Understanding the “Little Hitlers” of Second Life
by Pixeleen Mistral on 24/10/11 at 1:50 am
I’ve long wondered at the connection between Second Life’s endless supply of over-the-top drama and the strange psychology of certain players -- particularly those seriously invested in “defending” Linden Lab and “policing” the Second Life grid.
What is it about Second Life that attracts and retains obsessive-compulsive meta-gamerz who can’t keep their play inside the game?
Do large land tier payments to the Lab trump civil discourse even when Lab staff are swept up in an ugly cycle of Twitter/Google bombing payback as we saw with the LabRatuOut mess? After a concerted effort to attract the Lab’s attention to the recent excesses of the Justice League Unlimited, some of my friends in The Pink Hands faction are getting a bit cynical.
the Pink Hands faction is becoming cynical about Linden Lab
The golden rule seems to be in effect - those spending the virtual gold, rule. Perhaps Rod Humble is just hoping he can finish his new not-SL mobile-device-enabled game before the house of cards falls.
Meanwhile, consider notoriously toxic trolls such as Jumpman Lane, Kalel Venkman’s Justice League Unlimited vigilantes, or Prokofy Neva -- and the level of effort required to spend years tracking and data-mining other players or mounting an endless series of intensive blog, Twitter, and Google bombing campaigns designed to humiliate and destroy enemies.
Forgiveness and redemption seem to be alien concepts for some trolls upstanding Second Life residents, which implies a deep psychological need is being addressed. What exactly is going on?
A recent article in The Economist describing how “quite ordinary people will succumb to bad behaviour if the circumstances are right” may hold some answers.
According to the article, Nathanael Fast of the University of Southern California and colleagues at Northwestern and Stanford universities ran a series of experiments to see if social circumstances around power and status have the potential to create “little Hitlers” who annoy and frustrate others for their own gratification - or are certain individuals predisposed to this sort of behaviour simply gravitating into situations where they can behave badly?
The experiments randomly placed participants into one of 4 groups: high power/high status, low power/low status, low power/high status, and high power/low status. Participants were given the option of forcing other participants to perform humiliating actions -- or not.
Those in the low status/high power group chose significantly more demeaning tasks to impose onto other participants, while those in the other 3 groups did not exhibit this behaviour.
Does this mean that the more extreme guardians of Second Life feel they are in a position of low status in real life and are compensating by harassing and humiliating those within their reach?
If, as the study suggests, the combination of low status and high power is a recipe for trouble, I am beginning to think the celebrated free social media tools which empower those dedicated to cultivating their Internet notoriety may contain the seeds of their own destruction as the "little Hitlers" of the social media use their online power to trash everyone else.
Do you still want to play Web 2.0 after watching Jumpman Lane’s Twitter assault on Stroker Serpentine, LabRatuOut’s assault on Esbee Linden, or after following Prokofy Neva’s carefully crafted Google bombing attacks on all and sundry? How do you feel after learning that Kalel Venkman is still expanding and unsuccessfully attempting to secure his Brainiac wiki data mine?
Is this the sort of game you want to play?
Bunjie
Nov 15th, 2011
Just to add, I believe Linden Lab offered to buy her out at great expense, she refused all offers at every turn and insisted Linden Lab bend to her will.
Also I might still have the notecard the woman gave out about her “issue” with Linden Lab… might look later no promises.
James Doe
Nov 15th, 2011
@Bunjie
As I have stated I dislike going to mainland sims. They are far to junky looking for me. I use to rent from private estates which dictated what i could build and where, because I wanted the whole sim area to have an aesthetic feel and look to it. I was involved in a situation in one sim I was renting with where a person decided to rent the middle parcel of the sim and put this gawd awful building in it. All the other residents in the sim made it unbearable for these people to stay in the sim. When this person slapped the building so out of theme for the rest of the sim it ruined the community we all had.
I know own a full sim and I and the my renters know what we want for the ground area. They can build what ever they want in the sky above the cloud line. But on the ground they must build in the style of the sim.
Sure its futile to police the mainland, but let them comment about the stuff. Its not hurting you, you don’t have to read about it.
@Senban Babii
So you no longer play in SL and don’t look to be coming back in. Then why don’t you just step away from the discussions? You have no desire to go back and play why should any of these concern you. As far as any of us know the JLU is not doing the collecting anymore. I only keep seeing the same old stuff nothing new in any of the leaks,
Senban Babii
Nov 15th, 2011
@James Doe
“So you no longer play in SL and don’t look to be coming back in.”
Well my account remains open in case I ever do need to log in for something.
“Then why don’t you just step away from the discussions?”
Yes a lot of people would like that. They’d like the difficult questions to just go away.
“You have no desire to go back and play why should any of these concern you.”
Well they concern me as they are the cause of why I walked away from SL. And as SL isn’t the only virtual world, discussing the issues will help ensure that other virtual worlds learn from the mistakes made by Linden Lab. Certainly I think people have a right to be informed about the issues that might affect them and for all involved to discuss them whether existing players, former players or potential players, wouldn’t you agree?
“As far as any of us know the JLU is not doing the collecting anymore.”
