The Alphaville Herald

264 Responses to “Emerald Site Security Broken! Data Mining Shocks Linden Lab!!!”

1. 

   Baaa Goat
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   @doc

   > Ok, so to those “EVERY WEBSITE LOGS YOUR IP” comments i just wanted to say, that my last webserver didnt put the IPs in a database, it puted them in huge logfiles that noone ever looked at.

   Just because you don’t look at the logs doesn’t mean other people don’t. Additionally, if there wasn’t an interest in looking at visitor information, Google analytics wouldn’t be so popular.

   > so its a pretty big difference between the searchable emerald database that stores IPs from multiple sources and connects it to SL accounts. and a simple logfile.

   Most webservers log HTTP auth information in the log file too. I don’t see the difference honestly.

   > well, thats the second case of datamining, that comes from a group that wants us to belive that they do something good for the community.

   I still don’t understand the problem of having someone’s IP address, when they visited your region and UUID. Perhaps you could explain this better?

   I also don’t recall modular systems ever saying they didn’t log this data, so why is there shock?

   > That tells me two things, you cant trust emerald

   OH NO, HE HAS MY IP ADDRESS WITH GEOLOCATION INFORMATION OF THE ISP’S OFFICE THAT REGISTERED THE IP ADDRESS, YOU CAN’T TRUST EMERALD.

   You realize that sounds stupid to me?

   Again, if you don’t trust those locations, don’t visit them. If you don’t want people to get your IP address, pay for an anonymizer service. I don’t see the “issue” that is apparently so clear to you.
2. 

   The Avatar Formally Known As . . .
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   @ Baaa

   “Oh no, it’s “tracking movement” on ELEVEN SIMS by the sim owners. Although I don’t really get your point – Are you saying sim owners aren’t allowed to track visitors?”
   Eleven sims?

   “Again, if you don’t trust those locations, don’t visit them. If you don’t want people to get your IP address, pay for an anonymizer service. I don’t see the “issue” that is apparently so clear to you.”
   This sort of selective understanding has been seen before me thinks.

   “I don’t think you even looked. There, modular systems has a “privacy policy”, that meets all your requirements. Happy days!”
   Actually I did, and what I noticed was this: No official company name, no ceo, no RL names. So their policy is worth shit. Because their is no one to be held accountable.

   “Ooh character assassination!”
   No, not really, certainly no more so than you singling out a German man for not making perfect sense in a majority English thread.
3. 

   Baaa Goat
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   “Eleven sims?”
   Read the other comments, that’s where I got the ‘sim list’ from.

   “Actually I did”

   Yeah, sure.

   “No official company name, no ceo, no RL names. So their policy is worth shit.”

   That’s not what you said initially, you said they had no privacy policy. So I don’t believe your so called story. You’re just changing the argument now.

   “No, not really, certainly no more so than you singling out a German man for not making perfect sense in a majority English thread.”

   I’m not American either, and I’m not singling you out more than any one else on this thread.

   You people still haven’t come up with a real reason why having the UUID, region and IP is bad. Any chain of websites can do the same thing, in fact advertisers do this all the time, tracking where visitors visit.

   You people still haven’t come up with how modular systems is any worse than random websites on the internet.

   Worst is, you people like to compare modular systems to a giant corporation like amazon and think it’s a fair comparison. Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

   I have been waiting for a real reason for a few hours now and nobody has been able to provide one.

   Any issues about privacy with regards to IP addresses is resolved the same way you do with websites. Either use an anonymizer service or don’t visit the websites – It’s not hard.

   I’m done here,
   peace out
4. 

   Kiddoh
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   Bai~

   Although if you weren’t such a self-entitled pansy, you would have used the link I provided to the SLU forums which had everything you desired. Nyo-well~. \D
5. 

   GEORGE ZIMMER, FOUNDER AND CEO OF MEN'S WAREHOUSE
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   As an impartial observer hated by all sides, I’ll give my opinion on the matter.

   I’m pretty sure no one gives a shit about the whole IP and geolocation stuff and that it’s just being used as a red herring to bypass the meat of the situation, that some random assortment of people that are not Linden Lab are being given free reign to act like Linden Lab, ala the JLU all over again, and then the whole thing was halfassedly covered up by eliminating WU, which just brought the story out into the light instead of ending it.

   I’m going to get a nice big ole bag of popcorn and I’m going to enjoy myself watching the sparks fly.
6. 

