Understanding the “Little Hitlers” of Second Life
by Pixeleen Mistral on 24/10/11 at 1:50 am
I’ve long wondered at the connection between Second Life’s endless supply of over-the-top drama and the strange psychology of certain players -- particularly those seriously invested in “defending” Linden Lab and “policing” the Second Life grid.
What is it about Second Life that attracts and retains obsessive-compulsive meta-gamerz who can’t keep their play inside the game?
Do large land tier payments to the Lab trump civil discourse even when Lab staff are swept up in an ugly cycle of Twitter/Google bombing payback as we saw with the LabRatuOut mess? After a concerted effort to attract the Lab’s attention to the recent excesses of the Justice League Unlimited, some of my friends in The Pink Hands faction are getting a bit cynical.
the Pink Hands faction is becoming cynical about Linden Lab
The golden rule seems to be in effect - those spending the virtual gold, rule. Perhaps Rod Humble is just hoping he can finish his new not-SL mobile-device-enabled game before the house of cards falls.
Meanwhile, consider notoriously toxic trolls such as Jumpman Lane, Kalel Venkman’s Justice League Unlimited vigilantes, or Prokofy Neva -- and the level of effort required to spend years tracking and data-mining other players or mounting an endless series of intensive blog, Twitter, and Google bombing campaigns designed to humiliate and destroy enemies.
Forgiveness and redemption seem to be alien concepts for some trolls upstanding Second Life residents, which implies a deep psychological need is being addressed. What exactly is going on?
A recent article in The Economist describing how “quite ordinary people will succumb to bad behaviour if the circumstances are right” may hold some answers.
According to the article, Nathanael Fast of the University of Southern California and colleagues at Northwestern and Stanford universities ran a series of experiments to see if social circumstances around power and status have the potential to create “little Hitlers” who annoy and frustrate others for their own gratification - or are certain individuals predisposed to this sort of behaviour simply gravitating into situations where they can behave badly?
The experiments randomly placed participants into one of 4 groups: high power/high status, low power/low status, low power/high status, and high power/low status. Participants were given the option of forcing other participants to perform humiliating actions -- or not.
Those in the low status/high power group chose significantly more demeaning tasks to impose onto other participants, while those in the other 3 groups did not exhibit this behaviour.
Does this mean that the more extreme guardians of Second Life feel they are in a position of low status in real life and are compensating by harassing and humiliating those within their reach?
If, as the study suggests, the combination of low status and high power is a recipe for trouble, I am beginning to think the celebrated free social media tools which empower those dedicated to cultivating their Internet notoriety may contain the seeds of their own destruction as the "little Hitlers" of the social media use their online power to trash everyone else.
Do you still want to play Web 2.0 after watching Jumpman Lane’s Twitter assault on Stroker Serpentine, LabRatuOut’s assault on Esbee Linden, or after following Prokofy Neva’s carefully crafted Google bombing attacks on all and sundry? How do you feel after learning that Kalel Venkman is still expanding and unsuccessfully attempting to secure his Brainiac wiki data mine?
Is this the sort of game you want to play?
IntLibber Brautigan
Nov 16th, 2011
Keep ignoring the facts….
“They TRUST PEOPLE” …
If they trust people in SL, they are the dumbest sons of bitches on the grid (or else they are Prok, but I repeat myself).
Also: that stock scheme story was only known by PN members, and Kalel and Angel Fluffy, so if you arent Kalel or Angel, you must be a PN griefer yourself…. So unless you identify yourself, you are one of those.
Tux
Nov 16th, 2011
Just a quick note: It has already been shown I did not place the sign by members of the security team who looked at the owner. I simply blogged about it.
Also, I was never, nor will I ever be a leader of the TWH. In fact I am not even a member. They are a great bunch, but I do not share the same interests. Before slating them I suggest getting to know them.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
Hey Intlibber,
Are you that much of an internet idiot?
Seriously you know all the crap you did is out on the internet?
Do a google search for your name and Tizzers together.
Let me help you.
http://wb.gemnetworks.com/8/BrainiacWiki_W-Z/default_043.html
http://wb.gemnetworks.com/8/BrainiacWiki_A-MAL/default_719.html
I could show you more but do your own work.
“The situation was finally rectified when, in the early hours of July 18, 2011, it all came to an abrupt end. These two regions were removed from the grid along with their owner Atlas SaintLouis, the Woodbury / Wrong Hands ban evasion alts Twinkie Swizzle (Tizzers Foxchase) and Overbrain Unplugged (Intlibber Brautigan).”
paul
Nov 17th, 2011
this is all too rich lmaoooo
LOL@ “Overbrain Unplugged”
Tux: uhm, just another quick note: if you are not affiliated with “the wrong hands” how come your avatar on these comments identifies you as a member of the “the wrong hands?” oh yeah I forgot, part of your game is plausible deniability lololol
DeNovo Broome
Nov 17th, 2011
@Paul: “But both you and Intlibber miss the point that Tux and I have argued about: just because you CAN get away with harassing someone because they can’t or won’t turn off object entry (or whatever) doesn’t mean it is morally justifiable.”
Not missing it. Ignoring it. Because, well, of course, and it’s beside the point. Any security that assumes it can reliably assess the moral fibre of a person by, say, club memberships or public behaviour is just ASKING to be hosed.
But if you don’t believe me, just ask Kim Phiby. Or what’s-their name, that simply adorable and utterly moral and clearly upright character that walked right into the JLU, smiled winsomely and walked away with the store.