Do you believe that? Honestly? Let’s say you’re right. What about the issues that have arisen since then e.g. Voodoo? This article isn’t about the JLU, they are just perhaps the most obvious culprits. But there are lots of people out there trying to control who gets to play in Second Life and what games they are allowed to play when they get in.
“I only keep seeing the same old stuff nothing new in any of the leaks,”
I’d say that you need to stop focusing on the JLU wiki leaks and all that old news and cast your nets further afield. This is all part of a very old story that dates at least to the days of TSO. And it involves many of the same people too.
Paul
Nov 15th, 2011
“This is all part of a very old story that dates at least to the days of TSO. And it involves many of the same people too.”
yep. The same six people…and those are the only six people who care about the story amid the hundreds of thousands of current SL residents.
James Doe
Nov 15th, 2011
@Senban,
I have pointed out I know more people doing the same issue as JLU but you basically said to me at the one time that you had no knowledge of the issue and it doesn’t concern you man many pages ago. So what is it should it concern us or not.
Voodoo is a mass ban system as far as I know and so what. People with Mass Ban-link systems hurt themselves not others in reality. The people that use these systems are the ones who answer e-mails that they won the lottery in Australia with out even entering.
Same with the Redzone issue, it was obvious it was a designed protection racket.
I have no idea what to think of the JLU since; we do not get shown the whole picture accurately from Fred or the others. They are picking and choosing what to show us.
I am sure there is some chat logs that show the people the JLU go after being bad and doing what the JLU claims they are doing but guess what we want see that will we?
How come it was acceptable for Joshua N, and the lynch mob on the slu forums to do exactly what the JLU did? Look at how many people supported it? If people tried to point out they were doing the same thing they were yelled at and beaten down.
So when do we see more current Information instead of the same old chat logs. The same old information and then we watch people make fun of the JLU chats in the slu forums.
I am sure if we all saw anyone of these others chats we would be picking it apart too.
I guess you missed the wiki parts where Tizzers talked about buying up all these stocks to gain control and kick the owner out. But see you all don’t want to see the whole picture because it will make the people complaining look just as bad.
@Paul
Yea i agree it is the same old story over and over they all are a bunch of broken records.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 15th, 2011
James,
“@IntLibber
Then why are you not speaking out against the group that came to the con and damaged other sim owners builds or placed the pornographic images up on others builds?”
I spoke against their behavior while I was at the con, at the end-of-con briefing, which was the first time I had seen a TWH member at the con, I saw them putting up prims with gross nude pics on them, and tried to alert the con hosts. They responded idiotically by first accusing ME of putting them up there, which I did not, I right clicked and removed them as fast as I could. They had been put up there by a person named Aposeopesis Resident who was a TWH member. Apparently some idiot JLU trainees were depending on seeing whose “look at” crosshairs were on the prim as a means of identifying who was doing it rather than looking at the prim owner and falsely IDing me. I finally convinced them who was responsible and explained HOW they were able to do what they did:
a) the con hosts made the IFT group open join, and…
b) they made the IFT builder role capable of inviting other people into the same role, and….
c) a member of TWH had gotten the builder role given to him by deceitfully claiming to be a brony builder….
d) that TWH member kept inviting aposeopesis resident into the builder role every time the con hosts booted him from the group, and rather than turning off that role ability, or the ability to build at all on the land, they left things quite loose. so the griefing happened because the IFT hosts were totally irresponsible with granting group abilities and roles to people. I told them that at the time and they ignored me.
“See this is the issue. Many of these people are backing people who have done this stuff just because you all don’t like the JLU.
I have never been griefed by the JLU, I am not in the wiki, I have not been griefed by woodbury or any other form of them. But I do know when its a grudge match and a vendetta against a couple of children playing king of the hill. Both groups have good people and the bad seeds.”
I’ve known the JLU for a LONG time. I was once their staunchest ally among the estate owners of SL. I have come to know all of their major members quite well. When I exposed the fact that the JLU was using spy alts inside the PN to organize griefing, and later alts inside WU to grief with in order to impugn the Woodbury group as a whole, I was ostracized, and the JLU defamed me publicly and through their friends at LL.
“Seems everyone wants to have a free Second Life but they want to ban Prok or JLU. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. If you accept that TWH are playing the game their way then you have to accept the JLU and Prok are playing it the other way.”
The current members of TWH began originally, back in the day as a bunch of 4chan btards or SA W-hat members hanging out in the public sandboxes minding their own business. Some were furries who had land in furnation and other furry estates. Then the JLU came along, and a furry by the name of Angel Fluffy, who was a philosophy major intent on demonstrating how to use dialectical conflict to build public sympathy for furrys. They decided to make the channers and goons their pick boys, and used alts to organize them as cohesive griefers. People became griefers because they got banned for no reason, saw the injustice of it, and decided they had nothing left to lose, which is a very dangerous place to put anybody, but it helped to perpetuate the manpower supply to the PN and other griefer groups to keep these people permanently disenfranchised and delegitimized from SL society.
“I am only defending them by pointing out everything people are yelling about others do it just as much as they do.
Everyone screaming for prok to be banned or the JLU are in fact displaying they want to control Second Life as well and are becoming these little hitlers as well.”