   Fractured Fail
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   why dont they just bann them, Lindens RLY like to ban
   PPL could make Abuse Reports against them if thats makes them happy. Soon or later they gone.
   they registered with Emerald ModularSystems if this account is gone they gone from the viewer directory. If it is that what these PPL want.
   Just do it….
7. 

   doc
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   @Baaa Goat
   “Most webservers log HTTP auth information in the log file too. I don’t see the difference honestly.”

   so you dont see the difference between a textfile that is generated by default, and a searchable database that is specialy made to connect RL locations, SL accounts and alts.
   Thats not like when you make nice statistics about anonymous visitors of your website , thats more like goolge that connects your email account, contacts and your interests together. …and who said that is a good thing? i didnt.

   “I also don’t recall modular systems ever saying they didn’t log this data, so why is there shock?”
   Can you show me where they wrote that the also grab that info inworld?

   and why are they doing that, that way?
   - To personalize my experience?
   - To improve their website?
   - To improve customer service?
   - To send periodic emails?
   - To administer a contest, promotion, survey or other site feature?

   “Again, if you don’t trust those locations, don’t visit them.”
   Good idea, can you give me a list of those locations?
   I cant find a list on the modularsystems site.

   “If you don’t want people to get your IP address, pay for an anonymizer service”
   “You realize that sounds stupid to me?”
8. 

   Tayste
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   Why collecting SLnames/UUIDs, ips, timestamps, regions is bad:
   1) It is collected by Bad People(tm).

   Clarification:
   a) lonely bluebird/ph0x (ie: pattehph0x) has been accused for scamming people out of money, has admitted to burglary. In real life. Of his neighbor. Many, many other things. Has made *and used* a copybot client.
   b) fractured (ie: jcool410,etc) Where to start? Was involved in neil’s real-life information going public, went so far as to actually call him to further harassment. Can and *HAS* disabled at least one secondlife account’s voice account. Has stolen scripts via exploits. Handles the emerald project’s finances, continually claims to be broke, and yet manages to help fund a dedicated server to run sl bots. Many, many other things.Has made *and used* a copybot client.

   2) Enables Bad People to track your alts.
   3) Enables Bad People to know where you, and your alts, are with a fair bit of certainty at any given time. They know your habits.
   4) Enables Bad People to know your general real-life location, without your permission.
   5) All of this *without* allowing people an opt-out .
   6) Yes, webservers do often track IP addresses.
   a) However, they do not track IP addresses for *specific accounts* across multiple sites *run by other people, and without their permission*
9. 

   Hazim Gazov
   

   May 12th, 2010
   

   @Zimmer

   What are you talking about, I like you!
10. 

    Jayd3n
    

    May 12th, 2010
    

    Well I do see a big difference. 8.3 of the SecondLife TOS does not premit this legally, Emerald gives no agreement or privacy policy when installed therefore its against the law.

    The Most people log when visiting a website is your IP address which (ONLY) Admins have access to, this means they can catch you if your griefering, ect. Ban you, they dont spy where you live RL, Emerald does, and they share this info with lots of people in their groups developers, ect, which again is even more illegal.

    So Yeah there is a big difference, and emerald, Skills Hak, need to be removed from SecondLife just as woodbury was.
11. 

    The Avatar Formally Known As . . .
    

    May 12th, 2010
    

    It is also fact that the bots also record as much info as they possibly can, no doubt updating the database. Then you have the bloated viewer itself , which no matter how you compile it, it is always smaller than their distro. Who is to say that every emerald user isn’t acting as a node to the MS all seeing eye?

    Eleven sims is nothing, the picture is far bigger. And your anonymiser service is also worth shit. They viewer sends your machines data on login.

    In summary, a pp to a non existent company, a group of pre perma banned griefers, a top secret database with the ability to track movements, and linden blindness . . . makes the JLU look like a bunch of spandex wearing faggots.

    Oh wait, they are.

    Still MS are the same, but with a little more knowledge. Remember knowledge is power, and power is dangerous!
12. 

    V
    

    May 12th, 2010
    

    And then, there’s also this.
13. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 12th, 2010
    

    > so you dont see the difference between a textfile that is generated by default, and a searchable database that is specialy made to connect RL locations, SL accounts and alts.

    Not really, because anyone can use that data that is generated by default the same way.

    > Thats not like when you make nice statistics about anonymous visitors of your website , thats more like goolge that connects your email account, contacts and your interests together.

    To make nice statistics, even anonymous ones, you would use that same information to get some nicely detailed info about what services people are using etc. Which, I can do with google analytics with a few tweaks to the site’s design.

    > Can you show me where they wrote that the also grab that info inworld?

    Don’t know, don’t care – People complained about having a privacy policy, not having a good one. I addressed that point and now people change the argument because obviously their original argument doesn’t hold water. I am not interested in people’s excuses or argument changes.

    I will say this, I agree the privacy policy is lacking – But it makes no real difference to me, I can interpret “site” as being a region too.

