The Alphaville Herald

255 Responses to “Interview with Gorean Mistress Maria LaVeaux and her slave, Toy”

1. 

   Mistress Sly
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   Maria and Julianna,

   You both seem to be assuming too much, if you both go back and reread my post you will see.

   1.I never stated that I thought the word “hon” was condescending. I just asked you not to address me that way, just as I would do in real life with someone who said “hon” to me, as a matter of fact that is why I put it as a aside, again just stating I do not want to be called “hon”. In the real life Leather community there are many titles and we ask what someone wants to be called.

   2.Julianna as you stated in one of your above post you enjoy a discussion, again if you look above at my post that is what I was doing discussion what I believed should be in a BDSM 101 workshop. If you believe that your workshop is fine and that there are no problems in TSO with the way people teach your workshop then fine.

   3. In my orginial post here I was making an observation of a BDSM 101 presentation I looked in on and gave me observation of it. You are the one who took ownership of it right from the start and as you stated above “Yes friends, my patience grows thin”. So it seems to me Maria and Julianna, I was not fighting with anyone and Julianna was the one loosing her patiences.

   I see a problem with AV, that many misunderstand the greater BDSM community in AV, and even BDSMer within the community misunderstand each other. I feel it could be that so many are ready to fight and glove each other before anyone can get information out. Maybe this is your role playing in AV, or maybe it is that you are all wanting to fight I am not sure.

   I am looking for others who want to discuss and exchange ideas, not posture and fight. Julianna you are so ready to label things before you even get to really know what it is you are labeling.

   Maria, question please, you have cap many word in your post to me I am afraid I do not understand. What do you mean by Mainstream BDSM?

   I do not believe that Gorean is much different than M/s and only a little different the D/s. A Gorean relationship in real life the slave is not to speak so freely as your Toy, as is a Slave in real life. Yes they both have there own minds but mainly they speak with reserved comments.

   As for the teaching I have never posted that I wanted to teach others in TSO. Yes I am always willing to answer questions when asked. My real life schedule is very full with work and real life leather events around the US that I only come to TSO to enjoy conversations with friends and meet new friends, also to make sure information about the leather community is being exchanged truthfully.

   So now I must be off to Fetish Fair Fleamarket weekend here in Boston. I wish you all an enjoyable weekend.

   Mistress Sly
2. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   It seems to me Mistress Sly that you have come in to criticize, not really add to the community.
3. 

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   I do not beleive i am aquainted with Bruce Sterling or “*his* works ” But i am pleased that others are showing such an interest in the opinions and experiences of toy and Myself. people have sought us out in TSO since the interview was first posted,and whether they agreed with our life choices or not, they have all been a pleasure to talk to. ALL of them have been curious, and open minded and i am happy with the results.
   Note to Dyerbrook:
   I am not incapable of admiting when i am wrong.
   It seems chere, I did misinterpret your intent towards Cocoanut in your post to her, she is accustomed to your sense of humour, but i am not, which goes to show the limitations in this form of communication. Let me say, I am Happy your frindship is still quite in tact. she is a Charming Lady. (As for my being on drugs, Have not,, do not,, and never would touch the stuff. That mistake was purely organic in nature.~Smiling~)

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
4. 

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   Mistress Sly, and My Lady Julianna.
   Please ladies, you both got off on a wrong footing, i see openness and intelligence on both sides, let’s not let pride or ego prevent useful discussion.
   Sly, your stand on use of familiarities is taken, and will be respected.
   I see your points on the differences between M/s and Gor, but there ARE some, and quite sufficient for us to be classed seperatly. By Mainstream, i refer to BD/SM practitioners who’s methods are not as rigid as ours, more moderate in practice. I think you would agree we are a little more intense than the average.
   As for how my Precious one speaks, Don’t mistake Latitude for lack of control, if my toy travels beyond what I consider acceptable i will clamp down on her, and hard. As her Mistress, it is MY right to decide just how far i will allow her to speak, and i have chosen to allow her great freedom here, as the whole purpose of this forum is the exchange of view points. if i choose this second to forbid her to post here again, you will never see another word of hers in print, But what a waste that would be, depriving others of a dedicated slaves point of view. I have taken months to sculpt and mold this Brilliant girl into what she is, i am, proud of her, and i show it. She has intelligence, grace, skill and creativity, All of which i have refined and emphasized. Gone is her use of profanity, her jealousy, her selfishness and her rebelliousness. My aim with toy has never been to break her, that is pointless. I want to Harness and control her. I have my toy’s leash firmly in hand, and i would caution you as any tiger trainer would, just because i can pet her, doesn’t mean it is safe for you to also Unless i permit it. If i wanted a cowering dog, i would have bought one. I personally see nothing to be proud of in owning a grovelling sychophant. it is better for me to be able to say i own her fully in tact, than to say i crushed her spirit. it was after all, her spirit that attracted me to her in the first place. I have harnessed the storm as no one else could.
   As to my typing habits, i occasionally use caps to add emphasis to a particular word in text as i would stress a word in speech. Most seem able to grasp my intent. Text is a rather flat method of communication, and lack of verbal ques and facial expression frequently leads to misunderstanding, as it has between My Lady and yourself. try to judge what is being said, Not the form it takes.

   Your posts are intelligent, and well thought out, and i, for one, would value seeing more of you in the community. it is easy to drop in momentarily, pronounce judgement, then disappear again, as many have tried to do. You have more to offer us, and i think we also have a great deal to offer you.
   My homestone is open to you, enter and be welcome.

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
5. 

   Cocoanut
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   no no no no Toy

   I didn’t mean to suggest that lord cougar was a girl. I was ASKING. I read most of all these posts at once sitting, and I thought one of the BDSM people had said that he was. Having met him, I thought that was kind of amazing, so when I posted my post, I scrolled back about five minutes trying to find that reference and couldn’t.

   I was surprised that someone (I thought) had said he was a girl, is all. It would help when everyone deals with me to realize that I am very straightforward and in some ways guileless and always, as Dyerbrook said, entirely too earnest, lol.