Well in that case you would be wrong. That is as dumb a conclusion as saying that libertarians want to overthrow the government to force you to…… leave them alone……
Senban Babii
Nov 15th, 2011
@James Doe
“I have pointed out I know more people doing the same issue as JLU but you basically said to me at the one time that you had no knowledge of the issue and it doesn’t concern you man many pages ago. So what is it should it concern us or not.”
Oh James, you’re turning into Paul and that makes me sad
What I *actually* told you that while ago was when people were attempting to get me to comment and in effect judge Joshua Nightshade. What I said was that I had no knowledge of anything Joshua had done and barely knew the name as I’d not long joined SLU at that time. I barely look at SLU even now. So what I pointed out was that whilst it was possible that Joshua was in fact the first born son on Beelzebub and that he ate babies on the graves of orphans, I had no knowledge and so wasn’t in a position to judge. I went on to point out, as I have again this very day as you know that I am against *anyone* who does the kind of thing we’re talking about here, whether it’s the JLU, Tizzers, Redzone, the Easter Bunny or whoever. The sad thing is though that as I’ve already pointed out (I wish you people would read stuff to save me a lot of repetition) that this has become the norm rather than the exception, that’s why I abandoned SL and why I encourage others to abandon it too. If someone does go outside the magic circle but then repents so to speak then great, we’re all good. But when a group like the JLU does it over and over and doesn’t give a crap about anything but fecking over their enemies then it’s not the kind of environment that I want to be part of. If they see that as a victory, cool. The sad thing is though, it’s a victory over someone who wasn’t even fighting them.
Is this going in yet? Are you hearing my words?
Paul
Nov 15th, 2011
Senban,
Sure we are hearing your words…the fact that we don’t agree with them doesn’t make us obtuse, as much as you want to paint that picture.
I suggest you reconsider your “magic circle’ idea, because if their was ever an inviolable ‘magic circle’ that works to construct a narrative and squash any dissent, it is certainly the circle of griefers and griefer-apologists here and on the SLU.
hobo kelly
Nov 15th, 2011
It sure is sad that certain Trek groups in SL are full of a bunch of JLU and other little weiners. I would phaser you fucks in half where you sleep if I could find you. UFS is infected bad with these creeps but thats not too much of a surprise. UFS wouldn’t recognize a warp engine if someone shoved one up their ass either. GFC could take UFS any solar day of the week with one hand tied behind their back. UFS, hack spit, corrupt to the max and full of aids…
Paul
Nov 15th, 2011
hobo said:
“I would phaser you fucks in half where you sleep if I could find you”
Is this an example of the ‘new morality or no morality at all’ that virtual worlds allow us to explore according to Tux and Senban? Is this NOT the behavior of a “Little Hitler”?
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 15th, 2011
Paul, its called shutting you up in self defense….
Reader
Nov 15th, 2011
@Paul
That is just Mies being Mies..
“Here we go, this guy Muziekfreak1980 jumps in head first and trolls to the best of his ability on the Alphaville Herald. Lame.”
http://www.youtube.com/user/TuxWinkler#p/u/10/E2aAc2DcZlQ
Paul
Nov 15th, 2011
Intlibber:
shutting me up in self defense? Do realize that makes no sense whatsoever? First, I am not ‘shut up’, and two, how is hobo ‘threatened’ by me in such a way that he would need to react ‘in self defense’? I didnt even realize it was directed at me! was it? Is that really what it takes to make you people feel threatened? no wonder Prok and the JLU have all your panties is such a wad.
but I forgot… Intlibber never make any sense, and hobo pretty much just shrieks like a pterodactyl. I sometimes wonder though, when people write things like hobo just did, if they ever stop to think for a moment that they are actually typing these things where people can read them… they are saying these things out loud. “I would phaser you fucks in half where you sleep if I could find you” Seriously, bro, step back from the computer and get a breath of fresh air.
Peter Pedant
Nov 16th, 2011
Well I think we’ve had some very good examples of Little Hitlers now. Can we have some more News yet?
Senban Babii
Nov 16th, 2011
@Paul
“Sure we are hearing your words…the fact that we don’t agree with them doesn’t make us obtuse, as much as you want to paint that picture.”
Disagreement I can live with and even encourage.
Willfully and consistently misreading words and attempting to twist meanings so as to put words in mouths such as adequately demonstrated by yourself and sadly now increasingly James Doe too?
No. That won’t do at all.
“I suggest you reconsider your “magic circle’ idea, because if their was ever an inviolable ‘magic circle’ that works to construct a narrative and squash any dissent, it is certainly the circle of griefers and griefer-apologists here and on the SLU.”
*sigh*
Eat up all your greens. And get your elbows off the table, you were brought up not dragged up.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
@Senban
Look you don’t need to get “snarky” with the comment.
We have some odd 400+ responses over how many weeks?
When you first wrote that comment I saw it as a brush off by you that you only wanted to deal with the JLU issue and not others.