Dear, even if we could actually agree entirely on what “moral behavior” is – and that’s surprisingly difficult – there is no way to read minds. So security has to be set on very conditional trust, and yet it has to do that without being so annoying that it generates reasons to target you all by itself.
Regardless of whether it would be “right” to do that.
Tux
Nov 17th, 2011
@ Paul
‘how come your avatar on these comments identifies you as a member of the “the wrong hands?” oh yeah I forgot, part of your game is plausible deniability lololol’
An image I couldn’t be bothered to change proves affiliation?
Interesting . . .
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
LOL Tux
Thats why your Twitter Icon changes from the TWH logo to the JLU Also your old SL4me blog used the same TWH logo on it. But then now the SL4me blog is gone.
So yea your not a member of TWH we believe you…
paul
Nov 17th, 2011
DeNovo, we covered the moral behavior part and agreed that it is wrong to be a jackass to people who are otherwise minding their own business. Tux says it is ok to be a jackass if you don’t get caught and if it amuses you, and Senban says that maybe being a jackass is one possible way of exploring a new morality available only in virtual worlds.
What are you going on about, about security systems? I can’t be bothered with security systems or security companies (Intlibber ran one? that is awesome!). That ain’t my game. If some griefer were to spam me with particles and prims I would say, “gee what a jackass” and log off and watch T.V. or something. But what he or she does is still wrong.
@Tux
Ohhh you silly person! you are so disaffected and blase’! look at you! changing your avatar randomly, so hip, so cool!…It could never actually mean anything..that would be too earnest, and god forbid that should happen!
DeNovo Broome
Nov 17th, 2011
BTW: In case there’s some question about what game I’m playing – my personal ethos is “And it harm none, do as ye will.”
I’m not here to be a land-baron, because that would not be fun for me. If I change my mind, if I see some way to make that into really good art that is both emotionally and financially rewarding, I will do that. I’d rather pay someone who’s having their own fun than try and do that as a chore I need to do in order to get to the point where I can have MY fun.
I’m here to be creative and I’m used to working in creative communities, so I’m pretty used to sparks and unexpected bangs and sad lapses of taste. None of that bothers me. But spreadsheets make me break out in *hives.* I suck at it and it’s NOT FUN!
Now, frankly, I have better things to do than talk and blog endlessly about grudges between groups that clearly are having way too much fun having grudges, so I’m not here to support woodbury, /b/ or any channish thing. “Not that there’s anything WRONG with that.”
I just don’t find it any more interesting than the JLU’s mission to make all the trains in SL run on time.
I DO object to being told who my friends “really” are by virtue of NOT agreeing with people who think that knowing my IP address is a good way of knowing who I “really” am, or think that I have something I’m embarrassed about because I simply say it’s “none of your business.”
It’s just none of your business, you wouldn’t understand it, and there’s no reason to annoy either of us with pointless explanations. Nor have you any right TO an explanation. Because the reason I don’t talk about those things is that when I log into second life, I’m *not* *doing* *that.*
If I WAS doing that, it would be in my profile.
Meanwhile, this is not World of Warcraft, it is Second Life. There are no victory conditions. It is not a zero sum game. Making me “lose” doesn’t help you win.
But I’m interested in being able to walk around without being spied upon. I deeply resent having to be seriously concerned about that as a non-theoretical issue.
And I’m interested in knowing everything I need to know about the people who think that makes me a “griefer” so that I can avoid contributing to their love of drama.
I dislike being annoyed and griefed as much as the next being. I loathe being poked and pestered and I consider this to not be an argument over whether that’s a reasonable viewpoint, but MUCH more an argument about who has the moral right to impose their view of what grief is on others. Now, actually, I see the merits and the flaws of both “sides,” and I understand the legitimate concerns of both sides – but one side maintains the right to work to exclude and demonize one group of people – and the other is upholding their right to not go gently into that good night.
Jesse Kornbluth got a lot of ink for putting it this way, over in the Real World:
” When I see a policeman with a club beating a man on the ground, I don’t have to ask whose side I’m on.”
You don’t HAVE to play in my fun zone. I probably do not want to play in yours. And really, that should be ok. I support diversity and tolerance with all my heart – but you will not find me at a bollywood film festival and if you hand me a sticky bun, I will not eat it.
But you go right ahead. “Your kink is ok, it’s just not my kink.”
Tux
Nov 17th, 2011
JD, my blog has been gone a while, lol. As has the TWH, TPH and a few other domains. I have pointed them all to a holding page (which I have just changed to make it more appealing to some). Perhaps you like it better?
Paul, it’s not hip or cool, it just is. I had forgot to do it months ago. Mostly because I use different accounts and didn’t need to change them. Although it was obviously important enough for you to mention. And now it goes against your ‘proof’ you have to try and blow it off. Lol.
paul
Nov 17th, 2011
Tux, what proof I am asking for? don’t forget, I could care less who you are or what you do in SL. I am commenting on how you present yourself in this discussion that I have been following. You have worn a “Wrong Hands” avatar since I first started knowing you and while you are advocating for why griefing is a good idea. Then you tell me you are not actually part of the wrong hands. As I have said, I am interested in how people actively manage how they think they are perceived in an internet forum, and this “what, this old thing?” attitude towards your TWH avatar is a new wrinkle and made me chuckle as much as you telling us about valeting your car.