   If I was trying to make some kind of a point or an accusation, you would definitely know that. I was just mixed up about it, is all.

   coco
6. 

   toy
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   ~scritches her head~

   toy didnt say anything about Master Cougar she dont think hehehehe……. OMG perhaps toy has come under some spell or cultish activity she wasnt aware of

   toy was pleased to meet You last night Coco and enjoyed hearing from You and this girl thinks highly of You

   if toy is upset about something she comes right out and says what she thinks

   falara kajira toy
7. 

   toy
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   in answer to something Mistress Sly wrote about toy…….

   “A Gorean relationship in real life the slave is not to speak so freely as your Toy, as is a Slave in real life. Yes they both have there own minds but mainly they speak with reserved comments.”

   this statement is untrue…. even stated in the book, to quote from the books….
   “One of the pleasant things about owning a slave,” I said, “is the opportunity to converse with her, to listen to her, to hear her express herself, her feelings and ideas. One can learn much from a slave. Many slaves, like yourself, are highly intelligent. They can express themselves articulately, clearly, trenchantly, and lyrically. It is a great pleasure to talk with them.”
   Page 203 – Beasts of Gor

   it is up to the Free if they choose to listen to what a slave has to say…. but toy would mention in closing, one has much to learn by listening and talking with slaves

   falara kajira toy
8. 

   Lady Julianna
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   Cocoanut, I am glad that you happened by chance to come to my home the other night. You behaved yourself well in my home, and revealed yourself to be a reasonable person. I have not seen any negative feedback here in this forum following your visit. Your point was made in posting, but even better made with your visit. It was a pleasure to meet you. You are welcome in my home.
9. 

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 9th, 2004
   

   THAT is why i allow my toy to speak freely.
   Mistress is proud of you my Precious little one.

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
10. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 9th, 2004
    

    Coco, you spoke to me the most, last night, and i have said the least about it until now.
    I Echo the sentaments of My Lady Julianna. You are a charming woman and a delight to converse with. Remember my invitation, my toy will be honoured by your presence.

    Maria.
11. 

    shi
    

    Jan 9th, 2004
    

    ~curtsies~

    Ms. Coco..This girl, as well, is straight-forward ….it is i, shi, this girl, who indeed addressed you. Girl’s post is as follows…

    “Ms Coco ~smiles ~ one word..’slick’..Your post was pretty and all but….one comment you made..was quite ugly… and smacked of malicious intent…” (Lord Cougar…a girl?!?!?!) ~rolling her eyes~ an interesting post simply…gone bad. okie dokie”..~winx~

    Girl’s opinion..Before you go making accusations..posting..perhaps “recalling events” , “scrolling” would assist in your posting and replies. okie dokie ~winx teasingly~

    BTW..This girl feels the need to express the fact that she is slave as well..and encouraged to also speak and express herself…For we, as slaves ~reflect~ the Ones we serve. Toy is a beautiful reflection of her beautiful and well-educated Mistress…Enough said.

    Good day to All~
    love, shi xo
12. 

    Monique Desade
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    I had been condemend in TSO at one point for being a “Gorean” Free Woman.. that had also trained Doms. (One of the reasons I formed “Darkest Pleasures” community)
    I must admit, I have met many a hypocrate that before.. “back when” condemed Me in TSO for proclaiming “Gor” as a pleasurable lifestyle exprience… and NOW abselutely play it to the hilt in game. *coughs* I need not mention names. *winks*

    Oh, and for Dyer… OOC (heh) Yes, it is used. When I am a character, I am a charatcer. But behind that character is a driver.. Me. All of these Sims, Avatars, Chat Nicknames.. no matter, they are all still me and My personality. I as well as others can tell the difference of game and reality.

    My reflection of Gor? Yes it came from a group of fiction novels. (isn’t the Bible fiction also? ack another tangent, Pardon me, I digress..) But, you know, I had discovered much in that “Role Play”.. I was able to chat in AOL and iRC and learn, escape, discover and play a whole side of Me I never knew before. I was able to take on Masculine and Feminine traits and make a mark there. I learned of My submissiveness and Dominanance.

    I then tried out these traits in Real Life. I served a Master, and He was quite pleased in what I was able to teach him of what I learned in role playing Gor.

    Even though I am a Dominant, I relished in Gor (as a female) I adored it.. and NEVER did I find it in any way “demeaning of female character”

    The more masuline the males were.. the more feminine I felt… Even as a strong female.. I was swept off My feet and taken in by Those Gorean Males… *swoons*

    I bucked the online Gor (not TSO yet).. by being a Free Woman slaver at one point. I also was a kajira, trained kajira, and in turn, learned much from those that wished to experience it (Gor). Yes there is much to be learned from slaves, and servitude. So much for the term “slave” being politically correct. Everone gets offended by something.

    I find it fascinating that the discussions still lead back to what is acceptable in TSO and what is not. CHOICE to enter a lot. CHOICE to read bios. CHOICE to NOT PLAY TSO? Hmmm… how about that notion? again I had posted on the last Herald thread, Maxis did not judge Me as offensive, BUT THE ONE HARRASSING was the one TOSed.

    Dyer… you say over and over that you are harrased by those in BDSM. Well, treat THOSE how YOU wish to be treated. You seemed to have made an impression? I see you have half the idea of communication down. Now if you could just actually listen and comprehend also.. Then the whole of communication might actually work with You.

    I see in no way whatsoever how our little community can “demoralize and corrupt” Others in game. Get OVER IT!?!?!? Each of US are in charge of our own destinies. We make our own choices. We drive our own paths in life. I am responsible for MY choices.. not others. I can teach My children, but they still will make their own choices. I will not allow You to even think that you have any impact on My lifes path because You don’t have that power. Only We do for ourselves.

    Now, do you NOT see why Our family is so diverse, yet so close? WE CARE. Period.

    Onward with your crusade still? Sure, why not the amusement value is priceless.

    Maria, toy.. My gratitude.

    Regards,
    The Divine Miss M. (I adore the nick so I will keep it)

    Post Script: I still think a nice session with Me would cure what ales you. *just has to laugh* ~Owner of the club House of DeSade in There.com~
    YESSSS it is everywhere… Muahahahaha!
13. 