    With regards to improving services, I can think of a number of ways this information can be used for that reason. Looking at which country’s visitors are mostly popular to target things for those nations, to get rid of griefers, thus improving the overall service for everyone and other crap. I don’t know the real reason, but I can come up with a tonne of ‘legitimate’ reasons which fit the privacy policy.

    > Good idea, can you give me a list of those locations?
    Nope, but if you can’t trust a region not to do that, don’t visit it. Pretty much like every website on the internet.

    Hell, your data is logged by Google when use their services, regardless if you are currently viewing their privacy policy or not to determine whether you trust them.

    I don’t see this as any different.

    If you can’t trust locations with your IP address, then do what people do with websites to protect that information. Don’t visit the locations in the first place or use an anonymizer service.

    > Well I do see a big difference. 8.3 of the SecondLife TOS does not premit this legally

    I read 8.3, seem to me the conditions depends on consent. Well, this is pretty much like private land in real life to me. You don’t have to enter private land, but if you do, you’re subject to whatever stupid rules they have to be on the land. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to go on that private land.

    In other words, I see consent given when you enter private land, since the conditions of that private land was that you would agree to that land. This is no different from private locations that employ security scanners at doors and don’t declare it.

    Now, if this is in another location, and that other private location did not consent to having this device there, there is a whole different story. But so far nobody has brought up this was the case.

    Maybe someone could check with Linden lab how they interpret this part of the ToS? I don’t think I’m far off.

    > The Most people log when visiting a website is your IP address which (ONLY) Admins have access to, this means they can catch you if your griefering, ect. Ban you, they dont spy where you live RL, Emerald does, and they share this info with lots of people in their groups developers, ect, which again is even more illegal.

    Actually, most rich content sites these days log IP addresses, login names, dates of access, referrer links, ‘actions’ taken and plenty of other things. Some of this is for security, others is for statistics and demographics. Sure, perhaps your geocities site doesn’t do it – But this isn’t about geocities websites.

    “So Yeah there is a big difference”
    Sorry, I don’t see it.

    “Skills Hak, need to be removed from SecondLife just as woodbury was.”
    Over a vague infringement? I would say they could write a better privacy policy, then I don’t really see any ‘compliance’ issues when it comes to law – Of course I am not really a lawyer, so I can’t be completely certain, I don’t think however anyone would really have a case when it comes to this.

    I still don’t see what modular systems is any more wrong than the billion of websites doing this sort of thing – I don’t even see this as wrong to begin with, nobody has really given from what I’ve seen some justifiable reason.

    I will say however, if you want to protect the privacy when it comes to your IP, either don’t visit the locations/sites/regions (whatever you want to call them) or use some anonymization service.

    You have the power to do that, you have the power to protect the privacy of the registered ISP address of that IP (which is what geoip databases point at).
14. 

    Cartman
    

    May 12th, 2010
    

    Or how about this: Hazim hacks a web site, and goes to Linden Lab with that and says, hey, look what I found when I hacked this web site! And then Linden Lab looks and says, “Holy shit, this is the second hacked web site by a Woodbury reported to us in ten weeks – if we needed any more proof they should be banned, we certainly don’t anymore!”

    (Delete, delete, delete, mass ban, mass ban, delete, delete, delete…)

    Just sayin’, you know, there’s more than one explanation for the facts here.
15. 

    Cartman
    

    May 12th, 2010
    

    But yeah, what Onyx does makes JLU look like faggots.
16. 

    IntLibber Brautigan
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Cartman,
    Okay, so an entire University group gets banned because of the actions of one kid who lives over 3000 miles away from the University?

    The reality is that Hazim exposed Linden Research Inc. as a corrupt racketeering organization that consorts with theives and other criminals. That organizations mob lawyer, Marty (Linden) Roberts, orders the sims of the folks who have exposed that organizations corrupt and nefarious actions to be shut down and banned from the grid in a ham fisted attempt to cover up LL’s criminality, like a mob lawyer giving a list of witnesses to the mob hit men for disposal.
17. 

    AdmiralAwsome
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    onyx makes the jlu look smart herp derp lawl cout << "Look momma I r being onyx";
18. 

    LOL
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    actually they are tracking what avatars have the boob giggle feature turned on so they can find then and rub one out.
19. 

    Stroker Serpentine
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    SUPRISE!! (not)
20. 

    Jayd3n
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    Woodbury University was a good place, it was fun, and all Members, except those actually violating the Terms OF Service Deserve to be back in SL, including IntLibber, and anyone else unfairly banned, OR they should seek legal actions against Linden Lab. (;

    As for Emerald, and Skills Hak, I dont really care if Skills Hak Owns 5 Insilico Simulators which are the biggest CyberPunk in SL. HE stole his Ideas of his simulator builds anyways from a game called NeoCron 2 Called Reaktor, aka the builds, Tech Haven , ect. I know because I get around a lot.