BoiToi Quixote
Nov 17th, 2011
So the Con thing was how long ago? And you are still obsessing over how horrible it was? Who did what, when and how…
The JLU advertise themselves as security experts, at the very least they should have closed any holes. The best defense against griefers is to lock down your land, not to wait for them to grief you then deal with it later.
In the real world, if someone pointed out your security holes you would thank them. hell we used to get t-shirts for finding bugs and vulnerabilities Granted the tactics they used may not have been optimal, but if Robble had walked up to the organizers and said, hey you have this security hole…would they have listened?
Which brings me to my next point. That was then, this is now. I have always been of the opinion that you judge people based on your own experiences. Rarely is someone ALL bad. People grow, they change. They learn more diplomatic ways of dealing with things.
The young boy who used his fists in school may grow up to be the young man who uses his wit and intelligence instead. Life is a journey. Second Life allows us to experiment with things without many of the consequences of RL. We can learn and grow from those experiences.
I don’t condone griefing. i find it annoying. It sounds like much of what happened at the con could have been avoided if people practiced better security. What purpose is served by rehashing it over and over? The question is, did you learn from it? Or will you make the same mistakes?
When you think you have someone pigeon holed, it does you a disservice because you never get to know the real person. You may even like some of these guys.
Senban Babii
Nov 17th, 2011
Come on everyone, we crushed the 600 post barrier last night, snark more! Can we smash through 700 by tonight? I have faith
@Paul
“But both you and Intlibber miss the point that Tux and I have argued about: just because you CAN get away with harassing someone because they can’t or won’t turn off object entry (or whatever) doesn’t mean it is morally justifiable.”
Okay let’s get hypothetical and analogous and stuff.
I have a house. I’m also a nice person who wants to see the good in everyone. When I left the house to drive to work this morning I left my doors unlocked. But it’s perfectly fine because it would be morally unjustifiable for someone to enter my house, move things around, eat my food and steal things. Right?
Here’s comes Ratboy, the local chav. Rattling doorknobs to see if anyone has left their door open or a key under a plantpot. Bingo! Ratboy is now in my house. He robs me blind, daubs human excremental art on the walls and generally acts in morally unjustifiable ways.
I arrive home, get a nasty shock and call the police. The first thing the police will want to know is how Ratboy gained entry. “Oh I never lock my doors officer because no one would do anything morally unjustifiable”. At which point the policeman closes his notebook and says “good luck explaining that one to your insurance company” as he walks out of the door.
There will always be foxes sniffing round the chicken coop, there will always be Ratboys rattling doorknobs. Anyone who willfully leaves themselves unprotected and then pisses and moans that their chickens were killed or their prim was sent into space or that they were robbed has no one but themselves to blame. I’m not justifying behaviour but I am pointing out that the victim became a victim because they refuse to accept the facts of reality and protect themselves in the first place.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
Senban Babii
See you also miss the point that there are someplaces in the world that people still leave their doors unlocked. don’t forget years ago in the United states many people never locked their homes up tight.
My Inlaws live in a town on the main street, My father inlaw was the firemarshal of the town. Everyone one in the town pretty much knows everyone, so they leave their doors unlocked all the time.
It all depends on where you live and how you were raised.
So the fact that at the IFT con people like Tizzers and chuckles Intlibber who has a huge issue against the JLU. Used the trust of a group to grief the rest of the members. The IFT group felt that the people being invited to the group were going to build stuff for the Bronies sim. Not turn around and grief others at the sim.
Its the childish anticts of some cry babies who decided to turn around and harrass others. This is not pushing a new moral objective or testing it. It is just being mean to be mean.
I mean if you read Tizzers and Tux’s Twitters these 2 are obsessed with Prok and the JLU. They seem to hate Secondlife so much yet they keep coming back in. If you dislike something so much why keep sneaking back in to be a jerk?
Senban Babii
Nov 17th, 2011
@James Doe
“Everyone one in the town pretty much knows everyone, so they leave their doors unlocked all the time.”
Halcyon days, idyllic, a marvellous image of fifties Americana perhaps?
“It all depends on where you live and how you were raised.”
You’re absolutely correct! There are places in the world where vestiges of that fifties Americana still endure just as there are places in the world where people think it only existed in Bedford Falls (I’m sure you get the reference?)
So the question we now have to address is “what is the situation in Second Life?” Because that’s the only place that’s actually key to the discussion.
Is Second Life actually Better Than Life and we’re all living in a simulation of Bedford Falls? – I hope that there are at least some Red Dwarf fans reading this or my analogy falls flat.
Or is Second Life actually a less than idyllic environment where we actually do have to lock our doors and where the neighbours don’t appreciate us running down a snowy street shouting Merry Christmas at everyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrmUipa1kc4
As much as people might wish it were the former, the truth is that it’s closer to the latter and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply living in denial.
In fact for those who’ve never read the books, I strongly suggest reading the first two Red Dwarf novels “Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers” and “Better Than Life”. The first one because it’s a work of comic genius and the second one because it looks at the artificial world Better Than Life and how Lister’s virtual life is to live in the movie It’s A Wonderful Life and Rimmer’s virtual life is to destroy everything he comes into contact with because of his own self-loathing. Personally I thought the Cat had it right though with his virtual life but then I’d obviously side with the neko
Seriously though, good books with insights into shared virtual realities that went far deeper than the TV episode that covered that part of the story.