It is how i read that. You have also twisted my own words in these posts as well. It happens we read or hear what we want to see sometimes. I think I have pointed out several instances by repeating what I said or what I mean by some statements. I admit my own failing at making my assumptions of what you say. It doesn’t mean I am not trying to understand what you are saying or even that I am purposely twisting your statements. Just like in outside your magic circle people in real life don’t always comprehend what others are trying to say.
@Reader,
Wow I actually sat and looked at all the videos Tux has posted. He just happens to get a recording of a voice chat. This is like Joshua just happening to get certain rl information about people. Tux using devices like flexlife to grief people. I love how he plays off he did it to a linden and they were cool with it. But you know if he did it to someone else which he probably has done he would be booted. Sorry I don’t find any of his videos funny at all. He is a mean person and has to pick on others for his own enjoyment. Those videos show that Tux is the definition of a “little hitler” which I guess fits with what I have read about Tux on the web. But then I don’t believe all. Since its others with hate just as much as Tux.
Did you all read the SLU forum lately about the JLU. Where Robble says this.
“ I am pretty sure LL would just go “gee thanks for outing your alt to us” then ban me. And finally, I’m not one of those people who walk around going “origional character pleez do not steal”. Right before my main account and first set of alts were deleted I had even given out a big box of random stuff I made, fullperm, and encouraged people to give it out to their friends.”
I love how he knows he is in SL and hiding from them, when they banned him in the past and he is breaking the TOS/CS by ban evasion. He admits it. What a great leader in the crusade against the JLU and One of the leaders in TPH. And the Pink Hands wonder why they are seen as griefers.
@IntLibber
I see so you picked the location next to the JLU. Since you had issues in the past with the JLU after you use to be friends with them. But during the con you were not friendly with them and decided to place the “pony group” next to them. Right seems to me that you knew what you were doing when picking the spot. Since the build members in the “pony group” one of them was inviting others in to grief the other paying sponsors of the sim. Seems to me you can’t play all innocent since the IFT organizers specifically said many times to make sure you are away from any groups you do not get along with. They had said this many times. You were allowed to pick a location from the 4 main sim areas yet you happen to place it next to the JLU? Really?
Yea I see you have to bring up you politics now to defend and make a point. I could care less that you’re a libertarian.
paul
Nov 16th, 2011
@JD
Yeah that site of Tux’s is really an eye-opener. How can that possibly be ‘ok’ and what they accuse the JLU of be ‘criminal’? It’s like a much more elaborate and invasive version of hobo saying he would kill me if he knew where I lived. I had been exposed to chat room drama before but I had no idea people behaved like this until i started reading the Herald. Little Hitlers indeed.
Dontspill McGinnis
Nov 16th, 2011
It seems Reader is now so addled by his rage that he thinks everyone is someone called “Mies”
Poor chap. .. (Mies, Not Reader.)
That’s sad, but typical of the conspiracy theories the JLU weave to justify their actions to themselves.
hobo kelly
Nov 16th, 2011
It sounds to me like that whole IFT “con” thing was indeed a “con” job. It sounds to me like that whole IFT organization needs some scrutiny because they are not in and of the startrek community if they are employing spandex clad pedo stalkers (JLU and GLE) to work “security” which there is absolutely no need for if the prim options are managed properly. There was no reason for any security at the “con” job if the prim options had been set properly. That means that the whole “con” thing was a setup from the beginning to put the JLU and GLE teen stalkers out there where they could stalk. It also guaranteed that the normal people who do not appreciate the JLU stalkers, people like Tux and others, it guaranteed that they would do whatever they could to ruin the JLU Pedo stalking experience at the “con” job. In case you stalker fucks in the JLU don’t realize it, that is how most of SL see it. And if I ever find any of you sick fucks I will vacuume desicate each of your sorry asses in the nearest airlock before I allow any of you to corrupt Starfleet further.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
@Hobo,
It was a group from the “My Little pony group” that allowed others to come in and grief the con. We never had issues at the past cons till the children from the my little pony fan club came in. Sure the con organizers set things ups certain land things up incorrectly.
So what t he JLU and GLE were sim security as were some members from BSG sims and Trek Sims. Your buddies were the ones who came in and caused issues not the JLU or the Security team. Your buddies went around and caused issues with others booths. You all can try to defend your actions that the con made it possible. But in the end your childish antics are in the end to be blamed. 3 Years we never had the level of childish anticts than what the small group brought in this year.
@Dontspill,
Seems to me that the JLU isn’t the only one weaving conspiracy theories in all this TWH, TPH they all are as well.
paul
Nov 16th, 2011
@Dontspill
I seems that the m.o. of ALL the little hitlers, griefer and vigilante, is to weave conspiracy theories.
Dontspill McGinnis
Nov 16th, 2011
@ James Doe and paul
Isn’t that a conspiracy theory in and of itself?
Oh what tangled webs you weave!
Tux
Nov 16th, 2011
Lol reader,paul &jd still bitchin i see.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
@Tux,
I don’t call a discussion with Senban and Intlibber bitching.
We are having discussions unlike having the time to go real time with the discussion we are doing it here. when we have the time to process what each person says.
But sure go ahead and call it bitching its your perspective. I am sure if you could you would try to find out who i am and make a video that can poke fun at yet another person.
Emperor Norton hears a who?