    Linden Lab should Force these guys to shut down all their illegal Projects, and Leave it in the Hands of Linden Lab only. They should not allow Skills Hak, or residents to take matters into their own hands.

    Personally if people want see someone actually copybotting, or commiting theft, they should actually report it, and leave it in the hands of Linden Lab, but to go and slander people without any type of evidence is a bad thing.

    SecondLife is going down the drain guys, I personally do not know how long I am going to keep paying for my estates in SecondLife. I am quite tired of it, I Like SecondLife, but its just costing me way too much, and since Skills Hak has ruined my name because of CDS, Reguardless of how I got on the list, there is no point in me paying Linden Lab over $600 a month for two Estates, and a couple of Homesteads anymore, it is a big cost in money for me, and Since I am banned from many estates and called a Copybotter, when I have done nothing wrong at all, and Linden Lab allows this type of Slander it is insane.

    Linden Lab, its only a matter of time until Second Life is gone, You know it, I know it, but its not too late to save SecondLife, by getting rid of the Emerald Team, Onyx, CDS, and any other so called anti copybot systems which dont even work. If you refuse, The gangs are going to take over SecondLife fighting against eachother constantly with All those Innocent victims in the middle.
21. 

    Danziel Lane
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Baaa Goat

    “I don’t understand your comments at all, they don’t make any logical sense.”

    Well, this tells a lot about you, but almost nothing about me.

    But maybe I can help you. Look at this example, when you shouted at me:

    D.L.: “And more: I know, amazon and youtube do that too, but if they misuse my data, I can ask a lawyer to take care of it.”
    B.G.: OH NO, THEY HAVE THE GEOIP LOCATION OF WHERE MY ISP REGISTERED THE IP ADDRESS, THIS IS TOTALLY MISS-USE!

    Here you totally ignored the part “… but if they misuse…” of my text to return to your so often repeated bawling.
    I WOULD NOT attack them for having my IP or my Geoip data, I would attack them for misusing them, for example to tell them to others.

    I did that once. Another company (not those I named) gave away my mail addy together with what they had collected about me on their website.
    As I had added a little detail, only known to me, I could make evident, it was this and no other company who had collected and sold my private data.
    And my claim against them was a great success.

    So, what I try to tell you: it’s not the IP and Geoip they store, it’s what they make of it or possibly make of it. Plus, it’s that they hide their identities in a post office box, so I cannot get them like I did with that other company.

    “Why don’t you buy a “ip anonymizer” service?”

    See, I am one of the old fashioned programmers, who look at resources and like programs that do things in a smart way and not misusing the cpu and the storage.
    Using an anonymizer doubles my internet traffic. Data go to the anon server and then to the server I want. The way back is doubled too.
    So, from my ancient ethics about how to use computer resources I do not feel so good when I BUY a service that simply doubles the internet traffic caused by me.
    That is, why I think of smarter solutions, like being able to give evidence as I told you in the example before.

    “You don’t know who the people are at amazon either.”

    No need to know them. But I get a RL address, a lawyer can work with. I also never heard from the guy who was named in the directories of the company that fooled me, but I got some money from that company.

    “Then why are you visiting their locations broadcasting your IP address?”

    As far as Danziel Lane and his IP and location is concerned, I simply told that many people.
    Unlike the people that run MS, I do not hide these data.
    But though I don’t mind about this special packet of private data, I can still talk about my concerns that some guys that do not act like a serious business company and who hide themselvs do collect data and put them together in their database.
    If any, that should be done by Linden Labs, and even them should keep that for running their services only, not for giving these data away.
22. 

    constance maurer
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I bet this is a bunch of men here.

    Srsly. some of you cry more then a five year old on a playground.
    you know when you visit this web site , you know you little boys when you visit those porn websites and blogs they can get your ip address there TO …no one cares about that huh?

    Stop crying grow some balls …some ranting on this stupid web site your making him more famous and he sucks. LOLOLOL …

    Do some thing about it ..all i see here is just a bunch or babies

    Hands out the mother fkin tissue boxes …good god
23. 

    not buying it
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    And they say they are good guys? Heres some more of their bull shit.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XnlYqJqLVI
24. 

    Kiddoh
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I’m sorry you’re fat and have a small penis, Constance Maurer.
25. 

    K.T.D.
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I already knew they were doing shit like this.

    I’ve already SAID they were pulling shit like this.