    Monique Desade
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    I had been condemend in TSO at one point for being a “Gorean” Free Woman.. that had also trained Doms. (One of the reasons I formed “Darkest Pleasures” community)
    I must admit, I have met many a hypocrate that before.. “back when” condemed Me in TSO for proclaiming “Gor” as a pleasurable lifestyle exprience… and NOW abselutely play it to the hilt in game. *coughs* I need not mention names. *winks*

    Oh, and for Dyer… OOC (heh) Yes, it is used. When I am a character, I am a charatcer. But behind that character is a driver.. Me. All of these Sims, Avatars, Chat Nicknames.. no matter, they are all still me and My personality. I as well as others can tell the difference of game and reality.

    My reflection of Gor? Yes it came from a group of fiction novels. (isn’t the Bible fiction also? ack another tangent, Pardon me, I digress..) But, you know, I had discovered much in that “Role Play”.. I was able to chat in AOL and iRC and learn, escape, discover and play a whole side of Me I never knew before. I was able to take on Masculine and Feminine traits and make a mark there. I learned of My submissiveness and Dominanance.

    I then tried out these traits in Real Life. I served a Master, and He was quite pleased in what I was able to teach him of what I learned in role playing Gor.

    Even though I am a Dominant, I relished in Gor (as a female) I adored it.. and NEVER did I find it in any way “demeaning of female character”

    The more masuline the males were.. the more feminine I felt… Even as a strong female.. I was swept off My feet and taken in by Those Gorean Males… *swoons*

    I bucked the online Gor (not TSO yet).. by being a Free Woman slaver at one point. I also was a kajira, trained kajira, and in turn, learned much from those that wished to experience it (Gor). Yes there is much to be learned from slaves, and servitude. So much for the term “slave” being politically correct. Everone gets offended by something.

    I find it fascinating that the discussions still lead back to what is acceptable in TSO and what is not. CHOICE to enter a lot. CHOICE to read bios. CHOICE to NOT PLAY TSO? Hmmm… how about that notion? again I had posted on the last Herald thread, Maxis did not judge Me as offensive, BUT THE ONE HARRASSING was the one TOSed.

    Dyer… you say over and over that you are harrased by those in BDSM. Well, treat THOSE how YOU wish to be treated. You seemed to have made an impression? I see you have half the idea of communication down. Now if you could just actually listen and comprehend also.. Then the whole of communication might actually work with You.

    I see in no way whatsoever how our little community can “demoralize and corrupt” Others in game. Get OVER IT!?!?!? Each of US are in charge of our own destinies. We make our own choices. We drive our own paths in life. I am responsible for MY choices.. not others. I can teach My children, but they still will make their own choices. I will not allow You to even think that you have any impact on My lifes path because You don’t have that power. Only We do for ourselves.

    Now, do you NOT see why Our family is so diverse, yet so close? WE CARE. Period.

    Onward with your crusade still? Sure, why not the amusement value is priceless.

    Maria, toy.. My gratitude.

    Regards,
    The Divine Miss M. (I adore the nick so I will keep it)

    Post Script: I still think a nice session with Me would cure what ales you. *just has to laugh* ~Owner of the club House of DeSade in There.com~
    YESSSS it is everywhere… Muahahahaha!
14. 

    James
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    I have a question for Maria and Toy:
    Would you say your reactions, behaviour, etc right after you discovered Goreanism (is that the proper way to describe it?) to be the same or similar to a Born-Again Christian? What I mean by this is did you feel enlightened, or like you found something you never knew you were missing? Did you feel the need to tell everyone you knew about it, or did you only speak about it when the topic was brought up in a conversation? I do not mean to compare Goreanism to Christianity, nor do I infer that they have any similarities. I’m curious, as it sounds like Goreanism is a set of beliefs, and therefore is similar to a religion in that aspect. What are your thoughts on this?

    And an aside to Dyerbrook: Any Canadian would happily kick your ass for your comments on small town Canada, you ignorant foolish twit.
15. 

    James
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    Oops, hit the post button before I was finished.

    And an aside to Dyerbrook: Any Canadian would happily kick your ass for your comments on small town Canada, you ignorant foolish twit. However, most would simply tell you to “__ck off” and then ignore you, since your not worth the trouble. You claim to be tolerant of others, and then you post bs like this? Your bigotry shines through the shadows of the ‘net as clear as day.

    ~I don’t claim to “save” Alphaville because it is beyond salvation. But I will stand up for civility. Let Alphaville be shut down eventually
    but let the record show that at least one person stood up to the ills represented by the SSG and BDSM with no consideration of the slander and slamming to be suffered. And let the record show that a few friends of that person also stood up, or at least tried to investigate, and for their troubles were booted and banned — yay, even unto the second separation of balloons…~ Dyerbrook

    Even though I’m sure you’d like to be, you are not the Jesus of TSO. I wonder, how many times have you wanted to call those “few friends” apostles? (I don’t want an answer.)

    And your talk of segregating the BDSM community? Sounds a lot like the American Nazi Party’s political plan to segregate the population based on race, if they got elected. (I do not know if that is the name of the actual party, but there is or was a Nazi political party in the US)
    There’s nothing so fearful as the monster within, dyer. Take a hard look in the mirror, and maybe you’ll realize that you are far worse than any imaginary cult your delusional mind has come up with.
16. 

    toy
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    in response to your question. or questions James ………

    “Would you say your reactions, behaviour, etc right after you discovered Goreanism (is that the proper way to describe it?) to be the same or similar to a Born-Again Christian? What I mean by this is did you feel enlightened, or like you found something you never knew you were missing? Did you feel the need to tell everyone you knew about it, or did you only speak about it when the topic was brought up in a conversation? I do not mean to compare Goreanism to Christianity, nor do I infer that they have any similarities. I’m curious, as it sounds like Goreanism is a set of beliefs, and therefore is similar to a religion in that aspect. What are your thoughts on this?”

    toy not being a ‘born again christian’ couldnt answer for one who is…. toy can only respond by saying that one cant ever know something is missing in their life until one learns of this ‘something’ or stumbles across it. It truely was startling, to say the least when toy did her first readings of Gor….. The closest comparison toy could make would be like a light finally comming on in a totally darkened room.