Nov 16th, 2011
James Doe @ “I love how he knows he is in SL and hiding from them, when they banned him in the past and he is breaking the TOS/CS by ban evasion. He admits it. What a great leader in the crusade against the JLU and One of the leaders in TPH. And the Pink Hands wonder why they are seen as griefers. ”
This sums up why Pink Hands has been a such an utter failure. Known *perma banned* luzers leading the moral outage = no one cares..
And before anyone says “but we hurt the JLU,,.” everyone considers the vigilantes creeps all ready so nothings changed. While Interlibber is trying to spin it the JLU created the greifers, it’s clear JLU is a reaction to griefers and the greifers enable the JLU. Linden lab banning griefers on site is what is hurting the JLU. Also, get a clue, that Wiki was meant to be leaked by the JLU to slander their enemies.
Dontspill McGinnis
Nov 16th, 2011
It seems the Emporor has new ideas as well as new clothes.
Robble "little hitler" Rubble
Nov 16th, 2011
I should go to IFC next year too, I had a great time when I was there last time.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
James,
“It was a group from the “My Little pony group” that allowed others to come in and grief the con. We never had issues at the past cons till the children from the my little pony fan club came in. Sure the con organizers set things ups certain land things up incorrectly.
So what t he JLU and GLE were sim security as were some members from BSG sims and Trek Sims. Your buddies were the ones who came in and caused issues not the JLU or the Security team.”
No, it WASNT a group from the my little pony group. The pony sims had been getting harassed by some TWH members prior to this, they were definitely not friendly to the Bronies.
You get griefing any time you invite the JLU in, because, the fact is, that the real griefers are JLU members who make alts and pose as PN to harass people they want to build influence with, period. The Bronies were just a convenient patsy for the JLU to point the finger of blame at.
I had warned the Bronies about this too, unfortunately, they had invited JLU members to participate in the community, like GLE, Sam Brautigan, and some others who seemed to be not in agreement with the reactionary spazzers like Kalolz. GLE and Sam had told us that JLU was neutral toward the Bronies, so we decided to give them a second chance. Up until the con, GLE had been helping out with modding duties in Bronyville. Bronies had nothing to do with TWH. The only reason that TWH caused problems at the con was because JLU was there. If you didnt allow JLU to be “security” at the con, I very much doubt TWH would have cared at all about the con.
paul
Nov 16th, 2011
“the only reason that TWH caused problems at the con was because JLU was there”
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Intlibber, I swear to god you make my day with your comments. Do you actually believe what you write yourself? Senban and Tux at least try to mount coherent and believable arguments. Between the three of you (well, five, if you include the shrieking of robble and hobo) I can’t tell you how well you have convinced me that the JLU are a bunch of bad criminals and Tux and the other griefers are bunch of innocent angels.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
Paul,
Sorry, but any idiot on the grid knows that the JLU are griefer magnets, anyplace they go, griefers follow. Refusing to recognise this just mark you as a JLU sock puppet.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
IntLibber,
So basically your agreeing that t he people from the Wrong hands went out of their way to grief the sim because of the JLU?
Seems to me that the group of people who are crying foul that the JLU stalks them are Stalking the JLU then.
JLU was at the con the other years and GLE was security in 2010 we the con didn’t get griefed. I have been at the con with the various rp groups since they started putting them on.
The Bronies were not all just convient patsy’s since one of the main sims got removed from sl, the one Tizzers owned i believe.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
The JLU bring only 1 group of griefers TWH
I don’t see them attracting others.
And as I pointed out they were at the con the other years as well, and we never got griefed like we did this year.
Was this your first year at the con IntLibber, as a vendor?
paul
Nov 16th, 2011
Intlibber,
So when you say “any idiot’ knows, I assume you are including yourself?
So yeah, what you are saying is that the griefing and vigilantism go together… that has been clear to me since day one. The griefers and the vigilantes need each other, and SL would be better without either.
So what was it I refuse to recognize? That the JLU are jackasses? no no, I figured that out right away. I am JLU sockpuppet? Didn’t you say earlier I was Prok’s ‘sockpuppet’? Make up your mind, or think of a new clever retort for when you get confused. That one doesn’t really work when you plain old just screw up the arguments and misread the posts. When people don’t agree with you, that does not mean they are all in league in a conspiracy against you.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
James, yes it was. The point is, that the JLU have been engaged in a genocidal campaign against anything channish for quite a while. TWH was formed specifically to counter the JLU intelligently rather than just being stupid griefers manipulated by JLU alt infiltrators. TWH kept its membership restricted, focusing on quality rather than quantity, which helped prevent infiltration. Leaking the JLU wiki (the first time) was their first act of push back at the sort of level that the JLU had already been pursuing people at, in RL (ref: Maverick’s fraudulent letters to the Woodbury administration). Going after all sources of spyware was next: Emerald devs, Redzone, and ultimately, the JLU’s Phantom Zone.