    But bouncing tits and hacked attachment points that look like shit to the rest of the grid are important to SL residents. Important enough that they don’t WANT to know what MS is really up to.

    I didn’t know that they were pulling the geoIP shit but I’m not suprised.

    So why the FUCK does LL allow this to continue? Their customers deserve answers, and they deserve them NOW.
26. 

    Bernd Lauert
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    “The important thing is that they’re (WU) just GONE, and they’re not coming back”

    Accounts have been banned and the Sim has been deleted. Does this mean that the WU users don’t come to SL anymore? I doubt it.

    If I ever find hard evidence that the removal of the WU Sim and accounts was unjust, then they will have my support. I’m a lone wolf really, and not a WU member. But their enemy will become my enemy. And I don’t care if the enemy is in the Emerald team (great work on the client!) or Linden Lab. I’m not loyal to anyone.

    I’m a SL weapons scripter since years and a greyhat and I got nuff bugs and dirty tricks to share. For great justice.

    Whoever did this (killing WU) better not get my attention again. I predict that what you will get is a lot worse than the Patriotic Nigras. You have been warned.

    We do not forgive.
    We do not forget.
    Expect us.
27. 

    The End Is Nigh
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Jayd3n

    SL is indeed going down the toilet. LL has allowed the metagamers to take over the world, people like the JLU and the mafias and the Emerald/CDS people who have stepped outside the boundaries of the virtual space and taken their game into the real world.

    I’ve personally got no intention of ever logging back into SL because it no longer has anything worth logging in for. There are people who still log in and try to pretend that everything is alright but they’re just fooling themselves. SL is now the playground of groups prepared to take their game outside and into your RL. Sorry, but that’s too far, no matter who is doing it.

    As for why the Emerald people are harvesting this data? Is it so they can rape your bank balances, order you three hundred pizzas or publicly out you? It’s more likely that they are simply harvesting your data so they can then sell those databases to interested third parties for marketing reasons. LL knows they are on the ropes and so they are looking for ways to cash out as much as they can before it all goes tits up. Selling user data for targetted marketing is a big money spinner. The Emerald people are simply giving them a solution and making some money for themselves in the process. LL won’t stop the Emerald people and viewer for the simple reason that they need the funds. And they’ll get rid of anyone who tries to out the Emerald people – just look at recent events with a certain university group…..

    I remember way back when everyone I knew was trying to get me to switch to using Emerald. I said no because I didn’t trust it, my gut told me to stay away and now I’m laughing my nadlings off at everyone who sold themselves just to see some wobbly tits which weren’t even very good in the first place.

    Everyone should abandon SL and the criminals who have ruined it through their greed.
28. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    “See, I am one of the old fashioned programmers, who look at resources and like programs that do things in a smart way and not misusing the cpu and the storage.”
    I don’t believe you, see below.
    “Using an anonymizer doubles my internet traffic. Data go to the anon server and then to the server I want. The way back is doubled too.”
    *Bullshit alarm*
    There is no way using a VPN will double your Internet traffic, at worst, slightly increase it by having an extra ip header in the packet – hell, you could in theory reduce it by using VPN compression.
    What OS can’t handle a VPN connection without taking a noticable amount of CPU usage again? It’s not Windows or Linux.
    “So, from my ancient ethics about how to use computer resources I do not feel so good when I BUY a service that simply doubles the internet traffic caused by me.”
    Well, this shouldn’t effect your ancient ethics, if you value you this “false-doubling” over your privacy, guess who made that choice? You did.

    You decided it was okay to reveal your ‘true’ IP address to untrusted sources for bullshit reasons, not anyone else.

    “That is, why I think of smarter solutions, like being able to give evidence as I told you in the example before.”
    People can ban whoever they hell they please on their own land for any reason. They don’t need evidence to do so.

    You’re banned from my land because you started bullshitting to me about how you’re an old school programmer and how anonymizer services double your traffic – This reminds me of script kiddies, script kiddies on Second life tend to be copybotters and I don’t want your kind on my land.

    “But I get a RL address, a lawyer can work with.”
    I can get a RL address with a court order against the services or have them shut down.

    With regards to Amazon, do you really think that if Amazon was caught doing what Modular Systems was doing (recording information) you’d think you would win in court? I doubt it.

    So this outrage reason is because you can’t sue them? I think you’re making up reasons honestly.

    Either way, the point remains, if you want to protect your IP address on Second life, you do it the same way you protect it on websites, you either don’t visit the locations or use an anonymizer service.

    “So why the FUCK does LL allow this to continue?”

    Because nobody has been able to give a GOOD reason why it’s really bad that they have an IP address, your UUID and the geolocation information of the registered ISP office that owns that IP address.
29. 