    Yes, toy did probably make a nusiance of herself when she first started her studies of Gor
    But due to the openess and support of the D/s, M/s’ Gor community toy was allowed to, yes rant at times, about her new found inner self
    toy has mellowed over the months but is always ready to openly discuss her love of life and what she is and how wonderful the feelings are

    As far as Gor being a set of beliefs, toy doesnt feel they are… yes there are rules a Gorean must adhere to, there is much to learn of Gor just to survive being Gorean. Gor to toy has always been inside this girl, buried deeply perhaps, but none the less there…. Gor is more about being what one is, living their life simply by being the person they are:)

    toy hopes she has answered well enough about her feelings and what Gor is to this girl and is always available to answer any further questions anyone may have

    falara kajira toy
17. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    Well, James *you* need take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you live with such anger and hatred towards those who disagree with you. When I wrote that about the Canadian town, I wondered if any Canadians would pick it up. I don’t think YOU are Canadian. And guess what? My relatives are Canadian, we lived there for some years, my family owns property there, and we lived in such remote areas that those little towns I talked about in my post seem like thriving metropolis. And so what? It’s important to put these blowhards into some RL context, and they are the kind of provincial, arrogant blowhards who can rule the Internet, now that they have telephones, electricity, computers, and dial-up — but they couldn’t rule any other world.

    Once again, James, segregating is not the same thing as zoning. Zoning is what democratic cities in the free world do even with your beloved BDSM. That’s not the Nazi Party, it’s just common sense. Your inability to distinguish the real-life horror of Nazis massacring Jews, and my simple request not have enslaving whip-brandishers around children and adults who find them revolting for what they std for is something that ought to make YOU check your wallet for your Nazi Party ID card. Please. And frankly, as noted elsewhere, BDSM discriminates against subs and those who don’t approve of their life style, so there is a prima facae violation of the TOS for you. Your constant call for tolerance would be touching, if weren’t for the tolerance of the destruction of a free and liberal society along with it. These things matter.

    I don’t have apostles and I’m not Jesus X — go to that Sim for that — and if you can’t figure out that someone is just using Biblical-style language as a rhetorical flourish to be funny, well, this isn’t the game for you.
18. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    One thing that I like very much about our community is that most of us are pretty tolerant and accepting of the differences between us. There are different “flavours” and degrees to BDSM. There are clashes from time to time due to differences in philosophy, but all in all, we get along together pretty well.

    There was a time when I thought Gor was evil. I had an encounter with a Gorean Master in Blazing Falls who tried to use a very crude “caveman” approach on me, back in my early days as a sub. I did not know anything about Gor, nor it’s approach, nor even the difference between a sub and a slave. This Master certainly received a backlash from me, and I ran to my friends for support. But my interest was piqued, and I did do some reading on the topic–not at lot, but at least I then had some idea of what Gor was all about.

    When Maria and toy first became interested in Gor, they were living in my home in Alphaville. By this time I had discovered that my true nature was not sub, but Domme. At first I was horrified, still believing Gor to be evil. However, they gently educated me and led me along.

    I knew and trusted them both, and this enabled me to open my mind and heart to new knowledge. I know how much Maria loves her toy, and how much toy loves Maria. I know that no matter how rough things may appear, that everything between them is tempered by love and a true understanding of each others’ needs. I know that they are very happy together.

    I have since that time come to meet and know other Gorean friends. Gor is not for everyone, and it is not for me. However, in scening with Mikal we sometimes borrow from Gor, but we are only using it as a device in our scening. We do not live Gor as a lifestyle. We live a Dominant/submissive lifestyle, which is also different from a Master/slave lifestyle. I know some who practice D/s only in the bedroom, and do not embrace the lifestyle 24/7.

    All is good and okay with me, as long as it is all consensual. Some would say that a slave has no choice, no ability to consent. I disagree, they make that choice when they choose to become a Gorean slave. There is a choice there, and if things get too bad or intense, they can leave the relationship, at least in TSO. I accept that there are different flavours and degrees, and it is up to each to choose what is right for them and to find others of a like mind. I will not criticize another.

    Sometimes there are problems when someone enters a D/s home doing Gorean role play. Onlookers who do not understand, or those involved can be quite offended. Sometimes there are those who enter a Gorean home without understanding the rules, and this offends the Goreans.

    Keep an open mind friends. Be sure to know the philosophy of the house you are entering and behave in accordance with that philosophy while there. If not sure about whether or not it is acceptable to do a certain thing, IM the owner, a roomie, or another regular guest in the house to ask. I respect your right to play as you wish, but it is also right to respect the house you are in and it’s occupants by respecting their philosophy while there.

    We can all live together in our community in peace and harmony, as long as we respect the ways of others, keep an open mind, educate ourselves, and do not presume to judge others as right or wrong.

    I want to thank my friends Maria and toy for all they have taught me and for opening my mind. I love you both.
19. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    Laughing at Dyer.. so now you are bigoted against Candians. You deny being a prejudiced bigot, but your choice of words exposes you at every step. “…they are the kind of provincial, arrogant blowhards who can rule the Internet, now that they have telephones, electricity, computers, and dial-up — but they couldn’t rule any other world.” And you said this about small town Canadians, not about BDSMers.

    Guess what Dyer, I am Canadian, lol. There is another reason for you to hate me, as if you needed one.
20. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    Oh, and I speak French too Dyer, how do you like that? *laughing* I just assume you hate the French as well. Let’s get it all out there.

    Who else is on your list?
21. 

    toy
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    dial-up ???? how provincial
22. 

    James
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    Dyer, I am Canadian, and very proud of it. Not all of us are silent patriots, and even the silent ones would get vocal over your ignorant, senseless comments. And you think I’m the one who lives with anger and hatred to those who disagree me? You have me beat in that regard by a long shot. All one has to do is see how many times you post here and elsewhere everyday to see how fanatical you are about your hatred of everything SSG and BDSM.

