that is left scratching their collective heads.
(I say alleged because regardless of what the wiki stated, it’s conjecture to the average reader and more importantly, it’s not much of a family scenario when a parent is obsessed beyond belief – now is it?)
So you do the math.
And beware, the idiot train this go-around is exhibiting some quirky tendancies. GG3, Robble, Tux and hobo might very well be ONE as(s)perger’s continued attempts at socially engagement – no matter how lame it may come off.
Peace out!