    Archie
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    Quote: > Ok, so to those “EVERY WEBSITE LOGS YOUR IP” comments i just wanted to say, that my last webserver didnt put the IPs in a database, it puted them in huge logfiles that no-one ever looked at.

    A logfil is just a databse in text form and therefore it can be looked at in exactly the same way, its just hasn’t be logically sorted and prettied up for ease of reading, but its a doddle to do and is often used by security forces- in fact its law for ISP’s to retain them in the UK and most of Europe.
30. 

    Archie
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    Quote: > Ok, so to those “EVERY WEBSITE LOGS YOUR IP” comments i just wanted to say, that my last webserver didnt put the IPs in a database, it puted them in huge logfiles that no-one ever looked at.

    A logfile is just a database in text form and therefore it can be looked at in exactly the same way, its just hasn’t be logically sorted and prettied up for ease of reading, but its a doddle to do and is often used by security forces- in fact its law for ISP’s to retain them in the UK and most of Europe.
31. 

    tred without fear
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    OK, so if I own a sim, or a parcel on a sim, lets say I have my own streaming media set up for that sim where I use shoutcast or something for the parcel Radio setting, and lets say I use some other streaming mp4 server for serving parcel Media. Since I am running those streaming servers that are setup for that parcel, then every time that someone comes into my parcel with their Streaming enabled, BAMMO, I get their IP address in my streaming server log. If I have a Visitor Tracker also set up in my parcel recording the times that Visitors come in, then its easy at that point to compare the Visitor Tracker Timestamps with the Streaming server timestamps, and again BAMMO, I now have the avatar name and their IP address which can then be plugged into geoIP to get their RL location.

    If that is the way they are getting your actual IP address, it might be a good idea to just turn both your streaming media options off in your SL client until you need them, and be done with the problem.
32. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    “If that is the way they are getting your actual IP address, it might be a good idea to just turn both your streaming media options off in your SL client until you need them, and be done with the problem.”

    In all honesty, if you’re paranoid about giving out your IP address, don’t visit the locations or use an anonymizer service.

    You can be tricked into opening URLs, they could use other methods you’re not aware of such as using voice chat to get your IP address etc.

    If your IP address is so important to keep secret, I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t use an anonymizer service or just NOT VISIT UNTRUSTED LOCATIONS.
33. 

    Danziel Lane
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Baaa Goat

    Well ok, maybe you don’t understand my poor English, so I will not continue to try and explain my concerns.

    One point however:

    “I can get a RL address with a court order against the services or have them shut down.”

    Can you?
    All they tell you is a post office box.
    Will a court order reveal the RL address of those in charge?

    Plus:
    They got a private domain with SL TLD.
    Yes you CAN get a court order against them, cause their server is registered/located in Germany, even near to my town.
    But the easier way for servers in Germany would be to send them what we call “Abmahnung” (call to order) … and I guess, some German lawyer will soon do that.
    It’s an easy way for German lawyers to get money cause we have this silly law about impressums and other rules on websites.

    So, I am still interested in watching, how this will develop.
34. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    “Will a court order reveal the RL address of those in charge? ”

    You can get a court order against P.O. boxes to get RL addresses, yes.

    “They got a private domain with SL TLD.”
    I have one with .com, it’s not illegal, nor is it unusual.

    “I guess, some German lawyer will soon do that.”

    You will have to forgive me if I don’t exactly believe you. Considering that many people have been claiming they will sue Emerald for ages and don’t even get a lawyer to begin with.

    “It’s an easy way for German lawyers to get money cause we have this silly law about impressums and other rules on websites. ”

    Don’t forget that you actually have to make an attempt first to get them to move into compliance before using a lawsuit. Now, since we’re told that ‘datamine’ has been removed from the server, you’re going to have difficulty proving they didn’t move into ‘compliance’ if you’re specifically targeting a case about ‘datamine’.

    Now, with regards to German compliance issues, looking at German privacy policies on a few websites, they’re pretty similar to modular systems. I’d also take note that it appears the minimum required is just an e-mail address (sample http://www.icrc.de/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/privacy-policy ), I have seen others using P.O. Box addresses in my very quick search on .de domains.

    Are you able to bring up German law that shows this is not the case?

    If not, does that mean the red cross organization will have a problem with an “easy way for German lawyers to get money”?
35. 

    V
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @ Danziel Lane: Ich frage mich vor dem Hintergrund, ob das nicht ohnehin abmahnwürdig ist, da hier ja ein eindeutiger Verstoß gegen § 14 BDSG vorliegt.
36. 

    Danziel Lane
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    Baaa, I am not interested on talking much about law and about explaining law to others, especially cause there is another law here that allows this only to registered persons like lawyers and judges.
    So if you want more information about how law is working here, just ask a German lawyer.