    Zoning and segregating would be the same thing in this case you twit. You’d be limiting what people could do in their own homes by saying “this server cannot have BDSM in it ever.” And don’t try saying that you don’t care what happens in someone’s house; you’ve already harped on and on about how wrong you think the BDSM houses are.

    I’m not even going to touch on how stupid your comments on the Nazi party are. If you can’t tell the difference between Hitler’s Nazis (circa the late 1920′s-1945) and a wholly different party circa the present, then so be it.

    You were not using biblical-style language as rhetorical flourish, you were painting yourself to be the poor persecuted good guy just trying to spread the good word, only to be verbally crucified by the evil ones. Certainly sounds like a Jesus complex to me.

    I agree with everyone else, it’s time to simply ignore this hypocrit. Besides, it’s not like he can come up with anything new to add to the conversation. He just keeps repeating the same things over and over, like some whiny broken record. Let him whine to himself, or to these “friends” of his that seem to believe everything that he believes.

    Hey, that sounds kinda like… a cult.
23. 

    James
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    And now back to my questions for Maria and Toy:
    I apologize for not explaining what a born-again Christian was. (Christian can be swapped out for any religion, by the way. I know a few born-again Islams.) They are people who have not belonged to, fell out of, or not been interested in religion. Then one day, they find it. For them, it’s such a life altering experience that they feel they have been born again. This is where I thought I saw some similarities, and I wanted to see what you thought on the matter. So I guess my question is: was finding Gor life altering, or life affirming?

    You said that you don’t think of it as a set of beliefs, but that there are rules a Gorean must adhere to. So then is it more of a code of conduct to you? Follow the rules Gor sets out, and decide on the rest as a Master/Slave couple?

    Thanks for answering my questions so quickly, I look forward to your answers here. While I don’t think Gor is for me, it certainly seems interesting.
24. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    I don’t feel anger toward the SSG or the BDSM, I feel revulsion. There is a difference. My, you’re thin-skinned if you can’t accept a mild perjorative reference to a small town in Canada.

    I don’t hate the French and I even read some French. Please.

    My remark about ignorant provincial touchy blowhards refers to many of the posters on this board, Canadian and BDSM. Is there a trend here, an intersection? I think not. Most people in the world are not BDSM, and most Canadians are far more pleasant than the bunch we’re finding on this board.

    Zoning and segregating are different concepts and you don’t have to call me names, James, you can try to prove your point, which you haven’t been able to do.
25. 

    Mikal
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    In regards to this blatant show of hatred for Canadians by Dyerbrook, i just have to ask, is it just Canadians and BDSMers you hate? or do you also hate Native Americans too? or African Americans? i’d just like to say, that if you Dyerbrook live in America, then to me you are considered to be a foreigner. You see, i’m a descendent of the original Americans. my people were pushed off of OUR land by whites. Hmmm..that should give me enough cause to hate all whites. Guess what?!? Even though i have the cause, i don’t. Why?!? Because the Americans of today aren’t the ones who did it to my ancestors. No i don’t hate also because i was not brought up in hate. i was not brought up to be a bigot which is exactly what you are. So, my question stands. Do you hate just Canadians and BDSMers or do you also hate Native Americans, African Americans, and anyone who doesn’t have the same set of beliefs as you?
26. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    Yes, the more I think about it, the more I see a pattern. There is something about all these posts in common, which is they they do not appear to be written by leathered and seasoned denizens of the large metropolises like New York or Chicago or Los Angeles, from what I can see, but touchy provincials, people insecure in their identity, furious at the idea of intolerance of their lifestyle because they probably live in towns where they face many people appalled at them and therefore willing to be insufferable blowhards about their point of view in the venue they can get away with it — TSO. I am not singling out any one BDSMer for a personal, ad hominem attack mind you, but making a collective point. Indeed, the insights that some women in the game have given me appear valid from this discussion — that BDSM is all about people without will, frustrated at their lack of power in life, and using the “exchange of power” game to try to make themselves feel better about themselves. Like the psychological profile of the griefer given by the Cynical Psychologist Suler, we see an exaggerated sense and preoccuption with shame or humiliation, in this willingness for the BDSM gals to get into cat fights over who has the best BDSM workshop for the Fetish Fair or whatever. It’s laughable…when you aren’t crying.

    What I see shining through all these posts is really an insufferable insularity, people who don’t have any consciousness of the world at large, of other cultures, of other societies, of other possibilities other than their own narrow hedonism nurtured in the malls of North America and their “rights”. It’s awfully sad. They have no consciousness of any greater good under than the fulfillment of their own desires. It’s really appalling. Their calls for tolerance or indulgence are belied by their own firey prejudices and narrow, enslaved constriction. Really, it has been a sight to behold, and a sorry one.
27. 

    Raieyana/ra'naa
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    OMG, Dyer, you just described yourself perfectly. FINALLY!
28. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 10th, 2004
    

    As to this:
    “What I see shining through all these posts is really an insufferable insularity, people who don’t have any consciousness of the world at large, of other cultures, of other societies, of other possibilities other than their own narrow hedonism nurtured in the malls of North America and their “rights”. ”

    I always said people judge the world by their own example. Since the only words Dyerbrook hears clearly are his own, I am not surprised that this is all he will take way with him.

    For the Record Dyer, I am also Canadian,
    I am French by Birth,
    I am Black,
    I am Female
    I am a Practicing Lesbian. (Actually, I am well beyond practice. Lol.)
    A Whole List of things that I am Proud to stand up and Say about myself.
    Including,
    I Am Gor Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
    And i WILL not be silenced by you, or by any Pathetic Petty Minded Little Massiah Wannabe.
    Rant away Dyer, You shall Never build yourself up by tearing me down.

    James, Thank you for your Question chere,
    For myself , I can say No, Gor did not affect me as a Religious Revelation. As i have stated before, it gave me a New Vocabulary that, for once in my life Described accuratly who and what i was. But Enlightenment? No. I gain that from Long study, Not religeous Epiphany. Fulfillment? I get that from “Looking” into the sweet face of my Precious toy.