Senban Babii
Nov 17th, 2011
Incidentally, this was the Cat’s virtual life.
“The Danish government gives Cat an island, on which is built a giant golden castle, right out of a gothic fairy tale. The castle is surrounded by a moat of milk, and is staffed by 8-foot-tall (2.4 m), scantily clad Valkyrie warriors. He likes to travel on firebreathing yaks and shoot dogs.”
Leave it to the neko to get virtual reality right
Jumpman Lane
Nov 17th, 2011
Does ANYBODY werk for The Herald no more! Lmao!
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
Here is the thing
I believe that a person can not really separate themselves completely from their real life in secondlife. When you come into second life you are a person behind a screen. You are not testing new morals in a virtual world. If you grief people and make fun of them in SL you are the type of person to do the same thing in real life.
People explore a pseudo side of sexual rp in a fantasy world. Playing BDSM in second life is not the same as real life. Its safer in Secondlife. Just like people rp rape or any other kink its safe. In real life I would think many of these people have these fantasies and in sl they are allowed to express it. Its human urges. (not trying to get off the subject here)
So if a person in second life doesn’t lock their land down because they feel that they can trust people and believe the majority of people to respect you.
See most people in second life are respectful of each other. It’s this small minority like certain members of Woodbury or TWH and the JLU who are not trust worthy and have no respect for other people in secondlife. These people are the ones that push certain people to security devices like Redzone, Voodoo, Phantom Zone Ban-links. In this day and age people want something to do the work for them. So TWH comes and griefs a sim. The kick and ban them these same person gets griefed day in and day out by alts of the people getting around the SL ban and Region bans. So then they go to the market place and see a product that will Identify alts and help keep people out.
So then these devices are created because of the childish antics of the griefers.
Is Alt detection and IP tracking flawed “yes” but when SL can’t keep the people that have been banned from SL out. Other People want something that will protect them. Sl has failed to keep banned residents out effectively.
Lets be realistic, everyone yells they want to ban Prok or the JLU yet its been shown that many of the same people who yell for their removal are the same people who have come back into sl after having been booted by SL. Do you really think that you will get rid of the JLU and Prok if these people can keep coming back in as well?
Yes we play in a virtual world where we can be and do what we want. But as human beings we should also be respectful of others.
Griefers do not have respect for other people.
Tux is an example of one such person who has no respect for people. Unless they get his joking around. This is evident by how is videos make fun of others.
The more you look into these people talking out against the JLU the more you see why the JLU is doing what they do. You look around and see these people breaking the same magic circle as the JLU. Some of these people have posted on their blogs home addresses of the JLU members and at one time Intlibber was a JLU member from what I saw. Since “thelist” has his home address listed on their site as well under the JLU heading.
See you have these groups all doing the same thing, to each other.
Have we heard any new Info about the JLU? Have we seen any new logs besides chats?
I see on SLU someone is playing that they are a JLU member posting in someone’s blog which I really doubt it is a member of the JLU. The thread on the SLU forum is dead. WHY? Because people gave up and nothing new is being discovered. We aren’t being shown the whole truth; the Logs are being picked out and chosen by one person instead of posting it all for everyone to see.
Also this minority raging against the JLU are just as bad as them.
Tux
Nov 17th, 2011
@Senban – U=BTL
@Paul
‘Tux, what proof I am asking for?’
I never said you are asking for proof, I said:
‘And now it goes against your ‘proof’ you have to try and blow it off. Lol.’
This was in response to your comment:
‘your avatar on these comments identifies you as a member of the “the wrong hands’
Please try to keep up.
Dontspill McGinnis
Nov 17th, 2011
@ James Doe
I am not a member of TWH, though am now a friend to many. Neither are the vast majority of the people who were complaining about the appalling behaviour of the JLU on the SLU blogs.
I am labelled “griefer” by the JLU not because I grief, but because I have always been outspoken against the JLU and their methods. Up til this moment, they have never had cause to abuse report me, thats how bad a griefer I am. My Girlfriend, whom no member of the JLU has even met, is labelled griefer simply because she is my girlfriend. You see where this is going?
Tell me again how such things as Phantom zone are a good idea and how only griefers complain about the JLU, Hmm?
paul
Nov 17th, 2011
@Tux. lol ok, I conceded the point. silly me. I meet a person who wears the uniform of a group for the entire six months or whatever i have known him. He also argues in favor of the group on a regular basis, and then, suddenly, announces that he is not associated with the group, and when I see “gee I thought you were in the group because you wore their uniform and argued on their behalf” he says LOL see how dumb you are? lolololol you are a piece of work Tux. Once again, impression management in online forums is interesting.
@Senban. Your analogy is fine except for one thing: The ratboy or the fox or whatever has to admit that they are rats and thieves who are victimizing people. And do not tell me that a fox has to eat, because that is the point where your analogy breaks down. A human chooses to be a jackass to another person.
Senban Babii
Nov 17th, 2011
@Tux
“U=BTL”
Ahh I see we have at least one person of excellent taste here
@James Doe
“See most people in second life are respectful of each other. It’s this small minority like certain members of Woodbury or TWH and the JLU who are not trust worthy and have no respect for other people in secondlife.”