    About your question about the red cross site: what I was talking about was not the info about other’s privacy but the law to reveal the identities of the company running a website. The red cross does that here:
    http://www.icrc.de/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList2/About_the_ICRC:Contacts
    revealing a real address in Geneva and a phone number. That is, what German business sites are asked to do by law … or in this case a Swiss society using a German TLD.

    @V: Maybe. But besides the article of the Herald I have no real proof that this is all true. I am more interested in watching how Linden Labs do about this than to try and harm the Emerald team. I guess, others are more interested.
37. 

    Samantha
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    OMFG this onyx rocks, it was worth every penny I just paid. Public version coming as soon as I can dissect it fully.
38. 

    Winter Seale
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I agree with Baaa. Lame. Nothing that worries me. If you want to hide your IP the only option you have is to set your system to use a proxy server (eg, go get TOR). Expecting that SL will somehow magically stop this information from leaking is wishful thinking.

    Frankly, the Emerald explanations for why they have this seem quite likely to me. Were they overly cavalier with information that many see as private-ish? Yes. Was this an attempt to grief or break into accounts? No, I don’t think so. Is this a typically over the top attempt at attention mongering by the herald? Yes, I think so, but it’s a low grade tabloid, so well, that’s what I imagine we’ve all come to expect from it.
39. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I read through the site you provided with google translate

    Sections like “§ 12 Anwendungsbereich” brought up that this law applies to matters of personal data, I don’t understand how IP addresses are personal data or geolocation information of the ISP’s registered office for the IP address counts as personal data.

    “der Betroffene nach Maßgabe des § 4a Abs. 3 eingewilligt hat,”

    Issues of consent, well, I would assume consent works the same with modular systems as other websites, the fact they have a privacy policy up, means you consent to their services. If you don’t agree with it, you don’t access their services.

    There are bits like “es sich um Daten handelt, die der Betroffene offenkundig öffentlich gemacht hat,”, which google translated to

    “there are data and are made by the person concerned clearly public, ”

    So, even if your IP address and login name were considered personal data some how… Being that your IP address is technically clearly public information because you give it out whenever you access your system, I’m skeptical of claims about infringement.

    Being that you work around under a specific login name in a location, that is also “cleary public” to anyone there.

    I am not a lawyer, but I can’t see if redcross, yahoo and many other organizations aren’t infringing currently how modularsystems is exactly infringing. Perhaps you could explain this better?
40. 

    V
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I would, if it would be worth explaining anything to you. But actually, I don’t care.
41. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    “About your question about the red cross site: what I was talking about was not the info about other’s privacy but the law to reveal the identities of the company running a website.”

    How does this work with non-companies? Modular systems is not a registered company. It’s a group of individuals.

    “revealing a real address in Geneva and a phone number. That is, what German business sites are asked to do by law … or in this case a Swiss society using a German TLD.”

    A P.O. Box is a real address. You can send mail, visit the address etc. – They also provided a phone number in the privacy policy.
42. 

    Hazim Gazov
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Baaa

    IIRC a german court ruled that IP addresses weren’t personal information.

    TBH I’m not at all interested in the legal implications of the datamine, I’m more interested in the obvious intentions. People who weren’t even EMs in the sim were given the ability to geolocate anyone who registered using the regapi or visited several select sims. That alone is kind of creepy.
43. 

    K.T.D.
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @baaa: The reason why it’s a bad thing for Modular to be doing this data is pretty fucking obvious. If you don’t see it, you’re a fucking retard, please blow your brains out and do the rest of us a favor.
44. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @K.T.D

    I don’t. Maybe you should explain it instead of throwing around insults.
45. 

    Baaa Goat
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    I find it truly amazing. I have been on here now for what.. Over a day now? And nobody has been able to provide a legitimate reason why it’s “bad” compared to any other site on the Internet.

    The anonymity issues are exactly the same on websites as they are on Second life, the issues to resolve them or even exactly the same. Don’t visit the sites (regions/websites) or use an anonymizer service.

    People claiming there is some personal information violation, because they have automated the process of looking up the registered office the ISP used to register the IP address.

    People claiming there is no privacy policy, but then I point it out and suddenly it “exists” but now the whole argument changes that it’s not good enough. Yet I point out that it does seem easily possible to apply that privacy policy to this system. Then the argument changes to legality and when I point out the whole fact that they are using legitimate addresses, are providing phone numbers, I apparently don’t see it because it’s “pretty fucking obvious”.

    I think you guys just have something against Modular Systems and don’t have any legitimate complaint.

    Peace out.
46. 