    I Was, and still am Rather quiet about myself (Unless someone Annoy’s me), and i prefer to let others find their own Path. If someone asks about me by way of interest, I will talk (Ad Nauseum. Lol) about my experiences, But if someone is coming to me Looking for the Instruction Manual for Life, they have the wrong Library.
    Outside of this outlook is my relationship with my toy, (and other slaves i have had) they are not asking me to direct their lives, they are asking me to become part of their lives. This i do, If i can, to the Best of my ability, as would a Mother, a sister, a Life Partner. The roles we have in those relationships are the ones that we are most comfortable with, and NO ONE outside the relationship has a right to Pass Judgement on us.

    My Lady Julianna.
    On the day we met, we swore to always be friends. I knew then that you had serious trepidation about Our chosen Path, as have Many others. But through it all My Lady, I knew i could count on your support, Friendship, and love.
    You always knew what i was, even if we didn’t have the language to properly describe it and Knowing, you still loved me. For this Graceful Understanding My Lady, you have my Undying Gratitude.
    In the words we chose together My Lady.

    One Ring.

    Maria.
29. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    One ring, always, and it can never be broken

    How lucky I am to have you as a friend!
30. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    OK, Shi, then, not Toy. I told you I’d read all these posts at one setting and I was mixed up.

    I also explained to you that it was a question, not a snide insinuation or anything with malicious intent. I didn’t make any “accusations,” and, as I said in my previous post, I did try scrolling up. Anyway, where do you get off with this “making accusations” crap? This happens all the time in the game when you discover someone you were sure was of one sex is really of the other. So, as I said earlier, I was just so surprised Lord Cougar might have been a girl, since I had talked to him for a good hour. I even stuck in all sorts of words under “find”, including Julianna, Cougar, etc., trying to find that part to re-read. But after five minutes of that, I gave up and asked. Now I know.

    But, if you wanna believe THAT HARD that I meant something bad by it, go ahead.

    And Dyerbrook does not hate Canadians. Also, he has quite a few very nice friends, and none of them could be remotely considered one of his disciples.

    And thank you, ladies, for your kind comments about me; I did enjoy my visit to Lady Julianna’s house.

    coco
31. 

    toy
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    In answer to your clarified question James

    toy cant say it would be like a religious thing to toy…. its more like when small child realizes that there is a difference between boys and girls…… its like recognizing what one is and moving beyond the revelation, to learn just what the differences are and reveling in which ever one is, girl or boy

    to also answer this question…….

    “You said that you don’t think of it as a set of beliefs, but that there are rules a Gorean must adhere to. So then is it more of a code of conduct to you? Follow the rules Gor sets out, and decide on the rest as a Master/Slave couple?”

    Many Goreans would argue this girls thoughts when she says living by the book is NOT Gorean…
    to best describe a Gorean would be to say a person who lives their life to the fullest…. breaks new ground, is ecstatic in the realization that they are being who and what they are….. the books to toy are a guideline to prevent a ummmmmmmm Gorean anarchy

    now… toy wishes to also comment on the renewed attacks by Dyerbrook…. toy is noticing a pattern to his ummm…. well hate to call them posts so will say rants……. he seems to attack randomly just for attention and when someone replies to his ‘rants’ he repeats and repeats the same thing over and over….. when people grow tired of his rants they ignore him. and low and behold… renewed attacks with a slightly different tack….. now its canadiens and dial up and God knows what else hehehehe….. he will continue to rant about these things as long as he is recieving the attention that seems to be missing in his RL….. once this well of his dries up he will start attacking blindly for the attention once again

    nuf said about a non-entity

    toy wishes all well

    falara kajira toy
32. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    ~chuckles~

    Dyer….

    anyway enough of that subject….

    Toy and Maria I for one want to thank you both for being there to answer questions and help clear the grey areas between gor and the M/s D/s relationships … I believe that all three are close together and many times they are simply mislabeled by those who have not learnt the differences.. this is why your ability to answer questions and help people learn is so rewarding to the comunity thank you both.. ~bows~
33. 

    James
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    Dyerbrook’s either the stupidest person around, or the best griefer the game has ever known. ‘Nuff said.

    Thank you for answering my questions, Maria and Toy. I’ve had very little contact with your kind of lifestyle, so it’s all new and foreign to me. I do have concerns about the violence aspect, but I realize that cases where people go too far will happen in any lifestyle or culture. It’s not limited to Gor or BDSM. There’s another question: Are there signals, safe words or such to let your partner know if they’re going to far? I guess this would apply more to RL encounters than in TSO, but does Gor have anything for those kinds of situations?

    Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.
34. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    James I will give you my view of gor and I do hope to be corrected if I err..

    Gor slaves have no need for safe words, signals etc. it is a complete trust in their partner to not cross that line into permenant damage. The slaves make this choice upon entering into the relationship and the Master/Mistress makes this choice upon accepting the slave. The top has a job to help the other grow, learn many things it is a responsibility to the bottom which in itself is not a job for all. the slave has a job to learn and grow through the teachings of the top but they also have a job to help the top grow and learn as well both sides are stong willed usually and are of strong mind.. they compliment each other and they reflect on each other’s ability when being viewed.
35. 

    toy
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    this girl is always happy to answer honest questions and You do ask honest ones James

    “Are there signals, safe words or such to let your partner know if they’re going to far? I guess this would apply more to RL encounters than in TSO, but does Gor have anything for those kinds of situations?”

    this is a VERY big difference between Gor and D/s, M/s, BDSM… in earth Gor a slave has one choice and only one.. and that is to whether or not they will accept ones collar. after that there is nothing but knowledge as to how a slave must behave that can protect a kajira. This very thing makes the selecting and knowing a Master or Mistress so very important….. It is just plain common sense not to hand over your very life to someone you do not completely trust and know This very thing is what has made the Gorean relationship between this girl and her Mistress last so very long, and hopefully Mistress will consider toy worth keeping in the future as well but it is up to toy to please Mistress or toy would be thrown out….. So you see why toy puts so much emphasis on knowledge for a kajira. toy guesses in a snese Mistress takes care of any ‘safe word’ that may happen between us toy has none, it would allow a slave a bit of control inside the relationship and somehow decay it….