Now, if the JLU were truly interested in providing the con with security, they would have advised you to not make your group roles and building abilities so insecure, and to not allow people to leave out objects manipulable by anyone. If you had hired my security firm, Ng Security, back in the day, thats what my first piece of advice to you would have been, and if you refused to do it, I would have quit working with you. Any sane person would. Thus, the JLU clearly were setting things up to encourage griefing, which is their typical MO: encourage people to act stupid, use alts to grief those people, then come in and build their influence by “advising” them how they screwed up and pointing a finger of blame at some other group as the bad guys.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
Oh, and fwiw: what TWH did at the con was mildly annoying. I wouldn’t care to call it any sort of serious griefing. Until you have had to deal with dedicated griefers crashing all your sims day after day for weeks on end, you have no clue what griefing really is. I have, and I place blame squarely where it belong: the JLU.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
Intlibber,
Mildly annoying placing pornographic images on peoples builds in a PG sim?
Sorry that is not mildly annoying it’s offensive to many people especially with the teens in the grid now as well.
Again you say JLU is the only one getting “black ops” if I recall TWH had gotten people into the JLU group as well. Let look at one of the leaders of TWH Tux and his lovely videos. Sorry they are not innocent in this.
Question:
Where you even at any of the meetings about the con before it happened? Were you at any of the security meetings?
IFT con and Kirk and all like to believe in the best of people that people will not take advantage of others like TWH members. I do not fault IFT con for being to trustworthy of the vendors at the con since most of us may have our differences but we don’t go out of our way to harass each other at a con where we are all part of the scifi community.
Spin it all you want JLU was at the con several years before your SW group or the Bronies. We never had these issues till this year.
Its that TWH can’t leave the JLU alone as much as the JLU can’t leave them alone.
I have spoken to members of the JLU about other topics and they are not all evil people just like I am sure not all Woodbury or TWH are.
TWH had not right placing those images up in people’s booths or destroying some other booths builds. They can not be mature and leave others alone.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
I advised the dude who I registered at the map with a few days prior about the problems on the first day of building, when I saw how easy it was for me to invite others into the builder role. They chose to ignore my advice.
Now, the only TWH activity I am aware of is Tux putting a “Tux is Coming” sign on the JLU parcel as a joke because the JLU was late in setting up their booth, and them putting up nude pics during the after-con debriefing. Other than that, I saw no TWH activity anywhere, and I was cycling between my three booths through the duration of the con. In fact, up until the post-con debriefing, the only thing I would even call “mildly annoying” was that someone removed MY personal longcat statue from the Bronyville booth without authorization. It was no taller than that obnoxious JLU Krypton Radio tower that it stood across from, and was not scripted to do anything other than have hovertext saying “NO U!” (I have a picture of it if you like…).
Now, as for “TWH not having a right to place those images up in people’s booths or destroying some other booths builds”, you dont seem to comprehend that “rights” in SL are hard coded. TWH members certainly had the right to invite their members into the IFT builder role, because one of you idiots was dumb enough to give a TWH member that role (and I had warned you guys not to), since TWH had no booth there, but hey, none of you idiots listend to anything I had to say. As IFT Builders, they certainly “had the right” to build whatever they hell they wanted anywhere on IFT land, because you idiots structured your con land so that individual booth owners didn’t actually own the land of their booth, so they couldnt control who built what where, an essential security measure in SL. So the lax security existed simply because you idiots GAVE TWH the right to do what they did, against MY advice, and you refused to fix it too.
Paul
Nov 16th, 2011
“lax security gave the TWH the right to do what they did”
That’s brilliant. You are starting to sound like Tux or Senban.
Bunjie
Nov 16th, 2011
@IntLibber Brautigan
“@Paul,
Sorry, but any idiot on the grid knows that the JLU are griefer magnets, anyplace they go, griefers follow. Refusing to recognize this just mark you as a JLU sock puppet.”
Yes any idiot on the grid knows as well as the JLU themselves who’ve said it repetitively and are proud of that fact, they’re a target by their own making and that’s their justification for saving the day, hence the colorful spandex.
By definition you can’t be a target and be acting as security, security is there to prevent stuff and protect others not encourage the event to be greifed because the security has a beef with other residents, and can’t keep the bright uniforms in the role play draw instead using them to attract residents to them like flies for the drama and thrill while claiming to be doing security to prevent trouble.
A competent boss would never hire someone with such baggage that actively tries to be a target, security should be passive not offensive as you’re supposed to defuse and resolve situations not encourage others to make you become the situation.
As becoming the situation to resolve an active ongoing issue is the last resort when diplomacy and other security methods fail which will only always come under self defense, not self offence towards whom you think is worth shooting because you think they look bad or you’re too weak to do anything else but pull a trigger when you get the opportunity of antagonizing other residents into behavior that is against the TOS by being a spandex punch bag.
I’ll get griefed so you don’t have to eh eh? sounds good on a propaganda resume towards the weak “minded” they proclaim to protect? but to anyone with sense it’s sign of the worst kind of loose cannon that if given a badge and gun would use it offensively and not as a last resort, works good in movies but not so good in real life.
They’re really just a walking shit talking “Punch Bag” but hay if that’s your badge of honor good luck with walking away from SL with anything but a decrepit reputation, only idiots go around asking to do security and be a target so you don’t have too!