James I obviously can’t speak for your experiences or anyone else’s for that matter. But this was almost never my experience of SL. The majority of my time was huge swathes of drama as people stabbed each other in the back, gossiped, tried to put one over on their enemies and generally bitched. And to forestall your question, no, this was not because I hung out with griefers. This was at infohubs. In fact the few people I’ve ever known who others would attempt to classify as griefers were actually some of the most laid back and easy going people I ever met in SL. The real griefers from my own personal experience were simply ordinary people who were playing some kind of pseudo soap opera where everything was about generating drama and being seen as socially more important than other people. Those people would seek every possible opportunity to gossip and generate drama as a weapon against other people. Prok is one of these as it happens. But when a game’s success capital is measured in subjective social standing, this kind of behaviour is to be expected.
“These people are the ones that push certain people to security devices like Redzone, Voodoo, Phantom Zone Ban-links.”
Really? I thought those devices were created ostensibly to fight copybotting, not griefers? The one is not necessarily the other
“Lets be realistic, everyone yells they want to ban Prok”
“Ban Prok” is little more than a meme, I wouldn’t necessarily take it too seriously in itself.
“or the JLU yet its been shown that many of the same people who yell for their removal are the same people who have come back into sl after having been booted by SL.”
Well let’s not forget the history of the Herald here. The Herald was born in TSO and with Uri being banned for exposing EA’s questionable practices. Uri himself used various alts supplied by other players so he could get back in so as to continue investigating and exposing the problems of groups like the Sim Shadow Government (who have amazing similarities to the JLU, suspicious eh?) so in fact I think that certain people are actually acting within the best traditions of the Herald when they find ways to sneak back in so as to expose the JLU and similar groups.
Senban Babii
Nov 17th, 2011
@Paul
“And do not tell me that a fox has to eat, because that is the point where your analogy breaks down.”
Only because no analogy survives extended analysis. Because you’ve tried to do so, you’ve missed the point as always. Never mind.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Dontspill
Did you not read?
I never said these devices were good did I?
I just explained why they were created and around.
Ok so you’re listed as a griefer by the JLU. If your not what is the big deal about being listed as something your not? Does it affect your second life or real life so much that someone has labeled you as something your not? People do this everyday in SL and RL. In sl people look at peoples Profiles and see a group for furries and that person is labeled a fur “dork” (yes changed the term people use) we are always labeling people is it right no but it is everyday life.
I do not really see a vast majority anymore complaining about the JLU anymore. Many of the people have moved on with their lives.
Robble "little hitler" Rubble
Nov 17th, 2011
@everyone bitching about the con
I’ll only say this once. The con was raided in response to the JLU’s repeated raids of our former sims, revolution and red square. The fact of the matter is that we wouldn’t have bothered attacking if we weren’t being provoked. The con was a chance for us to show a large crowd of people just how terrible the JLU are at sim security. It was in response to the JLU’s repeated raids of our sandbox. Not poking the hornet’s nest with a sharp stick isn’t that difficult of a concept to grasp is it?
Since the JLU choose to keep their own sims locked down the only reliable way for us to respond to their attacks is when they are in a nice public space.
@intblubber
The Wrong Hands had nothing to do with redzone, we sat that one out mostly.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Robble
Thank you for admitting you brought your little childish war to the IFT con. To try to make the JLU look bad. See you are a bunch of idiots because the JLU wasn’t in charge of security. GLE was part of the cons security team but he was for several years. But you had many other people from other second life Scifi rp sims trying to help out.
Next time might want to understand the cons community better. You all just made your selves look like a bunch of immature jerks to the rest of the scifi community.
Robble Rubble
Nov 17th, 2011
@James Doe
Eat a dick Cathiee McMillian.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Robble
So now I am Cathiee McMillan?
First I am Prokofy, and then I am some JLU member the next time.
Who will I be next week Jumpman or some other person?
Please feel free to keep guessing on who I am. It’s amusing to watch you try.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
“Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
Wow I am now being Moderated I guess afraid I am gonna start a flame war with Robble.
This is ammusing
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Robble
So now I am Cathiee McMillan?
First I am Prokofy, and then I am some JLU member the next time.
Who will I be next week?
Please feel free to keep guessing on who I am. It’s amusing to watch you try.
Paul
Nov 17th, 2011
No no! I am the one who is Prok, no kalel, no GLE… it isn’t James Doe who is those people!!! Maybe we are BOTH Prok! maybe I am a member of the Wrong Hands! Maybe I am not! oooOOOOoooo maybe I am really Tux! you never know in the new morality!
Robble Rubble
Nov 17th, 2011
@James Doe
Actually, it’s because you are making the exact same argument with eerily similar wording over on Potosi’s blog.
Edna
Nov 17th, 2011
Using an electric motor from a 1968 Singer sewing machine and the generator from a 1970′s era Honda enduro, I have proven the theory of perpetual motion. Just want to let people know.
Robble Rubble
Nov 17th, 2011
@Cathiee
“See you are a bunch of idiots because the JLU wasn’t in charge of security.”
You’re contradicting yourself, weren’t you claiming in the beginning of this thread that the JLU were doing security for the con. Or have you been waiting for weeks to pull off some lame “gotcha” moment?
Paul
Nov 17th, 2011
Rubble,
All of you guys do nothing but play ‘gotcha’ while obsessing over each other’s identity, so once again, be careful with that rock around a glass house.
all the best,
-Prok
Robble "Little Hitler" Rubble
Nov 17th, 2011
@Paul
I have never called you Prok, you are definitely no Prok. She always comes up with nice little rhymes about my name when she yells about how I’m the worst person ever and blah blah blah blah technocommunists
Dontspill McGinnis
Nov 17th, 2011
@ James Doe
“Ok so you’re listed as a griefer by the JLU. If your not what is the big deal about being listed as something your not? Does it affect your second life or real life so much that someone has labeled you as something your not?”