    Danziel Lane
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Baaa
    “How does this work with non-companies? Modular systems is not a registered company. It’s a group of individuals.”

    There must always be one responsible person or registered company being named as in charge of the web content.
    So, if they had a German site or running their site in Germany or offering services to German customers, they would have to give one address, phone number and mail addy.

    “A P.O. Box is a real address.”

    Not in the meaning of the law we are discussing. It must be an address, where the judge would be able to send a policeman and find the person in charge.

    The idea behind this is to make it easier for customers to address their complaints, without having to ask a judge for the address behind the post office box.

    “You can send mail, visit the address etc. – They also provided a phone number in the privacy policy.”

    OK, we are talking about German law as an example and as an explanation what I expect of a serious business company.
    The law says you have to give an address, where you will find the guy in charge personally.
47. 

    Danziel Lane
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Baaa
    “I find it truly amazing. I have been on here now for what.. Over a day now? And nobody has been able to provide a legitimate reason why it’s “bad” compared to any other site on the Internet.”

    Let us agree to disagree.
    What concerns you or looks bad to you might be completely different to what concerns others.
    It’s just a matter of personal limits. You see this collection of data almost same to what other websites do, others see a difference.
    You don’t want to call this difference “bad”, others do.

    The good part of the message: human beings are different, and that’s good, cause they think different (for example about what a legitimate reason is) and have different ideas. It’s good that we are different, otherwise we would not need most of us.
48. 

    Tayste
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    Baa: Read my comment earlier on this page. (It’s fairly long).
    I don’t see you refuting it.

    p.s.: Their privacy policy only relates to the website. No other services. As such it is a moot issue on most things, other than the regapi logging issue (which was in *addition* to in-SL ip logging). By the time you TP’d into the Emerald Point sim to read their covenant (ie: Where the privacy policy pertaining to SL should be), you were already logged without consent, notice, or capability to opt-out.

    That, as per my understanding, is against German data privacy law. Their server, as we known, resides in Germany.
49. 

    The Avatar Formally Known As . . .
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @Baaa (the person with their fingers in their ears singing la la laa except when they hear ip address)

    Many of the MS group are known griefers and thieves. Many have been banned for such things. Many have worked on copybot viewers. They joined together and supposedly turned over a new leaf. And now make Emerald.

    LL work to eliminate the copybot viewers from SL.

    Except Onyx. Now, to my mind if you eliminate your competition you capture the market right?

    But along the way they took it one step further. The got RegAPI. Now people sign up with these ‘fine upstanding people’. Do they realise their info is being recorded in a database? Username, password, email and ip address (I am sure you will only pick up on this though).

    Then they have a few bots also going round and scanning data along the way. No doubt sending data back to the very same DB.

    The you have the Emerald viewer which lags like fuck unless you compile it yourself. Hmmm, could the lag be info sent back to a central server? Their distributed version certainly goes through an in depth handshake upon login. So I guess even if you change that password to be safe, it could easily be sent on successful login.

    So to the IP address you are so happy to shift the focus too. What is its importance? Very little in fact. Only this:- if you query their db for an IP, you can guess quite accurately the majority of results will be alts.

    But then you deflective mentality will ignore the lot and go on about an anonymis
    zor, which wouldn’t work anyway because the Emerald client grabs your ip and sends it to MS on login.

    And for the record the MS pp is worthless because it only applies to their website data. It doesn’t apply to data from SL, RegAPI, or the viewer transmissions.
50. 

    K.T.D.
    

    May 13th, 2010
    

    @baaa:

    I should not need to explain it to you. It’s written out quite clearly in an earlier post. Apparently you missed it or failed to comprehend it, so I will restate it for you.

    The Emerald team is made up of individuals with a history of writing malicious viewers that could crash sims, steal content, and crash other viewers. Several of these viewers also contained keyloggers that could steal account information such as usernames and passwords.

    Many people on the dev team have been permanently banned from SL on other accounts for these acts, and other acts including content theft, hacking the permissions system, etc. The list goes on and on.

    You don’t leave a convicted rapist alone with a 110 pound female.

    You don’t drop your kids off at a day care run by a convicted pedophile.

    You don’t just give firearms to people with convictions for armed robbery or murder.

    You don’t leave your wallet on the table with a meth addict sitting across from you.

    You don’t allow people with convictions for identity theft to process your tax returns.

    And you do not allow people who admit to fraud, burglary and other crimes RL, as well as the many other malicious things that the Emerald devs have done to harvest whatever data on other people they please. Modular Systems is not Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo, Microsoft or Linden Lab. They are a group of antisocial cunts with some computer skills who have banded together to harvest data.

    Can I make it any more clear, or are you really just that fucking stupid?

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