    ~ducks her head knowing she will catch some hell for this statement~ hehehehehe

    please know these are basic concepts and beliefs inside Gor…. and some are this girls opinions so dont throw to many bottles, ect… ect at her hehehehe

    falara kajira toy
36. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 11th, 2004
    

    Throwing vegetables is perfectly acceptable though.

    *smucks toy in the side of the head with a tomato!*

    hehe… uh oh… running from Maria
37. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    My Lady;
    I’ll get you at Recess. ~ Nyah.

    James;
    “I do have concerns about the violence aspect, but I realize that cases where people go too far will happen in any lifestyle or culture.”

    Unfortunatly, Most People tend to dwell upon this aspect. I would like to Clarify one point. Gorean culture is Not inherantly Violent. There can be Any range of treatment of slaves from Mild Chastisement all the way up to and including Erotic Pain (I won’t discuss here, how far my toy and i go, it is not germain to the issue, Nor is it anyones Business but ours.). The choice of level is up to the couple involved (Primarily initiated by the Master/Mistress.) Where it goes, and how far, is up to the Conscience of the Mistress/Master.

    There is No safe word Involved, BUT, My toy has places herself completely in my hands. I in return feel what i believe to be a Greater sense of responsibility to her, and her well being. Her very submission to me, as well as my own personal limits act to make me examine everything i would have her do (Or do to her).The Trust i “See” in her eyes. and my love for her is greater than any safe word we might use.

    Gor takes a Greater sense of self, a greater knowledge of ones actions, and the consequences thereof. One must know ones self very thoroughly to even attempt the lifestyle. To my mind (And this just might be that Gorean arrogance again) Gor is probably the most advanced form of the basic Top/bottm relationship (T/b, D/s, M/s, Etc.). It most certainly should not be adopted by Neophytes to this sort of relationship.

    Catseye;
    BRAVO chere,
    Give that boy a Cookie. )
    I know who you are in game, and i know that you have been observing my relationship with toy closely. I am SO pleased that our Message has come through so clearly to one who simply watches us. Thank you chere.

    There is one thing though that no one has mentioned, and so few people even think of it.
    My Love for my toy, and hers for me.
    toy and i have just this past Saturday Celebrated Eight Months since i placed my Collar upon her throat. My toy is devoted to me, and i to her. When she cannot be on line with me, i feel the loss. I look forward each day to her bright smile, her Mischievious giggle, and also to her Intelligent input. My toy tells all who will listen that these have been the happiest 8 months of her life, and i would have to say, she makes me feel the same.
    She and i BOTH have our needs.
    Not everyone would understand or sympathize with them. Nor do they need to. that is between my toy and myself, it is what drew us together in the first place. What people SHOULD see, and understand is the trust, and the love toy and i hold in our hearts for one another.
    I have seen so many other couples, D/s and Vanilla, who couldn’t hope to be as close and loving as my toy and i. Many have watched us, and even Copied us Trying to find the “Secret” of what makes us so happy. There IS no secret. there is only my toy’s love, and her trust in me demonstrated by her total submission to me, there is my love for her, and my Respect for her Demonstrated by the great care i take to guide her as she grows.

    So many observers,, so many comments and insights from various points of view,,, and that one simple thing seems to have eluded you all (With two exceptions, and they have known us from our beginnings).
    I am glad you are all interested in our lifestyle, and wish to undersatnd it better, but i would be equally glad if you learned some of what makes toy and i Happy, Take it to heart, and Be Happy Yourselves.
38. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Thank you Maria for your kind words to me… I think most who do not mention the Love aspect is because we know it already.. me for example see the complete trust as love .. for why else would one give that absolute trust.
39. 

    Mistress Sly
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Maria,

    Thank you for explaining your writing style I agree sometimes expression does not come out from written word on a page. And now that does explain your Capping words, thank you again.

    I am afraid that I can not speak my mind without Lady Julianna taking it as judgement here. Though she was very nice the few time I entered her lot I find her very hostile here. So as I have done with Dyer, I must do with Lady Julianna and ignore postings.

    I will continue to post from my perspective and enjoy reading others on this site and others.

    Mistress Sly
40. 

    amy dante
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    I wanted to pop in and say how much i enjoyed the article. Thank You Mistress Maria, and thank you jerag toy

    Also, i would like to point out, for those concerned for the welfare of slaves, that we can actually say “no” … we would be poor slaves in doing so, and it may cause the end of the relationship, but we do retain our rights, being human beings. Its easy for me to say i made the choice to be a slave and that was the end of my choices, because that’s the way it feels to me. In actuality, being a slave is a choice made every day, every moment even. It’s just that it would not occur to me to refuse my Master anything … perish the thought.

    Without the backing of laws and society, literal slavery doesnt really exist. The commitment we have made and the love we feel for our Masters and Mistresses is what keeps us slaves. Its not like Mistress Maria could go to the authorities and put out an APB if toy were to run away (which she wouldnt, as we all know). So, i dont always understand the concern expressed for my welfare and that of my brothers and sisters in bondage. We could leave if we chose to, but for the most part, we choose to remain slaves. Personally, i think we are slaves at heart, and that is a stronger bond than laws anyway. P

    Thank You again Mistress Maria and toy for the article, opening up Your home and Y/your hearts, and being such splendid examples of an ideal M/s relationship. This girl loves and respects Y/you both.

    this girl wishes you well
    amy
41. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Monique;
    I am sorry chere, it was remiss of me not to acknowledge your input sooner.

    Your points were Most interesting.
    On the subject of Gender and Slavery,

    “Even though I am a Dominant, I relished in Gor (as a female) I adored it.. and NEVER did I find it in any way “demeaning of female character”

    The more masuline the males were.. the more feminine I felt… Even as a strong female.. I was swept off My feet and taken in by Those Gorean Males… *swoons*
    ”

    I have yet to see “Chapter and Verse” that claims Only Males can be Masters, and only Females can be slaves on Gor. There are laws “In Some City States” That Restrict a Free womans usage of Male slaves Belonging to another free. and world wide there are Many conventions and Customs that will Cast a Free woman as a Slave,But (And this is a big BUT) ONLY IF SHE CHOOSES TO ACT AS A SLAVE IN THE PRESENCE OF OTHER FREES! My understanding of these laws is that they are in place to protect the integrity of the free class, their very purpose is to make the role of slave woman, and free woman CLEAR in a society where slavery is the norm.
    I am a Woman, (Yes, a gay woman) and though i am a slave owner, and a Gorean, I Feel Very Feminine.
    I can be a Woman, and i can be Powerful.
    Strength is NOT inherently a Masculine trait, Nor tenderness a Female one.