The “Big Deal” is that anywhere that is stupid enough to deploy Phantom Zone will be excluding my Girlfriend and myself, along with any other people unfortunate enough to have been fraudulently labelled.
And yes, it can affect someone’s second life, or indeed real life as the JLU like to delve into that so readily. It’s like with anything, sling enough mud, some of it sticks. Being labelled a griefer can turn someone into a social pariah in some second life circles.
Are you telling me that you would simply not care, and shrug off any persistent accusations of your being a paedophile in either second or real life?
I thought not.
I know it’s hard, but please do just try to engage your brain before opening your mouth occasionally.
Senban Babii
Nov 17th, 2011
@Paul
“-Prok”
What, you’re the negatively charged Prok? The Anti-Prok? If you come into contact with +Prok will you annihilate each other?
Just curious is all.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Robble
Ok so someone else has similar views as me, or me them and that makes us the same person?
Why you are such a Sherlock Holmes aren’t you? Think you should go back give back your Jr. Detective Ring to the “Cracker Jack box. They want to hand it to another child who will use it better.
You’re starting to sound like Prokofy and the JLU accusing people of being someone else. Aren’t you the one of the ones who laughs at all of the JLU’s missed matches on player’s alts?
I guess you are becoming that which you hate.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Dontspill
Ok so a place as the phantom zone deployed in the sim.
Would you really want to go to that sim?
Let’s say you’re not listed as a griefer and you know the PZ is in the sim would you go to it? Or would you avoid it.
Ok you all like to bring up this pedophile issues. This is not the same as being called a griefer that is not an apple to apple comparison. One is against the real Law. Other is against the TOS/CS of secondlife.
It’s like someone saying I am a f’n trekie. Well sure they can call me that but I am mature enough to go yea what ever. Kick /Ban you’re out of my sim. My friends and others I associate with know who I am. I don’t care what others who I may never run into think about me.
Yes to some circles you being listed as a griefer can be harmful but do you want to associate with those groups? But I believe most people in secondlife will not always listen to others. I believe many people make their own judgment based on your actions with them.
Again I am not in favor of ban-link systems. I believe they are for lazy sim owners.
How many places is the PZ deployed?
How many places you go to that this system affects you?
Bunjie
Nov 17th, 2011
@James Doe
“Lets be realistic, everyone yells they want to ban Prok or the JLU yet its been shown that many of the same people who yell for their removal are the same people who have come back into sl after having been booted by SL. Do you really think that you will get rid of the JLU and Prok if these people can keep coming back in as well?”
I’m nearly always realistic, “Lets be realistic” sounds like a parroting of what I’ve said on the JLU privacy threads so either we’re on the same wave length or maybe I got through to you subconsciously about being realistic, but the possibility is to me it looks like you’ve just copy & pasta my arguments from the JLU privacy thread as if they’re generically yours, doing this in order to score a point is a little low but I don’t mind if you learned something like copy & pasta.
nomnom nom nom nom I’ll eat your words and I’ll shit them back out at ya, doesn’t take much effort but if you can’t back up the context with a solution or understand the wider implications, well you’ve learned nothing and it becomes easy to spot that they’re not your real opinions and not something you’ve put deep thought into
AS you profess they do come back you still don’t acknowledge that even perma-banned residents are still residents, just take a look at the third part of “perma banned resident”, might not be active inSL but is still active within the wider social community, therefor harassing and branding them based on falsified information by a 3rd party or taking in acknowledgement of their given reputation by the JLU as if it’s true and as if they’re not part of the platform or should not hold an opinion is ridiculous, the fact is they’re still engaged with the platform and should be treated with basic respect or it is in poor taste for a debate.
The JLU are proof that this a wide reaching social platform that extends deeper into the internet and RL than you’d have given credit and has implications for false accusations, they’re still residents but in a bracket they didn’t put themselves in at the beginning other than accepting responsibility for their actions and opinions while taking part in their democratic human right of speaking out on issues and razing awareness for the greater community to acknowledge, and it’s a cheap and dirty tactic to insist that because a 3rd party said something or painted it as such via propaganda it must be true or not understand why things happen from both sides and never acknowledge that the TOS can be interpreted as something the JLU and Prokofy break just by antagonizing another resident to attack them, even via a blog that is linked to the social platform of their choice.
The problem is the JLU and Prokofy wont let things go for various reasons and won’t change their tactics (MO) without great effort of a 3rd party to get the community engaged in telling them it’s wrong and not something we should lay down and take as a whole, and I do feel if you don’t go shitting on other residents like WU by venturing into their paid for land and assaulting them with abuse reports to get rid of their paid for right to express themselves and their opinions within it, they’d have not have been known half as much as they are to this day as they’d impact a minor % of SL and there would be no need for them to point out that others are miss using the service and abusing them.
Though the PN did have a base on WU at some point this was I believe in reaction to the fact Kalel would not deal with Tizzers to defuse the situation just like Prokofy would not make amends with Tizzers when Tiz tried to talk to her about it recently, she continues to accuse them of harassment that an unknown 3rd party causes and this is causing the problem that makes her a fuse sitting on a social time bomb.