Which means they’re totally antagonizing other residents into behavior that is against the TOS, which is a TOS violation as well as something you’re not supposed to do, even though real law enforcement use methods that are well almost close to entrapment and provoking. But this is SL and the rules how ever loose do fall within these boundaries of not becoming a deliberate target so others break the TOS.
At least that’s how I interpret them of course that never works with Linden Lab as an argument for removing Prokofy, who by all definitions is the queen of antagonizing other residents into behavior that is against the TOS, that they’d likely not have done other wise.
Paul
Nov 16th, 2011
It is such a powerful argument: I got antagonized into doing bad things, therefore I am blameless.
Bunjie
Nov 16th, 2011
Just to add, you don’t see the presidents body guards wearing bright spandex running along side the motorcade or having a long term beef with people who threaten the president so they become the focus of the psyche of such people, though if the chance arises they do take a bullet for him but they don’t act like in the movies and have “baggage” with people who want to attack them on site and then expect to be “doing security”.
As only a moron would allow someone like that to be around the president. security is passive, preventative and about mediating with the last resort being self defense, not self offensive unless you’re not on the directly involved team and doing a raid to pick up known trouble makers, not being a target and resolving issues is the sign of a professional and not attracting people who hate you to an event to make you look better is the sign of one as well.
If you’re a walking target you’re a danger to everyone around you, and that’s the definition of an idiot who thinks he know security.
@Paul Drop it, you’re kidding no one so stop playing dumb.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
IntLibber
Wait so TWH had every right to post pornographic images on other people’s booths in a PG sim?
Really thats against the TOS/CS of secondlife .
Oh ok you were the only voice of reason at the con. Please stop playing that way.
The con organizers trust people. Idiots like your friends your defending make them run to the JLU to add the Phantom Zone device at the next con. If TWH were grown adults and didn’t harrass other booths. I would say it was just a JLU vs TWH but they did it to others booths. Many people got the images placed on their booths. So you obviously were blind to it all.
Paul
Nov 16th, 2011
Bunji said:
“@Paul Drop it, you’re kidding no one so stop playing dumb.”
I am confused…do you think I am kidding when I point out that the griefers and the JLU are both the same kind of trouble maker and that SL would be better off without either? Or am I kidding when I just can not for the life of me take Intlibber’s or Tux’s excuses for bad behavior seriously?
DeNovo Broome
Nov 16th, 2011
I’ve never seen such a conspicuous failure of argument and so many people so conspicuously talking around the issues at hand – which of course makes it impossible to come to any sort of synthesis.
But this is an essential point. A fact. No matter who is on your naughty and nice list, this point must be taken into account, because you cannot actually MANAGE your Naughty and Nice Lists without understanding this simple point:
IntLibber Brautigan says “you dont seem to comprehend that “rights” in SL are hard coded. TWH members certainly had the right to invite their members into the IFT builder role, because one of you idiots was dumb enough to give a TWH member that role (and I had warned you guys not to), since TWH had no booth there, but hey, none of you idiots listend to anything I had to say. As IFT Builders, they certainly “had the right” to build whatever they hell they wanted anywhere on IFT land, because you idiots structured your con land so that individual booth owners didn’t actually own the land of their booth, so they couldnt control who built what where, an essential security measure in SL. So the lax security existed simply because you idiots GAVE TWH the right to do what they did, against MY advice, and you refused to fix it too.”
That will be true because it is true. And Intlibber is not an “apologist for griefers” because he RTFM’d and you did not. Nor does it actually speak to what he THINKS of griefers, or whether it’s arguable or not that some people deserve griefing or cause grief or are wholesale drama queens who are trying to set up branch franchises.
Pardon my sarcasm – but it’s in service of pointing out that these are actually *entirely* different issues. Completely separate topics.
If you want to keep out certain people, you can do that. You can sort people any way you like, as finely as you care to – the tools exist and are inherent in SL, and if you understand those tools, they work quite well.
“Rights are hard-coded.”
…and if someone abuses the hard-coded rights granted by a group, you can simply adjust those rights.
Some people are clearly attracted to causing drama. And some people are clearly wildly attractive targets. Now, whether it’s right or wrong to grief, or whether it’s “your fault” or “a violation of your rights” if you are griefed, the actual point is that if you are on your own land, and you ARE pranked – fixing your land perms will put an end to that, and having a public temper tantrum will not.
Now, if you think there is a point to making a conspicuous fuss about something, sure, go ahead. Goodness, I do. But this is really very basic, on the level of “check all cables going to the computer BEFORE calling customer support. ”
The whole idea here is avoid being griefed and crashed. Part of that is to manage security properly. Part of it is to not to react to things in a way that makes people want to see you over-react again – and this time capture it on video. And part of it is being a decent person and realizing that while it would be entertaining in a sense to get bunji all worked up about furry rights or prok ranting on about the Manifest Desteny of Land Barons – it would not be terribly clever.
But yes, there are people that are easily annoyed. and there are people who poke them. And these people are *everywhere.*
There comes a point when the entire discussion becomes griefing, and all parties and any point anyone may once have had is lost in the noise. We has a Meta-Grief. And you are all a pack of cards!