    One other point:
    “Now, do you NOT see why Our family is so diverse, yet so close? WE CARE. Period.”
    YES! That is the Glue that holds us together as a Community.
    Thank you Monique.

    Maria.
42. 

    Mistress Sly
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Maria and Toy,

    I have been reading your post here about your views of Gor. I understand that you believe that Gor is very different to M/s that it is a more extreme relationship. I ask if this is on TSO or real life. The reason I ask is that I have in real life taken from many aspects of BDSM service to formulate my M/s relationships. I have enjoyed Gor, I have read and reread all the books. And as yourself Toy I can take quotes from the Gor series to make my points about slave not speaking their mind or address others. But that is not my point, I am trying to understand Goreans in TSO and BDSMers in TSO. I see customs example slave/subs going AFK beside there Mistress or Master. Where does that custom in TSO come from? What other customs do many share in TSO?

    Mistress Sly
43. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Mistress Sly it comes as a mother of invention actually the afk pose is taken as kneeling in TSO since there is no Kneel action and it is accepted as such by many… the community is very diverse in the game there are some who do customs that others do not.. i.e the A/all speech is not adopted by all.. titles for their Masters/Mistresses are also varied though most I have seen use Sir and Maam.. it is much like real life where one sees something and thinks it is a good idea then adpots it into their daily life.. when others see that same action think it a bad idea and does not use it all depends on the relationship and the mind frame of those in that relationship.
44. 

    Alina Davis
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    I have been reading with great interest the postings so far on this thread. I am also very interested in the Gorean lifestyle and have visited many chat rooms and read some of the books. I have adopted the Gorean language and right from the start found it a very beautiful language. I would like to Thank Maria and toy for their doing this interview and answering all the questions about Gor. I found it very informative.

    I’d also like to put a different perspective to the AFK in TSO and it’s use. I personally knew this pose was adopted to replace the kneel for the sub/slave but the other very important reason I have My slave use this pose is the saving of green. As everyone in TSO knows, it is very annoying to have to green constantly and especially during scening. I prefer that she is AFK beside Me and green than standing and getting “all red” LOL besides, I know it’s just an avatar but when I see Mine standing, hovering over Me, well… it’s just annoying *laughing*

    Be Well A/all
45. 

    Mistress Sly
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Thank you for your information Catseye,and Alina Davis that is very interesting. Any other customs or protocols people use in TSO?

    Mistress Sly
46. 

    Mistress Sly
    

    Jan 12th, 2004
    

    Just wanted to past this on to everyone very good article of the lifestyle
    http://www.time.com/time/2004/sex/article/bondage_unbound_growing01a.html

    Great article to have a discussion on.

    Mistress Sly
47. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    In answer to your Question Mistress Sly.
    Another common practice chere, though not yet universal is, A sub, when entering a Dom/mes property, will wait outside by the phone until invited to enter.
    Also, When i first entered AV and gained my toy, I was in the habit, before going to bed, of ordering my toy to Warm my bed. It is Nothing i had ever seen another Dom/me do. It seems to be an attractive idea as this particular order has been spreading among Dom/mes over the last 8 months.
    Certain greetings will gain popularity, and fall into common use. “Enter and be welcome”, An archaic phrasing has begun to appear on more and more lots.
    One Custom that is extremely common is that “Non Event” open sceneing is frowned upon.(By non event, i refer to a dom/me and sub engaging in sexual practices, or punishment beyond chastisement as part of their daily routine. Not as a special event planned for public viewing.)
    In most places Coarse Language is Discouraged. It seems that we are attempting to construct a more Genteel atmosphere.
    There are many customs and practices on their way to becoming customs. All these have varying degrees of universality.
    In front of my Property,Dark Virtues, there is a Stone Upon which is written what i beleive to be the Common values of our community, the things that ALL of us, from simple Top/ Bottom, all the way up to Goreans, Beleive. I have yet to have anyone in our lifestyle disagree with it.
    Read on.

    “What are the Dark Virtues?
    Just what is it that sets us apart from other lifestyles?
    In our world, Love and Tolerance are the norm.
    In our world, The words Please and Thank you still have Power.
    In our world, Honour, Respect and Courtesy still have Value.
    In our world, A persons word is their bond, and more ironclad than any contract.
    In short,, We practice, in secret, all the forgotten graces that once made us Ladies and Gentlemen of Polite society.

    Welcome to our world.”

    I hope this clarifies things for you.
    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
48. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    Sly, rather than point us to a website, don’t you think you should write out your own thoughts on the topic? *tongue in cheek*
49. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    Read the article and it is a very good one. I thank you for pointing it out. My point is Sly that there is some very good stuff on the net once one sorts through the garbage, and much can be learned from it. There is nothing wrong with directing those who wish to learn to such very good sites. I also believe that those who seriously want to learn will spend the time to dig through such sites. Those who are too lazy to do their homework in this way are posers, people we do not want in our midst.
50. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 13th, 2004
    

    Good morning My Lady, and Mistress Sly.

    I am just responding to My Lady’s comment. Point well taken my friend, but perhaps could have been put more diplomaticly. I am sure you didn’t mean to infere that Sly was a Poseur, but your comment could be misread that way.

    Mistress Sly, I haven’t had a chance to View the article yet, but fully intend to today. Are there any points therein i should pay particular attention to?

    If you really wish to know the dynamics of our Community Sly,, Drop in on us. Catseye has learned so much about us, Both theory and practice, simply by watching us directly. If your intent is study, then study us First hand. See for yourself how the principles we discuss are put in to practicle use to greater or lesser degrees by Various D/s couples and houses. An Hours experience can teach you more than a years study chere. My doors are open, and i await your visit.

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