I’m starting to think you’re just the worse kind of resident like Kalel, Prokofy and Desmond who came into the JLU privacy thread accusing others of thing’s they’d not done and that a 3rd party was active in at that time, just because of bigotry and miss understanding of who residents really are and how little they effect you until you shit on them or do something that ruins the whole social fabric of the Second Life community.
You really should have a deeper understanding of cause and effect and Linden Lab needs too apply the “magic circle rule” therefor anyone who reports another resident, the Policy of that Land owner should be taken into consideration within the context of the investigation, so that residents who go into someone elses experience either by force or via unwanted attention on alts can’t push them out of it because it’s not their cup of tea.
To break that down, Land owners rights aka what’s displayed on their estate policy’s should semi override the TOS as Linden Lab does allow estates to receive / redirect abuse reports to their email address and not to Linden Labs abuse report team via the email you’re allowed to put in the estate tools, so if being talked shit too or some kinda bondage or such that would in a normal setting be constituted as abuse, is regarded as a false report and not allowed to be accepted as such out of context, even if it’s reported from another sim or mainland like the JLU do when they go there to send in bulk ar’s.
This is common knowledge to not take everything at face value and look deeper at the context but like with Plexus, Linden Lab does not seem to be able to understand what’s going on, just like Soft seems to think SL is the matrix they’ve lost the plot and are running on a traffic light system where it’s red, yellow or green and without context of looking both ways before crossing even when someone is giving out a green light and a drunk driver might run that light or an ambulance or other real emergency service need to go through it.
The JLU are not an emergency service or public service and from the chat log’s and JLU wiki it appears that Plexus and other ex-Lindens have treated them as such and allowed them to run those red lights where as other residents would be banned on sight.
Also what’s really going on is they’re being forced into allegedly breaking the TOS by the JLU, this should be a TOS violation to antagonize another resident into attacking you to remove them from the platform regardless of who it is or what you think they do or might do. The JLU attack them in order to remove their place of expression and voice from the dynamic of a very large and distributed community it’s is the wrong approach to dealing with issues and anyway when it’s really broken down the JLU are always in the wrong as would be any other resident who gave someone an object to wear that turned out not to be a watch and crash a sim.
If you don’t back your statements up with an active or inactive profile for what you allege is so you don’t get attacked then your words and opinions wont be as far reaching, and as you’re currently either miss perceived or miss represented as an anonymous idiot or JLU sock puppet in other residents eyes, so you’re loosing out even though you profess it’s for your own safety, though as you very well know alts are an accepted part of this social dynamic and the way the JLU use the service to remove other residents.
You could have gone to the effort to set one up just to have a paper trail so we can understand you and see if such residents who you claim will harass you do or not without having the full fallout of using your primary account.
To do neither and expect residents to trust your opinion is backed up with the social experience and deep understanding of the platform is far shy of what we expect.
You do us a great social disservice to expect to have an opinion through a social platform that requires a standard of base profile to give us something to understand your motivations and point of view, so if you want to be treated a little better I suggest you point us at an isolated alt so we can see where you’re coming from within this one sided illusionist propaganda.
I like upfront residents, but I don’t want to know everything about everyone like the JLU do, I like with anyone engaging in a social debate require a little less anonymous and a little more SL account which is still anonymous but gives me something to look at other than the fact you’re being a no one. Although I do respect your right to have an opinion without being attacked for it, I do feel you’ve lost the point of what SL is and why we’re engaged in taking with you even though we should really have just ignored you as you’ve not proved yourself to be anyone or anything related to what you express you have this opinion about.
So would you mind giving us some rope? because I’d also be curious to see if anonymous residents do attack you like you’re attacking these none anonymous ex- and current residents for what they say while you’re being anonymous, also because I don’t hear a peep out of anyone in world about what I say on here or on other websites I don’t believe you need to hide, and Prokofy is not an excuse because she’s made her self a prime target over a period of 4-5 years like the JLU do vs you just wanting to talk to us on here and express your point of view.
Words and opinions should be scrutinized as much as the account providing them, as should mine and as you’ve done to TUX and TWH and everyone else here without giving anything in return you’re a coward and I despise your method of message delivery in this context, you’re not anonymous fighting corporations you’re engaging with us in a social platform and a debate about what’s acceptable within it, but I have to draw the line at hiding who you are as if you have this strong of an opinion and this wish to engage with us towards a resolution you should not need too.
You and others who without really expressing who you are, who hide like cowards but expect opinions that wish to change the dynamic of an on going situation profess that TWH or anyone else in TPH who are leading the platform towards a social resolution is a miss guided policy and will end in failure, yet you engage in a worse tactic of not backing your attacks up with a substantial account that shows you understand what’s really going on, and this under laying message of you not really wanting to take part in a solution due to not liking the bringer of the message is an horrendous point of view.
Even if you’re the JLU or Prokofy or Cathiee McMillian we do want too engage with you but you need to be open and willing to bend on issues as evidence arises that challenges your point of view.
Your bigotry and hiding is far more of a distasteful message bringing tactic than someone who stands up for the issue and admits they’ve made mistakes but are willing to be a part of or lead the solution, and the fact they’re allegedly banned from SL and allegedly leading this should not be seen as a weakness in the argument or fight. I believe if what you say is true then it’s a strong group from which some member’s have experiences of Second Life they can 100% back up with where they came from and so can understand and express to others their point of view.