So back to IntLibber Brautigan’s point. Use the tools you have, and if you don’t understand, ask someone who knows. NO “patch” security (like JLU’s PZ) can be as good as INHERENT security, so you only use such tools to do things that hard-coded security cannot do.
And that is the point where discussion should start. Because that discussion is about what security, if any, by what means is a proper balance of security and privacy in SL.
But try to keep those threads separate in your mind. Because if someone says, “Did you turn off build access,” it reflects poorly on you if your response is “YOU ARE A GRIEFER APOLOGIST!”
No, he’s saying that if you leave your front door unlocked, it’s conceivable that someone might walk in and steal your TV, and that it might be better to lock your doors instead of demanding that people cease all criminal activity in your vicinity.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
THANK YOU, DeNovo!
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
James,
Calling TWH “my friends” would be inaccurate. While a few are friends of mine, others are people I tolerate as long as they behave, and others hate me, and I am vastly disappointed in how they behave. The people who were causing you problems at the con are the same ones I have problems with. The fact that, as DeNovo tries to explain, that I point out that you and your buddies incompetence in land and group management is the reason TWH members were able to do what they did. I do not apologize for anything TWH did at the con. I was the first person to tell you idiots to ban them, long before any problems arose. I told GLE and other JLU members to ban them. I told you all to boot them all from the IFT group. My pointing out your utter incompetence and refusal to listen to reason and expertise doesnt make me an apologist for griefers. Nor does the fact that I *understand* why griefers do the things they do, and the history behind the conflicts they have with JLU, with furries, etc, and how JLU and others have manipulated griefers for their own benefit, also doesnt make me an apologist for griefers. I am trying to educate you people so you will start behaving differently in how you manage land and groups, and how you treat people in SL, so that you don’t turn normal users into griefers with your callous disregard for things. That also, doesnt make me a ‘griefer apologist’ it makes me someone who has been far more effective in reducing griefing on the grid, WITH the help of good people like Tizzers and Charity Stohr, than the JLU and all their paranoid spyware ever could.
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
Good people Like Tizzers?
IntLibber Brautigan you do realise Tizzer was one of the people who tried to take over your land thru gaining shares in your stock scheme right? So now Tizzers is a good person after also breaking the magic circle to go harrass kalel IRL?
So when will you flip flop again to the other side?
Paul
Nov 16th, 2011
@ Intlibber
Good people like Tizzers? Isn’t Tizzers the person that showed up at the RL front door of her video game enemy and was lucky not to have gotten a shotgun shoved up her ass?
@DeNovo
Uhm, the question is not about parcel security (that is some tangent of Intlibbers), but about what motivates people to behave like “Little Hitlers” in second life. The original point made by the article was that people with little power in RL often act out in Second Life where the stakes are so ridiculously low and you are protected by anonymity, and one of the main threads of these threads is to point out that both griefers and vigilantes can equally be categorized this way.
As far as parcel security goes…sure people should take common sense steps (which, IMO, includes NOT asking costumed vigilante geeks to ‘protect’ you). But both you and Intlibber miss the point that Tux and I have argued about: just because you CAN get away with harassing someone because they can’t or won’t turn off object entry (or whatever) doesn’t mean it is morally justifiable.
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
HAHAHAHAHAAAAA
James, now I know for a FACT that you are Kalel Venkman, because he’s the only person who believed that story.
The truth is this: Tizzers and I were already friends at that point, and he admired how I’d built my estate. The “going to take over your land thru gaining shares in your stock scheme” was just a story that Tiz told some of the PN to explain why he was hanging out in my sims so much. At the same time, I was telling Kalel that I specifically told Tizzers he could have land powers once he’d bought 300,000 shares in BNT, because I expected Tiz to lose patience and violate TOS before he’d bought that many, so I could justify reclaiming them to compensate for damage done… That was all part of the cover story we concocted behind our operation to drain the PN’s manpower by giving them creative outlets at woodbury and employment opportunities at BNT. Kalolz kept telling that stupid story despite being told otherwise, to try to illustrate how “stupid and gullible IntLibber is”…. and today, only Kalolz still believes his own version of things….
James Doe
Nov 16th, 2011
IntLibber,
Right I am Kalel your the fountain of all knowledge and you know everything. If you missed that it was sarcasm.
1.) I am a member of the IFT con, I am not one of the people that run the con.
2.) I am not Kalel but sure add that to your Parnoia.
Well I really don’t care who’s side of the story is true or false.
Its the internet everything can be completely made up.
Just like you say Tux added the Tux is comming sign, yet Tux denies he did that.
You support people who grief others for their own ammusment. Sorry Tizzers is one of those thats why he and woodbury were removed from SL and yet he still comes back in because he loves the drama and attention he gets.
Again you miss the point of the IFT con.
TWH placed Pornographic Images on others booths. They didn’t just harrass JLU or the IFT con event people. They decided to screw around with other people who had no idea about TWH or the JLU issue. I don’t care what ever land settings the IFT con had. THEY TRUST PEOPLE unlike you and other people. I actually have more respect for them because they try to be neutral in all things as well as trying to be friendly to all and trusting. Sorry thats something sl needs but your buddies ruin that for others.