So without giving us anything back to base an opinion of you on I don’t believe you know anything about this issue other than what a 3rd party tells you, it would be nice if you had the courage to put forth yourself a bit as I’m sure you perhaps just miss understand TUX’s perspective of how little he gives a shit about you, though he is willing to put himself forth to discuss with you here although he can like anyone be a jerk and as this place is more so tailgated into insults and bawww fests than resolutions we have to accept some like me will engage in shouting back when debates get a little wild.
But if you want to take part, take part in the resolution and not the bigotry and anonymous attacks because of where the message comes from, because anything less than saying this is who I am and what I’ve experienced is not helping you get your argument across regardless of the bawww fest.
If you remember the JLU privacy thread I was the most vocal about not banning either the JLU, WU, TWH and other such residents, in fact I believe they’re all still classed as residents even without an active account as because like you said they just keep coming back and such residents will never go away, you can’t silence someone on a social platform just by banning accounts, you have to be proactive in resolving issues with open debates not writing abuse reports so you can silence a critic of your own actions, and so for everyone’s benefit these long term bawwww fests don’t continue as it degrades the social fabric of Second Life.
The real greifers do go away when they get bored and the fact all the other alleged greifers are still engaged with the platform and other residents that are in “good standing with LL” through other platforms that Second Life reaches into I don’t feel that you understand enough to continue this little bawww fest you have going.
And then you and others say Prokofy is just too open and trusting of other residents and everyone is like this, I don’t know what side of the bed you woke up on but it’s not the side everyone else who stands up and engages with this platform has learned.
Prokofy does not trust anyone, it’s evident from her own blog and the thousands of altercations where she accuses someone of being someone else or what ever but still leaves her group open.
Prokofy is all about getting traffic, where as others invested in camping machines and real entertainment experiences that keep residents around on the land, she chooses griefing to raze up her land metrics and search place so she could with 2 sides say her land is popular and that everyone knows it, (due to griefing and her bawwwing about it).
As some types of residents don’t care about being griefed, to them it’s a part of “the cost of doing business” as is for some being copy exploited it’s a bad thing they accept because they just want to make some sales, and Prokofy makes the drama for them to get noticed, those residents are willing to put themselves forward in the most difficult of social circumstances, and while I think those who rent from Prokofy are two cents short of a packet of bacon I’m still puzzled why they can put themselves forth into that situation yet you’re not will too be more than anonymous.
So, who’s the real coward? and who has a real demonstrable experience of this platform and is willing to show for the benefit of resolving a situation and helping others regardless of what they’re accused of? You? don’t make me laugh or I’m transform into Judge Joker and no one really want’s that other than Kalel to fluff is ego with a new challenger.
Tux
Nov 17th, 2011
JD, unlike others I don’t care who you are. You are quite entertaining, with your yes man paul (notice the lowercase p? Because he seems unable to make up his mind how to write his name). You have zero effect on my Second Life (note the spelling and format?), for I could be virtually standing right next to you chuckling to myself.
I am not blocked, banned or bothered by the JLU. The same can be said for the Lindens (unless one pops in to say Hi!). So all of this is simply entertainment.
But I would think Pix would like to thank you for keeping this a hot topic. All three of you.
And I am missing the crazy RL comparisons you put out there. Surely you can think of something wonderful, just for me.
Senban, RD is one of the all time greats. Sadly it is beyond many peoples simple understanding!
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
@Bunjie
So yet another person wanting to have me Identify who I am.
I have already provided you with the information in the past. You all failed to see it. I am not going to hold your hand.
So I am a Bigot now too thank you..
Well to inform you as well you are by definition one as well.
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animositytoward those of differing beliefs.
James Doe
Nov 17th, 2011
LOL Tux,
I have read all the RD novels and seen the show and own the role-playing game so yes I got the references.
But then I preferred Lexx over Red Dwarf.
Tux
Nov 17th, 2011
Lexx was good, but not a patch on RD smeg head!
Dontspill McGinnis
Nov 17th, 2011
@ James Doe
You asked how being falsely accused could adversely affect a persons second and / or real life, and i gave some indication of how that could be. It’s as simple as that.
If you are trying to say being falsely accused of being a griefer by the JLU is in fact, no big deal, then I suggest you go back and read how you yourself, and paul (and possibly others) have described people you believe to be griefers in this comments section.
You can’t have it all ways. What they are doing is called slander.
As to what sort of places might employ Phantom Zone, I don’t know. I would hope the recent publicity will have informed people as to the underhand nature of the device and it’s creators.
It is quite obvious, even from these pages that there are many people out there with little knowledge of basic Second Life security, that might be stupid enough to call in the dubious talents of the JLU for security.
It is surprising how many such people there are out there.
Reader
Nov 17th, 2011
@Bunjie
Say wut? Walls of text like Prok much? You OK with that hypocrite?
(no need to respond – that was rhetorical..)
Too much serious business from the looks of it. So much so you uniquely qualify as the prime candidate for an updated definition of “serious business” on the pages of Encylopedia Dramatica.
Go work on that idiot
And whilst you’re at it, lose the fur.
Reader
Nov 17th, 2011
@ Spill
stfu Mies
Paul
Nov 17th, 2011
Tux,
I change the case of Paul, paul? could it be because I made up “paul’ for this forum? I think is started as “james’ or something equally random, months ago.
all the best,
-Kalel (not a member of the JLU)
GG3
Nov 18th, 2011
The world keeps turning and the JLU keep lurchin.